Lennox Lewis - The 2nd best fighter in Heavy history ???

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Head to head.....

Obviously he's not 2nd on my ATG list but I was thinking the other day that I'd fancy his chances against any Heavy in history...Ali would only be 60-40...

Huge, Decent speed, Quality jab and lot's of power..Lennox was very gifted.....Also his defeats tended to happen against fighters that were viewed as chaff....He always rose to the big occasion..

Where as Lenny boy is between 10-15 on my list....

For me he's the second best "fighter"...Closely followed by Tyson....

Difference was... Klitschko didn't get a rematch... If Rahman wasn't a money hungry so and so mighta retired and we'd spend the rest of eternity thinking Lewis was a limited bum who beat on a fading cruiserweight... well we would, you'd spend the time convincing whoever cared that Lewis could in fact have beaten Rahman in a rematch. And Lewis' Rahman defeat was a Damn sight more definitive than Klitschko's.

Lewis had everything - perhaps the most talented heavyweight of all time. Rarely, though, did he put it all together. Golota, Botha, Rahman 2 and that's about it.

If you're looking at performance - i.e. who could rise to the occasion then I think you're looking at Ali, Frazier, Louis and Holyfield.

If you're looking at the most formidable heavies on their best night then Bowe would figure, Douglas maybe, Louis, Tyson and Lewis.

Amen to that

hazharrison wrote:Lewis had everything - perhaps the most talented heavyweight of all time. Rarely, though, did he put it all together. Golota, Botha, Rahman 2 and that's about it.

If you're looking at performance - i.e. who could rise to the occasion then I think you're looking at Ali, Frazier, Louis and Holyfield.

If you're looking at the most formidable heavies on their best night then Bowe would figure, Douglas maybe, Louis, Tyson and Lewis.

Foreman has to be included in there too Haz maybe Liston but he didn't treat Frazier like his bitch for two rounds, that is the single most destructive performance of any of the top heavyweights. How Frazier kept getting up is beyond me, was getting punched with such force he was getting lifted off the floor and only one man would have had the confidence and at the time probably stupidity to make him punch himself out.

The Grant and Ruddock performances were impressive too while in a different way he was brilliant against Tua; note to Wlad fans, the time to be ultra cautious is when you have the Tua left hook and chin in the opposite corner.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

hazharrison wrote:Lewis had everything - perhaps the most talented heavyweight of all time. Rarely, though, did he put it all together. Golota, Botha, Rahman 2 and that's about it.

If you're looking at performance - i.e. who could rise to the occasion then I think you're looking at Ali, Frazier, Louis and Holyfield.

If you're looking at the most formidable heavies on their best night then Bowe would figure, Douglas maybe, Louis, Tyson and Lewis.

Foreman has to be included in there too Haz maybe Liston but he didn't treat Frazier like his bitch for two rounds, that is the single most destructive performance of any of the top heavyweights. How Frazier kept getting up is beyond me, was getting punched with such force he was getting lifted off the floor and only one man would have had the confidence and at the time probably stupidity to make him punch himself out.

Foreman was probably the biggest ogre the division ever saw but Ali, Young and Lyle proved he wasn't as complete a fighter as the ones I mentioned.

Liston is a glaring omission, though. He's my pick. Forget the Ali farces - on his best night, Liston was the next best guy (behind Ali).

I see Tyson and Foreman very similarly, the moment they lost their aura dissipated, unfortunately for Big George that defeat came far sooner in his top level career but you can't take the Frazier and Norton fights away from him.

Lyle and Young are two off the under appreciated heavyweights of that era, both on their day good enough to give anybody trouble.

Ron Lyle would have beaten the s hit out of the Klitschkos.

Haz this isn't right, I think we're about to find some common ground and something we agree on.

Lyle v Vitali would be a hell of a war. Both extremely tough, both can go long at their pace but tire when it's higher. Vitali with a big size advantage. Lyle maybe more adaptable, one shot power more tested...

superflyweight wrote:Indeed, Truss, and pseudo fools seldom differ.  It's why Strongy and Steffan see eye to eye on everything.  

I suppose there's no love for the English like the Scots love for the English.

It is hard to compare generations. All the old fighters are not better as we are led to believe. Training improves over time as does supplementation (legal and illiegal)

Other than Ali and possibly in form Tyson, I struggle to find any heavy who could beat a motivated Lewis. I would only pick Ali as a slight Favourite.

As for Vitali, I think he gives anyone a tough fight. Only the very best at their peaks would probably beat him and that is not a given.

The fact is, these debates are fun and everyone has an opinion but in the end of the day, until 2 men square off you will never know for certain who will win.

For me Ali is the standout greatest and the rest is just a matter of opinions.

it's an interesting thought. i wouldn't bet any huge amount of money against him if was fighting any heavy in history.

AdamT wrote:It is hard to compare generations. All the old fighters are not better as we are led to believe. Training improves over time as does supplementation (legal and illiegal)

Other than Ali and possibly in form Tyson, I struggle to find any heavy who could beat a motivated Lewis. I would only pick Ali as a slight Favourite.

As for Vitali, I think he gives anyone a tough fight. Only the very best at their peaks would probably beat him and that is not a given.

The fact is, these debates are fun and everyone has an opinion but in the end of the day, until 2 men square off you will never know for certain who will win.

For me Ali is the standout greatest and the rest is just a matter of opinions.

Any of the great ones who could punch stood a chance -- Lewis's chin wasn't great. Holyfield had him all over the place in their second fight (and he was past his best at this point).

hazharrison wrote:

AdamT wrote:It is hard to compare generations. All the old fighters are not better as we are led to believe. Training improves over time as does supplementation (legal and illiegal)

Other than Ali and possibly in form Tyson, I struggle to find any heavy who could beat a motivated Lewis. I would only pick Ali as a slight Favourite.

As for Vitali, I think he gives anyone a tough fight. Only the very best at their peaks would probably beat him and that is not a given.

The fact is, these debates are fun and everyone has an opinion but in the end of the day, until 2 men square off you will never know for certain who will win.

For me Ali is the standout greatest and the rest is just a matter of opinions.

Any of the great ones who could punch stood a chance -- Lewis's chin wasn't great. Holyfield had him all over the place in their second fight (and he was past his best at this point).

Fair point Haz but a motivated Lewis would be pretty hard to find on the chin. Plus he has taken some decent shots from hard hitters and not went down. Granted his chin isn't granite but it is certainly not glass either. The punch Rahman stopped him with could have floored a horse. It was an amazing punch that caught flush on the button.

I agree but he was also buzzed by Briggs, Mercer and Klitschko. He was motivated for the first two.

Lewis didn't have a glass chin but it was a weakness. When great fighters face off, it's these weaknesses that decide matters.

Liston had everything at his best: chin, power, strength and boxing ability.

hazharrison wrote:

Holyfield had him all over the place in their second fight

I think it was the 7th (maybe 8th?) round when Holyfield hits him with an absolutely perfect left hook. Way better than the one put that lardy Bowe on his backside. It definitely shook Lewis but I distinctly remember thinking at the time how impressed I was that he stood up.

hazharrison wrote:I agree but he was also buzzed by Briggs, Mercer and Klitschko. He was motivated for the first two.

Lewis didn't have a glass chin but it was a weakness. When great fighters face off, it's these weaknesses that decide matters.

Liston had everything at his best: chin, power, strength and boxing ability.

Liston is a great shout. Was obviously a lot older when Ali beat him. Liston also had a fantastic reach and you also forgot to mention how scary the man was. Ali gets a lot of credit for his rivarly with Frazier and the fantastic upset in the jungle (rightly so) but his wins vs Liston are his greatest imo. Liston wasn't a young man at the time but he was a bad man and I don't think anybody else could of did what Ali did to him. 2nd fight still very suspicious though.

It's a real shame we don't have footage of Liston sparring a young Foreman.

hazharrison wrote:It's a real shame we don't have footage of Liston sparring a young Foreman.

My dad is a huge fan and watched all the fights overthe years form 60s on. He maintains Liston beats the s**t out of every heavyweight other than the faster younger Ali. Liston is a case of the unkown sometimes. Could very well be one of the very best ever.

hazharrison wrote:Ron Lyle would have beaten the s hit out of the Klitschkos.

What are you basing that on to be so sure, Haz? Puncher's chance against Wlad, but I can't see any scenario where Lyle can be made a big favourite over either of the brothers.....Unless he gets extra kudos simply for being a seventies fighter of course.

As for Lewis, not quite sure I'd have him as high as second in a 'who beats who?' list of the Heavyweights, but I don't think there's any really clear right or wrong on this subject. Just about all the elite-level Heavyweights have performances ranging from bouts where they looks unstoppable to ones where they look decidedly average and vulnerable even in their primes, and Lewis is no different.

But as Rowley has touched on, Lewis has more of these kind of showings than a lot of the other contenders here, but there seems to be an ever-growing craze similar to the Tyson phenomenon whereby there's always an excuse lined up, or a convenient reason why it should be brushed under the carpet. A soft-around-the-middle Mercer edged him, in my opinion. Even if you thought Lewis just about deserved the decision, what was he doing going life and death with Mercer in that kind of shape and at that stage of his career?

The McCall and Rahman losses look no better over time, either. Just months later, McCall only just scraped past the shell of Holmes by about a point, for me. We all know Rahman's place in the recent Heavyweight pecking order and it's nowhere near the top. Incidentally, while I don't necessarily share the view that the second Holyfield fight was all that close (Lewis won it by a good three rounds at least, in my eyes), Evander did give Lewis problems and had him looking a bit panicked now and then, and this wasn't a peak Holyfield by that stage, either.

Lewis' continued problems fighting at close quarters with smaller guys who could get inside on him lead me to believe that a peak Tyson would have cut him down, and Frazier could well have had success against him as well (Lewis the favourite though, I guess, but not a done deal). I think Ali has a bit too much of everything for him to be made favourite there, while the likes of Foreman and Holmes are something very close to pick'ems.

All that considered, I think you'd have to be giving Lewis too much of the benefit of the doubt to be putting him as a clear number two, though I don't think he's far off. Maybe a spot or two lower for me - but as I said, with the Heavyweights the water is always pretty murky as very few of them, even the greatest ones, have had long, long spells where they've looked totally infallible.

AdamT wrote:

hazharrison wrote:It's a real shame we don't have footage of Liston sparring a young Foreman.

My dad is a huge fan and watched all the fights overthe years form 60s on. He maintains Liston beats the s**t out of every heavyweight other than the faster younger Ali. Liston is a case of the unkown sometimes. Could very well be one of the very best ever.

Funnily enough the late Hank Kaplan, who knew about as much about boxing as anyone who has ever walked the earth felt fairly similarly about Sonny. Was a pity he did not get his title shot three years earlier, when he undoubtedly deserved it, suspect with a three or four year reign and half a dozen dominant defences behind him we would view both his career and the Ali capitulations a little more generously.

Peter Jackson does the same to Liston that Clay did but with the added bonus of being so polite about the whole thing that Sonny thanks him for the boxing lesson afterwards

88Chris05 wrote:

hazharrison wrote:Ron Lyle would have beaten the s hit out of the Klitschkos.

What are you basing that on to be so sure, Haz? Puncher's chance against Wlad, but I can't see any scenario where Lyle can be made a big favourite over either of the brothers.....Unless he gets extra kudos simply for being a seventies fighter of course.

As for Lewis, not quite sure I'd have him as high as second in a 'who beats who?' list of the Heavyweights, but I don't think there's any really clear right or wrong on this subject. Just about all the elite-level Heavyweights have performances ranging from bouts where they looks unstoppable to ones where they look decidedly average and vulnerable even in their primes, and Lewis is no different.

But as Rowley has touched on, Lewis has more of these kind of showings than a lot of the other contenders here, but there seems to be an ever-growing craze similar to the Tyson phenomenon whereby there's always an excuse lined up, or a convenient reason why it should be brushed under the carpet. A soft-around-the-middle Mercer edged him, in my opinion. Even if you thought Lewis just about deserved the decision, what was he doing going life and death with Mercer in that kind of shape and at that stage of his career?

The McCall and Rahman losses look no better over time, either. Just months later, McCall only just scraped past the shell of Holmes by about a point, for me. We all know Rahman's place in the recent Heavyweight pecking order and it's nowhere near the top. Incidentally, while I don't necessarily share the view that the second Holyfield fight was all that close (Lewis won it by a good three rounds at least, in my eyes), Evander did give Lewis problems and had him looking a bit panicked now and then, and this wasn't a peak Holyfield by that stage, either.

Lewis' continued problems fighting at close quarters with smaller guys who could get inside on him lead me to believe that a peak Tyson would have cut him down, and Frazier could well have had success against him as well (Lewis the favourite though, I guess, but not a done deal). I think Ali has a bit too much of everything for him to be made favourite there, while the likes of Foreman and Holmes are something very close to pick'ems.

All that considered, I think you'd have to be giving Lewis too much of the benefit of the doubt to be putting him as a clear number two, though I don't think he's far off. Maybe a spot or two lower for me - but as I said, with the Heavyweights the water is always pretty murky as very few of them, even the greatest ones, have had long, long spells where they've looked totally infallible.

I don't think Wlad is brave enough to have outboxed Lyle like Young, Ali and Quarry managed to. He'd have been scared to death and wouldn't contend with Lyle's strength, power, aggression and fearlessness.

Vitali didn't scare but would have been overpowered in a punch-out similar to the Lewis fight (only this time he ends up on his backside). The guy that mullered Shavers and gave Foreman a pasting would have put Klitschko's ability into context.

Found Shah's article on peak v peak heavyweights and it turns out I had Lewis at 3, not 2.

My list from that article is below and I'm still comfortable with it.

1. Ali
2. Foreman
3. Lewis
4. Tyson
5. Liston
6. Holmes
7. Vitali
8. Wlad
9. Louis
10. Frazier

superflyweight wrote:Found Shah's article on peak v peak heavyweights and it turns out I had Lewis at 3, not 2.

My list from that article is below and I'm still comfortable with it.  

1. Ali
2. Foreman
3. Lewis
4. Tyson
5. Liston
6. Holmes
7. Vitali
8. Wlad
9. Louis
10. Frazier

It is hard to do a top ten. If I looked through mine I would definitely make changes. Think most people have Ali as number 1. That is a given

kingraf wrote:I'd fancy Prime Evil Mike Tyson to beat Lennox... But I agree, one of those guys who's gifts - physical, Coaching etc mean he is a fearsome foe for anyone. Think you're right, and he's there thereabouts in every fight, except the onI es he gets knocked early.

I can't see how you have Tyson beating Lewis when you consider how Mike struggled with Ruddick in their two encounters and how easily Lewis disposed of him,I've always said that Lewis had the beating of Tyson when they were boyh in their prime.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Thurman would have success because of his ability, toughness wouldn't get you anywhere against Mayweather.

Vitali just isn't that good, chuck him in against the fabled peak prime Mike Tyson and he gets annihilated.

Tyson was a tad over rated, just based on his exciting style. I think Vitali would have given him a hard fight.

Tyson might be over rated in some quarters but he still had a fabulous reign as champion, based on what fights do either brother give the very best problems?

rapidringsroad wrote:

kingraf wrote:I'd fancy Prime Evil Mike Tyson to beat Lennox... But I agree, one of those guys who's gifts - physical, Coaching etc mean he is a fearsome foe for anyone. Think you're right, and he's there thereabouts in every fight, except the onI es he gets knocked early.

I can't see how you have Tyson beating Lewis when you consider how Mike struggled with Ruddick in their two encounters and how easily Lewis disposed of him,I've always said that Lewis had the beating of Tyson when they were boyh in their prime.

That's like saying Ali would have had trouble with Gerry Cooney based on their fights with Kenny Norton.

Exactly, look how much Lennox struggled way Bruno when tyson beat him easier. Hearns smashed Duran, Hagler smashed Hearns, Duran went the distance with Hagler.

Was watching Lewis best knockouts earlier, and I have to say, he absolutely demolished Shannon Briggs with some gorgeous shots!! He must have hit like a tank on steroids!! (think we had another topic this week about some sparring partner who had been in with the Heavyweights and said he did indeed hit stupidly hard).

Did he have a suspect chin? Not so sure. He got clocked cold in both of his defeats but has been hit by many a puncher and stood up to them.

His fight with Vitali being a key example as he too hits hard.

Still don't think he is the best ever, although id say he is the best fighter the UK has ever produced.........

Can.....worms........

For me one of Lennox's best performances was his last fight against Vitali. He had clearly lost interest in the boxing game and was being outboxed by the much younger,fitter, and hungrier fighter when he turned the fight around and I'm conviced he would have won the fight in a more dramatic manner if the ref hadn't stopped the fight.Another great performance was his first bout with Holyfield which everyone thought he'd won by a country mile apart from two of the judges who must have been paid off.

hazharrison wrote:Ron Lyle would have beaten the s hit out of the Klitschkos.

No he wouldn't he was very slow, flat footed and the only half decent fighter he KO'd was glass chinned Shavers. I could hardly think of a more ideal opponent for both.

The resident Klitschko butt licker has turned up.

monty junior wrote:

hazharrison wrote:Ron Lyle would have beaten the s hit out of the Klitschkos.

No he wouldn't he was very slow, flat footed and the only half decent fighter he KO'd was glass chinned Shavers. I could hardly think of a more ideal opponent for both.

Me neither. Wlad would need oxygen just to get to the ring.

I think they have a point. Just getting in the ring with Ali means by default you would have cleaned up every division in the history of humanity except of course the one you actually fought in.

Id be surprised if the Klitschkos were able to get through Tubbs, Tucker, Witherspoon, Bruno, Dokes, Thomas, Page with a better than 50/50 record.

Lennox Lewis is No.2 for me. Had all the attributes of a Great Heavyweight and his record is fantastic. Followed his career from his debut and he had a great career.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:The resident Klitschko butt licker has turned up.

Thanks for your input.