Is Dan Biggar the real deal?

Lord Dowlais asked me to make a poll.

Lord Dowlais:

"I would go as far to say that Biggar is the best British or Irish no.10 in Europe at the moment."

Do you agree with this statement?

Discuss.

Oops - I made a mess of this already. I answered yes to "Is Dan Biggar the real deal?", not "Is Dan Biggar the best British or Irish no 10 in Europe at the moment?".

I think he is a very good fly half and top international player. He controls play well and provides a solid platform from which to allow the backs to thrive outside him. Farrell has achieved more thus far, but I think in terms of skillset they are pretty evenly matched and in fact quite similar players. So yes, I would class Biggar as "the real deal".

Best British/Irish 10? Not for my money. Sexton for me, fit and on form, would take that title, and longer term I do think Ford will surpass Farrell as England's 10. Re: Lions 2017, I think both Sexton and Ford will go - regarding 3rd option, either Farrell or Biggar for me. Right now probably Farrell, but my crystal ball tells me Ford will be the England 10 at that stage and Biggar the Wales 10, and therefore Biggar to get the nod.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Oops - I made a mess of this already. I answered yes to "Is Dan Biggar the real deal?", not "Is Dan Biggar the best British or Irish no 10 in Europe at the moment?".

I think he is a very good fly half and top international player. He controls play well and provides a solid platform from which to allow the backs to thrive outside him. Farrell has achieved more thus far, but I think in terms of skillset they are pretty evenly matched and in fact quite similar players. So yes, I would class Biggar as "the real deal".

Best British/Irish 10? Not for my money. Sexton for me, fit and on form, would take that title, and longer term I do think Ford will surpass Farrell as England's 10. Re: Lions 2017, I think both Sexton and Ford will go - regarding 3rd option, either Farrell or Biggar for me. Right now probably Farrell, but my crystal ball tells me Ford will be the England 10 at that stage and Biggar the Wales 10, and therefore Biggar to get the nod.

I do not mean to be picky, but what exactly has Farrell achieved more than Biggar, Biggar has got a six nations title to his name, league titles, what MORE has Farrell achieved, just asking like.

He's only 24 still, he will be 25 next month. And he got his first cap in 2008!
He's taken so much abuse from Welsh fans but since last season he is finally developing into the class player most people knew he would. It's why he's seen off people like Gavin Henson, James Hook and Matthew Morgan for the Ospreys 10 jersey.

He has matured a hell of a lot, and as a result his game has improved ten fold, he will be pivotal for Wales during the next world cup, he knows his own kicking ability down to the centre meter and he also knows when to kick/pass or run, I would even go as far to say that he is more accurate than Halfpenny as well.

Lorddowlais

Farrell has done things that Biggar could only dream of - like reach a HC final, beat Australia (twice), and New Zealand, be part of winning Lions squad, win the Aviva Premiership

Bear in mind that Farrell is almost 2 years younger too.

25 caps for Biggar - 122 points compared to Farrell's 25 caps and 259 points.

Though if I am fair to Biggar he does things that Farrell wouldn't like be part of a team that loses to Japan.

beshocked wrote:Lorddowlais

Farrell has done things that Biggar could only dream of - like reach a HC final, beat Australia (twice), and New Zealand, be part of winning Lions squad, win the Aviva Premiership

Bear in mind that Farrell is almost 2 years younger too.

25 caps for Biggar - 122 points compared to Farrell's 25 caps and 259 points.

That is in a team where Halfpenny takes all the kicks though, it's ok reaching a final but you get nothing for losing, Biggar has WON more on the international stage than Farrell he has also won the Pro12 twice beating a very good Leinster side on their own patch in both finals.

LordDowlais wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Oops - I made a mess of this already. I answered yes to "Is Dan Biggar the real deal?", not "Is Dan Biggar the best British or Irish no 10 in Europe at the moment?".

I think he is a very good fly half and top international player. He controls play well and provides a solid platform from which to allow the backs to thrive outside him. Farrell has achieved more thus far, but I think in terms of skillset they are pretty evenly matched and in fact quite similar players. So yes, I would class Biggar as "the real deal".

Best British/Irish 10? Not for my money. Sexton for me, fit and on form, would take that title, and longer term I do think Ford will surpass Farrell as England's 10. Re: Lions 2017, I think both Sexton and Ford will go - regarding 3rd option, either Farrell or Biggar for me. Right now probably Farrell, but my crystal ball tells me Ford will be the England 10 at that stage and Biggar the Wales 10, and therefore Biggar to get the nod.

I do not mean to be picky, but what exactly has Farrell achieved more than Biggar, Biggar has got a six nations title to his name, league titles, what MORE has Farrell achieved, just asking like.

I think Beshocked has adequately answered that point.....

Hasn't beaten a tri nations side. Struggles to beat sides like Japan,Fiji and Samoa.

Beating NZ is arguably harder to do than win a 6 nations title. Beating Australia has been more difficult for Wales than a 6 nations title, actually beating Japan has been tougher too.....

Oh and England didn't just scrape a victory over NZ either.

I agree you get nothing for losing a final but getting there is something that Biggar is unlikely to do.


I suppose it does pose the interesting question - would you rather beat an opponent you haven't in over 60 years or win a 6 nations title?

Personally I think beating the best rugby side of all time - NZ is one of the highlights of any player's career.

Some players go throughout their whole career having never notched a win vs NZ.

They're all team things. Does mean a lot for an actual player's achievement. Just as Biggar's achievements that are given were team ones.

Farrell has won RPA Young player of the year, that's something Biggar will never be able to do.

beshocked wrote:Hasn't beaten a tri nations side. Struggles to beat sides like Japan,Fiji and Samoa.

Beating NZ is arguably harder to do than win a 6 nations title. Beating Australia has been more difficult for Wales than a 6 nations title, actually beating Japan has been tougher too.....

Oh and England didn't just scrape a victory over NZ either.

I agree you get nothing for losing a final but getting there is something that Biggar is unlikely to do.


I suppose it does pose the interesting question - would you rather beat an opponent you haven't in over 60 years or win a 6 nations title?

Personally I think beating the best rugby side of all time - NZ is one of the highlights of any player's career.

You can tell him that when he is looking at his winners medals when he is fifty, also you harp on about Wales losing to Japan, you do realise that 99% of that squad were 4th or 3rd choice at best. He had his head almost taken off against Samoa and had to be replaced, come on beshocked-TRY HARDER. Also, biggar has not really been given a fair crack of the whip by Gatland, I bet if we had Biggar starting more games than Preistland we would have won one of those games against the Aussies.

hammerofthunor I agree the win vs NZ was certainly a team effort but but Farrell's point haul certainly helped the cause on the day.

As for Farrell, he had a good 6 nations 2014 in general but since then he's not recovered from a foot injury - looking mentally and physically not at the races.

LordDowlais wrote:

beshocked wrote:Hasn't beaten a tri nations side. Struggles to beat sides like Japan,Fiji and Samoa.

Beating NZ is arguably harder to do than win a 6 nations title. Beating Australia has been more difficult for Wales than a 6 nations title, actually beating Japan has been tougher too.....

Oh and England didn't just scrape a victory over NZ either.

I agree you get nothing for losing a final but getting there is something that Biggar is unlikely to do.


I suppose it does pose the interesting question - would you rather beat an opponent you haven't in over 60 years or win a 6 nations title?

Personally I think beating the best rugby side of all time - NZ is one of the highlights of any player's career.

You  can tell him that when he is looking at his winners medals when he is fifty, also you harp on about Wales losing to Japan, you do realise that 99% of that squad were 4th or 3rd choice at best. He had his head almost taken off against Samoa and had to be replaced, come on beshocked-TRY HARDER. Also, biggar has not really been given a fair crack of the whip by Gatland, I bet if we had Biggar starting more games than Preistland we would have won one of those games against the Aussies.                

It goes down as a loss in the record books. Injuries,referees mistakes etc become irrelevant.

To be honest I don't think you would care how you beat NZ - even if it was a 2nd or 3rd choice team.

Gatland is a good coach - why hasn't he been picking Biggar?

3rd or 4th choice is irrelevant - I doubt an English side would lose to Japan. Throw in our England U20s side and they would still probably win.

So is this thread about Biggar vs Farrell or about Biggar as a top 10?!

Personally from what I've seen of Biggar I'd say he is a decent player who will look good at club level and decent at international level but not outstanding.

With regards to pecking order for a Lions tour in the future... I think Farrell has the edge at the moment but if Biggar can nail the 10 jersey for Wales for the next few years he would be in with a good chance. Currently the best FH at Sarries is Hodgson, so Faz needs to up his game really.

Is Biggar the best Lions eligible ten in Europe? Nope see Sexton. Ford and Cipriani have also been fairly awesome early doors.

Is he the real deal? Define real deal. I certainly think he'll be the Welsh flyhalf at next year's world cup. Young Owen Williams looks a real prospect for Wales and Biggar might not have it all his own way at his own club with Davies developing so unsure about future Lions selection.

bathman in london it's about both. It's about the merits of Biggar and he compares to his peers.

Sam talking about real deal I am just going with what Lord dowlais said.

For the record I would say Biggar is competent enough - probably good enough for the Welsh no 10 jersey but wouldn't get a look in at 10 for England or Ireland.

As for Farrell - he's got a lot of competition from the likes of Slade,Ford and Cipriani who might surpass him so there is no guarantee he will make the Lions in 2017.

As for the Irish contenders it depends how Sexton fares.

Biggar plays well for Ospreys. Gatland does not select him. Eventually picks him either when injury demands or am Ai against a "lesser" team. He struggles and Welsh fans start mocking him.

Has happened twice so far I think.

Until Biggar can become undisputed pick by Gatland we have to wait and see.

Dans a great fly half, best in Wales at the mo. Gatland however will play his fave duet Of Phillips and priestland...

Sexton is the best. Biggar and a few others are chasing him but not as good

Farrell is nowhere near the best. Several players ahead of him. Farell is too one dimensional and too easily flustered / riled

What does real deal mean? Is Biggar the best 10 in Wales - probably, but then we have a thin crop to pick from. None of the current options are particularly exciting. In fact I don't see a stand out 10 in the NH. Sexton is probably still the best, but I think Ford could develop into the best 10 the NH has produced for a while. Just an opinion..

Farrels the better 10 if thats the underlying issue.

LordDowlais wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Oops - I made a mess of this already. I answered yes to "Is Dan Biggar the real deal?", not "Is Dan Biggar the best British or Irish no 10 in Europe at the moment?".

I think he is a very good fly half and top international player. He controls play well and provides a solid platform from which to allow the backs to thrive outside him. Farrell has achieved more thus far, but I think in terms of skillset they are pretty evenly matched and in fact quite similar players. So yes, I would class Biggar as "the real deal".

Best British/Irish 10? Not for my money. Sexton for me, fit and on form, would take that title, and longer term I do think Ford will surpass Farrell as England's 10. Re: Lions 2017, I think both Sexton and Ford will go - regarding 3rd option, either Farrell or Biggar for me. Right now probably Farrell, but my crystal ball tells me Ford will be the England 10 at that stage and Biggar the Wales 10, and therefore Biggar to get the nod.

I do not mean to be picky, but what exactly has Farrell achieved more than Biggar, Biggar has got a six nations title to his name, league titles, what MORE has Farrell achieved, just asking like.

Well according to some (not me) the difference must be his 6 games for the Lions and him being part of an England side that beat NZ and Australia

On form he is currently the best 10 out of all those listed in this thread, by quite a margin too.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Farrels the better 10 if thats the underlying issue.

Really? I'd much rather have Biggar. IMO a far better player.

Welsh Magician wrote:On form he is currently the best 10 out of all those listed in this thread, by quite a margin too.

On the basis of what?

On the basis that hes looked good for the Ospreys against Treviso, Dragons and Edinburgh in quite possibly the easiest opening 3 games any team has been lucky enough to bag in the history of the Pro12?

Hes looked good behind a dominant Ospreys pack playing opposition of an incredibly poor quality.  Lets see how he does in Europe against big teams and behind a pack thats not bulldozing Pro12 minnows.  More than this, lets see how he does internationally if he can manage to get picked ahead of Rhys Priestland - something he failed to do at the beginning of the 6N.

Cipriani is probably the on form ten. No one is creating more with less. Not often you see a playmaker perform that well behind a very average pack.

offload wrote:What does real deal mean?  Is Biggar the best 10 in Wales - probably, but then we have a thin crop to pick from.  None of the current options are particularly exciting.  In fact I don't see a stand out 10 in the NH. Sexton is probably still the best, but I think Ford could develop into the best 10 the NH has produced for a while.  Just an opinion..

Got me thinking; when did Wales last have an "exciting" fly half? We had Wellies for years.

I think (like Farrell) Biggar is a bit of a marmite player. Neither are known for their flair which is what the perception of a No10 still seems to be.

Both are solid steady players who what they do very well, for Wales Priestland is the more attacking player and plays the game a lot flatter which helps bring Roberts and Davies into the game but he is such a confidence player that when he loses that his whole game suffers.

England have Ford and Cipriani who are seen as the more attacking style of play but can they control a game as well?

Cardiff Dave wrote:

offload wrote:What does real deal mean?  Is Biggar the best 10 in Wales - probably, but then we have a thin crop to pick from.  None of the current options are particularly exciting.  In fact I don't see a stand out 10 in the NH. Sexton is probably still the best, but I think Ford could develop into the best 10 the NH has produced for a while.  Just an opinion..

Got me thinking; when did Wales last have an "exciting" fly half? We had Wellies for years.

A trundling pedestrian 10 is one of the key pillars of Gatland's management philosophy. The mystery is why he persistently overlooks a perfectly competent candidate like Biggar in favour of the wildly erratic Priestland.

Maybe his way of adding a bit of excitement.

When Priestland was at his best (during WC build up) he was an altogether different type of player and as I said one that suited Wales' style perfectly.

Again though he his such a confidence type player that when things go bad he is at the complete other end of the scale.

I still insist that when Howley was in charge of Wales he done almost irrepairable damage to Pristlands confidence by continuously picking him when we could all see is confidence was in tatters.

Dan is ok and like any half decent 10 plays well behind a strong pack,
but Farrell is God like he beat a vomit bug ridden All Blacks team you know.

bedfordwelsh wrote:I think (like Farrell) Biggar is a bit of a marmite player.  Neither are known for their flair which is what the perception of a No10 still seems to be.

Both are solid steady players who what they do very well, for Wales Priestland is the more attacking player and plays the game a lot flatter which helps bring Roberts and Davies into the game but he is such a confidence player that when he loses that his whole game suffers.

England have Ford and Cipriani who are seen as the more attacking style of play but can they control a game as well?  

Like Aniston in Office Space?
Would've liked to see more of Nicky Robinson in the Welsh jersey, but there we are. Thought he was our best attacking OH of his time for a long while.
For me the future is Biggar and Patchell. Shame the latter is already being messed about*.

LD is highly delusional so I wouldn't really bother posting an article based on his comments... That said, Biggar is the best option for Wales right now, but probably not the best in the British isles.

Priestland has become a bit like the Welsh Ben Youngs. When he was first selected, he looked great, and the whole team sparked into life. He then spent subsequent seasons looking laboured, and has turned into something of a liability at times.

Don't know about Biggar because I haven't seen him play. I think if you want to make a call about best current ten qualified for the Home Nations, then you need to have watched at least Biggar, Ford, Cipriani, Patchell, Sexton, Flood, Farrell, Madigan, Priestland, Keatley, Burns, Weir and Myler. I have a hard time thinking anyone has done that.

The Saint wrote:LD is highly delusional so I wouldn't really bother posting an article based on his comments... That said, Biggar is the best option for Wales right now, but probably not the best in the British isles.

You are in no place to make comments like that after your Ospreys thread are you.

LordDowlais wrote:

The Saint wrote:LD is highly delusional so I wouldn't really bother posting an article based on his comments... That said, Biggar is the best option for Wales right now, but probably not the best in the British isles.

You are in no place to make comments like that after your Ospreys thread are you.

A thread that was an opinion, based on Ospreys history in Europe and their pre-season games? I hardly think that's delusional same as everyone else apart from Ospreys fans and coat-tailers (you). Anyway, it's still early days yet so it could come to fruition. Keep deluding yourself that Biggar is the best in the world and there's a Irish-ref Pro12 conspiracy though LD, it gives us a few giggles.

The Saint wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

The Saint wrote:LD is highly delusional so I wouldn't really bother posting an article based on his comments... That said, Biggar is the best option for Wales right now, but probably not the best in the British isles.

You are in no place to make comments like that after your Ospreys thread are you.

A thread that was an opinion, based on Ospreys history in Europe and their pre-season games? I hardly think that's delusional same as everyone else apart from Ospreys fans and coat-tailers (you). Anyway, it's still early days yet so it could come to fruition. Keep deluding yourself that Biggar is the best in the world and there's a Irish-ref Pro12 conspiracy though LD, it gives us a few giggles.

Saint, firstly the thing I said about the refs was tongue in cheek so if it gave people a few giggles then it was a job well done, secondly, I do not think Dan Biggar is the best in the world, every post you put on these boards has some sort of back handed snide dig at somebody, my OPINION on Biggar is just that an OPINION, the same as the thread that has wrecked any credibility you had on this forum, so like I said, you are in no position to make snide remarks about anybody.

Lorddowlais have to give credit where credit is due - Biggar is winning the vote.

Perhaps Biggar will be the Lions 10 in 2017.

Rugby fan I think you comparing Biggar to B.Youngs is quite apt.

bedfordwelsh can't say I agree about flair being the main thing for a 10. I wouldn't call Sexton a flair 10 - he's just got good basics. Fans just want a good all rounder - ideally in every position. E.g. a winger who can defend as well as attack, a 10 who is all singing and dancing etc.

Unfortunately there are few players that tick every box.

I would say that in general "steady" 10s win more matches than flair 10s because "steady" 10s control the game better.

Sam Cipriani is playing for Sale because none of the top clubs wanted him when he came back from Australia.

How long has Biggar been around?

He's good.  Always considered him much more complete and 'robust' than Priestland - even when Priestland had his alledgedly 'Untouchable' period of 'invincible' form.  I never could understand the preference for Priestland over him - but then I'm not Gats, the All Knowing Oracle of Rugby Wisdom. Is Gats responsible for Biggar not currently being regarded as Europe's best?

But it's just always a gamble talking about a player who is long toothed enough in rugby terms as though they are the new kid on the block.

BUT........ any of these 'best' contenders for 'Best' 10 in Britain or Ireland in Europe (gasp for a pause!)... don't need constant allusions to the bloody Lions to be so.  Their own Nations are good enough as a measuring stick.

England, Ireland, Wales, Scotland, Italy and France................... that's the next big testing ground for all European contenders..... and I don't mean the 6N.

beshocked wrote:Lorddowlais have to give credit where credit is due - Biggar is winning the vote.

Perhaps Biggar will be the Lions 10 in 2017.

Rugby fan I think you comparing Biggar to B.Youngs is quite apt.

bedfordwelsh can't say I agree about flair being the main thing for a 10. I wouldn't call Sexton a flair 10 - he's just got good basics. Fans just want a good all rounder - ideally in every position. E.g. a winger who can defend as well as attack, a 10 who is all singing and dancing etc.

Unfortunately there are few players that tick every box.

I would say that in general "steady" 10s win more matches than flair 10s because "steady" 10s control the game better.

Sam Cipriani is playing for Sale because none of the top clubs wanted him when he came back from Australia.

To be fair Beshocked, I still think it will be Sexton who will be in pole position for the next Lions tour, rightly or wrongly. The thing is with Biggar, in the past, he had a real attitude problem, he seems to have grown out of that now, and because of this he is getting more recognition, but Gatland will not pick him because he is not a YES man, Biggar will play the game as he see's it, if the game plan is not working, he will do something different, I do not think Gatland like's that thus he goes for Preistland 9 time out of 10 because Preistland will keep banging his head against the wall if Gatland told him to keep doing it, if Preistland gets the nod for the AI then serious questionds need to be asked.

It's strange you say that about Priestland because I would never call him a rigid player - a good description is erratic in my opinion.

I would argue that Gatland hasn't picked Biggar more because when Biggar has been given games against teams like Japan and Samoa - Biggar has not lead his team to victory.

I know the Welsh sides weren't full strength but that means that Biggar has to lead by example and put in the inspirational performances.


Farrell is far from perfect but even this season against Wasps when Saracens were under the cosh, Farrell came on - steadied the ship and helped Saracens get that last gasp win. He's not even fully fit and hasn't been for over 5 months.

If Farrell plays well his team generally wins and most of the time they do. I can completely understand why people dislike him - he's not a likeable player but he is a good player when fully fit.

Like Farrell,Biggar is not a likeable player for whatever reason but just like Farrell he has had success at club and international level.

I suppose the biggest difference is that Farrell has had the confidence of the England coaches (having his father there helps), whilst Biggar still hasn't sufficiently convinced Gatland of his worth. Obviously having Farrell Sr in the Lions coaching helped too.

Couldn't have been a starker contrast in summers in 2013 - one was part of a victorious Lions tour as 2nd choice 10 whilst the other was part of a first ever loss to Japan for their team.

beshocked wrote:It's strange you say that about Priestland because I would never call him a rigid player - a good description is erratic in my opinion.

I would argue that Gatland hasn't picked Biggar more because when Biggar has been given games against teams like Japan and Samoa - Biggar has not lead his team to victory.

I know the Welsh sides weren't full strength but that means that Biggar has to lead by example and put in the inspirational performances.


Farrell is far from perfect but even this season against Wasps when Saracens were under the cosh, Farrell came on - steadied the ship and helped Saracens get that last gasp win. He's not even fully fit and hasn't been for over 5 months.

If Farrell plays well his team generally wins and most of the time they do. I can completely understand why people dislike him - he's not a likeable player but he is a good player when fully fit.

Like Farrell,Biggar is not a likeable player for whatever reason but just like Farrell he has had success at club and international level.

I suppose the biggest difference is that Farrell has had the confidence of the England coaches (having his father there helps), whilst Biggar still hasn't sufficiently convinced Gatland of his worth. Obviously having Farrell Sr in the Lions coaching helped too.

Couldn't have been a starker contrast in summers in 2013 - one was part of a victorious Lions tour as 2nd choice 10 whilst the other was part of a first ever loss to Japan for their team.

To be fair Beshocked, we had Robin McBride in charge for that tour, all our other coaches were with the Lions, McBride totally fecked the whole thing up, we also had about 15 players with the Lions, and about 15 players on the injury list, most of the squad was made up of teenagers and premiership players, with the odd fringe player there, Japan are fully pro now, it would not be an easy place for anybody to go with such a depleted caoching and playing staff, McBride more or less admitted said he was out of his depth when coaching that tour.

beshocked wrote:..

Sam Cipriani is playing for Sale because none of the top clubs wanted him when he came back from Australia.

Absolutely true, but players do change over time and form goes up and down. He did come with a lot of baggage and maybe it took a bus to force the point but the 'baggage' has all but gone. Cipriani is doing very very well right now.

Lorddowlais that doesn't really convince me though.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22909676

It's not really that bad a Welsh side - you have players like Prydie,Gill,Biggar,Davies,Williams,Williams and Williams.

I still think that if England had a similar list they would still comfortably beat Japan. Probably even the England U20s side who won the junior RWC would too.

lostinwales wrote:

beshocked wrote:..

Sam Cipriani is playing for Sale because none of the top clubs wanted him when he came back from Australia.

Absolutely true, but players do change over time and form goes up and down. He did come with a lot of baggage and maybe it took a bus to force the point but the 'baggage' has all but gone. Cipriani is doing very very well right now.

In general I guess - didn't watch the Saracens vs Sale game but it sounded from a match report like Charlie outclassed Cipriani. I know there's the whole - "my pack was going backwards excuse" but it's overused.

People talk about: "if only player X had a better pack he would be brilliant, Burns has a better pack now at Leicester...hasn't worked out yet.

It works.... when it's true.  

Crazily talented 10 with a go forward pack = Heaven (in a chariot perhaps)
Mediocre 10 with go forward pack = Frustration and insufficient functionality
Crazily talented 10 with a go backwards pack = Frustation and insufficient functionality

It isn't an excuse overused, it's a conundrum that's true.  A great 10 needs a good team.  A great team needs a good 10.

beshocked wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

beshocked wrote:..

Sam Cipriani is playing for Sale because none of the top clubs wanted him when he came back from Australia.

Absolutely true, but players do change over time and form goes up and down. He did come with a lot of baggage and maybe it took a bus to force the point but the 'baggage' has all but gone. Cipriani is doing very very well right now.

In general I guess - didn't watch the Saracens vs Sale game but it sounded from a match report like Charlie outclassed Cipriani. I know there's the whole - "my pack was going backwards excuse" but it's overused.

People talk about: "if only player X had a better pack he would be brilliant, Burns has a better pack now at Leicester...hasn't worked out yet.

Burns is a bad example.  Yes, on paper he has a better pack at Leicester than he did at Gloucester, and in their opening two games when his pack were on top he looked decent.  Against Bath their pack were blown away and they could have had Dan Carter at 10 it would have made no difference, and against Irish while it wasn't a smashing like in the Bath game, the Tigers pack certainly didn't have any of their usual dominance.  Burns got a lot of slow ball on Saturday.

beshocked wrote:Lorddowlais that doesn't really convince me though.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22909676

It's not really that bad a Welsh side - you have players like Prydie,Gill,Biggar,Davies,Williams,Williams and Williams.

I still think that if England had a similar list they would still comfortably beat Japan. Probably even the England U20s side who won the junior RWC would too.

What, and with a totally inexperienced coaching team as well ?

Lorddowlais if an inexperienced coach like Martin Johnson can win the 6 nations as coach then yes I do. Suppose it helps that England have better coaches than Wales - it's why Wales have been using an Englishman and NZer in their coaching team.

England aren't even using the best coaches in the country for the national side.

Is Mike Catt really better than Alex King as attack coach? Is Andy Farrell really better than Paul Gustard as a defence coach? Not in my opinion no.

That's before you mention directors of rugby like Mallinder and Cockerill.


secretfly you talk about crazily talented 10. Talented in what exactly? Line breaks, running, goal kicking,defensively?

Some 10s who are labelled as talented because of flair but I don't think it's all about that.

A well weighted grubber or cross field takes talent but it's less appreciated than a line break from a 10.

Great teams become great teams because they are just that - they are not individuals. They work well as an unit.

Player X can move to a good side but it doesn't necessarily mean he'll flourish in team Z.

Surely if player X is so crazily talented then team Z would want him?

Controlling a game, putting your team in the right place, marshalling the defence, kicking your goals - not really glamorous but just as important as running through a gap.

A reliable 10 is generally favoured above a flair 10 because of their reliability. They fit so much better into a team mentality.