Aviva Premiership Round Four

by **Ozzy3213** Mon 22 Sep 2014, 2:41 pm

First topic message reminder :

Well, round three was another feast of entertaining rugby, with this now shaping up to be potentially a vintage season in Premiership history. This weeks action began at Kingsholm on Friday night, where Gloucester started better than in rounds one and two, but couldn't see things though against the Chiefs, who have started the season in fine form themselves. In Saturday's early kick off Sale Sharks left it late to secure the try bonus point against London Welsh, but three tries in the last six minutes got the job done and them off the mark in the wins column. Harlequins then squeezed past Wasps to get back on track after last weekends humping, and London Irish showed that they may not be relegation fodder this season, taking unbeaten Saracens to the wire in a 7 try thriller in which the Exiles picked up two bonus points. Then came possible the biggest shock result in Premiership history, as Bath thumped Leicester Tigers 45-0 to put themselves top of the table. For the second weekend running the action finished at Kingston Park, where Newcastle Falcons went down to a Northampton Saints team with a point to prove.

Prediction wise I was 4 from 6 again, with Gloucester and my own beloved Exiles letting me down this time around. So that's 12 from 18, and still no full house for a winning accumulator for me.. Anyway, here's how the table looks after round 3:-

POS	TEAM	P	W	D	L	F	A	PD	TF	TA	TBP	LBP	PTS
1.	Bath Rugby	3	3	0	0	127	46	+81	14	6	2	0	14
2.	Saracens	3	3	0	0	109	60	+49	10	7	1	0	13
3.	Northampton Saints	3	2	0	1	104	36	+68	13	3	2	1	11
4.	Exeter Chiefs	3	2	0	1	97	46	+51	10	5	1	1	10
5.	Leicester Tigers	3	2	0	1	60	82	-22	6	9	1	0	9
6.	Harlequins	3	2	0	1	46	77	-31	4	6	0	0	8
7.	Sale Sharks	3	1	0	2	93	71	+22	12	6	2	1	7
8.	London Irish	3	1	0	2	67	74	-7	6	8	1	2	7
9.	Wasps	3	1	0	2	71	76	-5	8	7	0	2	6
10.	Gloucester	3	1	0	2	62	105	-43	6	13	0	1	5
11.	Newcastle Falcons	3	0	0	3	45	91	-46	6	10	0	1	1
12.	London Welsh	3	0	0	3	34	151	-117	5	20	1	0	1

So, on to this weeks fixtures, and here they are;-

Friday 26th September 2014 19:45 London Welsh vs. Gloucester

It's difficult to know what to say about London Welsh, as they have been truly appalling, particularly in defence. At some point they have to tighten up, and having been on the road in rounds two and three will look to find some comfort from being at home here. Gloucester have improved since their mauling by Northampton in round one, but this is their first trip away from Kingsholm since then, and there is no certainty that they will travel well. The will have to be terrible though, and Welsh will have to play out of their skin if the Oxford based side are going to win this, and I just can't see it. Gloucester to win on the road, but Welsh may do enough to pick up a losing bonus point.

Saturday 27th September 2014 15:00 Leicester Tigers vs. London Irish

How do I call this? Tigers in disarray and there for the taking, or a wounded in animal ready to lash out in their own lair? I suspect the latter, in particular if Allen and Tuilagi are fit to start this one. I imagine they will be beasted this week by our friend Mr Cockerill, and will want to take that out on the Exiles come Saturday afternoon. That said, Irish stood up well against the ferocity of the Saracens pack, and with a little bit more luck may have clung on for a cracking win. They will need to dig deep and produce the same level of performance this weekend if they are to come away from a ground where they have historically gotten very little. Heart says we can do it, head says a losing bonus point should be on the cards in this one.

Saturday 27th September 2014 15:00 Saracens vs. Sale Sharks

The GloboGym machine rolled on last weekend, despite being given a scare, and are now 3 from 3. Having rotated last week I expect that some of those who were rotated out may be rotated back in for this one, but whoever they put out it will undoubtedly be a very strong side. Sale will be buoyed by picking up their first win against London Welsh, but it's tough to judge the value of that given that everyone has humped them so far. To get anything from this game their pack will need to front up, and look as if they may be without Nathan Hines, and Cipriani will need to be on top form and pulling the strings. It is however Saracens first game at Allianz Park this season, and I expect them to come hard for the win and have too much for Sale who I think will go away with nothing.

Saturday 27th September 2014 15:15 Northampton Saints vs. Bath Rugby

It's the big game of the round, with unbeaten Bath travelling to the champions. This promises to be feisty, with two meaty packs colliding, and Saints will want to dominate to ensure that Bath don't get anywhere near as much front foot ball as they did against Tigers. It's a really tough one to call, as Bath were excellent last week but this is Saints at the Gardens and they will want to make up ground on their title rivals in front of their home fans. I think this will be a tight affair, with Saints edging it and Bath heading back west with a losing bonus point.

Sunday 28th September 2014 14:00 Exeter Chiefs vs. Harlequins

Despite the win against Wasps, I am still unconvinced by Harlequins this season. The Chiefs on the other hand have surprised me this season, as I wasn't convinced they would be as strong as they have in last 2 years, but once again they are well drilled, efficient, and have some real talented youngsters going well in their back line. Pre season, I'd have fancied Quins to nick this one, but after the evidence of the opening three rounds, I think this is a win for the Chiefs, and Quins will be lucky to take anything back with them to Twickenham.

Sunday 28th September 2014 14:00 Wasps vs. Newcastle Falcons

Having played Saracens, Saints and Quins in their opening three games, I suspect that Wasps will be pleased to have a slightly easier fixture this week. Falcons have shown little in the opening three rounds, however they did battle hard against Saints in the second half last time out. The problem is they don't look able to hurt teams with their back line, so are reliant on their pack rumbling over, but other teams have equally strong packs and they aren't likely to dominate anyone but London Welsh. If Wasps pack get them any quick ball, they have pace to burn in the back line and will score tries. I think they'll get four or more of them here and bag a nice little five pointer in this one.

Ozzy's predicted table after round 4:

Saracens 18, Northampton Saints 15, Bath Rugby 15, Exeter Chiefs 14, Leicester Tigers 13, Wasps 11, Gloucester 9, London Irish 8, Harlequins 8, Sale Sharks 7, London Welsh 2, Newcastle Falcons 1.

by yappysnap Sun 28 Sep 2014, 8:31 pm

nathan wrote:So in short, we're all Donald Ducked!

Not quite, Globogym and the other moneybags seem to be doing alright...

by Bathite Sun 28 Sep 2014, 8:50 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:It's a bit worrying that two teams providing a reasonable number of England players - Quins & Leicester - are yet to rediscover their mojo.

Don't worry, we've got this

by yappysnap Sun 28 Sep 2014, 9:22 pm

Bathite wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:It's a bit worrying that two teams providing a reasonable number of England players - Quins & Leicester - are yet to rediscover their mojo.

Don't worry, we've got this

Please don't send us Banahan!!!! Shocked

by Bathite Sun 28 Sep 2014, 9:29 pm

Doesn't get in the bath 23 these days. He's terrible

by yappysnap Sun 28 Sep 2014, 9:59 pm

Didn't he play last week?

by Bathite Sun 28 Sep 2014, 10:00 pm

Only due to unavailability of Watson and Agulla

by Hound of Harrow Sun 28 Sep 2014, 11:19 pm

I'm pleased with the Wasps' bp win, but we still give away too many avoidable penalties. Falcons had their chances but their execution was blydi awful.

Yes, we did make the most of our opportunities and (Goode excepted) had the pace from 9-15 to capitalise.

Our scrum gave us a good platform and Gaskell had a good game.

If anyone saw the Wade yellow, and Falcons subsequent penalty try near the end, what did you make of it? The crowd were incensed, as he did make a clear attempt at an interception. But as I pointed out to some of my fellow Wasps fans in the pub afterwards - the ref and TMO have to take into account that, even though Wade a genuine attempt at an interception (and very nearly made it), a try scoring opportunity was denied.

by **Ozzy3213** Mon 29 Sep 2014, 6:58 am

Morning Hound

I think the ref had no choice on the Wade knock on. I always think deliberate knock ons are harsh for attempted intercepts with one hand, but that's the law, and Bath conceded one in their game with Saints as well, so at least it's something that the referees appear to be consistent on.

by Hound of Harrow Mon 29 Sep 2014, 8:33 am

Hi Ozzy. Yeah, so long as the guidance given to refs is consistently applied then fans should have no complaints.

One of the lads, who is also an Ulster fan, reckoned that refs shouldn't punish players who are making a genuine attempt to play the ball.

He was, of course, harking back to Jared Payne's red card v Sarries in the HC q/f last season. We had already done that one to death, but he just can't accept that refs have been told to take into account the consequences of a player's actions. In this case denying a try scoring chance. If it had happened in Newcastle's half, rather than five metres from our try line, the ref may just have awarded a scrum for a knock on.

Other than the Wasps game, I haven't seen any other games, but I have recorded the highlights prog, so I'll look out for the Bath incident.

thumbsup

by beshocked Mon 29 Sep 2014, 8:57 am

Hound of Harrow yes it's consistency that fans want.

Shame the ref and TMO couldn't manage that in the AP final last season!

This season though I think there has been more consistency.

Wade definitely deserved a YC. As did the Bath player (Arscott I believe).

No it doesn't matter if it is close to the line or not - Charlie Hodgson got a YC vs Quins and rightly so for a similar incident.

So you're ulster friend thinks it is okay to injure the opposition?In the Ulster incident - Payne did not jump. The way that Goode fell also affected the decision. The only debate is what colour the card should be. One could easily argue that red was overly harsh but a card was definitely warranted.

Nowell got a YC vs Quins yesterday - he injured Brown in the process. He tried to pull out but going by the current rulings it was consistent with cards being dished out.

If the offending player injures the opposition it does affect the thought process of the ref - whether it should or shouldn't is debatable but personally I think player welfare is important.

by Bathman_in_London Mon 29 Sep 2014, 9:49 am

yappysnap wrote:Just so I know, which teams have already lost to Welsh last time they were up?

Bath managed to lose away at the Kassam last time. Hopefully we can avoid that ignominy this season!

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 29 Sep 2014, 10:01 am

Hound, if that was outside the 22 Wade might have got away with it. I just think the circumstances made the ref have no choice. It was needed as our execution was shocking.

On a side note the "tackle" on Hammersley from Myall deserved at least a yellow.

by **Ozzy3213** Mon 29 Sep 2014, 10:06 am

by beshocked Mon 29 Sep 2014, 10:13 am

I don't think LW look like beating anyone at the moment!

Bath have impressed me so far this season - looking like contenders for the title. Will be interesting to see how they fare vs Globogym.

by **Ozzy3213** Mon 29 Sep 2014, 10:15 am

So on the basis of the first 4 rounds, Saracens and Saints looked nailed on for the top 4, with Bath extremely likely to be joining them. 4th place would appear to be up for grabs. Despite their early season wobbles you have to think that Tigers and Quins will be in the mix come the end of the season, but the Chiefs and Wasps, to my surprise, look as if they may be able to mount a challenge there.

Us, Gloucester and Sale I think may be a little bit off that level, but might be able to make a push for the top 6 given a bit of luck and one of the top sides faltering, with Welsh and Falcons battling it out to stay up.

When is the first Welsh vs. Falcons fixture? It could have a huge psychological impact on both teams seasons.

by **Ozzy3213** Mon 29 Sep 2014, 10:16 am

Bshocked, you seem to have fallen seriously out of love with Saracens mate, what's the deal? I know they rub some people up the wrong way, but underneath the public faces of McCafferty et al they are a good, solid club who do a lot of good work.

by Geordie Mon 29 Sep 2014, 10:24 am

Im struggling to see us beating LW at the minute.

Ponderous, weak in the collisions, lacking in any kind of imagination ball in hand...

On the unoffy there are simmerings of people beginning to question the performance of Mr Richards and his coaching team.

by Bathman_in_London Mon 29 Sep 2014, 10:25 am

Welsh vs Falcons will be a big game alright, it wouldn't be an exaggeration to say that the venue for that first fixture could have a big say in who goes down. Having said that, Newcastle are surely more likely to turn things around. For welsh, the European break to regroup can't come soon enough.

beshocked, I think Sarries will have too much for Bath next week. I think Bath can be a bit naïve still, and missing natural leaders like Louw and Fearns doesn't help that. Against Saints we only seemed to wake up when we were already in a losing position. Plus Charlie Hodgson seems to be in the form of his life!

by beshocked Mon 29 Sep 2014, 10:37 am

Ozzy3213 Saracens do indeed rub people up the wrong way - that's the problem. I know Saracens better than most - simply put they are the good, the bad and the ugly.

I can't go into specific details because there are a lot of good people at Saracens but then again I will not go to live matches and support them anymore because they have let me down.

Let's just say Saracens have their priorities wrong - focus is far too much on the players, supporters are taken for granted.

You could argue the playing part is going well - the team is performing well but there is a lack of support. It's not a surprise to me why this is when I know what goes on.

by **Ozzy3213** Mon 29 Sep 2014, 10:50 am

That's sad to hear mate, as you've always been a very passionate supporter.

by beshocked Mon 29 Sep 2014, 11:17 am

bathman in london

Interesting thing about Newcastle is that they don't look like winning a game either.

I am not convinced Globogym will win. It very much depends how Bath start in my opinion.

Saracens have conceded 10 tries this season in 4 matches which simply is not good enough.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 29 Sep 2014, 11:25 am

Ozzy3213 wrote:

I agree with him to a large degree, hence why I was glad that Cowan did not get a card for his forearm to Gibson's face. Gibson had no right to put him in what looked like a vicious headlock.

Problem is we do have to be conscious of the game's image too, and fighting on TV screens does not look good.

PS Why is the date in the future?

PPS Do you now agree with his point of view, as previously you have been quite vehement against people who retaliated.

by **Ozzy3213** Mon 29 Sep 2014, 11:37 am

LT, I cannot answer why the date is in the future, as I got this form The Eggchasers Podcast twitter feed. I belive fat fingers may have been part of the equation.

I don't recall being vehemently against people who retaliated, although I think you may be refering to the incident at the Paddys Day Party game a few years back when once again Mr Gibson, then playing for us, had hold of an opposition player who clocked him and got carded. My memory of that was that I though Ben Youngs reaction was over the top and the card was therefore deserved. Likewise with the Cowan incident, as I have said, possibly on another site, if he had been carded, I would have had no complaints. It was a pretty powder puff punch, but it was a punch nonetheless.

With regard Jebb's comment, I do agree to a certain extent that if two players go at it and it's a fair scrap then cards are probably a bit of an over the top sanction. Your point is valid though, it's not like the old days any more, and there are cameras everywhere, and in terms of attracting young kids to the game seeing grown men fight might dissuade a few mums from letting little Johnny take up the game.

by toml Mon 29 Sep 2014, 11:51 am

beshocked wrote:Ozzy3213 Saracens do indeed rub people up the wrong way - that's the problem. I know Saracens better than most - simply put they are the good, the bad and the ugly.

I can't go into specific details because there are a lot of good people at Saracens but then again I will not go to live matches and support them anymore because they have let me down.

Let's just say Saracens have their priorities wrong - focus is far too much on the players, supporters are taken for granted.

You could argue the playing part is going well - the team is performing well but there is a lack of support. It's not a surprise to me why this is when I know what goes on.

That sucks mate. There are many great 'clubs' in England but Saracens always seem to me to be a 'team' and not so much a club

by beshocked Mon 29 Sep 2014, 11:57 am

toml that would be a fair summary. It's easily remedied but it needs the correct approach.

by HongKongCherry Mon 29 Sep 2014, 12:08 pm

beshocked wrote:Ozzy3213 Saracens do indeed rub people up the wrong way - that's the problem. I know Saracens better than most - simply put they are the good, the bad and the ugly.

I can't go into specific details because there are a lot of good people at Saracens but then again I will not go to live matches and support them anymore because they have let me down.

Let's just say Saracens have their priorities wrong - focus is far too much on the players, supporters are taken for granted.

You could argue the playing part is going well - the team is performing well but there is a lack of support. It's not a surprise to me why this is when I know what goes on.

That's really disappointing to hear. Given how vehemently you've had to defend them against largely misplaced criticism, it is such a shame for you that you've been let down. I won't ask for specifics but have you raised these issues with the club?

by beshocked Mon 29 Sep 2014, 12:23 pm

HKC yes the issues have been raised - they have been glossed over. There has been an acknowledgement of fault (though this happened a long time after the incident) but nothing significant has been done about it - sadly that's unsurprising.

It has made me realise that most of the criticism is not misplaced.

I want the club to change - not for my sake but for others. If enough people show discontent then perhaps they will be forced to.

by **Ozzy3213** Mon 29 Sep 2014, 6:07 pm

Will try to get this weeks thread up tonight, but might be tomorrow afternoon if I run out of time this evening.

by yappysnap Mon 29 Sep 2014, 6:23 pm

Any one seen the forward of the month videos Prem Rugby are doing? Not the most informative but an interesting watch anyway.

by SirBurger Mon 29 Sep 2014, 6:25 pm

yappysnap wrote:Any one seen the forward of the month videos Prem Rugby are doing? Not the most informative but an interesting watch anyway.

Had a look but couldn't find - any more guidance?

by Heaf Mon 29 Sep 2014, 6:54 pm

beshocked wrote:HKC yes the issues have been raised - they have been glossed over. There has been an acknowledgement of fault (though this happened a long time after the incident) but nothing significant has been done about it - sadly that's unsurprising.

It has made me realise that most of the criticism is not misplaced.

I want the club to change - not for my sake but for others. If enough people show discontent then perhaps they will be forced to.

You'd be welcome as a London Irish fan - we can always do with a few more Hug

by yappysnap Mon 29 Sep 2014, 8:14 pm

SirBurger wrote:
yappysnap wrote:Any one seen the forward of the month videos Prem Rugby are doing? Not the most informative but an interesting watch anyway.

Had a look but couldn't find - any more guidance?

Here you go https://youtu.be/DKNpX8ZRZ6s

It doesn't include this weekends games though.

by Guest Tue 30 Sep 2014, 1:39 am

Heaf wrote:You'd be welcome as a London Irish fan - we can always do with a few more

Nah sod that, they're clearly gash. Come join team Leicester. Remember that when Tigers win it's because they are much better than everyone else. When they lose it's only because of internationals, injuries, biased referees, Clark killing all their kittens or usually all of the above. You know it makes sense. Where else do you get a legit 100% win rate? Also Mulipola is a majestic beast that will have you weak at the knees.

by **Ozzy3213** Tue 30 Sep 2014, 6:51 am

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:
Heaf wrote:You'd be welcome as a London Irish fan - we can always do with a few more

Nah sod that, they're clearly gash. Come join team Leicester. Remember that when Tigers win it's because they are much better than everyone else. When they lose it's only because of internationals, injuries, biased referees, Clark killing all their kittens or usually all of the above. You know it makes sense. Where else do you get a legit 100% win rate? Also Mulipola is a majestic beast that will have you weak at the knees.

by Bathman_in_London Tue 30 Sep 2014, 9:46 am

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:
Heaf wrote:You'd be welcome as a London Irish fan - we can always do with a few more

Nah sod that, they're clearly gash. Come join team Leicester. Remember that when Tigers win it's because they are much better than everyone else. When they lose it's only because of internationals, injuries, biased referees, Clark killing all their kittens or usually all of the above. You know it makes sense. Where else do you get a legit 100% win rate? Also Mulipola is a majestic beast that will have you weak at the knees.

Great stuff!

by Heaf Tue 30 Sep 2014, 10:16 am

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