Ireland 2014/15 season

First topic message reminder :

The season has just started and yet the autumn internationals are just around the corner. Time for a new Ireland thread.


This season in the Pro 12 the internationals look like they're coming back a few weeks earlier than usual. This should allow them to be more match sharpe when the november internationals against South Africa, Georgia and Australia come round.

Here are the fixtures during the season.

November 2014
Sat 8th Nov 14 17:30
GS Ireland  v   South Africa
AVIVA Stadium

Sun 16th Nov 14 14:30
GS Ireland  v   Georgia
AVIVA Stadium

Sat 22nd Nov 14 16:30
GS Ireland  v   Australia
AVIVA Stadium

February 2015
Sat 7th Feb 15 15:30
6N Italy  v   Ireland
Stadio Olimpico

Sat 14th Feb 15 17:00
6N Ireland  v   France
AVIVA Stadium

March 2015
Sun 1st Mar 15 15:00
6N Ireland  v   England
AVIVA Stadium

Sat 14th Mar 15 14:30
6N Wales  v   Ireland
Millennium Stadium

Sat 21st Mar 15 14:30
6N Scotland  v   Ireland
BT Murrayfield



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After the first weekend of the Pro 12 Stuart Olding was the stand out Irish player. Theres talk about himself and Payne being the Ireland centers but I'd love to see Olding and Henshaw. Henshaw returns for Conancht next weekend.
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Ireland Squad (Guinness Series 2014, South Africa, Georgia, Australia- Aviva Stadium)

Forwards (21)
Stephen Archer (Cork Constitution/Munster) 2
Rodney Ah You (Corinthians/Connacht) 1
Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) 77
James Cronin (Dolphin/Munster) 1
Sean Cronin (St Mary's College/Leinster) 35
Robbie Diack (Malone/Ulster) 1
Dave Foley (UL Bohemians/Munster) *
Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster) 16
Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster) 67
Dave Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster) 10
Mike McCarthy (Lansdowne/Leinster) 15
Jack McGrath (St Mary's College/Leinster) 10
Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster) 94 CAPTAIN
Tommy O'Donnell (UL Bohemians/Munster) 4
Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster) 23
Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster) 41
Rhys Ruddock (St Mary's College/Leinster) 3
Dominic Ryan (Lansdowne/Leinster) *
Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster) 4
Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster) 17
Nathan White (Galwegians/Connacht)*

Backs (16)
Tommy Bowe (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) 54
Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster) 79
Craig Gilroy (Dungannon/Ulster) 5
Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht) 3
Felix Jones (Shannon/Munster) 6
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster) 55
Ian Keatley (Young Munster/Munster) 2
Darragh Leader (Galwegians/Connacht) *
Ian Madigan (Blackrock/Leinster) 10
Kieran Marmion (Galwegians/Connacht) 2
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster) 28
Stuart Olding (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) 1
Jared Payne (Ulster) *
Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster) 55
Johnny Sexton (Racing Metro) 45
Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster) 8

*Denotes uncapped player

And he butchered a 3 on 1 with Fitzgerald not having a player within 10 yards of him.
Madigan cost Leinster the game

Unfortunately we can only hope that Madigan rediscovers his best form, we don't really have any other choice.

Pretty good weekend from an Ireland perspective.

Excellent performance from Gilroy, Payne (at 15), Bowe for Ulster and a hatrick from motm Cave.

McFadden has looked impressive in recent weeks and Fitzgerald had his best game at 13, albeit motm was taking the p*ss a bit by BOD.

For Munster - Zebo, Conway and Earls had a field day in the second half against Sale with their pace.

Competition for the wings will be fierce and the midfield is a tight call even with Henshaw out.

In the back row Henderson was a monster for Ulster for 50 min and Tommy O'Donnell and Jordi Murphy put their hands up for the 7 jersey.

Peter O'Mahoney isn't in top form and O'Connell looks tired and a shadow of himself - although playing alongside the lightweight Foley isn't helping him. He'll get a week off next week but I'd be worried about his form with such a tough 8 weeks coming up. Toner might help him but I'd be tempted to bring him off early against Italy to save him for France.

10- 12 is a big worry though with Madigan and Keatley both out of sorts. D'arcy isn't playing and Marshall looked rusty for Ulster. Humphrey's was the most impressive 10, followed by a cameo from JJ so Schmidt should be worried about his options if Sexton doesn't make a quick recovery.

I thought Marshall did ok but not in the squad.

The wingers will be Bowe and probably Zebo maybe Gilroy - game to early for Earls.
McFadden for the bench.

My money is on Fitzgerald for a centre position but who with?

If D'arcy is fit then I think he'll play 12 because Joe will go for experience beside Madigan. Not convinced by Fitzgerald, I think it will be Payne at 13 with McFadden or Earls on the bench or at 11.

I think Zebo won't make the 23 at all and will play 15 for the wolfhounds.

I think Henshaw will be fit. Only a minor ankle strain with three weeks to recover, or is there some news that I have missed?

I have a feeling you are right - If at all possible he will be on the pitch and I think it will be with Fitzgerald

D'Arcy has been very poor this year - Leisnter dont pick him.
Also Payne last few games have been at 15 - he would have to play centre for the Wolfhounds to be in the frame.

They picked Henshaw at 12 against South Africa without worrying he'd played 13. Payne has played a lot more at 13 than Henshaw at 12 so I'm not sure him playing 15 will matter that much.

Notch wrote:I think Henshaw will be fit. Only a minor ankle strain with three weeks to recover, or is there some news that I have missed?

I thought he was out against Italy? Can't remember where I heard.

Really wanted to see Olding - the best 12, partner Henshaw, the best 13 to see how that developed, with their different skill sets but c'est la vie.

Payne was starting 13 against SA with not much rugby under his belt so don't think that will have much impact Geoff. The only difference is the availability of McFadden and Fitzgerald so that will show Joe's hand a bit more for the RWC and the real pecking order.

I think if everyone was fit, D'arcy wouldn't be in the frame for Italy - but he's someone Joe trusts and think with Sexton, Olding, Henshaw out then he may just go with what he knows.

I don't think Joe looks at individual form too - he knows what players can do and can't do and what he wants them to do. If a player can do what he wants them to do and is fit to do it then they'll be in the picture and if they can't do what he wants them to do then they won't be irrespective if what else they can do.

Back three picks itself if all fit.
Kearney, Bowe, Zebo. Nobody has done enough to challenge them and they have all been pretty good recently. Dave Kearney might have been a challenger for Zebo on the left wing but only due to extra defensive ability. Zebo would still get the nod though even if he wasn't injured.
Madigan will start at 10. He just will. Made a few mistakes on Saturday and kicking was suspect but did a lot of good stuff too.
Centres if fit will be Payne and Henshaw. Fitz and Earls both playing their way into contention. Both cover a multitude of positions and will fight it out for the 23 shirt. Earls to get it due to greater potential impact.

9. Murray
10. Madigan
11. Zebo
12. Henshaw
13. Payne
14. Bowe
15. Kearney
21. Reddan 22. Keatley 23. Earls

Submachine wrote:Back three picks itself if all fit.

I don't think it does. There's very little between Bowe and Trimble at 14. McFadden, whos a Schmidt favourite, and the underrated Conway are in great form.

Gilroy on current form is arguably the form winger in the country and can beat defenders in a way no other Irish player can, his double peroette against Leicester would have been try of the season if he'd made the line - he's looks more rounded player now with his offloading and kicking game and definitely gives a real challenge to Zebo as is Earls and a fit DK.

Rob Kearney is nailed on but in reality if Payne wasn't seen as a centre he may well not be the best full back available.

rodders wrote:

Submachine wrote:Back three picks itself if all fit.

I don't think it does. There's very little between Bowe and Trimble at 14. McFadden, whos a Schmidt favourite, and the underrated Conway are in great form.

Gilroy on current form is arguably the form winger in the country and can beat defenders in a way no other Irish player can, his double peroette against Leicester would have been try of the season if he'd made the line - he's looks more rounded player now with his offloading and kicking game and definitely gives a real challenge to Zebo as is Earls and a fit DK.

Rob Kearney is nailed on but in reality if Payne wasn't seen as a centre he may well not be the best full back available.

Sorry rodders I meant those who could possibly be fit for the Italian game. If Trimble was available and in the same form than before his injury. I think it would be he and Bowe on the wings.
I'm a big McFadden fan and he's a great guy to have available but he's a way down the list for me as is Gilroy. If either Earls or Fitzgeral were playing regularly on the wing he might be even further down. I have seen him play quite a bit this season and he has been very good. I'm just thinking how Joe might see it. I think he's in a similar position to Zebo last year in that he hasn't been involved in enough squads to know the Joe way. A couple of injuries though and he could pull a Trimble and be a fixture by the end of the 6N. I see the wing pecking order if everyone is fit as.
Trimble
Bowe
Zebo
Kearney
McFadden
Gilroy
Earls
Fitzgerald

Yeah I mean probably over the course of the season but still think Joe may throw a curve ball at 11 and the midfield for the 6N.

I don't think Zebo is the auto pick people think and also think he still have a few combinations at midfield he is considering.

He'll be keen to look at Earls, Fitzgerald and see more of Payne so there are a few potential combinations we could see over the next few weeks. I also think Madigan would have played 12 if Sexton was available but Schmidts hand is forced a bit for Italy and maybe France.

You never know, he might be there outside Keatley depending on Henshaws recovery with fiz at 13.

Anybody see how Keith Earls was playing at 13 yesterday? Six Nations has probably come a little too early for him however he seems to have improved his all-round game significantly and Schmidt is reportedly a fan.

theslosty wrote:Anybody see how Keith Earls was playing at 13 yesterday? Six Nations has probably come a little too early for him however he seems to have improved his all-round game significantly and Schmidt is reportedly a fan.

He played very well against a pretty shabby Sale to be fair. Ivan Dineen was making breaks for fun. Fitz was very solid against Wasps. Not a lot between them I'd say.

Some very heartening performances over the weekend that will give Schmidt food for thought. Thought the new look shaggy beardy Henderson was superb for the 50 or so minutes he was on in the Leicester game game but will need more game time before he can be a 6N team. Whatever about th 6N, a fit Henderson will fit one of the gaping holes in the Irish panel - a second row partner for Toner.

Likewise Earls looked very good for the time he was on - albeit he was playing against Sale 2nds but like Henderson probably needs more game time. Thought Gilroy did a lot of good things but seems to be still down the picking order.

People talking about Payne and Henshaw in the centre. Quite what Payne has done to be seen as a shoo-in at 13 I'm not sure. If anything Fitzgerald is the 13 with Henshaw inside him, Bowe and Zebo on the wings with Kearney FB, Madigan at 10 and Murray (if fit) the obvious starting 9. MOC seemed to suggest on the radio this morning that Reddan's injury isn't that serious - good because we'd be in the sh1t if both Murray and Reddan were injured for the first 6N match

Submachine wrote:

theslosty wrote:Anybody see how Keith Earls was playing at 13 yesterday? Six Nations has probably come a little too early for him however he seems to have improved his all-round game significantly and Schmidt is reportedly a fan.

He played very well against a pretty shabby Sale to be fair. Ivan Dineen was making breaks for fun. Fitz was very solid against Wasps. Not a lot between them I'd say.

Although I'm not his biggest fan, Cave scored a hat trick and was motm so deserves a mention.

Earls was impressive and took his try really well.... although if I was going to be nitpickety he was carrying the ball in one hand, ignored his support and only just managed to get the ball grounded with the benefit of doubt of the tmo. It's that kind of thing that let's him down in the tight games... and i suspect Joe will not be impressed either.

While they don't have much/any test experience, Marmion (and even the kid McGrath) could play scrum half very well. The big issue if Murray/Reddan were both gone is that Boss would creep in ahead of both of those which would be terrible.

I, personally, would contend that the kid McGrath is better than Reddan and Boss at Leinster now. 'Reputation' and 'Experience' are the only excuses for others getting picked ahead of him, definitely not 'form' or 'performance'.

brennomac wrote:  Thought Gilroy did a lot of good things but seems to be still down the picking order.

Not sure how you come to that conclusion.
Only 3 out and out wingers made the AI squad and the 6N squad - Bowe, Zebo, Gilroy

Jamie Heaslip not taking contact in training this week because of a dodgy shoulder. Conor Murray going for scans, Eoin Reddan also a doubt for Italy. Dave Foley might need surgery on his wrist- ligament damage.

But Robbie Henshaw, Keith Earls and Kieran Marmion are all fit. Good chance for Marmion to get his first start.

No news on Dave Kearney strangely.

http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/33636.php#.VMZTxktvqZg

It will be Boss and Madigan I'm sure then, with marmion on the bench.

Henshaw at 12 with either Payne or gawd help us Fitzgerald and his terrible fringe outside him.

Nah, Marmion will play. No way will Boss get picked to start a test match.

That said, the Wolfhounds game will probably be key in deciding that.

Don't think Schmidt would risk an inexperienced Marmion alongside Madigan or keatley...I'm being diplomatic btw, it will be Madigan. I think he'll play it safe away from home with Boss.

If it was england france or wales up first, Marmion might not get a look in, but with all due respect its only Italy. we should be beating them even with O'Leary at 9.

Boss has been in pretty dreadful form all season. Hopefully he'll only be in the squad for the wolfhounds game.

I think Boss was pretty good against Wasps but agree he's not been great this year. If Sexton was playing then I could see Marmion getting a go but think he'll be on the bench.

What's the deal with Duncan Williams. He's gone from terrible to very, very handy in the space of a few months. Looks like a real option now.

Sub you clearly weren't watching the same Duncan Williams who was appallingly poor against Saracens?

Was he that bad? I think it was hard to see past the forwards for that performance. For the most part when I have seen him play this season he has marshalled his forwards well, box kicked acurately, chosen good option and shown a turn of pace I didn't know he posessed.
The main thing I think he has improved on though is the scrum halfs bread and butter. His passing has been snappy and acurate. Stringer like at times.

According to RTE, Conor Murray and Eoin Reddan are set to be fit for the Italy game.

Sean O'Brien is fit and looks set to play for the Wolfhounds.

Things could come together nicely for the 6Ns, fingers crossed.

I don't understand why Darcy or Payne are in the frame for a start against Italy.

Payne hasn't played 13 in a while and has been injured and Darcy is really out of sorts.

Henshaw at 12 and Fitzgerald at 13 is the right call. They both have power, they both have been in great defensive form, Henshaw in particular has looked great in attack, fitz has been gaining great yards for Leinster, Henshaw's distribution has looked better than ever.

Murray-Madigan
Henshaw-Fitzgerald
Zebo-Kearney-Bowe

Reddan-Keatley-Earls/Gilroy (dependent on Wolfhounds game)

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote: fitz has been gaining great yards for Leinster, Henshaw's distribution has looked better than ever.

Fitzgerald made least metres out of any Leinster backs against Wasps bar Reddan - even Haskell namechecked Madigan as the main threat from Leinster. He made less than Cave against a better Tigers midfield and less than Earls in a 50 min appearance.

I'm glad to see him back and he's doing ok if you are talking about form then he is 3rd choice at best - but for me Payne and Henshaw are better than all of the above and would be the first players Joe should be looking at and with Olding injured and Madigan needed at 10 then D'arcy coming into the mix is logical enough.

Fitz, Cave and Earls for all their decent provincial form have a lot more to prove at this level.

rodders wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote: fitz has been gaining great yards for Leinster, Henshaw's distribution has looked better than ever.

Fitzgerald made least metres out of any Leinster backs against Wasps bar Reddan - even Haskell namechecked Madigan as the main threat from Leinster. He made less than Cave against a better Tigers midfield and less than Earls in a 50 min appearance.

I'm glad to see him back and he's doing ok if you are talking about form then he is 3rd choice at best - but for me Payne and Henshaw are better than all of the above and would be the first players Joe should be looking at and with Olding injured and Madigan needed at 10 then D'arcy coming into the mix is logical enough.

Fitz, Cave and Earls for all their decent provincial form have a lot more to prove at this level.

Stats tell but a part of the story.
If you look at the last number of games that Fitz has played when he has been outside of Madigan, fitz has been the guy running the block line with Madigan the outback option. It makes perfect sense due to Madigan's freakish pass as the outback player has more opportunity to distribute. Fitz makes yards that are hard and I think has been doing it really well. He gets over the gainline off setpieces and his ball security and placement are quick and reliable for the most part. I think we'd be fools not to start him.

I see theres a new trophy for the 6 nations. does this mean we get to keep the old trophyy?


http://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/pic-were-not-sure-what-we-think-of-the-new-six-nations-trophy/10875?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Promoted+Post&utm_campaign=SportsJOE_Jan15

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
Stats tell but a part of the story.
If you look at the last number of games that Fitz has played when he has been outside of Madigan, fitz has been the guy running the block line with Madigan the outback option. It makes perfect sense due to Madigan's freakish pass as the outback player has more opportunity to distribute. Fitz makes yards that are hard and I think has been doing it really well. He gets over the gainline off setpieces and his ball security and placement are quick and reliable for the most part. I think we'd be fools not to start him.

Yes they do. I've been watching his performances and Saturday was the pick of the bunch. His distribution is still not great moving left to right and for me its Madigan whos been hitting the hard lines, where as Fitzgerald flatters to decieve a bit.

You can get away with taking a step in the centre but it has to be coupled with the ability then to pick the correct offload once the defender has been pulled to put someone else in space - which is something Fitzgerald doesn't do, intinctively 9 times out of 10 steps out then steps in, which is enough easy for an organised defence to deal with.

He does well in broken play but lacks genuine creativity or the ability to break the line. Defensively he is good - better than Cave but in all aspects of centre play inferior to either Payne or Henshaw - hence they are the front runners.

Golden wrote:I see theres a new trophy for the 6 nations. does this mean we get to keep the old trophyy?


http://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/pic-were-not-sure-what-we-think-of-the-new-six-nations-trophy/10875?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Promoted+Post&utm_campaign=SportsJOE_Jan15

Maybe it's sitting on BOD's mantlepiece already.....bloody big mantlepiece has BOD.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

rodders wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote: fitz has been gaining great yards for Leinster, Henshaw's distribution has looked better than ever.

Fitzgerald made least metres out of any Leinster backs against Wasps bar Reddan - even Haskell namechecked Madigan as the main threat from Leinster. He made less than Cave against a better Tigers midfield and less than Earls in a 50 min appearance.

I'm glad to see him back and he's doing ok if you are talking about form then he is 3rd choice at best - but for me Payne and Henshaw are better than all of the above and would be the first players Joe should be looking at and with Olding injured and Madigan needed at 10 then D'arcy coming into the mix is logical enough.

Fitz, Cave and Earls for all their decent provincial form have a lot more to prove at this level.

Stats tell but a part of the story.
If you look at the last number of games that Fitz has played when he has been outside of Madigan, fitz has been the guy running the block line with Madigan the outback option. It makes perfect sense due to Madigan's freakish pass as the outback player has more opportunity to distribute. Fitz makes yards that are hard and I think has been doing it really well. He gets over the gainline off setpieces and his ball security and placement are quick and reliable for the most part. I think we'd be fools not to start him.

He isnt reliable enough. He might make the bench but cant see Schmidt starting him.

rodders wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
Stats tell but a part of the story.
If you look at the last number of games that Fitz has played when he has been outside of Madigan, fitz has been the guy running the block line with Madigan the outback option. It makes perfect sense due to Madigan's freakish pass as the outback player has more opportunity to distribute. Fitz makes yards that are hard and I think has been doing it really well. He gets over the gainline off setpieces and his ball security and placement are quick and reliable for the most part. I think we'd be fools not to start him.

Yes they do. I've been watching his performances and Saturday was the pick of the bunch. His distribution is still not great moving left to right and for me its Madigan whos been hitting the hard lines, where as Fitzgerald flatters to decieve a bit.

You can get away with taking a step in the centre but it has to be coupled with the ability then to pick the correct offload once the defender has been pulled to put someone else in space - which is something Fitzgerald doesn't do, intinctively 9 times out of 10 steps out then steps in, which is enough easy for an organised defence to deal with.

He does well in broken play but lacks genuine creativity or the ability to break the line. Defensively he is good - better than Cave but in all aspects of centre play inferior to either Payne or Henshaw - hence they are the front runners.

That part there I simply can not agree with or understand your thinking.
Henshaw is better, definitely.

Payne? Why do you think that?

I've been guilty of not watching enough rugby as out here it means staying up til 2am sometimes but I've watched every game he has been involved in since his return. To say that Fitzgerald evasion is predictable is absolutely ridiculous to say the least. He is of the same ilk of Madigan in that he bounces off both feet equally well, Darcy was also very good at this but in a power way rather than necessarily agility.

Since his return his defense has been phenomenally good. His running has been of high quality in poor quality situations, where perhaps he doesn't make a full linebreak but he gets over the gainline and importantly creates quick, go-forward ball. His kicking has been much more evident and as opposed to 2009 it's been accurate. His support lines and collection of offloads have been great also.

His passing has been a low point for sure. He is not a good passer of the ball. His short passing game is good but length-wise he really struggles. There are times where he takes the ball on himself too often as a result.

He has been frankly excellent since his return, all his basics have been sky-high (passing aside).

http://www.the42.ie/joe-schmidt-sexton-fitzgerald-1908085-Jan2015/

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
That part there I simply can not agree with or understand your thinking.
Henshaw is better, definitely.

Payne? Why do you think that?

I've been guilty of not watching enough rugby as out here it means staying up til 2am sometimes but I've watched every game he has been involved in since his return. To say that Fitzgerald evasion is predictable is absolutely ridiculous to say the least. He is of the same ilk of Madigan in that he bounces off both feet equally well, Darcy was also very good at this but in a power way rather than necessarily agility.

Since his return his defense has been phenomenally good. His running has been of high quality in poor quality situations, where perhaps he doesn't make a full linebreak but he gets over the gainline and importantly creates quick, go-forward ball. His kicking has been much more evident and as opposed to 2009 it's been accurate. His support lines and collection of offloads have been great also.

His passing has been a low point for sure. He is not a good passer of the ball. His short passing game is good but length-wise he really struggles. There are times where he takes the ball on himself too often as a result.

He has been frankly excellent since his return, all his basics have been sky-high (passing aside).

Payne is stronger, faster, bigger, has better footballing ability, can pass long or short and can defend better. So that's pretty much every aspect I can think Pete.

On Fitzgerald, agree he has a good short passing game and a poor long one, especially of the left hand. On his short passing game - he's better on pre-rehersed moves than in open play.

He's a solid defender but don't agree with this hyperbole on his attacking play - he rarely breaks the line, scores or creates anything for anyone else. He looks better because defenders hang back of him but he rarely troubles them because they know he is drifting out to feign the outside break then step back, or kick through.

He can't run an outside arc because he's too slow and not strong enough to break contact (like Payne/Henshaw even Earls), and unless you have a lazy inside defender covering the cut back then he is no attacking threat because he doesn't have the hands to cover for his lack of pace the way BOD did.

To me he is a makeshift centre for Leinster and definitely not international standard at this stage, although would be happy to eat my words.

As we are only defending champions at the moment largely due to our 7 tries against Italy last year, do we think we should be trying to put a score on them, or with the injury list and being away from home, just happy to take a victory?

petethepete wrote:As we are only defending champions at the moment largely due to our 7 tries against Italy last year, do we think we should be trying to put a score on them, or with the injury list and being away from home, just happy to take a victory?

Both, but last year our points difference was mainly down to our miserly defence and good discipline in our own half.

I think it will be very difficult to win the title with 4 wins this year - I think it is GS or bust.

Wales look favourites to me if they beat England. It will be very tight and we need to just win the first 2 games and take it from there. All the games are winnable on paper.... 4 of them are very losable though.

Its always harder to beat Italy early in the tournament than later. If we were going there in Round 4 or 5 we might put a score on them... but they are always fired up for the first game and we have a few key guys missing.

rodders wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
That part there I simply can not agree with or understand your thinking.
Henshaw is better, definitely.

Payne? Why do you think that?

I've been guilty of not watching enough rugby as out here it means staying up til 2am sometimes but I've watched every game he has been involved in since his return. To say that Fitzgerald evasion is predictable is absolutely ridiculous to say the least. He is of the same ilk of Madigan in that he bounces off both feet equally well, Darcy was also very good at this but in a power way rather than necessarily agility.

Since his return his defense has been phenomenally good. His running has been of high quality in poor quality situations, where perhaps he doesn't make a full linebreak but he gets over the gainline and importantly creates quick, go-forward ball. His kicking has been much more evident and as opposed to 2009 it's been accurate. His support lines and collection of offloads have been great also.

His passing has been a low point for sure. He is not a good passer of the ball. His short passing game is good but length-wise he really struggles. There are times where he takes the ball on himself too often as a result.

He has been frankly excellent since his return, all his basics have been sky-high (passing aside).

Payne is stronger, faster, bigger, has better footballing ability, can pass long or short and can defend better. So that's pretty much every aspect I can think Pete.

On Fitzgerald, agree he has a good short passing game and a poor long one, especially of the left hand. On his short passing game - he's better on pre-rehersed moves than in open play.

He's a solid defender but don't agree with this hyperbole on his attacking play - he rarely breaks the line, scores or creates anything for anyone else. He looks better because defenders hang back of him but he rarely troubles them because they know he is drifting out to feign the outside break then step back, or kick through.

He can't run an outside arc because he's too slow and not strong enough to break contact (like Payne/Henshaw even Earls), and unless you have a lazy inside defender covering the cut back then he is no attacking threat because he doesn't have the hands to cover for his lack of pace the way BOD did.

To me he is a makeshift centre for Leinster and definitely not international standard at this stage, although would be happy to eat my words.

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on the Payne/Fitzgerald thing. I'm not able to understand why you think Payne is better or agree with some of the comparisons you make. To say that Fitzgerald is no attacking threat goes against what guys like BOD and Schmidt have been saying for years but.....oh well....

Earls chosen at 13, Darcy at 12 and Fitz at 11 for the Wolfies.

15. Felix Jones (Shannon/Munster) (capt)
14. Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
13. Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
12. Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
11. Luke Fitzgerald (Blackrock College/Leinster)
10. Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster)
9. Kieran Marmion (Corinthians/Connacht)
1. Jack McGrath (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
2. Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster)
3. Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
4. Iain Henderson (Ballynahinch/Ulster)
5. Mike McCarthy (Leinster)
6. Dominic Ryan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
7. Sean O'Brien (UCD/Leinster)
8. Jack Conan (Old Belvedere/Leinster)

Replacements:

16. Rob Herring (Ballynahinch/Ulster)
17. Michael Bent (Leinster)
18. Nathan White (Galwegians/Connacht) *
19. Robbie Diack (Malone/Ulster)
20. Eoin McKeon (Corinthians/Connacht) *
21. Isaac Boss (Terenure/Leinster)
22. Noel Reid (Clontarf/Leinster)
23. Craig Gilroy (Dungannon/Ulster)

Pretty excited about this team. Would have liked to have seen an option other than Darcy and think it would have been good to have got Healy involved too.

Overall pretty darn happy.