The ERCC groups - how they look now

So three weeks before kick-off of the Euro cup and where do the various teams stand

Leinster-Harlequins-Castres-Wasps

After dog rough groups in past few years, Leinster should be feeling reasonably happy with Quins in a bit of a crisis, Castres propping up the T14 although Wasps are in the top half of the Prem. Leinster have been no great shakes so far but you'd have to think this group is there for the winning unless Quins improve dramatically, Castres display some interest in the proceedings for once and Wasps improve a bit more. Verdict - Leinster to win with enough points for a home QF

Sale-Munster-Saracens-Clermont

Munster, currently playing total sh1te, in serious danger of being dumped out before the knockouts with the two big beasts of Sarries and Clermont fighting it out for top slot. Suspect Sarries will top the group with enough for a home QF

Leicester-Ulster-Toulon-Scarlets

Hard to see beyond Toulon and a home QF here to be honest, Leicester and Ulster probably fighting it out for second place

Glasgow-Bath-Toulouse-Montpelier

This must be the best chance Glasgow have ever had of topping a group and a likely home QF. Toulouse in apparent total disarray at joint bottom of T14, Montpelier in mid-table of T14 and will be predictably useless in their away matches. Between Glasgow and an apparently resurgent Bath - but will go for Glasgow

Racing Metro-Northampton-Ospreys-Treviso

Two will go defo through from this group with Treviso there for 10 points to be taken. Ospreys top of Pro12, Saints up high in Prem - think it will be between the two of them with Saints likely to shade it. RM's useless away form means they may lose out

So group wins for Leinster, Saracens, Toulon, Glasgow and Northampton (not sure in which order for home QF's - with the 3 runner-up slots going to Clermont, Ospreys and either Ulster/Leicester or Bath

Thoughts

Looking at those pools against form in the opening rounds of the various league competitions, I would have a stab at the following qualifiers (in seed order);-

1. Northampton Saints
2. RC Toulon
3. Leinster
4. Saracens
5. Bath Rugby
6. Ospreys
7. ASM Clermont Auvergne
8. Glasgow Warriors

Of course, as the pool stage is played over the course of 4 months, form will fluctuate, and I doubt very much that this prediction will come to pass.

Has Glasgow vastly improved? because their away form in the former HC wasnt great as well. Montpelier could grab some BPs on the way with all their fire power. difficult to call but would still fancy Monteplier to just win this although Bath AP form is good as well. Toulouse might just play for honor if they dont win their next 2 home games (agaisnt SF and Toulon).

whocares wrote:Has Glasgow vastly improved? because their away form in the former HC wasnt great as well. Montpelier could grab some BPs on the way with all their fire power. difficult to call but would still fancy Monteplier to just win this although Bath AP form is good as well. Toulouse might just play for honor if they dont win their next 2 home games (agaisnt SF and Toulon).

This is a very open group. Glasgow are certainly stronger than they were this time last year, but we were way below the standard required last year so a huge improvement is needed to Qualify.

It all depends on how serious the French teams take this comp, I don't think they wanted it in the first place, and this could be the first chance they get to stick two fingers up towards the powers to be.

LordDowlais wrote:It all depends on how serious the French teams take this comp, I don't think they wanted it in the first place, and this could be the first chance they get to stick two fingers up towards the powers to be.

They wanted it as much as they wanted the last one. I imagine they would try just as hard for this as for that

Bath will be tough competition for Glasgow. Glasgow like to play an open style of play and Bath have some seriously good attacking players. Ford, Eastmond and Joseph are forming a seriously dangerous midfield and Rokoduguni out wide isn't messing about this season.

I think the French teams will struggle in Glasgow and Bath, but at home they will surely be a different proposition, and I'm not entirely convinced that Glasgow and Bath will prevail in France.

HammerofThunor wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:It all depends on how serious the French teams take this comp, I don't think they wanted it in the first place, and this could be the first chance they get to stick two fingers up towards the powers to be.

They wanted it as much as they wanted the last one. I imagine they would try just as hard for this as for that

Not all of them do though do they ? Only the teams with big recourses do, Toulon, Racing Metro they can afford to take it serious because they have huge squads, the rest just like to keep their best players for their domestic competitions, and lets not talk about how they treat the away games in Europe.

The games between Glasgow and Bath should be belters. Both teams have looked very good in the backs so far. I worry slightly about the Glasgow scrum especially for the games in France. We have been unconvincing so far this season and we may be found out over there.

Other than that I think Ozzy's predictions are spot on

Leinster-Harlequins-Castres-Wasps

Weak group with neither Leinster or Quins in top form. Will go for Leinster to win group but Wasps have a chance of qualifying.

Sale-Munster-Saracens-Clermont

Can't see beyond Sarries who look best team in AP by a good margin.

Leicester-Ulster-Toulon-Scarlets

Toulon to win obviously. I cannot see Leicester qualifying.

Glasgow-Bath-Toulouse-Montpelier

Bath to win group.

Racing Metro-Northampton-Ospreys-Treviso

Northampton to win group.



Group wins for Leinster, Saracens, Toulon, Bath and Northampton.

Runner-up slots going to any three from Glasgow, Ospreys, Ulster, Clermont, Quins or Wasps.

Exiledinborders wrote:Leinster-Harlequins-Castres-Wasps

Weak group with neither Leinster or Quins in top form. Will go for Leinster to win group but Wasps have a chance of qualifying.

Sale-Munster-Saracens-Clermont

Can't see beyond Sarries who look best team in AP by a good margin.

Leicester-Ulster-Toulon-Scarlets

Toulon to win obviously. I cannot see Leicester qualifying.

Glasgow-Bath-Toulouse-Montpelier

Bath to win group.

Racing Metro-Northampton-Ospreys-Treviso

Northampton to win group.



Group wins for Leinster, Saracens, Toulon, Bath and Northampton.

Runner-up slots going to any three from Glasgow, Ospreys, Ulster, Clermont, Quins or Wasps.

Cannot argue with that, although I could fancy Ulster to win their group, their quite handy at Ravenhill.

Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:

whocares wrote:Has Glasgow vastly improved? because their away form in the former HC wasnt great as well. Montpelier could grab some BPs on the way with all their fire power. difficult to call but would still fancy Monteplier to just win this although Bath AP form is good as well. Toulouse might just play for honor if they dont win their next 2 home games (agaisnt SF and Toulon).

This is a very open group. Glasgow are certainly stronger than they were this time last year, but we were way below the standard required last year so a huge improvement is needed to Qualify.

Last year Glasgow blew their two opening games in the HC so were out early. They showed however to be one of the very best teams in Europe pushing Leinster all the way in the pro 12. This year they are better even if still missing some bonus points. Certainly one of the very top teams in Europe probably the best in the Pro 12. Of course anything can happen but I expect them to win their group comfortably even unbeaten and to make the semis if not the finals.

TJ wrote:

Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:

whocares wrote:Has Glasgow vastly improved? because their away form in the former HC wasnt great as well. Montpelier could grab some BPs on the way with all their fire power. difficult to call but would still fancy Monteplier to just win this although Bath AP form is good as well. Toulouse might just play for honor if they dont win their next 2 home games (agaisnt SF and Toulon).

This is a very open group. Glasgow are certainly stronger than they were this time last year, but we were way below the standard required last year so a huge improvement is needed to Qualify.

Last year Glasgow blew their two opening games in the HC so were out early.  They showed however to be one of the very best teams in Europe pushing Leinster all the way in the pro 12.  This year they are better even if still missing some bonus points.  Certainly one of the very top teams in Europe probably the best in the Pro 12.  Of course anything can happen but I expect them to win their group comfortably even unbeaten and to make the semis if not the finals.

Eh? Really?

Glasgow seem to be improving but there's no evidence that they're going to storm the RCC. There's a big difference to doing well in the league to challenging in Europe.

TJ wrote:

Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:

whocares wrote:Has Glasgow vastly improved? because their away form in the former HC wasnt great as well. Montpelier could grab some BPs on the way with all their fire power. difficult to call but would still fancy Monteplier to just win this although Bath AP form is good as well. Toulouse might just play for honor if they dont win their next 2 home games (agaisnt SF and Toulon).

This is a very open group. Glasgow are certainly stronger than they were this time last year, but we were way below the standard required last year so a huge improvement is needed to Qualify.

Last year Glasgow blew their two opening games in the HC so were out early.  They showed however to be one of the very best teams in Europe pushing Leinster all the way in the pro 12.  This year they are better even if still missing some bonus points.  Certainly one of the very top teams in Europe probably the best in the Pro 12.  Of course anything can happen but I expect them to win their group comfortably even unbeaten and to make the semis if not the finals.

Funniest thing I have read on her for some time. Same old hyperbole from you TJ.

Glasgow might have performed admirably in the Pro12 for the last few seasons but it has not transferred to European rugby.

Their form in Europe has been laughably woeful - their win record is one of the worst in Europe.

Perhaps Glasgow will change this season but I am not convinced.

I think Glasgow will be doing well if they can win more than 2 matches. It's not an easy group.

I'll avoid the wang-measuring that's going on here. As a Glasgow supporter, I know there's no evidence or argument that will dissuade me from the belief that they're the best team since the 1918 Red Sox. It goes without saying.

What I will say is that the matches between Bath and Glasgow are shaping up to be the most exciting in a good long while. Two teams with young, energetic squads that play exciting attacking rugby, and who are resented by the supporters from the more fashionable sides in their respective leagues, who lie awake at night fearing their team's inevitable decline into mediocrity.

I love this time of year.

Cyril wrote:

TJ wrote:

Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:

whocares wrote:Has Glasgow vastly improved? because their away form in the former HC wasnt great as well. Montpelier could grab some BPs on the way with all their fire power. difficult to call but would still fancy Monteplier to just win this although Bath AP form is good as well. Toulouse might just play for honor if they dont win their next 2 home games (agaisnt SF and Toulon).

This is a very open group. Glasgow are certainly stronger than they were this time last year, but we were way below the standard required last year so a huge improvement is needed to Qualify.

Last year Glasgow blew their two opening games in the HC so were out early.  They showed however to be one of the very best teams in Europe pushing Leinster all the way in the pro 12.  This year they are better even if still missing some bonus points.  Certainly one of the very top teams in Europe probably the best in the Pro 12.  Of course anything can happen but I expect them to win their group comfortably even unbeaten and to make the semis if not the finals.

Eh? Really?

Glasgow seem to be improving but there's no evidence that they're going to storm the RCC. There's a big difference to doing well in the league to challenging in Europe.

Really - have you seen them play? Full of confidence, pushed Leinster close last season, improved this season, unbeaten so far in the league with a difficult first few fixtures. I think they are right now the best team in Europe. What cost them in last years HC was the two losses early on. Bath have nothing to frighten Glasgow - no team in Europe has.

the only folk who think Glasgow have no chance are those with one eye or those who have not seen them. I have watched the top teams in every league this year and Glasgow look the most complete and most formidable team

Glasgow were not well below the standard last year - they had two bad games that cost them - ambushed early on in the season and out thought tactically. As the season went on they got stronger and stronger and had some very good wins along the way. A well below standard team does not push Leinster all the way. A below standard team does not beat Leinster. They have a very strong defense and a fantastic conventional attacking game backed up with a bit of fijian madness for unpredictability.

for those who haven't seen them play -

Highlights of the demolition of leinster https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giUYoPT42GA


When did you team last beat leinster? Really - I suggest you open your eyes and actually watch them play.

IrnBru - looking forward to the games for sure. Should be good.

TJ wrote:

Cyril wrote:

TJ wrote:

Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:

whocares wrote:Has Glasgow vastly improved? because their away form in the former HC wasnt great as well. Montpelier could grab some BPs on the way with all their fire power. difficult to call but would still fancy Monteplier to just win this although Bath AP form is good as well. Toulouse might just play for honor if they dont win their next 2 home games (agaisnt SF and Toulon).

This is a very open group. Glasgow are certainly stronger than they were this time last year, but we were way below the standard required last year so a huge improvement is needed to Qualify.

Last year Glasgow blew their two opening games in the HC so were out early.  They showed however to be one of the very best teams in Europe pushing Leinster all the way in the pro 12.  This year they are better even if still missing some bonus points.  Certainly one of the very top teams in Europe probably the best in the Pro 12.  Of course anything can happen but I expect them to win their group comfortably even unbeaten and to make the semis if not the finals.

Eh? Really?

Glasgow seem to be improving but there's no evidence that they're going to storm the RCC. There's a big difference to doing well in the league to challenging in Europe.

Really - have you seen them play?  Full of confidence, pushed Leinster close last season, improved this season, unbeaten so far in the league with a difficult first few fixtures.  I think they are right now the best team in Europe.  What cost them in last years HC was the two losses early on.  Bath have nothing to frighten Glasgow - no team in Europe has.  

the only folk who think Glasgow have no chance are those with one eye or those who have not seen them.  I have watched the top teams in every league this year and Glasgow look the most complete and most formidable team

Glasgow were not well below the standard last year - they had two bad games that cost them - ambushed early on in the season and out thought tactically.  As the season went on they got stronger and stronger and had some very good wins along the way.  A well below standard team does not push Leinster all the way.  A below standard team does not beat Leinster.  They have a very strong defense and a fantastic conventional attacking game backed up with a bit of fijian madness for unpredictability.

for those who haven't seen them play -

Highlights of the demolition of leinster https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giUYoPT42GA


When did you team last beat leinster?  Really - I suggest you open your eyes and actually watch them play.  

Erm, Leinster haven't been much cop recently so I wouldn't get too excited about beating them.

Nobody's saying Glasgow have no chance but you really are overstating their position.

You think they're the best team in Europe right now? Let's wait a while and see them play some big games eh?

Big games - Leinster not big enough? The most successful team in Europe in recent years?

I am not saying they will win - of course not. But who is playing better rugby right at this moment? Have you actually seen Glasgow play? when did your team last beat leinster or another top European team?

TJ wrote:Big games - Leinster not big enough?  The most successful team in Europe in recent years?

I am not saying they will win - of course not.  But who is playing better rugby right at this moment?  Have you actually seen Glasgow play?   when did your team last beat leinster or another top European team?

European cup rugby is a BIG step up from Aviva, T14 or Pro12. As I say wait until they play some games at that level and see where they end up. They were bottom of their group last season.

I don't follow a top-level side but I wouldn't put Leinster at the very top level of European rugby as it stands.

Shows how little you know about rugby then. Glasgow is not my teameither. I am an unfortunate MFL fan ( Edinburgh) But I have watched Glasgow play this year and they are playing a brand of rugby that is a steep up from any other I have seen - still a work in progress but when it comes together its sublime.

Who would you say is better than Glasgow right now?

Have you seen them play?

TJ wrote:Shows how little you know about rugby then.

Great. Thanks for proving once again what an annoying and insulting poster you are. It's no wonder no-one enjoys discussing anything with you.

When someone comes out with that line you know it's time to go and post elsewhere

Cyril wrote:
Erm, Leinster haven't been much cop recently so I wouldn't get too excited about beating them.

?

 

1/4 finalists in the HC last year, winners of the pro 12, 3 times winners of the European cup but according to you not much cop?

I ask you again.  Have you actually seen Glasgow play?

TJ, my team Ospreys beat Leinster 2 seasons on the trot, in the Magners League Final the week after Leinster had won the HC IIRC, we have never been further than the QF of the HC, are we or have we ever been a top class European Team? my answer is NO, when we had the players to challenge for these honours, we had some of the most tactically inept coaches in the NH, so I really hope Glasgow do go on and do well in this years competition, but to base what you have done against Leinster as an indicator of how you will do in this years competition has no correlation whatsoever.

I am not basing it on what they have done agaisnt leinster - I am basing it on the way they have played over the last year or so. Especially on how they are playing this year. I have seen no team playing as well, playing such good attacking rugby with such a stonewall defence. Playing so well as a team. Its only an opinion. However I did ask who was playing better and if the people saying they had no chance had seen them play - neither question answered.

Its only an opinion.

Well TJ one thing is for sure you're setting the bar high for your west coast cousins. I respect that hopefully they will show some of this magic in Europe. Looking forward to it eventhough I still dont have a clue where and how I will watch it

whocares wrote:Well TJ one thing is for sure you're setting the bar high for your west coast cousins. I respect that hopefully they will show some of this magic in Europe. Looking forward to it eventhough I still dont have a clue where and how I will watch it

I agree with this basically, it would be nice for a Celtic Nation team to do well in this years competition from outside of Ireland, Glasgow has more chance of this than any other team in the Guiness, I've seen some people think we (Ospreys) will get out of our group, a couple of injuries in any one of half a dozen different positions and we could be in for some severe beatings, we need virtually an injury free run up to Christmas to be still in with a chance. So good luck with it Glasgow.

Cyril wrote: I wouldn't put Leinster at the very top level of European rugby as it stands.

You wouldn't Cyril, and indeed, your prerogative.  
But the record books do.  

As a few here have pointed out - Leinster in Pro12 is Leinster in Pro12... beatable.  Leinster in Europe are still beatable (like all 'top level' European sides are - but you have to play much harder to beat them there.  You gotta be really good.  

Now mention the Genuine "top Level European rugby" sides "as it stands" that don't include Leinster - coz I'm interested to know who they are and where they've proven it.

Secretfly Leinster are a good side but in the last two seasons weren't the best side in Europe - 1 quarter final in that period.

5 teams that have performed better than Leinster in the HC in the last two seasons - Munster,Clermont,Ulster,Saracens and Toulon.

3 of those teams happen to be in the same pool!

Best European side are obviously Toulon at the moment.


As for Glasgow in the top European club competition they have done very little of note.

In their group they have two former winners of the tournament. It's going to be very tough for Glasgow.

Toulouse raise their game for the HC, just like Munster do - league form means less to them.

SecretFly wrote:

Cyril wrote: I wouldn't put Leinster at the very top level of European rugby as it stands.

You wouldn't Cyril, and indeed, your prerogative.  
But the record books do.  

As a few here have pointed out - Leinster in Pro12 is Leinster in Pro12... beatable.  Leinster in Europe are still beatable (like all 'top level' European sides are - but you have to play much harder to beat them there.  You gotta be really good.  

Now mention the Genuine "top Level European rugby" sides "as it stands" that don't include Leinster - coz I'm interested to know who they are and where they've proven it.

The last two seasons they've failed to qualify from their group and got knocked out in the quarter-finals of the elite European competition. For me, that doesn't put them at the 'very top' right now. Toulon, Saracens, Clermont and Munster have been the semi-finalists for the last two years. Leinster may do better this season but they're a bit off the pace and in the chasing group.

Just because they were the best (which they were for a few seasons) doesn't mean they currently are.

Didn't Glasgow lose home and away to the Cardiff Blues in Europe last year ? They cannot be doing things like that and expect to get the respect from others that they claim they deserve, Glasgow in the league are formidable, especially with how their Fijians are playing, Matawalu is some player, but until they are regular quarter finalists to finalist's then in Europe they are just also rans.

beshocked wrote:Secretfly Leinster are a good side but in the last two seasons weren't the best side in Europe - 1 quarter final in that period.

5 teams that have performed better than Leinster in the HC in the last two seasons - Munster,Clermont,Ulster,Saracens and Toulon.

The record shows Leinster weren't the best side in Europe these last two seasons.  I don't argue with results.  Nobody has to claim they weren't the best, the results prove it.  

I do argue with the idea though that after two seasons they're out of contention as one of the Best European sides.  That's a different claim and I don't share it.  Only one of those sides you mention that you say performed better actually won the HC during the last two years..... Leinster is certainly still in the same territory as the others - the coaches of each would brush aside talk that they aren't.

This year might indeed give us more definitive evidence that Leinster are finally slipping away from the top rung (consistenty of underperformance would become a decipherable number if they perform badly this year) - but certainly nothing yet in the story of any side - bar Toulon - suggests Leinster are off the pace of any of those considered top rung sides yet.

beshocked wrote:

Toulouse raise their game for the HC, just like Munster do - league form means less to them.

am not sure Toulouse can afford to get relegated Beshocked...because this what they are heading to if they dont start winning games convincingly. They had their share of bad referees call, loads of injuries and bad luck to be where they are but looking ahead they will also lose players during the AIs and 6N so will have problems to get near the top6 positions if anything. on this basis am not sure what sort of team they will field for the euro games (even at home). It happened to Perpignan last year who got hit with similar problems and the HC only made it worst to them. that said I think Toulouse is just too big to fail

Cyril wrote:
Just because they were the best (which they were for a few seasons) doesn't mean they currently are.

I'll repeat roughly what I said to beshocked.  Your original point wasn't about Best side - let's not change the fabric of it now.

Your original point alluded to best sides in Europe.  I still say it takes more than two years (with a quarter final in one of them) to write off a 3 times winning Championship side (3 times in the last six years that is - so crunched together too in a tight enough time space) as not still up there as a serious European side.  
3 wins, a semi-final and a quarter final within six seasons is not to be sniffed at as proof of potent consistency.  The year outside the playoffs is more the blip at this point in time when looking at the records.  You say they're no longer considered a genuine threat to the top, I say that's about a year or even two away from an accurate reading...in logical terms

beshocked wrote:

TJ wrote:

Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:

whocares wrote:Has Glasgow vastly improved? because their away form in the former HC wasnt great as well. Montpelier could grab some BPs on the way with all their fire power. difficult to call but would still fancy Monteplier to just win this although Bath AP form is good as well. Toulouse might just play for honor if they dont win their next 2 home games (agaisnt SF and Toulon).

This is a very open group. Glasgow are certainly stronger than they were this time last year, but we were way below the standard required last year so a huge improvement is needed to Qualify.

Last year Glasgow blew their two opening games in the HC so were out early.  They showed however to be one of the very best teams in Europe pushing Leinster all the way in the pro 12.  This year they are better even if still missing some bonus points.  Certainly one of the very top teams in Europe probably the best in the Pro 12.  Of course anything can happen but I expect them to win their group comfortably even unbeaten and to make the semis if not the finals.

Funniest thing I have read on her for some time. Same old hyperbole from you TJ.

Glasgow might have performed admirably in the Pro12 for the last few seasons but it has not transferred to European rugby.

Their form in Europe has been laughably woeful - their win record is one of the worst in Europe.

Perhaps Glasgow will change this season but I am not convinced.

I think Glasgow will be doing well if they can win more than 2 matches. It's not an easy group.

Beshocked you say the same thing about Saracens every year!

Glasgow are far more consistent than the other 3 teams, they just need to hope they can transfer league form over. I think they'll do better this year though they won't storm the RCC as has been suggested.

SecretFly wrote:

Cyril wrote:
Just because they were the best (which they were for a few seasons) doesn't mean they currently are.

I'll repeat roughly what I said to beshocked.  Your original point wasn't about Best side - let's not change the fabric of it now.

Your original point alluded to best sides in Europe.  I still say it takes more than two years (with a quarter final in one of them) to write off a 3 times winning Championship side (3 times in the last six years that is - so crunched together too in a tight enough time space) as not still up there as a serious European side.  
3 wins, a semi-final and a quarter final within six seasons is not to be sniffed at as proof of potent consistency.  The year outside the playoffs is more the blip at this point in time when looking at the records.  You say they're no longer considered a genuine threat to the top, I say that's about a year or even two away from an accurate reading...in logical terms

I'm not writing them off or saying they aren't a genuine threat. What I am saying is they're not one of the very top sides at the moment. They've failed to make a semi-final in the last two years and four other sides have two years running. That tells me what the pecking order is at the moment. Toulon the clear front-runner (2 wins in a row) followed by the other three sides to reach the semis two years running.

The Saint wrote:

beshocked wrote:

TJ wrote:

Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:

whocares wrote:Has Glasgow vastly improved? because their away form in the former HC wasnt great as well. Montpelier could grab some BPs on the way with all their fire power. difficult to call but would still fancy Monteplier to just win this although Bath AP form is good as well. Toulouse might just play for honor if they dont win their next 2 home games (agaisnt SF and Toulon).

This is a very open group. Glasgow are certainly stronger than they were this time last year, but we were way below the standard required last year so a huge improvement is needed to Qualify.

Last year Glasgow blew their two opening games in the HC so were out early.  They showed however to be one of the very best teams in Europe pushing Leinster all the way in the pro 12.  This year they are better even if still missing some bonus points.  Certainly one of the very top teams in Europe probably the best in the Pro 12.  Of course anything can happen but I expect them to win their group comfortably even unbeaten and to make the semis if not the finals.

Funniest thing I have read on her for some time. Same old hyperbole from you TJ.

Glasgow might have performed admirably in the Pro12 for the last few seasons but it has not transferred to European rugby.

Their form in Europe has been laughably woeful - their win record is one of the worst in Europe.

Perhaps Glasgow will change this season but I am not convinced.

I think Glasgow will be doing well if they can win more than 2 matches. It's not an easy group.

Beshocked you say the same thing about Saracens every year!

Glasgow are far more consistent than the other 3 teams, they just need to hope they can transfer league form over. I think they'll do better this year though they won't storm the RCC as has been suggested.

Yes but there is a significant difference between Saracens and Glasgow.

Saracens have a far better overall European record.

in the last three seasons they reached the quarter finals the semi finals and final respectively of the HC.

They haven't won the European competition yet but they've in the mix on more than one occasion - cannot say the same of Glasgow.

I have to agree with Beshocked there. You would need to be mad to say we (Glasgow) have a better chance of doing well than Sarries.

The 2 most frustrating things about being a Warriors fan is our inability to beat Leinster in the playoffs and our complete inability to transfer league form into Europe.

I think we have the best team and are playing the best rugby of any team in our group however I would still not be surprised to see us finish anywhere from 1st to 4th in the group.

Weirdly, I would say I was more confident in winning the playoffs than I am about getting into the knockout stages in Europe.

Glasgow done Nothing in Europe worth diddly squat!

Okay..that's the fact then.

Another fact though is they're a damn good side who possibly, like Munster in their old days of yore, are kinda ignored as a side with the ability to compete in Europe by the elites, and are probably themselves trying to find a confidence level there still that will allow them to.  
But if they find it, and if a few good results were to come their way and aided that confidence level - then they certainly tick a lot of boxes in skill terms, and more particularly in the style they play, to make any side - any side - work furiously for a victory over them.

Outsiders - yes.  Winners? - as possible as Clermont Finally getting there after so many attempts!  The shining lights don't always win - as we've seen - and the humble underdogs don't always lose.  That's the beauty.

secretfly wayne summed it up nicely when he compared Glasgow to the Ospreys.

Ospreys are a team who did very well in the Pro12 - they actually won it on more than one occasion too.

Unfortunately when it came to the HC - Ospreys did not perform as well. Doesn't mean they are a bad side, it's just the form didn't transfer over.

Castres are in a similar position. They have shown a knack for performing well in the Top 14 recently but haven't done well in the HC.


http://www.oddschecker.com/rugby-union/european-champions-cup/winner

Why not put a punt on it - 80-1 you can get for Glasgow to win.

14th favourite to win.

http://www.oddschecker.com/rugby-union/european-champions-cup/european-champions-cup-pool-4/winner

10-1 for Glasgow to top the pool.

Comparing Glasgow to Munster?

beshocked wrote:
Comparing Glasgow to Munster?

Why not? I see Glasgow play more than you do. I know how good they can be. I know how sticky and frustrating they can be when their confidence is up.

But why not compare Glasgow to Munster??? This always gets me. Some people judge the present by only contemplating the present. But the present only becomes the present after it's already done a period in the past
Munster can't be spoken of in the same breath as Glasgow because why? - because at least they've proven they can handle the HC? Is that the reason?

It's not a good enough reason if so, because before Munster learned how to handle the HC - they couldn't Before Munster were European Champions - they were just another Glasgow. So were Leinster. So were many of the sides that formed reputations - they all had a beginning that was informed by a generalised public opinion that they 'didn't stand a chance' in Europe.
The century is young and Glasgow, for now, are a good side. Ospreys are Ospreys - their history is their own. Glasgow isn't controlled by Osprey's history anymore than they are destined to repeat Leinster's.

Who should win the European Cup based on their past HC records is really hopeless chat. Who might win it is still possible for many sides... and I'd say that includes Glasgow.

Fly, +1

secretfly we'll see.  To be respected in a competition you have to earn it. Glasgow in the HC never have.

Munster have proven time and again that they can't be written off in the HC regardless of how well or how badly the Pro12 is going.

Know how good they can be - that's what basically every single team says - on our day we can beat anyone etc....

You sound confident - put your money where your mouth is.

You can keep saying Glasgow are a good side but till they front up to the best sides in Europe they cannot in my eyes be seen as contenders for the european champions cup.

Glasgow got talked up last season in the HC too....

You and TJ have hyped up Glasgow to the maximum - I am now expecting Glasgow to at least top their pool. You've convinced me that they are the team to watch.

Yeah, but beshocked...I'm simply saying I'm not comparing Glasgow with the Munster side who have always seemed to keep themselves there or thereabouts in Europe (even in shoddy form years elsewhere)..I'm comparing Glasgow now, and the potential of Glagow now - with the Munster of before the legend and heroics and grim determination.  Before you knew of Munster they were nobodys in Europe.

My simple point is that Beginnings of Reputations happen somewhere.  Toulon is well on its way to creating its European reputation - but they were nowhere to be seen when Munster started winning, back in the day.  Time changes who the guys with repuations are.

Munster won their 1st HC in 2005-6 but before that they were not nobodies in Europe!

Their awesome record at Thomond Park has been in place for a long time. Munster had quite a few near misses before winning their first HC.

Leinster are similar - they weren't nobodies before their first title! They had been in semi finals and quarter finals.


The difference between them in Glasgow is that Glasgow have no platform to go off.

It's naive to think most sides will go from appalling European record to winners in one season.

Not every side is a Toulon. Most sides have near misses.

It's like saying that Clermont and Saracens are nobodies because they haven't won a HC. If they continue to fight in the latter stages then you would expect them to eventually pick up an European title.

beshocked, you just won't give it  
Munster were nobodies before they were somebodies.  That's just fact.  In terms of turning the eye of the big sides in Europe, that didn't happen until it started to happen.  Whether that was the shocks of the near misses or the wins; before any of that, there was a bundle of rugby people in Europe who wouldn't have believed any of it - either about Munster first or Leinster second.

If Glasgow got to a semi-final this year (and Edinburgh did a short while back, so Glasgow hitting that mark isn't so far fetched!) that would be a notch that would get the French and English press thinking.  And if they hit a quarterfinal point the following year playing the often eye-catching rugby they can play, then that's another tap on the forehead of teams and regions of Europe that for now wouldn't even know where Glasgow really is.  Reputations comes to teams that didn't have one initially.

But I'll leave it with you.  You seem to still insist that because Glasgow haven't made an impact on Europe already therefore it must get in line in the queue behind the other impact making sides who haven't yet actually won the title.  Perhaps that's an argument that can be debated but it's not one I require in logical terms.  Glasgow can play well enough to win the title right now.  Will they?  Well that's the betting shop stuff.  But they can play well enough to win it right now.

secretfly it's simply because I find your viewpoint incredibly baffling at times.

To you European records count for nothing.

You're expecting them to make an impact based on league form. I am just saying that league form can go out of the window when it comes to European rugby.

I personally don't think Glasgow are good enough to beat the likes of Toulon,Munster,Saracens,Leinster,Clermont and Ulster in Europe. We'll see won't we?

Also as I said before - Glasgow were hyped up last season but went out of the HC with a whimper - what's changed?

Not saying get in line - I just don't see them challenging the top teams.

If they prove me wrong - fair enough - I just feel like you are being unrealistic.

Hmmm. I have seen 4 of Glasgow's last 6 competitive games. They were run very close by Munster in their Pro12 s/f. Then got pumped by Leinster in the final.

This season they nearly contrived to lose to an out of sorts Leinster, who didn't fire a shot for 65 minutes (and were, rescued by a last minute penalty. The easily beat a Blues team that didn't create a chance of note.

The games I didn't see were the last two against Dragons and Connact, which were not on terrestrial TV. Both Glasgow wins - Dragons have been woeful this season and Connacht are not exactly a Pro12 powerhouse despite their unbeaten start up to that point.

I'm not saying that Glasgow can't succeed, but they will face sterner tests against better attacking teams in their Pool. Certainly their opening two games v Bath (H) and Montpellier (A) will tell us more.

Let me go back to the Ospreys if you don't mind, IIRC it was around 2007 and we HAMMERED Saracens in the English/Welsh SF at the Mill Stad, 2 weeks later I went on the ONLY away match that I've supported the Ospreys other than Judgement day to Vicarage Road, and a bloke with a dodgy knee scuppered our chances with an absolutely outstanding display in that match, and our totally inept coach basically used exactly the same gameplan and didn't change it until it was miles too late. If the early match had been the HC and the reverse match the one the Saracens won, with the extra points we could well have had different groups in subsequent years and our history so very different.
The bloke with the dodgy knee was a certain Richard Hill, who in all my Ospreys watching days totally outplayed Marty Hollah to such an extent I've never seen before or after, and our coach is now Director of Coaching at the Dragons, we called him the Joker, on the Ospreys Worst Welsh Region topic, a few said the Dragons had a better coaching setup than us, never in a million years with him in charge, they'll wise up to him, for their sake I hope they learn his limitations a lot quicker than our Directors did, many on our boards wanted him gone the following season

beshocked wrote:

The Saint wrote:

beshocked wrote:

TJ wrote:

Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:

whocares wrote:Has Glasgow vastly improved? because their away form in the former HC wasnt great as well. Montpelier could grab some BPs on the way with all their fire power. difficult to call but would still fancy Monteplier to just win this although Bath AP form is good as well. Toulouse might just play for honor if they dont win their next 2 home games (agaisnt SF and Toulon).

This is a very open group. Glasgow are certainly stronger than they were this time last year, but we were way below the standard required last year so a huge improvement is needed to Qualify.

Last year Glasgow blew their two opening games in the HC so were out early.  They showed however to be one of the very best teams in Europe pushing Leinster all the way in the pro 12.  This year they are better even if still missing some bonus points.  Certainly one of the very top teams in Europe probably the best in the Pro 12.  Of course anything can happen but I expect them to win their group comfortably even unbeaten and to make the semis if not the finals.

Funniest thing I have read on her for some time. Same old hyperbole from you TJ.

Glasgow might have performed admirably in the Pro12 for the last few seasons but it has not transferred to European rugby.

Their form in Europe has been laughably woeful - their win record is one of the worst in Europe.

Perhaps Glasgow will change this season but I am not convinced.

I think Glasgow will be doing well if they can win more than 2 matches. It's not an easy group.

Beshocked you say the same thing about Saracens every year!

Glasgow are far more consistent than the other 3 teams, they just need to hope they can transfer league form over. I think they'll do better this year though they won't storm the RCC as has been suggested.

Yes but there is a significant difference between Saracens and Glasgow.

Saracens have a far better overall European record.

in the last three seasons they reached the quarter finals the semi finals and final respectively of the HC.

They haven't won the European competition yet but they've in the mix on more than one occasion - cannot say the same of Glasgow.

What have Saracens won lately though? Nothing as far as I know. Replace Saracens with a Welsh team for the past few years and that is EXACTLY what you would be saying to everyone.