Union controlled rugby

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/european-cup/sexton-agreement-with-denis-o-brien-confirms-irfu-s-strategy-1.1929917

I thought the idea of Union controlled teams, central contracts and branches was that everything flowed under the Union. Why then, if this model is the model to follow, is there still a need for private investors to be paying for the best players to stay in a Union controlled nation?

Jonathan Sexton’s commercial agreement with Denis O’Brien, which played a significant role in bringing the Ireland outhalf back to Leinster next season, confirms the new IRFU strategy of keeping hold of their most precious commodities.

Basically, the provinces can now top up central contracts with private funding.

The first deal of this kind was brokered last January by Jamie Heaslip’s agent, Damien O’Donohoe of Ikon. This was allowed to avoid the loss of another marquee Irish player following Sexton signing for Racing Metro 92. Heaslip was able to spurn the advances of Toulon while maintaining his status as the highest-paid player in Irish rugby when Leinster chief executive Mick Dawson arranged for him to become a Bank of Ireland brand ambassador.

This saw Heaslip sell his image rights to secure a contract believed to be worth close to €600,000, presuming the number eight plays a certain number of games each season and achieves other targets, aligned to team success.

Approximately 10 per cent of Heaslip’s salary is funded by Leinster’s main sponsor

Was going to start a thread on it myself. I don't like it either but its hardly a surprise.

I would prefer we just paid players what we could afford, but it seems we do not have the finances to do that and retain the best players. The answer to your question is fairly obvious- there are club sides, especially in France, who are wealthier than us and are willing to throw around sums the IRFU struggles to match alone.

Just like in England, France and Wales rich benefactors are being looked to to help fund marquee players. For me, this is worrying. It's not exactly a deal with the devil but it's damn close. Denis O'Brien is a very shady character. But the IRFU, being pragmatic, must be desperate enough.

Reassuringly though, the Union retains control over the terms of the contract because they are still footing the majority of the bill. Denis O'Brien is also famous for helping to pay Giovanni Trapattonis contract with the FAI. What does he get out of it? Trying to rehabilitate his tarnished public image? Maybe its just chicken feed to him.

Notch,

I agree that not many can compete with the French in financial terms but with rgeards our Regions the rich benefactors that you mention are not funding one individual player they are and have been funding the Region.

Wasn't Howlett brought in with the aid of private sponsorship? I vaguely remember some one saying something like that when the question was asked how Munster could afford to bring him in.

Thing is this is completely different to anything like dual contracts. This is additional sponsorship and image rights. It 'should' be between the players and their sponsors.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Notch,

I agree that not many can compete with the French in financial terms but with rgeards our Regions the rich benefactors that you mention are not funding one individual player they are and have been funding the Region.

Yes, it's certainly different. There are a lot of differences between this and the way rich men are bankrolling the game in other nations. I just wonder if O'Briens involvement in helping fund big contracts for the FAI and now the IRFU isn't just a way of trying to improve his public image.

Just a caution to posters - Denis O'Brien is a notoriously thin skinned and litigious individual so even on a fan's forum be careful what you say about him. He has issued umpteen libel suits against the media in Ireland

Is this opening Pandora's Box?

Up to now the IRFU have always said 'stay because we'll pay you as much as we can, look after you from a health and welfare point of view and you'll get to stay in the environment you are most comfortable with'.

Now they are indicating to up and coming stars that if they are sought after enough they might be able to find a rich benefactor to top up the package.

How many 'rich benefactors' are there in a country like Ireland and will it drive players who otherwise would have been happy to stay at home into the arms of French clubs if the IRFU decide a certain player isn't worth it?

Are they going to find sugar daddies for Zebo, Murray, McGrath, Toner, Jackson etc in years to come?

this smells very bad.

why would your union want to be associated with an allegedly corrupt tax exile who lives in Malta?

what is he getting out of this? how is this going to reflect well on the IRFU?

guess this reveals the truth of the financial situation that the IRFU are in if they need to turn to DOB for funds. not quite as rosy as some would have us believe.

how is this not going to put upwards pressure on pay packages for the rest of the centrally contracted players?

MunsterMac wrote:Are they going to find sugar daddies for Zebo, Murray, McGrath, Toner, Jackson etc in years to come?

This is my big concern. Is this short termism? I don't like where it could be going. The IRFU think they can control it but if the lucre on offer from France keeps increasing year on year the pressure will increase.

quinsforever wrote:this smells very bad.

why would your union want to be associated with an allegedly corrupt tax exile who lives in Malta?

what is he getting out of this? how is this going to reflect well on the IRFU?

guess this reveals the truth of the financial situation that the IRFU are in if they need to turn to DOB for funds. not quite as rosy as some would have us believe.

how is this not going to put upwards pressure on pay packages for the rest of the centrally contracted players?

Wharabourh (Dublinese ) Russian Oligarchs who never seem to work, don't look like a guys who ever liked to work and yet have amassed  dubious fortunes in oil wealth from somewhere and by some means.... and who like English football?

Wharabourh them lads?

Plus................... didn't a few people here on these pages tell me I was an idiot for claiming that the AP/PRL salary cap would be the next target for McCafferty after the resolution of the European competition issue?  Didn't a few people say straight to my face that there was no evidence that it would happen or could happen and that I was being foolish for always bringing it up?   And yet....don't I hear news lately that it's getting started already, the watering down of restrictive salary caps?

Hmmm...........it's bad karma all round folks.  BUT.......it's a market place innit?  Isn't that what we all were told.  It's all bizzniss and bottom dollar economics from here on in.  Well, in that environment, you gotta find a way to compete or die.  I guess the tax exile in Malta is helping IRFU compete in the cruel cruel world of "It's money innit" idealism.

with private clubs, owners come and go, and most dont make any money.

it's just a bit wierd to see the union hooring itself out to individuals in order to keep players at clubs...

overseas players can still play for their country, like sexton did last year.

I don't see what the problem is with it. If millionaires want to throw money at Irish rugby then fine as long as they don't have a say in its running.

brennomac wrote:Just a caution to posters - Denis O'Brien is a notoriously thin skinned and litigious individual so even on a fan's forum be careful what you say about him.  He has issued umpteen libel suits against the media in Ireland

Yes he is very sensitive about his public image hence it is most definitely a publicity stunt. The money is nothing to him yet he gets good rep from people.

This is an awful move. If it's not stopped we're going to end up with a football situation where players are owned by consortiums and lengthy legal battles for their services.

The provinces are going to put themselves in very awkard situations and there is lots of potential for overreaching themselves and being at the beck and call of these investors. He who pays the piper...

The IRB need to stamp down on this quickly.

quinsforever wrote:with private clubs, owners come and go, and most dont make any money.

it's just a bit wierd to see the union hooring itself out to individuals in order to keep players at clubs...

overseas players can still play for their country, like sexton did last year.

Yeah, but why play for Racing to do well in the new super shiney European Cup when you could help your old home buckeneers do the bizz instead. It's all about Nationalism, Quins Why help the French when you can help yourselves?

This is what Toulon do with all their big name signings to avoid the salary cap, So the IRFU need to do whatever they can to keep the players in the country.

With the way the game is going the IRFU model was never going to be sustainable and this was always going to happen. I'm just surprised it has taken this long.

Cyril wrote:This is an awful move. If it's not stopped we're going to end up with a football situation where players are owned by consortiums and lengthy legal battles for their services.

The provinces are going to put themselves in very awkard situations and there is lots of potential for overreaching themselves and being at the beck and call of these investors. He who pays the piper...

The IRB need to stamp down on this quickly.

Why? And let the Ruskies win all the Chess games???? That's much too submissive for my S&M tastes.

Also, yep...spot on about the Piper.... the RFU are feeling the sting of that one right now with their ambitious childer, the PRL.

As long as any private investors aren't able to meddle in the affairs of IRFU, and its branches, I don't see an issue here at all.
If investors want to support the IRFU, a Province, a player, for love of the game here, or to score brownie points for whatever reason, then great. I'm all for it, as we will need these investors to compete with player wage inflation in PRL/T14.

and what about the next 10 best Irish players? are they going to have to threaten to go overseas a la Sexton and Heaslip to get these off-market deals?

and i would be very worried about what O'Brien is getting out of this. he didnt make EUR3billion by being an idiot.

and what do the munster and ulster fans feel about this?

quinsforever wrote:and what about the next 10 best Irish players? are they going to have to threaten to go overseas a la Sexton and Heaslip to get these off-market deals?

and i would be very worried about what O'Brien is getting out of this. he didnt make EUR3billion by being an idiot.

and what do the munster and ulster fans feel about this?

Quiet apprehension.

quinsforever wrote:and what about the next 10 best Irish players? are they going to have to threaten to go overseas a la Sexton and Heaslip to get these off-market deals?

and i would be very worried about what O'Brien is getting out of this. he didnt make EUR3billion by being an idiot.

and what do the munster and ulster fans feel about this?

The word is O'Brien is going to be allowed coach and select the Irish squad for two of the five Six Nations games next Spring.  So really, nothing for the rest of you to worry about.  O'Brien loves the thought of Earls as Hooker so...............  let him at it, I say, if you're a fan of any other team.

[quote="SecretFly"][quote="quinsforever"]and what about the next 10 best Irish players? are they going to have to threaten to go overseas a la Sexton and Heaslip to get these off-market deals?

Gareth Thomas has stated something similar with the new dual contracts that have now been agreed in Wales, lets say you are Priestland and don't get a dual contract to you the say stuff it and take a possible deal outside of Wales?

bedfordwelsh wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:and what about the next 10 best Irish players? are they going to have to threaten to go overseas a la Sexton and Heaslip to get these off-market deals?

Gareth Thomas has stated something similar with the new dual contracts that have now been agreed in Wales, lets say you are Priestland and don't get a dual contract to you the say stuff it and take a possible deal outside of Wales?

That's going to happen anyway regardless of dual contracts, or private investors. I don't like it, but those advocating the business model of T14/PRL should be overjoyed.

Sometimes the same market forces that pull players over to France might push them back towards their home country. Boudjellal isn't getting enough bang for his buck out of Halfpenny

http://balls.ie/rugby/leigh-halfpennys-contract-could-be-terminated-by-toulon/

That isn't very reassuring if you are a player who wants to move over to Toulon; even if the money is good, likely far better than what you can get at home, you might not find that the grass is greener in every sense. Private investment and the details of the contract aside I think thats what brought Sexton back. If he loved it over there, and if he didn't care about how the Top14 affected his international career, he wouldn't have been bothered with the IRFUs offer which is still the lesser offer in terms of money than the one he turned down. And then his agent managed to secure all of the things mentioned in the OP.

I fear that the IRFU are a bit too reluctant to call players bluffs after the backlash they got for letting Sexton leave in the first place. It wasn't good to lose Sexton in the first place, no, but it's also potentially unwise to invite external investment into the system when that might open another different pandora's box.

I suppose what the IRFU are most afraid of is that the success we have could turn out to be ephemeral if the wrong decisions are made or we suffer a player drain like the regions have. The crowing we engage in over our system reminds me of the Celtic Tiger sometimes. Everyone was so invested in that bubble they never expected it pop. Sometimes we rugby fans are like that with our successful provincial and international sides. The IRFU have a great product and have experienced many years of increasing interest in the sport of rugby at every level. But they are aware of how quickly attendances and interest could drop if the best players all decided to leave. And thus, they resort to desperate measures.

One thing is for sure. Running a rugby union with central contracts is a high-wire balancing act. There are dangers either way.

Munchkin wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:and what about the next 10 best Irish players? are they going to have to threaten to go overseas a la Sexton and Heaslip to get these off-market deals?

Gareth Thomas has stated something similar with the new dual contracts that have now been agreed in Wales, lets say you are Priestland and don't get a dual contract to you the say stuff it and take a possible deal outside of Wales?

That's going to happen anyway regardless of dual contracts, or private investors. I don't like it, but those advocating the business model of T14/PRL should be overjoyed.

Why would supporter of the PRL be overjoyed? This model of dual contracts and players being owned by rich individuals is nothing like that in the PRL. In the PRL players are contracted to clubs. The clubs are subject to a salary cap which is mutually agreed by all clubs. As income increases the cap is increased. There are bonus systems in place for playing English qualified players. This has resulted in 70% of players being from England. It has also resulted in more English talent coming forward each year. I fail to see why it is an inferior model.

The T14 model is somewhat different and is having a disastrous impact on the French national team.

http://www.cityam.com/1410799227/premiership-rugby-salary-cap-rise-could-tempt-england-stars-france-return

Perhaps not an inferior model but one that, like others, keeps rising the limits in order to stay with the limit risers.....

So in the end, everyone keeps upping the price to stay with teams that keep upping the price. It's a self-perpetuator and if you're not in on the 'keep with 'em game in some way, you'll fall badly.

I can fully understand the IRFU position on this, and although I would much prefer they didn't have to rely on private investment, I believe it's a position that is forced upon them as they search for ways to compete with T14/PRL player wage inflation.
As an alternative the IRFU could rule out private investment, and top up wages themselves, but this would have a negative impact on grassroots rugby in Ireland, and quite possibly undo all the good work, and progress, built up over recent years, which in turn will set us back years in terms of development.
The bubble being heavily invested in at the moment is the T14, and I believe that bubble will burst in time. Until it does maybe private investment is the best possible solution for IRFU to remain competitive, and continue to grow the game in Ireland? Is there a better alternative?

SecretFly wrote:http://www.cityam.com/1410799227/premiership-rugby-salary-cap-rise-could-tempt-england-stars-france-return

Perhaps not an inferior model but one that, like others, keeps rising the limits in order to stay with the limit risers.....

So in the end, everyone keeps upping the price to stay with teams that keep upping the price.  It's a self-perpetuator and if you're not in on the 'keep with 'em game in some way, you'll fall badly.

I have some sympathy with that but in a professional sport it is probably inevitable. The English model does seem a bit more straightforward than involving stray businessmen to own the players. Will they get to decide which matches they play in? I'm bringing a few of my business contacts to the match on Saturday so make sure my boy is playing.

I thought we had established in previous conversations that the Irish teams were already better funded than the PRL clubs

lostinwales wrote:I thought we had established in previous conversations that the Irish teams were already better funded than the PRL clubs

LOL. that was sin e's hobbyhorse based on his reading of their accounts.

surely the way to get private investment into irish rugby if the model is so good is at the top, directly into the IRFU, and let them decide how to deploy it, no?

this private sponsorship/subsidising of individual players may have unintended consequences. province disharmony, national team disharmony as others want top-ups or similar deals are not available for everyone so certain players feel snubbed.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:and what about the next 10 best Irish players? are they going to have to threaten to go overseas a la Sexton and Heaslip to get these off-market deals?

Gareth Thomas has stated something similar with the new dual contracts that have now been agreed in Wales, lets say you are Priestland and don't get a dual contract to you the say stuff it and take a possible deal outside of Wales?

The player could still go anyway if the French clubs offered more. We have been living with this for longer than any other nation in the 6N so at least we are used to it now, it will not be long until we see all the best players playing in France, or if the English scrap the salary cap, they will play in England, the Irish proveinces might as well just get used to it, unless they can get more money from somewhere.

lostinwales wrote:I thought we had established in previous conversations that the Irish teams were already better funded than the PRL clubs

???

Megamucho BT PRL against bargain basement Pro12er Provinces? Ya gotta be kidding me.

actually the big 3 provinces have higher player salaries than the current PRL salary cap, once central contract payments are added in. from memory it was about 8m euros per team vs gbp5m for PRL.

http://balls.ie/rugby/report-toulon-are-trying-to-tempt-cian-healy/

Now the next test for the IRFU begins. To be honest, they can't win. If he goes they'll be criticised and it'll hurt them. If they do whatever it takes to keep him, including making a deal with the devil, they'll also be criticised.

I say let him go and negotiate with them, all the while publicly talking up Jack McGraths chances of starting for Ireland in the World Cup.

Notch wrote:http://balls.ie/rugby/report-toulon-are-trying-to-tempt-cian-healy/

Now the next test for the IRFU begins. To be honest, they can't win. If he goes they'll be criticised and it'll hurt them. If they do whatever it takes to keep him, including making a deal with the devil, they'll also be criticised.

I say let him go and negotiate with them, all the while publicly talking up Jack McGraths chances of starting for Ireland in the World Cup.

Surely you would want all your best players playing in Ireland no matter what ? you would not want to end up like us now would you ?

Its going to be like that every year now with Irish players being linked abroad. Best not to pay any attention to it, if he wants to stay he'll stay.

Em................ I'd need proof of the small print accountancy details of the top five or six PRL sides and the top three Provinces, Quins.  I mean totality budgets not just main salary fund.  Would we ever get such detail?  Doubt it.

From four (mostly three) Provinces we have to select our International squad so obviously the players there already are much more essential than in England where the constant stream of high quality players makes the individual importance of any individual player less important and therefore less able to demand big stay-at-home money.
But we all know much more goes into a sucessful club than the players on the field.  There's the science and conditioning excellence and coaching excellence that never comes cheap.  I'd need to see the full accounts before I'd accept three of the Irish provinces outmatch the budgets of the top four or five AP teams.

LordDowlais wrote:

Notch wrote:http://balls.ie/rugby/report-toulon-are-trying-to-tempt-cian-healy/

Now the next test for the IRFU begins. To be honest, they can't win. If he goes they'll be criticised and it'll hurt them. If they do whatever it takes to keep him, including making a deal with the devil, they'll also be criticised.

I say let him go and negotiate with them, all the while publicly talking up Jack McGraths chances of starting for Ireland in the World Cup.

Surely you would want all your best players playing in Ireland ? you would not want to end up like us now would you ?

Yes, we do. But as I said it's a high wire act. We can't stop him talking to whoever he wants. We can only use the bargaining chips we have- and the suggestion a move abroad will damage your Ireland chances is a powerful one.

The thing with the Leinster guys is this; they've won everything they can at Leinster, but there's a lot more they can win with Ireland. So they might feel like its time to move on from Leinster for a new challenge and come back but that unfortunately detracts from their international aspirations because they are outside the supervision of the Irish Player Management Programme and will miss training camps that fall outside the international windows.

SecretFly wrote:Em................ I'd need proof of the small print accountancy details of the top five or six PRL sides and the top three Provinces, Quins.  I mean totality budgets not just main salary fund.  Would we ever get such detail?  Doubt it.

From four (mostly three) Provinces we have to select our International squad so obviously the players there already are much more essential than in England where the constant stream of high quality players makes the individual importance of any individual player less important and therefore less able to demand big stay-at-home money.
But we all know much more goes into a sucessful club than the players on the field.  There's the science and conditioning excellence and coaching excellence that never comes cheap.  I'd need to see the full accounts before I'd accept three of the Irish provinces outmatch the budgets of the top four or five AP teams.

i read somewhere on the internet that the PRL clubs all stick to the salary cap.

Exiledinborders wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:and what about the next 10 best Irish players? are they going to have to threaten to go overseas a la Sexton and Heaslip to get these off-market deals?

Gareth Thomas has stated something similar with the new dual contracts that have now been agreed in Wales, lets say you are Priestland and don't get a dual contract to you the say stuff it and take a possible deal outside of Wales?

That's going to happen anyway regardless of dual contracts, or private investors. I don't like it, but those advocating the business model of T14/PRL should be overjoyed.

Why would supporter of the PRL be overjoyed? This model of dual contracts and players being owned by rich individuals is nothing like that in the PRL. In the PRL players are contracted to clubs. The clubs are subject to a salary cap which is mutually agreed by all clubs. As income increases the cap is increased.  There are bonus systems in place for playing English qualified players.  This has resulted in 70% of players being from England. It has also resulted in more English talent coming forward each year. I fail to see why it is an inferior model.

The T14 model is somewhat different and is having a disastrous impact on the French national team.  

I was specifically referring to those who support the private ownership of clubs, rather than PRL rugby supporters. I am probably being a little unfair. Not all who do support private ownership of clubs want to see a dramatic increase in player wage inflation, or indeed player drain from clubs, and nations, who are unable to compete financially.
IRFU can also claim to retaining most of its players, and encouraging new talents through the ranks, and it can do this while being in control of the Provinces which have enjoyed a fantastic measure of success at European level, relative to its size.

SecretFly wrote:http://www.cityam.com/1410799227/premiership-rugby-salary-cap-rise-could-tempt-england-stars-france-return

Perhaps not an inferior model but one that, like others, keeps rising the limits in order to stay with the limit risers.....

So in the end, everyone keeps upping the price to stay with teams that keep upping the price.  It's a self-perpetuator and if you're not in on the 'keep with 'em game in some way, you'll fall badly.

As I said above I accept that but now others are suggesting that the Irish provinces have more money than the English clubs. So it may be the French and Irish that are upping the price and the English clubs desperately trying to keep up. It appears that the English are the victims now. Makes a change.

As things stand the LNR is a juggernaut that will not stop of its own volition and can only be curtailed by enforced rules by the IRB / FFR which would have to apply broadly to all other leagues i.e. salary caps, number of foreign players etc.

If left as is all of the top players in the world will end up playing in the French League (or English League if they relax their rules) within 5 / 10 years in the same way that all the top footballers in the world play in 2 or 3 European leagues.

Eventually money and lifestyle (and basic supply / demand economics) will win out.

You can't blame the IRFU for exploring all means of keeping their players at home but the 'sugar daddy' route is at best only a short term solution and eventually they might have to examine other possible models.

This contribution from Toulon chief Morad Boudjellal is an interesting vision of the possible future.

http://www.rugby365.com/article/62138-toulon-summon-boks-with-threats

Exiledinborders wrote:

SecretFly wrote:http://www.cityam.com/1410799227/premiership-rugby-salary-cap-rise-could-tempt-england-stars-france-return

Perhaps not an inferior model but one that, like others, keeps rising the limits in order to stay with the limit risers.....

So in the end, everyone keeps upping the price to stay with teams that keep upping the price.  It's a self-perpetuator and if you're not in on the 'keep with 'em game in some way, you'll fall badly.

As I said above I accept that but now others are suggesting that the Irish provinces have more money than the English clubs. So it may be the French and Irish that are upping the price and the English clubs desperately trying to keep up. It appears that the English are the victims now. Makes a change.

I choose to read it this way - and if you looked up most of my posts over the months in these kinds of areas, you'll find me consistently saying this.

The salary cap was always an issue. It was always an issue because even before the fallout about the ERC and the PRL and LNR etc.... before all that, there was an acknowledgement that the Top14 was becoming something of a runaway engine in terms of the wages it was allowing itself to furnish on the best players from around the world.

That was always an issue and it certainly became a factor in the European framework as increasingly French sides sent out Harlem Globetrotter Super sides against English, Irish and other sides.  And everyone knew that was at least one of the real 'unfairnesses' that existed in a European context.

BUT, when the PRL came out fighting about the injustices of the European contest - did they ever mention the Top 14 unfair advantage?  Nope - they chose to fully concentrate on the perceived injustices of the Pro12 format.

So there you go - the salary cap pressure rears its head again, when I promised it would do - but too late for it ever to be part of any discussions or solution on a pan European base.  And I believe that's just why it never came up, because TOP 14 didn't want it to come up, but neither did the PRL want it to come up, because McCafferty knew he didn't want to curtail the French but to use the French to pressure for the ending or easing of caps in AP.

So, when the PRL had a chance to form a coalition of the willing with the Pro12 to put pressure on the French and their capless capping system, they chose instead to first side with the French and put all the pressure on Pro12.  

The PRL can hardly complain now that other sides are finding creative ways to keep up with the French.

SecretFly wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

SecretFly wrote:http://www.cityam.com/1410799227/premiership-rugby-salary-cap-rise-could-tempt-england-stars-france-return

Perhaps not an inferior model but one that, like others, keeps rising the limits in order to stay with the limit risers.....

So in the end, everyone keeps upping the price to stay with teams that keep upping the price.  It's a self-perpetuator and if you're not in on the 'keep with 'em game in some way, you'll fall badly.

As I said above I accept that but now others are suggesting that the Irish provinces have more money than the English clubs. So it may be the French and Irish that are upping the price and the English clubs desperately trying to keep up. It appears that the English are the victims now. Makes a change.

I choose to read it this way - and if you looked up most of my posts over the months in these kinds of areas, you'll find me consistently saying this.

The salary cap was always an issue. It was always an issue because even before the fallout about the ERC and the PRL and LNR etc.... before all that, there was an acknowledgement that the Top14 was becoming something of a runaway engine in terms of the wages it was allowing itself to furnish on the best players from around the world.

That was always an issue and it certainly became a factor in the European framework as increasingly French sides sent out Harlem Globetrotter Super sides against English, Irish and other sides.  And everyone knew that was at least one of the real 'unfairnesses' that existed in a European context.

BUT, when the PRL came out fighting about the injustices of the European contest - did they ever mention the Top 14 unfair advantage?  Nope - they chose to fully concentrate on the perceived injustices of the Pro12 format.

So there you go - the salary cap pressure rears its head again, when I promised it would do - but too late for it ever to be part of any discussions or solution on a pan European base.  And I believe that's just why it never came up, because TOP 14 didn't want it to come up, but neither did the PRL want it to come up, because McCafferty knew he didn't want to curtail the French but to use the French to pressure for the ending or easing of caps in AP.

So, when the PRL had a chance to form a coalition of the willing with the Pro12 to put pressure on the French and their capless capping system, they chose instead to first side with the French and put all the pressure on Pro12.  

The PRL can hardly complain now that other sides are finding creative ways to keep up with the French.

But that only makes sense in the context of these little side deals which seem to be a recent innovation. My point is that it appears that the Irish provinces have been better funded than English clubs for some time. If so it is a bit rich to complain when English clubs ask for a fairer share of European revenues so they can compete financially with Irish and French.

I am not saying English are morally superior to Irish but the cant coming out of Ireland in recent months about the rugby family and the poor Celts looks a bit odd when you hear that the Irish have been better funded all the time and just wanted to maintain their advantage. Fair enough if they look after their own interests but they should not play the victim.

Still doesn't answer why PRL when they were so aggitated about the unfairnesses in Europe never mentioned once the French propensity to have bottomless pockets of money - that was ultimately much more than they allowed themselves and even much more than the Pro12 allowed themselves (including the filthy rich Irish Provinces!)

Why?  Why did McCafferty never once try to mention the other injustices that existed when his sides fought in European rugby not only against Pro12 sides but Top14 sides too?  

He didn't because he chose sides/allies - and the side he chose was the moneybucks side of the coin (Top14) because he was and still is intent on mimicing that model.  Capless capping to compete with Top14 and buy out the Pro12

Notch wrote:Reassuringly though, the Union retains control over the terms of the contract because they are still footing the majority of the bill. Denis O'Brien is also famous for helping to pay Giovanni Trapattonis contract with the FAI. What does he get out of it? Trying to rehabilitate his tarnished public image? Maybe its just chicken feed to him.

While I don't like O'Brien, in fairness to him, he keeps his head down and won't interfere in the running of rugby like Bruce Craig and the Toulon nutter.

Its just a PR stunt to improve his image. He was Chairman of the Special Olympics a while back.

Must be embarassing for Leinster fans though to have a Corkman sub them

Exiledinborders wrote:But that only makes sense in the context of these little side deals which seem to be a recent innovation. My point is that it appears that the Irish provinces have been better funded than English clubs for some time.  If so it is a bit rich to complain when English clubs ask for a fairer share of European revenues so they can compete financially with Irish and French.

I am not saying English are morally superior to Irish but the cant coming out of Ireland in recent months about the rugby family and the poor Celts looks a bit odd when you hear that the Irish have been better funded all the time and just wanted to maintain their advantage. Fair enough if they look after their own interests but they should not play the victim.

In fairness, the IRFU & WRU take a hit for the Scots & Welsh when it comes to the shareing out the proceeds of the Heineken Cup.

SecretFly wrote:

Cyril wrote:This is an awful move. If it's not stopped we're going to end up with a football situation where players are owned by consortiums and lengthy legal battles for their services.

The provinces are going to put themselves in very awkard situations and there is lots of potential for overreaching themselves and being at the beck and call of these investors. He who pays the piper...

The IRB need to stamp down on this quickly.

Why?  And let the Ruskies win all the Chess games????  That's much too submissive for my S&M tastes.

Also, yep...spot on about the Piper.... the RFU are feeling the sting of that one right now with their ambitious childer, the PRL.

I might have known something like this would be a good idea if Irish sides did it

Cyril wrote:I might have known something like this would be a good idea if Irish sides did it

We've had good teachers in the English for a long time.  "We need more teams in the HEC, so it's a good idea."  "We need more sides in the HEC again so it's a good thing again."  "We need more money from the HEC, we don't need the ERC, we need less Pro12 sides and we need a bigger organisational influence for the PRL and it's a bloody good idea"

Yep...we learned it all from you guys, Cyril. Always plead "It's a good idea" if you think up something that might benefit you to the detriment of others.

I was actually going to write a post about this sort of thing a while back before this had even come out. O'Brien paid half of Trapatonnis salary when he was manager of the soccer team. Some rich fella paid for spanking new medical facilities for Leinster in UCD I think. Doesn't Rory McIlroy donate money towards wages in Ulster?

I was going to ask if this sort of thing happens in other countries or not or is it unique to Ireland? I was also actually going to suggest similar private money helping Ireland compete in terms of wages, which actually seems to have happened now. So I wasn't the only one who thought of it then.

Denis O'Brien will have no say in how many games Sexton plays or where he plays or if he plays. That would be ridiculous. But if he wants to make a generous donation then the IRFU should take it. I don't know what his reasons are. Whether he's just a sports/rugby fan or because he thinks it will make people like him, who cares? The provinces should definitely accept financial support from any wealthy individuals who want to help.

Without being to knowledgable about this sort of thing, I would be pretty sure there is absolutely nothing any of us outside France can do about French wages. We just have to deal with it. Deal with it by keeping up out of your own pocket and you'll end up bankrupt. Deal with it by accepting inevitable loss of all your players and you end up a feeder club to France with no aspiration to conquer Europe ever. Finding a way to boost what you can offer players without ruining your finances is a pretty good idea. Whether that's through private investment or negotiating better sponsorship or TV deals. One idea I've had is something that I don't believe has been tried in rugby before.

The Barcelona model, where fans pay an annual membership fee, in order to have voting rights in club decisions like electing a president. This could be a huge revenue stream for the provinces. Because they have huge numbers of fans. I would say there are about a million people in the world who would identify themselves as Leinster fans, easily. If a fraction of these were willing to hand over a hundred quid a year in return for a say in the running of the province, a hell of a lot of money could be raised. And giving fans a say would be a good thing. Who cares about the future of the team more than the fans?

Feckless Rogue wrote:Denis O'Brien will have no say in how many games Sexton plays or where he plays or if he plays. That would be ridiculous. But if he wants to make a generous donation then the IRFU should take it. I don't know what his reasons are. Whether he's just a sports/rugby fan or because he thinks it will make people like him, who cares? The provinces should definitely accept financial support from any wealthy individuals who want to help.

I think you should care. It's not often someone 'donates' a lot of money without wanting something in return or a certain level of control. The danger is becoming reliant on this income and then being beholden to the provider.

More levels of interference and control mean more complications and potential conflicts of interest.

Sometimes things look too good to be true because they are. I would have thought the much lauded 'purity' of the Irish union-led system wouldn't want to contaminated by this type of agreement.

Or maybe you're just as greedy as the rest of us