Is Dan Biggar the real deal?

First topic message reminder :

Lord Dowlais asked me to make a poll.

Lord Dowlais:

"I would go as far to say that Biggar is the best British or Irish no.10 in Europe at the moment."

Do you agree with this statement?

Discuss.

beshocked wrote:

secretfly you talk about crazily talented 10. Talented in what exactly? Line breaks, running, goal kicking,defensively?

Talented in the way talked about talented 10s are generally talked about.  It's not rocket science.  I exaggerate to elaborate.  You gave a reading that the idea of what a 10 might do behind a better pack as something that is overused and not always accurate in the theory attached to it.

I say the theory is true.  You speak about a Team dynamic informing what the 10 does.  All my points agreed with that.  I repeat - a great 10 (and don't deny they get talked about as such - that is the conversation that goes around them and their 'talents') needs a good team to express the talents he has as a 10.  
And a great team (don't deny that's the lingo used about some teams too) need a pretty good 10 to express themselves.  Interdependance.... mutual support...team dynamic.  

But a good 10 in a bad overall team will suffer... just as a pretty useful team with a limited 10 will also suffer.

Biggar's problems have been that; his temprament is suspect, tends to lose his head when things arn't going his way. And, Galtand like a 10 to play flat, attacking the advantage line, that's just not Biggar's game.

Currently on top of the Welsh Pecking order but: Priestland, Patchell, Owen Williams and maybe Anscombe are all looking over his shoulder. He is a banker for starting 10 in the Autumn, an each way bet for starting in the 6N and World Cup. As for the Lions, well he has a long way to go, but who knows?

beshocked wrote:Cipriani is playing for Sale because none of the top clubs wanted him when he came back from Australia.

True, but Saracens have Farrell, Bath have Ford, Quins have Evans, Leicester had Flood. Of the top sides, it's probably only Northampton who might have seen him as an upgrade. Furthermore, was he judged solely as a player, or also on reputation?

Now that he is back, his performances are exceeding expectations.

[quote="Beshocked"In general I guess - didn't watch the Saracens vs Sale game but it sounded from a match report like Charlie outclassed Cipriani. I know there's the whole - "my pack was going backwards excuse" but it's overused.People talk about: "if only player X had a better pack he would be brilliant, Burns has a better pack now at Leicester...hasn't worked out yet.[/quote]

Clearly you've never been behind a beaten pack playing ten with the opposition defence all over you. Knowing you need to stand deeper as you're getting creamed but that if you do you've got no chance of getting over the gain line. It's not a whole load of fun.

Cipriani lacked options because of his priors. Tigers still offered him a deal but he turned that down on the basis they also wanted him to spend some time at fullback. Sale offered three years and little competition. They were also on the back of a top 6 finish at the time with Richie Gray joining as well.

Burns is doing pretty well. Got a man of the match award under his belt. It's not because of him the team are struggling. He's certainly not got the big first team pack in front of him either.

So many English fans say they haven't seen Biggar play!!!!! lets put a few things straight. Halfpenny kicks goals for Wales, therefore Biggars international scoreboard is going to look less than Farrell.
biggar still has over 85% kicking record at the ospreys and that's every season . Biggar took Hooks place at the ospreys and he could do cartwheels on the moon and still fans would rather the rinky dinky run down the blind alley, but give me a clap hook. A flash, dash 10 is what the welsh want.they would rather loose a game and have a basket ball type game with the ooohs and ahhhs than win with the best 10 they have had in a long while.
any moans about Biggar are dragged up from the player he used to be.
now he really is the real deal. This guy has really developed and his reading of the game is exceptional, as well as his kicking. last week he totally masterminded the game against munster. rhys webb was good but Biggar put the team exactly where they should be.
its about time the welsh fans realised how the game has moved on. Sexton? Farrell? Welsh fans wouldn't have them out of choice either !!!!!!!
1970's rugby was great, but lets move on.

That is a bit of a nail on head moment there gavstar, Wales want another Barry John, but the days where a no. 10 did not have to defend are gone, in the modern game, especially at the top level, you need a solid no. 10, somebody who can do all the basics at a very high level, a high kicking percentage, a good defence, and the ability to know when to spread it wide or kick, Dan Biggar has all this, he knows his kicking range down to the CM, and the boy can put in a tackle as well, things like side stepping, and jinking runs and throwing dummies comes after all that, and to be honest, Dan will break the gain line on more times than he is given credit for.

LD,

I have said this before and on many numerous occasions, as you say a lot of us Welsh fans (not me) still want a John, Bennett or Davies type of player.

Yet our two most successful No10s of the past few decades have been Neil Jenkins and Stephen Jones neither of whom were renowned for their flair.

I thought this thread should get air time again, perhaps people have changed their minds.

Sexton is best, Biggar is second best based on what we've recently seen. Farrell was a better player, hence being selected for Lions duty, but right now he isn't. If from continues, the Lions would be hard to beat with Sexton starting and Biggar coming off the bench.

Bringing back an old thread seems to be a massive trend particularly today so it's fair enough lord dowlais for you to join in the fun.

To be fair to Biggar I thought he battled well vs NZ before running out of steam and going off. I guess you could say he represented the Welsh team well.

As for the question - Sexton is still better so no Biggar is not the real deal. Hard working and competent sure - better than Priestland - I'll give you that.

beshocked wrote:Bringing back an old thread seems to be a massive trend particularly today so it's fair enough lord dowlais for you to join in the fun.

To be fair to Biggar I thought he battled well vs NZ before running out of steam and going off. I guess you could say he represented the Welsh team well.

As for the question - Sexton is still better so no Biggar is not the real deal. Hard working and competent sure - better than Priestland - I'll give you that.

And Farrell ?

LordDowlais wrote:

beshocked wrote:Bringing back an old thread seems to be a massive trend particularly today so it's fair enough lord dowlais for you to join in the fun.

To be fair to Biggar I thought he battled well vs NZ before running out of steam and going off. I guess you could say he represented the Welsh team well.

As for the question - Sexton is still better so no Biggar is not the real deal. Hard working and competent sure - better than Priestland - I'll give you that.

And Farrell ?

I really don't see how on earth Farell can be compared to Biggar, nearly all Dan Biggars caps prior to the last 2 seasons have been in weakened Welsh teams against tier 2 nations. Biggar rarely got the chance to play alongside the very best Welsh players at international level. Basically since 2008 Biggar has had to compete against Stephen Jones, then James Hook. Hook has fallen by the wayside and now (hopefully) so has Priestland. So Biggar can establish himself as the number one 10 in Wales.

England have been desperate to replace Johnny Wilkinson since he finished with England and have had to push the only half decent outside half they have had, even now it's arguable their half back pairing and centres aren't settled. In all honesty I don't think Myler, Ford or Slade would be good enough to get called up into the Welsh squad. Fly half just isn't a position England have much talent or depth in. Though Sexton is probably the best Lions option.

Biggar is currently in better form than Farrell Jr. Farrell Jr is mentally and physically a mess at the moment. Farrell Jr on form though has been good for England.

I would still take an in form Farrell Jr over an in form Biggar.

You're mentioning Hook as if he's good 10. He's not. Priestland is inconsistent. Not really good competition is it?

Shifty not sure if you're wumming or not.

I would take Myler,Ford,Cipriani or Slade over all of the 10 options Wales currently have bar Biggar.

It's not as if Wales have numerous decent 10 options.

Jesus beshocked.... you really don't give much hope to your neighbours in any department

Don't know what you mean by that secretfly.

If I was a betting man I would say England will lose to Wales and Ireland next 6 nations - good enough hope for you?

Nope, don't need 6N predictions, beshocked. That's another thread.... and given I had England down for winners the last two years, I'm never swayed by the worth of them

If he has a good six nations then yes he is the real deal but as of right now he is 80% the real deal.
I personally never rated him but he has gone up massively in my expectations.

Beshocked, we would have decent fly half options if they got picked. You can't deny that Rhys Patchell, Owen Williams and even Gavin Henson have shown better form and game controlling nous than priest and hook.

beshocked wrote:Biggar is currently in better form than Farrell Jr. Farrell Jr is mentally and physically a mess at the moment. Farrell Jr on form though has been good for England.

I would still take an in form Farrell Jr over an in form Biggar.

You're mentioning Hook as if he's good 10. He's not. Priestland is inconsistent. Not really good competition is it?

Shifty not sure if you're wumming or not.

I would take Myler,Ford,Cipriani or Slade over all of the 10 options Wales currently have bar Biggar.

It's not as if Wales have numerous decent 10 options.

The basic problem with Hook is he only seems to play well at 10 against England on several occasions I have seen him tear them apart but against everyone else he seems a bit relaxed.

Priestland isn't inconsistent, he's consistently poor, he hit a bit of form in the 2011 world cup but since then he's been bloody awful. The only thing he can do well is catch the ball going left and pass it on, then loop around the inside center to try to create an over lap. He IS consistent at over hitting kicks out on the full, losing the ball in contact, losing his head when his goal kicking fails him, and throwing poor passes which get intercepted costing his team tries.
I remember during the 2011 World Cup, thinking that Wales had a great fly half while people on the ScumV forum were saying once teams work out Priestland he will be an accident waiting to happen and to be honest they have been proved correct. What I will say for Priestland is he will be 28 years old in January, this is not a young boy were talking about, he should be a player at the peak of his powers.

I do find it amazing that Hook Wales career has gone out the window because he was blamed for not attempting a drop goal in the 2011 World Cup game against France, yet Priestland will make 5-8 huge mistakes a game and seems bullet proof in Gatland's eyes. Just look at Preistlands last game against Fiji and you'll see how bad a player he is, or to put it another way, 4 turn overs conceded, 7 tackles made, 3 of them missed, 3 tries scored by Wales and yet he only scored 2 points from 1 conversion. I find it amazing to think Shaun Edwards had the cheek to berate Welsh fans in the media for booing him!

Shifty wrote:

beshocked wrote:Biggar is currently in better form than Farrell Jr. Farrell Jr is mentally and physically a mess at the moment. Farrell Jr on form though has been good for England.

I would still take an in form Farrell Jr over an in form Biggar.

You're mentioning Hook as if he's good 10. He's not. Priestland is inconsistent. Not really good competition is it?

Shifty not sure if you're wumming or not.

I would take Myler,Ford,Cipriani or Slade over all of the 10 options Wales currently have bar Biggar.

It's not as if Wales have numerous decent 10 options.

The basic problem with Hook is he only seems to play well at 10 against England on several occasions I have seen him tear them apart but against everyone else he seems a bit relaxed.  

Priestland isn't inconsistent, he's consistently poor, he hit a bit of form in the 2011 world cup but since then he's been bloody awful.  The only thing he can do well is catch the ball going left and pass it on, then loop around the inside center to try to create an over lap.   He IS consistent at over hitting kicks out on the full, losing the ball in contact, losing his head when his goal kicking fails him, and throwing poor passes which get intercepted costing his team tries.  
I remember during the 2011 World Cup, thinking that Wales had a great fly half while people on the ScumV forum were saying once teams work out Priestland he will be an accident waiting to happen and to be honest they have been proved correct.  What I will say for Priestland is he will be 28 years old in January, this is not a young boy were talking about, he should be a player at the peak of his powers.  

I do find it amazing that Hook Wales career has gone out the window because he was blamed for not attempting a drop goal in the 2011 World Cup game against France, yet Priestland will make 5-8 huge mistakes a game and seems bullet proof in Gatland's eyes.  Just look at Preistlands last game against Fiji and you'll see how bad a player he is, or to put it another way, 4 turn overs conceded, 7 tackles made, 3 of them missed, 3 tries scored by Wales and yet he only scored 2 points from 1  conversion.  I find it amazing to think Shaun Edwards had the cheek to berate Welsh fans in the media for booing him!

No player should be booed at club and especially not country level by their own supporters. It's disgusting. These guys don't pick themselves and they don't go out to intentionally have a bad game. I've played at a very low level and a snide comment from the sideline from one of your own supporters can be so cutting when you drop a catch or make a simple knock on.
Can only imagine how a player must feel to be booed by thousands of his own countrymen simply for being who he is.
Utterly contemptible.

Shifty, I'm guessing you have not seen many Scarlets games this season. Against Leicester in the European cup Priest's kicking went really bad, however he was totally unaffected in the rest of the game, and controlled things very well.

However Biggar is a country mile ahead of the others at the moment, and I would say he must be top one/two in the NH at the moment. Time will tell whether he can stay at that level, or whether he will have a fall from grace himself (he used to be prone to silly mistakes when pressured) if the team around him fail to perform.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Shifty, I'm guessing you have not seen many Scarlets games this season.  Against Leicester in the European cup Priest's kicking went really bad, however he was totally unaffected in the rest of the game, and controlled things very well.

However Biggar is a country mile ahead of the others at the moment, and I would say he must be top one/two in the NH at the moment.  Time will tell whether he can stay at that level, or whether he will have a fall from grace himself (he used to be prone to silly mistakes when pressured) if the team around him fail to perform.

Priestland only controlled well when Shingler came on to help him out. I can't see you getting much further in the competition with those 10s. Your pack will be putting in a lot of hard work then the backs will likely screw things up. If I was Scarlets coach I would consider recruiting a fly-half and winger.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Shifty, I'm guessing you have not seen many Scarlets games this season.  Against Leicester in the European cup Priest's kicking went really bad, however he was totally unaffected in the rest of the game, and controlled things very well.

However Biggar is a country mile ahead of the others at the moment, and I would say he must be top one/two in the NH at the moment.  Time will tell whether he can stay at that level, or whether he will have a fall from grace himself (he used to be prone to silly mistakes when pressured) if the team around him fail to perform.

I've had enough panic attacks over the years watching Richard Fussell play 15 for the Ospreys, I'm not putting myself though anymore stress by watching Priestland for the Scarlets. He's been screwing up since 2005 and it's almost 2015 now.

The Saint wrote:Beshocked, we would have decent fly half options if they got picked. You can't deny that Rhys Patchell, Owen Williams and even Gavin Henson have shown better form and game controlling nous than priest and hook.

Can't argue with that but would you really want any of them starting for Wales at the moment?

Wales like England is going through a tough spell at 10. If you lose Biggar to injury or when he has to come off the field who do you pick?

Oh and I have never been convinced that Henson is a 10 - he seems to be an utility player like Hook these days.

beshocked wrote:

The Saint wrote:Beshocked, we would have decent fly half options if they got picked. You can't deny that Rhys Patchell, Owen Williams and even Gavin Henson have shown better form and game controlling nous than priest and hook.

Can't argue with that but would you really want any of them starting for Wales at the moment?

Wales like England is going through a tough spell at 10. If you lose Biggar to injury or when he has to come off the field who do you pick?

Oh and I have never been convinced that Henson is a 10 - he seems to be an utility player like Hook these days.

I wouldn't mind so long as Biggar was on the bench. Got to try them out some time.

Henson probably is more of a centre, but he seems to have done fairly well at fly-half for Bath. Did he not make their European squad?

Shifty-so your judging a player on cameo appearances, the same as many people have with Webb & Bigger

Saint-Making Bath's Euro squad isn't a sign of international standards, Dom Day is in there too.