GUINNESS PRO 12 - Preview courtesy of Planet Rugby

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3551_9451543,00.html

In a nutshell

1 – Leinster
2 - Glasgow
3 - Blues
4 - Munster
5 - Ulster
6 - Scarlets
7 - Ospreys
8 - Dragons
9 – Edinburgh
10 -Connacht
11 - Zebre
12 – Benetton Treviso

I read in the Sunday Times (can’t post a link as I don’t subscribe to the online edition) they had the Ospreys as 10th. Long season ahead I think  

ESPN had Leinster beating Munster in the final, with two home wins in the semis. It's always good when journalists are willing to stick their necks out...

(not that I disagree massively)

I don't see Ulster missing the Top 4.

It all seems to be predicated on the players leaving, but Tom Court was struggling to keep his place as first choice under pressure from Black and Warwick, John Afoa was only marking his time until he left and missed many crucial games either through injury or just being absent from the country altogether (which didn't endear him too his teammates), Paddy Wallace and Stephen Ferris had less than five appearances between them in which they were clearly unable to play to their potential due to injury.

Johann Muller is the biggest loss in terms of having an obvious leader who is available all year round, but he was in and out of the team due to a succession of injuries and clearly not the same player he was in his first three years. His body had just given up.

On top of that, we have signed intelligently and now have more depth at tight head, out half, and full back- problem positions for us in the past. Our signings look good already, especially the South African trio of Herbst, van der Merwe and Ludik.

The biggest plus of all for Ulster this season compared to last season is that instead of having to wait out Anscombes contract to expire we can move on immediately. I'm pretty frustrated that he was given that extension in the first place- if you look at Munster they had an almost identical situation with Rob Penney, where he was doing ok but wasn't able to take the team onto the next level and his methods clashed with senior players. He was able to move on with his head held high. Anscombe should have had the same treatment- thanks for your hard work, we are going in a different direction. Instead the blunder was made to extend his contract and then Humphreys, having been at least partially responsible for that blunder, fecked off himself.

The difference between a Feck Off and a Polite Feck Off is massive, and Ulster shambolically backed themselves into a corner where they had to give the FO to Anscombe compared to the PFO we should have issued. If Humphreys hadn't left and we still had Anscombe we'd have a difficulty of going into a new season with a coach who the players don't respect or rate, which would curb my optimism for the season ahead a lot.

Whats most encouraging about all of this for Ulster is we have ended the policy of going cheap on the coaches and expensive on the squad. We went for McLaughlin because he was the cheap option and he did well, but he wasn't one of the elite coaches in world rugby who can mastermind the kind of revival Schmidt had at Leinster. We then compounded the error by going for Anscombe, who also took the team on but had exactly the same problem as McLaughlin- able to get the players to perform all season but never able to get that extra 1% in the big games thats the difference between champions and also rans.

Instead we have Les Kiss, which I hope is a major step-up in terms of detail. The highest level McLaughlin had coached at was Schools rugby before starting at Ulster. The highest level Anscombe had coached at was ITM Cup in New Zealand. What we need is a coach who has worked at test level and knows how to function at the very highest level of the game, in games which are must-win every week.

Regardless of whether Kiss is permanent or is replaced with someone of similar stature I think we've probably found the missing ingredient in terms of challenging for trophies thats been missing- if we can keep our first choice pack fit and healthy. The depth in the back row is really the biggest potential obstacle.

ABSOLUTELY 100% CORRECT NOTCH.

I am not even going to try to add to that.

Rob Penney was offered a contract extension with Munster. He decided to take a very lucractive offer in Japan.

Edit: and it was Michael Cheika who brought the initial success to Leinster, not Schmidt. Cheika had very limited coaching experience before taking on Leinster. Cheika brought that tough edge to Leinster that they needed. In fairness to the Leinster blazers, they backed him and gave him the 3 years to get there.

Penney was offered a contract extension but only a relatively short extension if I remember (it seemed like a 1 year contract with a view to Foley being ready to take over the following year - Penney didn't feel comfortable staying on in that situation).

Cheika gave Leinster the initial success. And I'd give a lot of credit to Jonno Gibbes (now at Clermont) for pulling some steel into that pack of forwards. He also benefitted from Cullen and Jennings returning from forwards academy (Tiger school). When Joe came in, the ground work Cheika did was invaluable to him and shouldn't be under estimated. Joe gave them a bit of attacking flair though.

With Joe going, the blazers possibly thought Leinster risked going soft again (but is MOC the answer?). Strange to think a pro12 title and I still ain't sure on MOC as a coach but is he benefitting from a combination of great structures in the first team and also that his depth is supplemented by Girvan et al producing quality youngsters to stick into the senior side when needed?

Absolutely SPOT ON predictions from Planet Rugby at this point in the season (ie, before a tip tackle has been executed in anger!!)

As for the rest of the season - who the F**k knows. Sticking your neck out this early is well in time to have you stuffed and seasoned for Christmas dinner.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Penney was offered a contract extension but only a relatively short extension if I remember (it seemed like a 1 year contract with a view to Foley being ready to take over the following year - Penney didn't feel comfortable staying on in that situation).

Relative to what? He was offered a 1 year extension, he was going to take it and then he was offered 3 years in Japan which would set him up for life and he decided to leave. It also suited him time wise because of his kids education (I think one of his sons was about to start university and the other was after doing his Junior Cert).

Cheika gave Leinster the initial success.  And I'd give a lot of credit to Jonno Gibbes (now at Clermont) for pulling some steel into that pack of forwards. He also benefitted from Cullen and Jennings returning from forwards academy (Tiger school).  When Joe came in, the ground work Cheika did was invaluable to him and shouldn't be under estimated.  Joe gave them a bit of attacking flair though.

Cheika recruited Gibbes and brought back Cullen & Jennings? Leinster were playing some fabulous rugby with Cheika (i.e., Toulouse v Leinster in 2006). It just wasn't winning rugby. Cheika thought them how to win ugly and to hang around even when the going got difficult.

With Joe going, the blazers possibly thought Leinster risked going soft again (but is MOC the answer?). Strange to think a pro12 title and I still ain't sure on MOC as a coach but is he benefitting from a combination of great structures in the first team and also that his depth is supplemented by Girvan et al producing quality youngsters to stick into the senior side when needed?

Didn't Schmidt have a large say in the recruitment of his successor. Maybe he was worried about them going soft and not the blazers!

Not sure the Blues will be that high. If we get a few injuries we don't really have the depth to fill the void.

I see Ospreys Captain Alun Wyn Jones is out of their opening game with Treviso as he needs a 'REST'!

I expect the Blues to do better than they have done in the previous few seasons, but maybe not 3rd, this is a relatively new squad and coaching setup and will need time to gel.

Scrumpy wrote:I see Ospreys Captain Alun Wyn Jones is out of their opening game with Treviso as he needs a 'REST'!

Apparently, "There's a World Cup around the corner," said Rees.

All the nonsense re Cardiff not playing Sam central and then the Os rest their frigging captain for the league opener. Incredible.

You couldn't make this **** up!

Scrumpy wrote:You couldn't make this **** up!

Why not?

Likely to be rested on the other side of the Irish sea for at least Round 1 are; Jack McGrath, Rory Best, Iain Henderson, Paul O'Connell, Devin Toner, Chris Henry, Jamie Heaslip, Rhys Ruddock, Conor Murray, Eoin Reddan, Gordon D'Arcy, Darren Cave, Andrew Trimble, Tommy Bowe, Simon Zebo, Rob Kearney and maybe one or two not listed here.

I have no problem with it. Giving them all an extra month off before starting pre-season means they get the same amount of rest as all the guys who didn't go on the tour got and they'll be back and most importantly fresh for Round 3.

You might laugh now but you'll be laughing on the other side of your face if we win the Six Nations again and the teams that are missing these players end up in the playoffs again anyway

It's not a good advert for the league, no wonder they struggled to find a sponsor for it.

“What kind of a message does this send out to all the fans and all the young kids who want to watch their heroes play here in Wales.” - See more at: http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/featured-post/13423/wru-will-move-their-op-stars-to-england/#sthash.Vpta7ozc.dpuf

Agreed this doesn't send the right message, but it's smart from the O's as they probably don't need him to beat Treviso at home. There is no words to describe how much i would like Treviso to kick their a**e though!

I agree with you Cardiff Dave.

I really want to love the Pro12 but when I see headlines like AWJ not playing as he needs a 'rest' and fans like Notch who are happy that their big names (home grown players) are not playing it makes me cringe.

Scrumpy wrote:I agree with you Cardiff Dave.

I really want to love the Pro12 but when I see headlines like AWJ not playing as he needs a 'rest' and fans like Notch who are happy that their big names (home grown players) are not playing it makes me cringe.

Massive own goal by the Os if you ask me. Considering everything that has happened (and still is happening), AWJ should be leading his team out this weekend, loud and proud.

Scrumpy wrote:It's not a good advert for the league, no wonder they struggled to find a sponsor for it.

Yeah but players can't play so much rugby. Players can't play 22 league games, 6 games in Europe and 12 test matches in a season. I reckon 30 games a year is the upper limit. That means a frontline test player should really only feature in about 50% of league games. Even the big French clubs appreciate this- if you watched Toulon away to Racing they rested Hayman, Giteau, both Armitage brothers, Bastareaud and Drew Mitchell.

As for sponsors, the Irish teams rest more and get bigger sponsorship deals and bigger attendances than everyone else at the moment. Rugby is about strength in depth. I don't understand the mentality that you'd be put off by not seeing a certain player. Sounds like complete armchair fan talk. I support ULSTER I don't go to see a specific player. It's a squad effort in elite sport and you want to see performances from everyone.

Either you want more games if it means proportionally less appearances by big stars or fewer games with stronger teams. You can't have both. Or you can sit on the fence and pretend there is a fantasy third way. Doesn't work.

"I don't understand the mentality that you'd be put off by not seeing a certain player. Sounds like armchair fan talk."

If you want young people to love and play the game then sometimes they might like to see their heroes play in the flesh and not sat in the stands with their feet up wrapped in cotton wool!

It sends the wrong message imo, and Notch there is no need to have a personal dig, very childish behaviour!

Don't be silly, no-one is having a personal dig at anybody.

Plenty of chances to see players play for any Pro12 team. Only on very specific occasions is everybody unavailable at the same time, like the start of the season and during international windows. You go along to any game and you are going to be seeing international players.

It's pretty disrespectful to the other guys in the team if you're not bothered to watch them because some other player can't play that week. If you don't want to go to a game on that basis there are many others who would take your place. It annoys me when there are sell-out crowds every week and maybe someone with that attitude is in the ground ahead of someone who will shout and roar for 80 minutes but couldn't get a ticket.

When that player is the Captain and is not injured (needs a Rest!) then that is disrespectful to the paying fans.

No wonder they stay away and don't part with their cash.

Scrumpy wrote:When that player is the Captain and is not injured (needs a Rest!) then that is disrespectful to the paying fans.

No wonder they stay away and don't part with their cash.

But thats the point; Ulster are forced to rest far more players than the Os and we sold out every home game last season. Our attendance for a pre-season friendly against Exeter was bigger than Baths average for their competitive league matches last year.

Clearly attendance and enjoyment of live rugby is influenced by a lot of other factors than who is on the team sheet.

Its not just about Ulster is it!

Yes you have good attendances but some teams in the Pro12 don't.

Scrumpy wrote:Its not just about Ulster is it!

Yes you have good attendances but some teams in the Pro12 don't.

Aye, and there might be a lot of reasons for that. It's not just about who is playing.

As well as paying to go and watch Ulster in the league and Europe, I also pay to go and watch Ireland. Am I expected to pay top dollar for those games to see players who are either unavailable through injury or already tired and under performing after being flogged in the league?

Also as an Ulster fan I want to see players playing at the top of their ability which can't happen if they are overplayed.

Notch wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:Its not just about Ulster is it!

Yes you have good attendances but some teams in the Pro12 don't.

Aye, and there might be a lot of reasons for that. It's not just about who is playing.

As well as paying to go and watch Ulster in the league and Europe, I also pay to go and watch Ireland. Am I expected to pay top dollar for those games to see players who are either unavailable through injury or already tired and under performing after being flogged in the league?

Also as an Ulster fan I want to see players playing at the top of their ability which can't happen if they are overplayed.

Nobody is suggesting that the Os should play AWJ in every game mun.

Cardiff Dave wrote:
Nobody is suggesting that the Os should play AWJ in every game mun.

But then this would be a good game to rest him in. At home against a team many are tipping to be 12th place in the league.

Its not just about Ulster and Ireland is it!

Think of the bigger picture for once!

If youngsters and Fans don't get to see their heroes (Big names) play in the Pro12 then there is something wrong with the set up of that league imo.

Scrumpy wrote:Its not just about Ulster and Ireland is it!

Think of the bigger picture for once!

If youngsters and Fans don't get to see their heroes (Big names) play in the Pro12 then there is something wrong with the set up of that league imo.

What works for Ulster and Ireland can work just as easily for the Ospreys and Wales. As for not getting to see big-name players- just not the case. Over the course of the season they will all play lots of games. The more high-profile or difficult the game the more chance there is you'll see them but they'll play plenty of matches. I would like to see a cutback in the number of games to raise the proportion of matches they play, such as ending games in international windows, but this is unlikely.

I think you're just not liking that there are teams that frequently rest players to keep them fresh and get big attendances and sponsorship deals anyway. Such as Ulster, Leinster... Toulon, Clermont, Toulouse.

If you're going to keep saying that it damages the league then you need to supply some evidence that poor attendances for some teams are directly linked to certain players being absent.

I keep hearing the Blues are going to be contenders this season but I don't buy it.

Good lord, it's always the same few WUMs that cause waves in these discussions and attempt to slag off the Pro12.

Notch wrote: What works for Ulster and Ireland can work just as easily for the Ospreys and Wales. As for not getting to see big-name players- just not the case. Over the course of the season they will all play lots of games. The more high-profile or difficult the game the more chance there is you'll see them

I think you're just not liking that there are teams that frequently rest players to keep them fresh and get big attendances and sponsorship deals anyway. Such as Ulster, Leinster... Toulon, Clermont, Toulouse.

What I don't like is that teams like Treviso are written off and have to play 2nd/3rd string teams, and fans who are denided the chance of watching some of the worlds best rugby players play as they fancy a rest!

Good lord, why do people always jump to conclusions when you point out something that isn't right, yet they only see it as someone trying to slag off the Pro12.

Scrumpy, the Pro 12 is what it is. Players cannot physically play in every game so they're going to miss games along the way. The sooner people accept the better. English players will be missing games in England and French players will be missing games in France. Everyone who follows rugby should know by now that in Nigel Owens famous words 'this is not soccer'. Its a physically demanding sport which requires a limit on the number of games players can play.

Meanwhile as expected the sky hype machine is in overdrive.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/new-guinness-pro12-rival-english-7696885

The sky hype will do wonders for the league. Previously - in Ireland at least - we had TV pundits talking down the league at every opportunity.

Scrumpy, the Swans have a squad of 27, the Scarlets have a squad of 45.

Rugby players can't play 2 games in a week like soccer players do.

As regards Cardiff - interesting comments from Robin Copeland about Cardiff and standards. The new coach will clearly need to sort these issues out.

While mistakes might have beeen laughed off in the Blues training, they're not tolerated here.

''Its a weird attitude (with the Blues) he says, "they dont realise the work that they have to put in and the potential they have to go somewhere, whereas here there is so much expectation and standards are set so high.

Sin é wrote:Scrumpy, the Swans have a squad of 27, the Scarlets have a squad of 45.

Rugby players can't play 2 games in a week like soccer players do.

As regards Cardiff - interesting comments from Robin Copeland about Cardiff and standards. The new coach will clearly need to sort these issues out.

While mistakes might have beeen laughed off in the Blues training, they're not tolerated here.

''Its a weird attitude (with the Blues) he says, "they dont realise the work that they have to put in and the potential they have to go somewhere, whereas here there is so much expectation and standards are set so high.

Think that's slight nonsense. Can't imagine the chief laughing things off.

I agree it is daft to rest AWJ for this game. It's the opening game of the season and their captain should be leading them out. He's one of the few real names the Ospreys have left too. I wouldn't pay money for this game if I was a casual fan now, if that's the regard they have for it.

Risca Rev wrote:

Sin é wrote:Scrumpy, the Swans have a squad of 27, the Scarlets have a squad of 45.

Rugby players can't play 2 games in a week like soccer players do.

As regards Cardiff - interesting comments from Robin Copeland about Cardiff and standards. The new coach will clearly need to sort these issues out.

While mistakes might have beeen laughed off in the Blues training, they're not tolerated here.

''Its a weird attitude (with the Blues) he says, "they dont realise the work that they have to put in and the potential they have to go somewhere, whereas here there is so much expectation and standards are set so high.

Think that's slight nonsense. Can't imagine the chief laughing things off.

Whatever it is, its not nonsense. It would explain why these players perform much better for Gatland. I can't imagine him letting them away with having low expectations or standards.

Hibbard said that the premiership was the best league in World. [Player says his current employers are better than his old employers...Shocker]

I would imagine, if anything, it refers to when phil davies was in charge. He had the habit of ignoring errors.

HammerofThunor wrote:Hibbard said that the premiership was the best league in World. [Player says his current employers are better than his old employers...Shocker]

Well if i was paid half as much as them i would say the same!

HammerofThunor wrote:Hibbard said that the premiership was the best league in World. [Player says his current employers are better than his old employers...Shocker]

He didn't say that his new employers were better.

HammerofThunor wrote:Hibbard said that the premiership was the best league in World. [Player says his current employers are better than his old employers...Shocker]

In fairness to Hibbard the Ospreys did perform well in the Pro12, so maybe it wasn't challenging enough for him. Perhaps he is more interested in the more forward/scrum orientated Aviva.

Well he directly referred to the semi-final intensity.

But it's much more likely that he was talking Poopie. Like all players do when they move. Except for Copeland of course. He just tells it like it is and keeps it real.

HammerofThunor wrote:Well he directly referred to the semi-final intensity.

But it's much more likely that he was talking Poopie. Like all players do when they move. Except for Copeland of course. He just tells it like it is and keeps it real.

"I look at the league [Aviva Premiership] and I think it's the best league in the world," said Hibbard.

"I think you look at the semis and the final last year and the intensity there was just phenomenal."

Well, a Cardiff fan here seems to think Copeland is on the money.

I don't see what the problem is with what Hibberd says. Most the Aviva finalists would be very pack orientated teams, so yes its going to be intense. There were 39 lineouts in the final last season (compared to 16 in the Pro12 Final)! I'd imagine that was an intense day out for any hooker.

This is what he said:

"I look at the league [Aviva Premiership] and I think it's the best league in the world," said Hibbard.

"I think you look at the semis and the final last year and the intensity there was just phenomenal."

Scrumpy wrote:Good lord, why do people always jump to conclusions when you point out something that isn't right, yet they only see it as someone trying to slag off the Pro12.

Because it's always the same people coming up with the same WUMs every time.
Why bother to point out something that isn't right when it isn't wrong either?

Remember when Chris Patterson left Gloucester claiming the premiership was rubbish?

The Saint wrote:Remember when Chris Patterson left Gloucester claiming the premiership was rubbish?

No.

Link please.

Scrumpy wrote:

The Saint wrote:Remember when Chris Patterson left Gloucester claiming the premiership was rubbish?

No.

Link please.

I couldn't remember what he said, but I've found out what I was referring to. He says the celtic league is better, more attacking and better to watch.

Chris Paterson wrote:
He said: "I genuinely think the Magners League is better, certainly for my game and the game Edinburgh play.


"The Premiership is physically dominated and there are a lot of slower games and relegation sometimes strangles the spectacle.


"You get two or three great games at the top end of the league undoubtedly, but towards the bottom there are tough, tough games.

"The threat of relegation and the amount of money you could lose in relegation sometimes strangles it.

"The Magners League is more positive, more attacking and certainly better to watch."

Edinburgh enjoyed one of their best seasons in the league last year under new head coach Andy Robinson.

And 30-year-old Paterson said he was "delighted" to be coming home.

"This is where I want to play, this is where I can get the best out of me.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/2419170/Chris-Paterson-attacks-Guinness-Premiership.html

I'm 100% with Chris on this one .