Ireland 2014/15 season

First topic message reminder :

The season has just started and yet the autumn internationals are just around the corner. Time for a new Ireland thread.


This season in the Pro 12 the internationals look like they're coming back a few weeks earlier than usual. This should allow them to be more match sharpe when the november internationals against South Africa, Georgia and Australia come round.

Here are the fixtures during the season.

November 2014
Sat 8th Nov 14 17:30
GS Ireland  v   South Africa
AVIVA Stadium

Sun 16th Nov 14 14:30
GS Ireland  v   Georgia
AVIVA Stadium

Sat 22nd Nov 14 16:30
GS Ireland  v   Australia
AVIVA Stadium

February 2015
Sat 7th Feb 15 15:30
6N Italy  v   Ireland
Stadio Olimpico

Sat 14th Feb 15 17:00
6N Ireland  v   France
AVIVA Stadium

March 2015
Sun 1st Mar 15 15:00
6N Ireland  v   England
AVIVA Stadium

Sat 14th Mar 15 14:30
6N Wales  v   Ireland
Millennium Stadium

Sat 21st Mar 15 14:30
6N Scotland  v   Ireland
BT Murrayfield



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After the first weekend of the Pro 12 Stuart Olding was the stand out Irish player. Theres talk about himself and Payne being the Ireland centers but I'd love to see Olding and Henshaw. Henshaw returns for Conancht next weekend.
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Ireland Squad (Guinness Series 2014, South Africa, Georgia, Australia- Aviva Stadium)

Forwards (21)
Stephen Archer (Cork Constitution/Munster) 2
Rodney Ah You (Corinthians/Connacht) 1
Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) 77
James Cronin (Dolphin/Munster) 1
Sean Cronin (St Mary's College/Leinster) 35
Robbie Diack (Malone/Ulster) 1
Dave Foley (UL Bohemians/Munster) *
Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster) 16
Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster) 67
Dave Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster) 10
Mike McCarthy (Lansdowne/Leinster) 15
Jack McGrath (St Mary's College/Leinster) 10
Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster) 94 CAPTAIN
Tommy O'Donnell (UL Bohemians/Munster) 4
Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster) 23
Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster) 41
Rhys Ruddock (St Mary's College/Leinster) 3
Dominic Ryan (Lansdowne/Leinster) *
Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster) 4
Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster) 17
Nathan White (Galwegians/Connacht)*

Backs (16)
Tommy Bowe (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) 54
Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster) 79
Craig Gilroy (Dungannon/Ulster) 5
Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht) 3
Felix Jones (Shannon/Munster) 6
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster) 55
Ian Keatley (Young Munster/Munster) 2
Darragh Leader (Galwegians/Connacht) *
Ian Madigan (Blackrock/Leinster) 10
Kieran Marmion (Galwegians/Connacht) 2
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster) 28
Stuart Olding (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) 1
Jared Payne (Ulster) *
Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster) 55
Johnny Sexton (Racing Metro) 45
Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster) 8

*Denotes uncapped player

Henshaw can offload and pass and has a decent kicking game. Can't say I'm impressed by Earls doing any of that. Earls has great feet and a burst of acceleration that is suited to the wing, which is the only place in Test rugby he should be considered.

For me that's a pretty unqualified criticism of Earls. His passing motion is very natural and when he was given a run at 13 he acquired several try assists along with a great understanding with Zebo. What the Irish side lacked last year was pure pace in the backline.
Also Earls has a very good kicking game, could easily have made it in soccer or GAA apparently and he is a real master of the grubber kick. Adept with two feet as well.

I do think Earls is a test standard 13, and some of the criticism made against him is unjustified and made by those who haven't seen him play there consistently for Munster. He is also one of the most dangerous runners available to Ireland. I hope that he will have a good tussle for the 13 shirt with Henshaw (and I really do hope that Henshaw is moved back to 13 after the 6 nations).

The thing that frustrates me about the Henshaw-Payne combination is that both players are not playing where they are best utilised. Although, as I have said already, there isn't really any other options currently. D'Arcy is the only real 12 available, unless Luke Marshall is called up after the first two games. Or if Madigan is given the 12 shirt.

That said, it worked extremely well against South Africa. Well enough that I want to see it again.

They made 2 passes between them in the entire 80 minutes. Hardly evidence of it working extremely well.

Notch wrote:That said, it worked extremely well against South Africa. Well enough that I want to see it again.

From what I can remember, the two were effective in the physical tussle, but they weren't the most creative combination. Payne was used an awful lot as a direct strike runner, which just seems like a waste of his talents. Henshaw is also better with more space to run from 13. He barely made any metres at 12. I think for that sort of style of rugby there are actually better options.

theslosty wrote:They made 2 passes between them in the entire 80 minutes. Hardly evidence of it working extremely well.

For the game plan we had to play to win that game, it was very effective. Defensively sound and Henshaw had a massive game, and offered a kicking game from 12 which we'll need with the way Madigan is playing. Their first outing together was good enough that I want to see it again. Compared to D'Arcy-Henshaw, which was all over the shop defensively. It's between D'Arcy and Henshaw for 12 and I think D'Arcy is a bit of a liability. After that, the other options at 13 aren't great. Cave and Fitzgerald are both a bit too pedestrian. Earls isn't really enough of a heads-up player for me.

I would have liked to see Olding or McCloskey inside Henshaw but c'est la vie. We've only one 12 in the squad, and father time seems to have come for him. Henshaw had the best game of his short Ireland career at 12 against the Boks so it seems inevitable its about who is best to partner him. And while I'm not a massive fan of Payne as a 13 I think thats the best balanced combo.

Currently no one can really argue with that Notch, but I do hope that when Olding/McCloskey/Marshall/whoever are fit and ready to show that they are test standard 12s (which is inevitable, injury permitting) that they will move Henshaw back to 13, and Payne will have to fight for the shirt or fight for his best position at 15.

I will be disappointed if the same combination is still being used a year from now. I just don't think it is or will ever be the most effective centre combo for Ireland. With what we know Henshaw can do, to see him only making a few hard metres every game would be very disappointing and wasteful.

Not sure why people say Earls is the most talented back we have. He is lightening quick, has very good acceleration and has agility. These are sports skills. Most sports need them.

In terms of rugby skills. He isn't all that well off.

I worry about Madigan not being able to control Italy for the first 20minutes. I reckon the 9 (please let it be Murray) will need to control a fair amount of the ball to take the wind out of Italian sails at the start of the game.

Also, if this is the squad for the first 2 games it is absolutely brilliant to see names like Henderson, Healy, O'Brien and Earls on paper meaning they could potentially be picked this week or next week.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Not sure why people say Earls is the most talented back we have.

I agree Pete - a bizarre statement.... I'd say Henshaw, Olding, Payne, Madigan, Mcloskey, Murray, Marmion, McGrath (a slot of M's' about) and as much as it pains me to say it Zebo are the most naturally gifted backs we have and Bowe, Sexton and Kearney are 3 consistent world level performers.

Earl's is 27 and a fairly experienced international - although he still has scope to improve some areas of his game I don't think there is much else to see there that we haven't already.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:The thing that frustrates me about the Henshaw-Payne combination is that both players are not playing where they are best utilised.

But they are - because they are playing where they are needed most. If you start from the basis that your 2 best midfielders are Payne and Henshaw then it comes down to who is best inside and outside.

At Connacht Henshaw mostly plays inside Bundiaki despite wearing 13, and often even stands at 1st reciever. He has said that he prefers playing at 12, so its not like he is being forced to play there. I think he has all the skills and is possibly the best distributor in the backline, as well as being the most physical presence.

I don't think it matters who plays 12 or 13 but that they compliment each other and its too early to say is that is the case yet with these 2.

Rememeber D'arcy was a makeshift 12 when he moved there many people though he and BOD wouldn't work because they were too similar. Ma nonu was a winger.

Sometimes you have to look outside the box to find the best combinations.

rodders wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:The thing that frustrates me about the Henshaw-Payne combination is that both players are not playing where they are best utilised.

But they are - because they are playing where they are needed most. If you start from the basis that your 2 best midfielders are Payne and Henshaw then it comes down to who is best inside and outside.

At Connacht Henshaw mostly plays inside Bundiaki despite wearing 13, and often even stands at 1st reciever. He has said that he prefers playing at 12, so its not like he is being forced to play there. I think he has all the skills and is possibly the best distributor in the backline, as well as being the most physical presence.

I don't think it matters who plays 12 or 13 but that they compliment each other and its too early to say is that is the case yet with these 2.

Rememeber D'arcy was a makeshift 12 when he moved there many people though he and BOD wouldn't work because they were too similar. Ma nonu was a winger.

Sometimes you have to look outside the box to find the best combinations.

I've never seen Henshaw playing at 12 for Connacht, could any Connacht fans clarify that? Even with the 13 shirt as rodders says. Also, do you have a link to where Henshaw says he prefers 12? I have never heard that either, but I have heard him say he would like to be the next 13 for Ireland.

The thing is, barring injuries which is the problem at the minute, we don't need to look outside the box. We have some very talented 12s. Henshaw is also best with a bit more space, like I said he didn't make much ground at all against South Africa. I would rather see him used where he is best and if he is going to be transformed into a bosh merchant with an offload, then there are actually bigger and better options than him to do so.

The talented 12s are all injured Pete - bar Madigan who needs to cover fly-half.

I should reiterate that the combo I want to see is the Olding/McCloskey - Henshaw one but think the RWC may be a season too soon for this.

Not convinced by either of Fitzgerald or Earls as midfielders other than makeshifts, so see the 1st choice midfield for the auntumn being some combination of Henshaw, Payne and Madigan - Maybe D'arcy, Earls, Fitz and Cave as back ups to slot in.

McCloskey has been the nicest surprise since he got his big chance at Ulster. He can do the bosh tactic as he's a big old specimen of a fella but he also runs great lines, has great hands and even does the Gilroyesque twinkle toes bit. Olding is also a class act and one of the best homegrown players Ulster has.

It all comes down to who's partnering Henshaw and we just got to have faith in Joe to get it right.

I think McCloskey is a phenomenal talent Pete. Without going overboard I can't think of many players that size who have quick feet, balance and ball handling ability anywhere in the NH.

My only fear is that he is so unique that he may get overlooked or under utilized by the indiginious coaches. For me he has the potential to unlock defences in the was SBW does with his ability to break the gainline and offload.

It's almost too good for it to be true and you almost are waiting for a weakness.

As much as I rate Olding I think McCloskey is a equally exciting prospect. I'd like to see Schmidt work with him one on one they way he did with Henshaw, who has come on leaps and bounds this year.

Let's not oversell too early though. Ireland is full of over-sell products that haven't exactly lived up to the full gamut-load of supposed talents when hitting International level.....

Let's be kinder to any of another even newer breed coming through and let's not fluff them up too early.

rodders wrote:I think McCloskey is a phenomenal talent Pete. Without going overboard I can't think of many players that size who have quick feet, balance and ball handling ability anywhere in the NH.

My only fear is that he is so unique that he may get overlooked or under utilized by the indiginious coaches. For me he has the potential to unlock defences in the was SBW does with his ability to break the gainline and offload.

It's almost too good for it to be true and you almost are waiting for a weakness.

As much as I rate Olding I think McCloskey is a equally exciting prospect. I'd like to see Schmidt work with him one on one they way he did with Henshaw, who has come on leaps and bounds this year.

I was of the thinking that Olding would have the 12 shirt nailed on for Ulster Rodders. After seeing McCloskey my thinking changed. The midfield combinations we have at Ulster when all are fit are mind-boggling. It's a lovely way to have your mind boggled though. Perhaps we'll see the midfield of Olding and McCloskey mixing things up. If that combination worked out it could be the one for the 2019 RWC

SecretFly wrote:Let's not oversell too early though.  Ireland is full of over-sell products that haven't exactly lived up to the full gamut-load of supposed talents when hitting International level.....

Let's be kinder to any of another even newer breed coming through and let's not fluff them up too early.

I don't agree fly - I think sometimes when you see something walk like a duck and quack like a duck then you have to accept that its a duck rather than always presume that if you throw it in the pond it will drown ..... and even if it does turn out that it can't actually swim you can always fish him out, dry him off and give him a few more bread crusts until he's ready to try again.

rodders wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Let's not oversell too early though.  Ireland is full of over-sell products that haven't exactly lived up to the full gamut-load of supposed talents when hitting International level.....

Let's be kinder to any of another even newer breed coming through and let's not fluff them up too early.

I don't agree fly - I think sometimes when you see something walk like a duck and quack like a duck then you have to accept that its a duck rather than always presume that if you throw it in the pond it will drown ..... and even if it does turn out that it can't actually swim you can always fish him out, dry him off and give him a few more bread crusts until he's ready to try again.

I love the analogy, Rodders, but........................... nope.  

There was a time in the dim and distant past when Madigan was Apollo, ready to be unleashed on the mongrel hordes of Internationalism.  
There was a time when Fitzgerald held a golden oval in his palm and strode through the Foreign slaves with flames of 70's Glamrock glitter billowing in his wake.  
There was a time when McFadden had the lowest centre of gravity in the enitre world, a record he held right up until the time he was first criticised as an over-inflated Ladyboy nincompoop (which was around about his first International I guess).  
There was a time when Zebo was the second coming of Jesus Christ but with more miracles at his command than Jesus, most especially that repeatable back flick super try for the ages that everyone remembers, except those who remember it wasn't him that scored the try... but why remember plebs when Zebo, God of War was there to do the bow.  
There was a time that Earls........................ well, Earls has been so long now the 'new kid on the block' that it's often like a weird dream to think of him as still that new kid on the hopeful block even now in 2015.

Now don't get me wrong, all those players have had their moments and I'm personally not looking for geniuses just very good players putting in an honest shift.  And most of them, and others, have done that over the years - but none of them yet have proven equal to the excitement ingendered by fans when they were starting out.
No, I'm not against putting green rookies out and seeing how they operate in the International sphere at all.  But I've learned (painfully) to wait until that happens and perhaps a season has elapsed before idolising them with words like 'phenomenal'

Yeah, lets steady ourselves quite a bit here, McCloskey has looked very good but come on, Pro 12 opposition is a completely different story to test standard centres. It is FAR too early to make such ludicrous claims about him, or any other exciting player until they can consistently do it for Ireland against top opposition.

As is always the case, when a new talented player comes onto the scene he almost ALWAYS looks great in his first season, as he is a new specimen that defences have never dealt with. Eventually they are marked, or figured out and that is where the real test of character comes into play. McCloskey will not always be making such fine breaks in midfields, especially against tougher opponents. We will see how he progresses next season.

McCloskey has massively impressed me. His size is the thing that stands out but he has good skills too which is where most big men fail. He doesn't have the bad habit most big men have of trying to bully his opposite number at every attempt. In other words he isn't predictable. He has a fair bit of pace too.

That's the thing, McCloskey's difficult to predict. He can bosh with the biggest and the best yet he can also be as twinkle toed as the Welsh jinkers of old. I got him and Alan O'Connor mixed up when they were on the pitch at the same time for a couple of games.
A twinkly toed, skilfull centre the size of a sizeable second row, I think we may well have a real star on our hands.

He'll only be an option after the RWC, but he has unbelievable potential as a player.

Notch wrote:He'll only be an option after the RWC, but he has unbelievable potential as a player.

It will certainly be some battle between McCloskey and Olding, with Marshall still in the mix as well. I'm not really sure who is going to nail the shirt, it really depends on the game plan I guess. I still think Olding is seen as the next irish 12, even based on his inclusion in the squad in November. I also think Olding would be the better option to partner Henshaw. McCloskey would be better if a smaller 13 like Earls is selected.

If Heaslip is ruled out- and I believe the prognosis is fairly good- what do people expect our back row to look like?

Wouldnt mind seeing something like

1. McGrath
2. Best
3. Moore
4. Toner
5. POC
6. Henderson
7. TOD
8. POM

20. Ryan

Yeah, move POM to number 8 and bring in Hendy at blindside flanker.

Henderson to 6 I presume. Depends on second row cover too.

Its actually a tricky juggling act for Schmidt. He has to prepare for Italy but have one eye on France and try to integrate the returning players back into the side.

I'd imagine Jordi Murphy would start at 8, O'Donnell at 7 and O'Mahoney at 6 as this is how they would have been preparing with Heaslip injured and the other guys in the wolfhounds.

Henderson and maybe Ryan or Diack to come on to the bench - SOB if fit enough.

Would be good to see Henderson start but don't think he's fit to do the 80 and Schmidt will need him to cover 2nd row.

profitius wrote:Henderson to 6 I presume. Depends on second row cover too.

Its actually a tricky juggling act for Schmidt. He has to prepare for Italy but have one eye on France and try to integrate the returning players back into the side.

Mick McCarthy will miss this game but be back for Italy. At this point, Robbie Diack is our fourth choice second row

Italy game has to be close to Schmidt's considered best team and to play like it.  
I know every year you have to have the intention of hitting the ground running, but with Italy that truly is the case now.  That's how serious they are strategically in the scheme of things throughout the 6N.  

You can't afford to play them with half an eye on France the following week.  If we do that, we're cooked in this contest because Italy WILL give other contenders BIG scores as they weaken through the contest.  Big scores will be a factor if no side dominates.  
We have to hit them with everything we have and pummel them into fatigue so that we can score liberally.  Only then can we begin to think about being more coy, crafty and energy conscious with the French.  If we only beat Italy by a score in a low scoring 'warm-up' game then we'll be lucky to end up 2nd or 3rd at the very best by the end.

Italy are the key weak side in the competition and must be utilised coldly for that purpose by us, because others certainly will.

I don't think we are going to be in condition to get a big win. I think if we play at our best we will get a comfortable win, and not getting a big winning margin won't be evidence of having an eye on France. Rather it's just the expected outcome.

Reasons; relatively neophyte front row, serious issue for us at 10, Italy start strong and get worse.

I will be very impressed if we get a big win. I expect it to be a very hard game.

Me too. If we can come away with a 10-20+ points cushion then it will be job well done but key thing is the win.

Pretty tricky one to start with away from home and with one eye on France next week.The key things are the set piece, which wasn't great in the autumn and how the half backs go minus Sexton - goal kicking will be really important.

The fixtures are pretty unkind actually with 3 very hard games coming up, and no one wants Italy first when they are strongest - whereas the winner of Fridays game really has a really good run for the title.

I'm actually hoping - and thinking - and this might be the very first time I've said this since the 6N began - that Italy truly might be a more difficult package all round this season.  I don't know why but it's just a building hunch that they'll have more competition stamina this season.

And I'm actually hoping they have because I too will be pleasantly surprised if we run circles around them in the first game and score heavily.  I can't see it happening right now and so because of that I'm hoping that the Italians are in a mood to be competitive for longer this season and again do some 'surprises' down the line like the France game two seasons ago.
If Ireland need to warm up into this contest, and if Italy are always strongest at the beginning, then we need an Italy that won't be a push over for any side.  This might be the season when Brunel coaxes more steel still from his men.
So - in brief - if it's a tight game between us - then I hope the basterdes go on and be honest in giving all the others a tight game too!