A B&I league

This global state of flux is unlikely to settle down in the foreseeable future. The entry of sevens at the Rio Olympics will tug more strongly at the game’s seams, as will the start of a revised European club competition this autumn. The Premiership salary cap is set to allow for a second “marquee player” from overseas next season, placing a strain on clubs whose spending does not reach the current ceiling.

It is all symptomatic of the same thing: union’s impatience for growth, on and off the field, at a crucial stage of the professional game’s development. Senior officials from the bigger English clubs are already openly speculating that a strong, combined British and Irish league, pitting Leinster, Munster and Ulster – for instance – against Leicester, Saracens and Northampton on a more regular basis, could evolve in the not-too-distant future. One suggestion is to have 24 elite teams split into two divisions of 12 apiece (four Irish, four Welsh, two Scots and 14 English) with two up, two down promotion/relegation between the two each season. Better attended – and potentially fewer – games are being sought by administrators and players’ union officials.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2014/sep/16/global-leaders-rugby-union-impatience-growth


The season has just begun and theres already talk about a B&I league. A Welsh journalist mentioned it the other day now the guardian. Its bound to come unless the English game takes off like the French game. I think the French league is actually the main force behind it because they're inflating all prices.

A no brainer. Needs to happen or we're all flucked.

Makes a euro cup less special.

 Disagree about it needs to happen.

 If anything it could damage some English clubs.

 Will clubs in the second tier be able to get as many supporters to watch them play "2nd division rugby"?

Proximity and rivalry between English teams means significant away support. Going to the B+I model you wonder if it will still be there. Of course there will always be decent crowds for the best ties but there is a rarity value which could easily be lost with over exposure

I'm happy with the Pro 12 as it is to be honest. Welsh fans should be careful what they wish for because most of their teams could end up in the second division of a B&I league.

If they are going down that road of having divisions then I would prefer a Euro league where teams from developing nations get invited in and are given a chance to develop as well as funding to help them get off the ground.

Let's stick with what we have for a few seasons. AP seems to be working well and producing talent.

It would be a good replacement for the European competitions that won't take place when the IRB sanction France for caving in to the boss of Toulon over player release. As per the recent post.

Pro12 didn't let us down (Irish - yes, I'm being bluntly to the point as I can only speak for us)
The AP - seems the English are getting happier and happier with their League
And as for the French - Top14 seems like their Holy Grail

So that leaves the Welsh who seem in a bit of a fix but one that seems finally to have rounded a bend and at least they'll feel more settled and ready to concentrate on rugby again in the near future.
And the Scots - with only two sides, it's always going to be a struggle to keep on an even keel -although Glasgow are certainly finding consistency of quality for the last few seasons.

Italians - who would struggle to find a footing in any league but should still be welcome in one of the leagues.

I think the Pro12 has enough creative teeth, sponsorship interest and ability to grow now for it to stay as it is... for Irish dominance of it to be genuinely challenged (much as that maddens me! ) and for us - The Welsh, the Scots, the Irish and Italians - to really present a unique brand of rugby for the European audience to enjoy, just as they enjoy Top14 and AP.  

There is room for all three - they all produce subtle differences in approach and styles of rugby played.

I think the Welsh would be mad not to join a League with the English and possibly the Scots too.

Yes there may be teething problems but long term there are nothing but positives eg good old Anglo / Welsh rivalry (which might even be the glue that the regions need to finally gain some traction), geographic location / proximity leading to decent away crowds, greater potential financial benefits, better TV deal / money etc. It works in football.

Ultimately I think it will make sense for the Italians to join the French League again given geographic location / proximity and the fact that even if they were in the Pro D2 they'd probably be able to make more money.

The Pro 12 was always a concoct of necessity but I think it will always be limited by its international makeup which results in poor away fan numbers, complicated TV deals and lack of potential expansion / renewal (no relegation / promotion).

MunsterMac wrote:I think the Welsh would be mad not to join a League with the English and possibly the Scots too.

Yes there may be teething problems but long term there are nothing but positives eg good old Anglo / Welsh rivalry (which might even be the glue that the regions need to finally gain some traction), geographic location / proximity leading to decent away crowds, greater potential financial benefits, better TV deal / money etc. It works in football.

Ultimately I think it will make sense for the Italians to join the French League again given geographic location / proximity and the fact that even if they were in the Pro D2 they'd probably be able to make more money.

The Pro 12 was always a concoct of necessity but I think it will always be limited by its international makeup which results in poor away fan numbers, complicated TV deals and lack of potential expansion / renewal (no relegation / promotion).

If this is the way Munster fans are thinking than no wonder their crowds are in a steep decline!

Glasgow and Connacht are proof that the Pro 12 model can work. All the Welsh regions need is a bit of success and the crowds will flock to the games, it really is as simple as that. Just look the Ospreys, after they won the league they got over 10k to a game against Ulster and over 13k to the Leicester HC game the following season. IF they had had a good HC campaign last year and kept hold of their top players they could easily be averaging 9-10k a game.

Welly wrote:Makes a euro cup less special.

 Disagree about it needs to happen.

 If anything it could damage some English clubs.

 Will clubs in the second tier be able to get as many supporters to watch them play "2nd division rugby"?

Completely agree. It will dilute the Rugby Champions Cup as sides will be so used to playing each other. I'm glad English rugby is big enough to support its own league and really enjoy watching the AP (more each season).

Better Apart!

It seems this might be an English, Irish, and French 'Better Apart' campaign so far.

Strange bedfellows but there you go - a Union of the Disunited as it were.

SecretFly wrote:It seems this might be an English, Irish, and French 'Better Apart' campaign so far.

Strange bedfellows but there you go - a Union of the Disunited as it were.

Don't forget the Scots!

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

MunsterMac wrote:I think the Welsh would be mad not to join a League with the English and possibly the Scots too.

Yes there may be teething problems but long term there are nothing but positives eg good old Anglo / Welsh rivalry (which might even be the glue that the regions need to finally gain some traction), geographic location / proximity leading to decent away crowds, greater potential financial benefits, better TV deal / money etc. It works in football.

Ultimately I think it will make sense for the Italians to join the French League again given geographic location / proximity and the fact that even if they were in the Pro D2 they'd probably be able to make more money.

The Pro 12 was always a concoct of necessity but I think it will always be limited by its international makeup which results in poor away fan numbers, complicated TV deals and lack of potential expansion / renewal (no relegation / promotion).

If this is the way Munster fans are thinking than no wonder their crowds are in a steep decline!

Well I'm not thinking that way. But crowds are in decline alright. Whats worse for Munster is Cork fans are starting to rebel and if Munster lose those they're up the creek.

At the beginning of professionalism the English were invited to a euro league. they refused. Pro 12 is a great league - why should we no dilute it with boring English teams? only a couple of them would add quality to the pro 12 and most of then would drag down the entertainment and quality

TJ wrote:At the beginning of professionalism the English were invited to a euro league.  they refused.  Pro 12 is a great league - why should we no dilute it with boring English teams?  only a couple of them would add quality to the pro 12 and most of then would drag down the entertainment and quality

I agree who would want to watch Quins, Sarries, Leicester, Bath and Northampton when one can watch Zebre v Treviso.

Get a grip man.

Actually you can't watch Zebre vs Treviso, they've no broadcasting deal in place. Which is

One of those things, like so many others, that should have been done at the dawn of professionalism, unfortunately that ship has sailed and the various vested interests would make it impossible.
Incidentally, is there any actual evidence that playing games against English sides would increase attendances at Welsh games? I suppose the bigger clubs might bring some extra travelling support to boost numbers but would for example Scarlets V Sale get more people than Scarlets against Glasgow?

profitius wrote:I'm happy with the Pro 12 as it is to be honest. Welsh fans should be careful what they wish for because most of their teams could end up in the second division of a B&I league.
.

I'd bite yer hands off for that.

TJ wrote:At the beginning of professionalism the English were invited to a euro league.  they refused.  Pro 12 is a great league - why should we no dilute it with boring English teams?  only a couple of them would add quality to the pro 12 and most of then would drag down the entertainment and quality

Must be a troll. And a very poor one.

The Welsh clubs and the English clubs have a much longer history than any of the others, especially clubs in and around the border, I can always remember as a kid Cardiff would always play Gloucester on boxing day, I can rember as a little 8yr old my farther would take me down to Cardiff to watch it, and a lot of other clubs have history too, Newport/Bristol, Bath have a good history with Welsh clubs, and lets be honest, the French only care about their own league, so not having this new stupid euro comp with them would only be better for us, immagine the sponership deals you could get for a B&I league, I bet you would get more tele money for it as well, if this was to happen, then I would hope the WRU would do away with the regions and put our clubs back in, as there would be a LOT more interest in this and we could have the good old rivalries back.

LordDowlais wrote:The Welsh clubs and the English clubs have a much longer history than any of the others, especially clubs in and around the border, I can always remember as a kid Cardiff would always play Gloucester on boxing day, I can rember as a little 8yr old my farther would take me down to Cardiff to watch it, and a lot of other clubs have history too

The Irish don't like it but last season, Cardiff had higher attendances for 2 LV= fixtures and a friendly against English teams............ than they did against the top 3 Irish Provinces in the fully professional and meaningful Pro12.

That's how good the pro12 is.

Chunky Norwich wrote:The Irish don't like it but last season, Cardiff had higher attendances for 2 LV= fixtures and a friendly against English teams............ than they did against the top 3  Irish Provinces in the fully professional and meaningful Pro12.That's how good the pro12 is.

Who were the clubs Chunks - were the ticket prices lower for the LV and friendlies ?

Just wondering if it would be a combination of novelty value and travelling English support that boosted the numbers, rather than the desire of Cardiff fans to see English rather than Irish sides?

Irish Londoner wrote:

Who were the clubs Chunks - were the ticket prices lower for the LV and friendlies ?

Just wondering if it would be a combination of novelty value and travelling English support that boosted the numbers, rather than the desire of Cardiff fans to see English rather than Irish sides?

Sale 7015 Fr
Worcs 6823 LV
Quins 5967 LV


Muns 6122 P12
Leins 5063 P12
Ulster 7084 P12

Irish Londoner wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:The Irish don't like it but last season, Cardiff had higher attendances for 2 LV= fixtures and a friendly against English teams............ than they did against the top 3  Irish Provinces in the fully professional and meaningful Pro12.That's how good the pro12 is.

Who were the clubs Chunks - were the ticket prices lower for the LV and friendlies ?

Just wondering if it would be a combination of novelty value and travelling English support that boosted the numbers, rather than the desire of Cardiff fans to see English rather than Irish sides?

Don't encourage him/her!

Chunky Norwich wrote:

TJ wrote:At the beginning of professionalism the English were invited to a euro league.  they refused.  Pro 12 is a great league - why should we no dilute it with boring English teams?  only a couple of them would add quality to the pro 12 and most of then would drag down the entertainment and quality

Must be a troll. And a very poor one.

He isnt a troll. He might qualify as a fanatic though.

Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:The Irish don't like it but last season, Cardiff had higher attendances for 2 LV= fixtures and a friendly against English teams............ than they did against the top 3  Irish Provinces in the fully professional and meaningful Pro12.That's how good the pro12 is.

Who were the clubs Chunks - were the ticket prices lower for the LV and friendlies ?

Just wondering if it would be a combination of novelty value and travelling English support that boosted the numbers, rather than the desire of Cardiff fans to see English rather than Irish sides?

Don't encourage him/her!

Well it is on record that the English clubs earned more money on the LV games than they did playing HC. And no I dont know how it works.

Irish Londoner wrote:Incidentally, is there any actual evidence that playing games against English sides would increase attendances at Welsh games? I suppose the bigger clubs might bring some extra travelling support to boost numbers but would for example Scarlets V Sale get more people than Scarlets against Glasgow?

Given that Bath is 74miles from Swansea, Gloucester 80, Exeter 120, Northampton 150, Leicester 160 and London is 165 miles and all can be easily reached by motorway I'd imagine you'd have a far better chance of decent travelling support than you'd have for Glasgow, Munster or Treviso.  Other than Sale and Newcastle the Premiership is a relatively tight geographical group.

And as LordDowlais says above there is a history between Welsh and English club rugby.

Remember a couple of years ago when if memory serves the Ospreys and Tigers were in the same HC group? It was nearly as bad as they get when the 6N is on.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:If this is the way Munster fans are thinking than no wonder their crowds are in a steep decline!

What way?

I'm just giving my opinion as to how I would think if I were Welsh. Of course I want the Pro12 to continue as it is the only viable option for us Irish but being honest if I were a Welsh club chairman I'd bite the hand off anyone who offered my club a place in a league with the English clubs.

Apart from the greater potential financial power of the English League being part of a league where you don't have to take a plane / ferry to get to matches, where there is one TV deal and where everyone speaks the same language is far preferable to the Pro12 setup.

It might work for the Irish clubs as well although I'd imagine there wouldn't be anywhere near as many travelling fans but for the Welsh as far as I'm concerned it's a no brainer.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:
Who were the clubs Chunks - were the ticket prices lower for the LV and friendlies ?
Just wondering if it would be a combination of novelty value and travelling English support that boosted the numbers, rather than the desire of Cardiff fans to see English rather than Irish sides?

Sale 7015 Fr
Worcs 6823 LV
Quins 5967 LV
Muns 6122 P12
Leins 5063 P12
Ulster 7084 P12

Thank you - interesting figures, surprised that a cup game against Quins got the lowest attendance and friendly v Sale the highest, would have thought that would be the other way round, given the profiles of the clubs.

It should be entertained but the waters get muddy with the issue of relegation & promotion. Is it ring fenced? Is it done ona 3 year cycle with the team with the lowest accrued points tally demoted and replaced?

Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:The Irish don't like it but last season, Cardiff had higher attendances for 2 LV= fixtures and a friendly against English teams............ than they did against the top 3  Irish Provinces in the fully professional and meaningful Pro12.That's how good the pro12 is.

Who were the clubs Chunks - were the ticket prices lower for the LV and friendlies ?

Just wondering if it would be a combination of novelty value and travelling English support that boosted the numbers, rather than the desire of Cardiff fans to see English rather than Irish sides?

Don't encourage him/her!

F off

I'm talking about rugby. You're just sniping like a bitch.

Irish Londoner wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:
Who were the clubs Chunks - were the ticket prices lower for the LV and friendlies ?
Just wondering if it would be a combination of novelty value and travelling English support that boosted the numbers, rather than the desire of Cardiff fans to see English rather than Irish sides?

Sale 7015 Fr
Worcs 6823 LV
Quins 5967 LV
Muns 6122 P12
Leins 5063 P12
Ulster 7084 P12

Thank you - interesting figures, surprised that a cup game against Quins got the lowest attendance and friendly v Sale the highest, would have thought that would be the other way round, given the profiles of the clubs.

It all depends in which ground they play at, for the most, LV= cup games are moved around the region, for example, the Ospreys play all their LV= cup game at Bridgend, they always sell out there, but it is still not as much as they would get if the played in Swansea. But there is more of an interest when the English clubs come to town for the LV= cup, and it's just because of the history between the clubs.

LordDowlais wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:
Who were the clubs Chunks - were the ticket prices lower for the LV and friendlies ?
Just wondering if it would be a combination of novelty value and travelling English support that boosted the numbers, rather than the desire of Cardiff fans to see English rather than Irish sides?

Sale 7015 Fr
Worcs 6823 LV
Quins 5967 LV
Muns 6122 P12
Leins 5063 P12
Ulster 7084 P12

Thank you - interesting figures, surprised that a cup game against Quins got the lowest attendance and friendly v Sale the highest, would have thought that would be the other way round, given the profiles of the clubs.

It all depends in which ground they play at, for the most, LV= cup games are moved around the region, for example, the Ospreys play all their LV= cup game at Bridgend, they always sell out there, but it is still not as much as they would get if the played in Swansea. But there is more of an interest when the English clubs come to town for the LV= cup, and it's just because of the history between the clubs.

Lord, I don't know where you get your information from, you obviously don't go to the Brewery Field, as the Ospreys definately DON'T sell out LV games there, nowhere near sellout

wayne wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:
Who were the clubs Chunks - were the ticket prices lower for the LV and friendlies ?
Just wondering if it would be a combination of novelty value and travelling English support that boosted the numbers, rather than the desire of Cardiff fans to see English rather than Irish sides?

Sale 7015 Fr
Worcs 6823 LV
Quins 5967 LV
Muns 6122 P12
Leins 5063 P12
Ulster 7084 P12

Thank you - interesting figures, surprised that a cup game against Quins got the lowest attendance and friendly v Sale the highest, would have thought that would be the other way round, given the profiles of the clubs.

It all depends in which ground they play at, for the most, LV= cup games are moved around the region, for example, the Ospreys play all their LV= cup game at Bridgend, they always sell out there, but it is still not as much as they would get if the played in Swansea. But there is more of an interest when the English clubs come to town for the LV= cup, and it's just because of the history between the clubs.

Lord, I don't know where you get your information from, you obviously don't go to the Brewery Field, as the Ospreys definately DON'T sell out LV games there, nowhere near sellout

Sorry I meant, if they did sell out, they still would not get the same as they could at Swansea.Also, they do get some good crowds down there for LV= cup.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:The Welsh clubs and the English clubs have a much longer history than any of the others, especially clubs in and around the border, I can always remember as a kid Cardiff would always play Gloucester on boxing day, I can rember as a little 8yr old my farther would take me down to Cardiff to watch it, and a lot of other clubs have history too

The Irish don't like it but last season, Cardiff had higher attendances for 2 LV= fixtures and a friendly against English teams............ than they did against the top 3  Irish Provinces in the fully professional and meaningful Pro12.

That's how good the pro12 is.

There's a simple explanation for that. Fans like to see their team win! In other words the mickey mouse pro 12 wasnt easy enough for Cardiff. Another example is the Ospreys got more fans when they were on top and doing well. If I can remember correctly, at the time they were better supported than most teams in the league.

What the Welsh would benefit from the most in an Anglo Welsh league is TV money.

Attendance's has risen sharply in Glasgow, Connacht, Ulster and Leinster, in recent years. Goes to show what a bit of success can do.

gcBlues wrote:It should be entertained but the waters get muddy with the issue of relegation & promotion. Is it ring fenced? Is it done ona 3 year cycle with the team with the lowest accrued points tally demoted and replaced?

The only nation in any B & I league where relegation would be an issue would be England, the other three nations would have nowhere for a relegated side to go to - none of the Welsh, Irish or Scottlsh sides could survive demotion to their national semi-pro/amatuer league for long.

The way to secure it would be some form of franchise - i.e. in a 28 team two division league, Ireland get the 4 provincial teams, Wales, 4 regions plus maybe a "Valleys" team, Scotland 2 (maybe 3 sides if they revamp the "Borders" team) and the rest go to England, so the Jeff sides plus the top sides from the Championship.

You would have to ring fence for a least a couple of seasons, and then have a RL system of allowing other sides to bid for the right to move into the league - so for example London Scottish or the Cornish Pirates could get in, if they were to demonstrate a feasible business plan that meant they were a bigger asset to the league than the side they were replacing.

I'm not sure the English clubs would be happy about the Celts being guaranteed places when they still had to face a possibilty of relegation but it's the only way it would work.

Irish Londoner wrote:

gcBlues wrote:It should be entertained but the waters get muddy with the issue of relegation & promotion. Is it ring fenced? Is it done ona 3 year cycle with the team with the lowest accrued points tally demoted and replaced?

The only nation in any B & I league where relegation would be an issue would be England, the other three nations would have nowhere for a relegated side to go to - none of the Welsh, Irish or Scottlsh sides could survive demotion to their national semi-pro/amatuer league for long.

The way to secure it would be some form of franchise - i.e. in a 28 team two division league, Ireland get the 4 provincial teams, Wales, 4 regions plus maybe a "Valleys" team, Scotland 2 (maybe 3 sides if they revamp the "Borders" team) and the rest go to England, so the Jeff sides plus the top sides from the Championship.

You would have to ring fence for a least a couple of seasons, and then have a RL system of allowing other sides to bid for the right to move into the league - so for example London Scottish or the Cornish Pirates could get in, if they were to demonstrate a feasible business plan that meant they were a bigger asset to the league than the side they were replacing.

I'm not sure the English clubs would be happy about the Celts being guaranteed places when they still had to face a possibilty of relegation but it's the only way it would work.

Just make it all B&I for the first two or three tears, then make it regional.

To be honest the Welsh and English clubs should have come together when rugby turned professional and integrated the top couple of divisions. I can't see it happening now though, the AP is in good health and I don't see what adding other teams who presumably would want relegation scrapped would bring to the mix. It was also ruin any European competition in my opinion.

Bathman_in_London wrote:To be honest the Welsh and English clubs should have come together when rugby turned professional and integrated the top couple of divisions. I can't see it happening now though, the AP is in good health and I don't see what adding other teams who presumably would want relegation scrapped would bring to the mix. It was also ruin any European competition in my opinion.

It is already ruined anyway, it is just a French and English competition with a bit of lip service given to everybody else.

LordDowlais wrote:

Bathman_in_London wrote:To be honest the Welsh and English clubs should have come together when rugby turned professional and integrated the top couple of divisions. I can't see it happening now though, the AP is in good health and I don't see what adding other teams who presumably would want relegation scrapped would bring to the mix. It was also ruin any European competition in my opinion.

It is already ruined anyway, it is just a French and English competition with a bit of lip service given to everybody else.

From the OP, that's exactly what a B&I league would be, but without the French.

Bathman_in_London wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Bathman_in_London wrote:To be honest the Welsh and English clubs should have come together when rugby turned professional and integrated the top couple of divisions. I can't see it happening now though, the AP is in good health and I don't see what adding other teams who presumably would want relegation scrapped would bring to the mix. It was also ruin any European competition in my opinion.

It is already ruined anyway, it is just a French and English competition with a bit of lip service given to everybody else.

From the OP, that's exactly what a B&I league would be, but without the French.

The less we have to do with the French the better if you ask me,only in rugby terms of course.

Can't see how this would solve the Welsh problems.

Ok they may get an itial boost in attendance, but the league would be even tougher, and a Welsh team would be even more unlikly to make the playoffs

I think attendance would drop as Welsh teams struggle or are in the 2nd division.
If its the 4 regions entered you would have the other Welsh Prem clubs wanting a chance to replace them and would create a lot more disharmony in Wales.

The refs wouldn't always be from Neutral Unions same as the pro 12 is now.

And this is the biggest part for me,

Is there really a history of rivalry with the English clubs that would bring the crowds in?
Rivallies come and go to an extent,
Most of the old rivalries are dead, or are not going to draw the fans in now.
The biggest Welsh English club rivalry is Ospreys V Tigers, this has been built since 2003, not some old historic rivalry.

Rivalries (not derbies) are created when two teams keep meeting at the top end to win prizes. in the Pro 12 this would have been Leinster and Ospreys, and currently would be Leinster V Glasgow.

Both these have been a bit one sided, when Ospreys won leinster could content themselves with a H-cup so didn't really feel bad about it, and Glasgow have yet to beat them in a playoff.

If Glasgow were to put Leinster out in the play offs this year I can see a little bite being added to this.

Exiledinborders wrote:

TJ wrote:At the beginning of professionalism the English were invited to a euro league.  they refused.  Pro 12 is a great league - why should we no dilute it with boring English teams?  only a couple of them would add quality to the pro 12 and most of then would drag down the entertainment and quality

I agree who would want to watch Quins, Sarries, Leicester, Bath and Northampton when one can watch Zebre v Treviso.

Get a grip man.

Read what I wrote - its not about who would win its about entertainment.  too many English games are boring with too much safety first rugby.  I watched a couple of games at he weekend and they were dire - Northampton are one of the teams I would include in that.  Week in week out the entertainment value of the pro 12 games is much better.    Poor old George North got one pass I think last weekend. The most entertaining game I watched was the Glasgow game - two sides trying to attack and using all options available. Far more entertaining that the wasps / Saints match

Provocative rather than troll

Kingshu wrote:Can't see how this would solve the Welsh problems.

Ok they may get an itial boost in attendance, but the league would be even tougher, and a Welsh team would be even more unlikly to make the playoffs

I think attendance would drop as Welsh teams struggle or are in the 2nd division.
If its the 4 regions entered you would have the other Welsh Prem clubs wanting a chance to replace them and would create a lot more disharmony in Wales.

The refs wouldn't always be from Neutral Unions same as the pro 12 is now.

And this is the biggest part for me,

Is there really a history of rivalry with the English clubs that would bring the crowds in?
Rivallies come and go to an extent,
Most of the old rivalries are dead, or are not going to draw the fans in now.
The biggest Welsh English club rivalry is Ospreys V Tigers, this has been built since 2003, not some old historic rivalry.

Rivalries (not derbies) are created when two teams keep meeting at the top end to win prizes. in the Pro 12 this would have been Leinster and Ospreys, and currently would be Leinster V Glasgow.

Both these have been a bit one sided, when Ospreys won leinster could content themselves with a H-cup so didn't really feel bad about it, and Glasgow have yet to beat them in a playoff.

If Glasgow were to put Leinster out in the play offs this year I can see a little bite being added to this.

For a start, it would be easier to market any Wales v England game rather than Wales v an Irish province select team. It's easy for the Irish to say, well the second strings of the provinces beat us, but people will pay for names as well as result. Even if Dragons got relegated, I would see it as a meaningful league as it would offer us better away days rather than book a flight and try and guess the day before the Pro12 eventually decide to release confirmed dates.

Also, if you think some Welsh clubs aren't already eyeing up turning pro, look at Ponty and how they act. Never mind Sardis is a dump and their pitch is worse than Risca RFC's and the fact that they could never step up constantly to pro level, they still fancy it. So whatever league we are in, it wouldn't change.

Kingshu wrote:

The refs wouldn't always be from Neutral Unions same as the pro 12 is now.

It could not be much worst than the bias Irish one's we have now.

TJ wrote:...................

Read what I wrote - its not about who would win its about entertainment. .......................

I take it back. Maybe I watched the wrong game on Friday but Blues / Ulster was dire. Hope for some better games the rest of the weekend.

I enjoyed Blues-Ulster. Were defences on top and was the error count high? Yes, but the physicality was also very high and the commitment from everyone was exemplary.

They all said we wanted to see games that were full-on and physical, and thats how it felt.

Even Leinster can't live with the power and pace of Pro12 no more!

SecretFly wrote:Even Leinster can't live with the power and pace of Pro12 no more!  

If it stops the welsh from whinging . I am all for it. The only problem is when they discover they get beaten as much by the English teams as they were by the other pro12 teams they will start looking for a league with the Russians or Georgians. They might win then