Lion John Taylor on the ups and downs of promotion and relegation in the English Premiership

We are just six weeks into the Aviva Premiership season but Saturday is D-Day for London Welsh with 'D' potentially standing for 'Disaster'.


Another bad loss against Newcastle Falcons at the Kassam Stadium to go with the five drubbings so far means there is no chance of survival and it is going to be a very bleak winter, whatever the weather. The mantra for any newly promoted team is '11th place will do' and nobody expects much change from teams in the top half of the table but Newcastle are 11th and the hope was that they were struggling just as much as the Welsh.
That perception changed dramatically with their victory over Exeter last Sunday. It ended a losing streak of 20 defeats in the Premiership and it was achieved against a side that had beaten the Exiles 52-0 on the first weekend of the season.

It was not supposed to be like this. When Welsh were promoted two seasons ago the legal battle to be allowed to play in the top flight took until the beginning of July and that left less than two months to create a team capable of competing in the Premiership.
We were helped by Bourgoin going into administration which meant we were able to pick-up a couple of experienced, grizzly French props looking for a job pretty cheaply but, relying on quite a few of the players who had won promotion, the team fought tenaciously and might have pulled-off the miracle of survival had we not been docked five points for falling foul of the registration regulations - unbeknown to the club, a rogue team manager (highly recommended but necessarily hired in haste) forged documents to shortcut the legitimate process.

This time there were a full three months to prepare - still hopelessly inadequate - and 25 new players were brought in including a couple of marquee signings, Piri Weepu and Ollie Barkley, but they have been totally outclassed in every game so far.
Coach Justin Burnell still insists he has the quality to survive and promises Welsh will come good eventually but they have shipped an average of 50 points a match and even the most loyal supporters' faith is being sorely tested.

It may sound harsh but they were reduced to picking among the leftovers.

With so many new players and no Welsh core questions have been asked about commitment to the cause but Burnell insists morale is high and it is more a question of bedding down into a team under very difficult circumstances.

This begs the question of whether any club can prepare properly for promotion as the gap between the Premiership and the Championship widens inexorably with every year. I believe it is now impossible unless there is sufficient funding in place to gamble midway through the season so that the aspiring club can start to make signings in hope because there can be no certainty.
Bristol, with a huge injection of cash from billionaire, Steve Lansdown, committed to that last year only to be pipped in the play-offs by London Welsh having finished top of the table at the end of the regular season. They are topping the table again this year and that is hardly surprising when you look at the squad. There is a wealth of Premiership and international experience, headed ironically by a group of Welshmen - Dwayne Peel, Nicky Robinson, Ian Evans and Ryan Jones (what the Exiles would give for that quartet). The wage bill must be double that of any other club in the division except perhaps Worcester, the club relegated from the Premiership last season.

London Welsh have nowhere near the same resources and could not afford to gamble. Professional rugby players hate to be out of contract and most, if not all, the players they would have targeted had been tied into new deals long before the end of May. It may sound harsh but they were reduced to picking among the leftovers.

Even then a serious injection of money would have helped but the funding system for Premiership clubs is iniquitous - discriminatory and totally geared to looking after the interests of the founder members. Senior clubs such as Leicester and Northampton can claim about three times as much from the central pot as a newly promoted team. This includes payments for players involved in England's elite squads but they also benefit enormously from a shareholding system that effectively denies an equal footing for the newcomers.
This means London Welsh get something in the region of £2 million less than clubs who have always been in the Premiership at a time when they need more as they try to market themselves to a new supporter base and put a new team together with no academy to draw on.
Only Exeter have managed to buck the system. They deserve all the plaudits they have been given and having fought, successfully, for a place at the top table I know their owner, Tony Rowe, believes others should have to prove themselves in the same way.
That is all very well if you want to create an elite set of what will effectively become franchises with no relegation or promotion - good for business but not necessarily for the game. If you truly believe in a pyramid structure with competition right to the top there has to be a system where, at very least, the dice are not financially loaded against the newly promoted clubs. It is tough enough already as London Welsh know only too well.

So what hes saying is that its all the RFU and PRL's fault welsh are getting dry humped everyweek.

I watch as much of the Aviva as Pro12 (ticket holder at Bath and Dragons) and I can say without doubt the Aviva is the stronger league with more quality games week in week out. I think relegation has something to do with that.

I also think though - that if the promoted club got a fairer share of the spoils it would be an even stronger promotion/relegation system with benefits to the Championship league.

It not good for the Aviva to have the new boys, whoever they are, thumped every week and letting in 36 tries in 6 games !

Part of the problem is determining who goes through based on a last minute shoot out.

You could say that if you are really serious about moving up a division you should start your planning a lot earlier than the end of the season. Yes it is a big gamble then but its also a gamble waiting to see what bunch of passed-its and never-were's are available on the transfer market when you do get promoted.

I don't know if there is an option to not be promoted instead? Just take a wad of cash to help build the club up for next year?

However things move on, LW's promotion and subsequent displays have been terrible for everyone.

As far as I'm concerned relegation isn't for the premiership. It's for the championship. London Welsh can bitch and moan about the system but they decided to go for a load of new players and guess what? They're playing like they've never played together before. They may come good over the season but it'll probably be too late. I can't help but think that they would have been better off sticking with most of their players from the championship and bringing in a few better players to suppliment, not replace.

And a big part comes down to coaching. Good coaches get the best out of 'average' players. Bad coaches will get the worst out of good players.

However LW would of had the parachute payment last season, as well as prize money for promotion. This is the second time LW have come up, and both times have made a hash of the pre-season in regards to preperation, trying to blame all and sundry for their own failings in absurd. Also what has having a core of "welsh" players got to do with it? cant see Saracens having a core of middle eastern players, or Exeter having a strong native american infulence.

And both Quins and Saints have been relegated and returned the following year without having to change all their squad

There is an iniquity between the moneys received, and the funding for the Championship is very low - so even with the parachute payment (and the other Championship clubs believe this to be unfair) it is hard to keep players on Premiership money.


However this does not take away from the fact that London Welsh are completely unprepared for Premiership life. They could be excused that once, but twice?

Hell even the announcer at the Kassam called them London Scottish.

LondonTiger wrote:There is an iniquity between the moneys received, and the funding for the Championship is very low - so even with the parachute payment (and the other Championship clubs believe this to be unfair) it is hard to keep players on Premiership money.


However this does not take away from the fact that London Welsh are completely unprepared for Premiership life. They could be excused that once, but twice?

Hell even the announcer at the Kassam called them London Scottish.

What do they want? Congrats your promoted heres 6mil? ok guys when you play LW once you reach 4 trys you have to take 2 players off and not tackle as much to make it fair for them?

Maybe scrap the playoff and have the strongest over the year come up rather than a team that you could say got lucky for two games

What is wrong is that the clubs already up get a higher amount from the central funding, covering TV money etc

However this is used as an excuse for much bigger failings at LW

Yep. I'd prefer a system similar to that in France where the Pro rugby leagues combined to run the pro club rugby. If we can get that I wouldn't be against teams requiring a pro license that is semi-ring fenced to ensure they have the proper structures in place for pro rugby.

I'm not sure the problem is so much it being impossible to transition from Championship to Premiership, as it is LW being rubbish. It's not easy, but what's happening this season hasn't exactly been happening every year. Seems like a bit of an overreaction.

I think it's because they spend shed loads of money bring in 'marque' signings like Olly Barkley and it's kind of backfired on them.

The decision to bring in a pile of has-beens has definitely backfired.

The team that beat Bristol several times last season would have done better.

LondonTiger wrote:The decision to bring in a pile of has-beens has definitely backfired.

The team that beat Bristol several times last season would have done better.

It still represents a notable change, but 8 of the starting 15 on Saturday were with Welsh last season. They do have a number of last season's players out injured too, so it does go to show that the 26 brought were intended to strengthen the squad rather than change the face of the 15. Unfortunately they haven't strengthened the squad!

The dual registration system hasn't exactly helped them either. Last year they had a good few AP youngsters who played for them for the season, but unless Welsh were going to buy them out of their contracts, they were never going to be available for this season.

I know for example that 2 Bath youngsters started the play off finals for them, at lock and SH. Arguably they have upgraded with Weepu anyway, but it can't help to lose a number of your starting team without even the option to keep them on.

I agree with alot of the above.

Its Welsh's fault that they chose to repalce their entire side just about...with Hasbeens.
The team that got them up was familiar, had a good pack and were dogged etc.

The one thing that does need scrapped though is the championship play offs....they're a massive problem!

Bathman_in_London wrote:The dual registration system hasn't exactly helped them either. Last year they had a good few AP youngsters who played for them for the season, but unless Welsh were going to buy them out of their contracts, they were never going to be available for this season.

I know for example that 2 Bath youngsters started the play off finals for them, at lock and SH. Arguably they have upgraded with Weepu anyway, but it can't help to lose a number of your starting team without even the option to keep them on.

Weepu has had a fantastic career but I dont think the current version brings anything except experience.

Until the Championship is taken seriously as a feeder league by the Premiership then the problems of LW and any other promoted side will continue.
The premiership sides "know" that unless something goes mightily wrong, it will always be the newly promoted side plus Newcastle plus one or two others that will be in relegation trouble and they top half clubs are only playing for league position, Euro places or the play offs - and even if the unthinkable happens they'll keep the players and support in the Championship and bounce back.

it will always be the newly promoted side plus Newcastle

Might not always be us....we have a very good plan and are following it nicely.

John Taylor wrote:London Welsh get something in the region of £2 million less than clubs who have always been in the Premiership at a time when they need more as they try to market themselves to a new supporter base and put a new team together with no academy to draw on.

This highlights LW's core issue, they're still trying to cut corners in what is the only really sustainable way to stay in the Premiership.  No matter how much money you spend on a new squad it's never going to be competitive enough from the off.  To beat established teams you need one yourself. Any side getting promoted and wanting to stay there has to have already built a coherent squad over a season or two that only requires limited tinkering to be in the mix with the lower ranked Premiership sides in that first season.  Exeter once again showed the way in this regard; you don't need big name signings, just good coaching and team ethos with high quality Championship level players that are capable of developing.

An academy is absolutely critical to this and that LW still don't have one when the majority of Championship sides manage to is a mix of criminal and insane.  Not having one before they came up last time was a huge mistake, failing to get one running in the interim points to shortsightedness and ineptitude, it should have been the first thing they did with their parachute payment.  Taylor questions what sort of clubs are good for the game, well ones with academies most certainly are, for both the club's future and the rugby playing communities that surround them and that they hope to draw support from.  Investing in rugby's future is the most meaningful thing any club can add to the sport and not using a place in England's top professional league to help bring young players on is an unbelievable waste.

If I was LW director I'd play things smart and employ an entire Championship squad and a Premiership squad....just in case your team meets itself either on the way up or the way down - or worst of all - both at the same time.

The joys of promotion/relegation.

What is interesting is that nearly everyone posting on this thread agrees with JT's comments in the premiership you must have a billionaire backer or have assets worth a fair few quid.

Without either of those, how is a team that gains promotion every other year ever going to be able to compete, to improve and grow in the Premiership?

Exeter Cheifs are a poor comparison. They are fromthe south west, a part of England that is passionate about rugby, with formerly no top class representation. They had a huge fan base.

In south west London alone the mighty quins are across the street in the capital there are also Saracens there was London wasps and London Irish...

Three famous capital teams are now out of London because they can't find stadia and have had to move a long way from their original home... I think we can safely say they struggled to move their historical fan base too...

Oxford Welsh

Coventry Wasps

Reading Irish



I think it is sad that some very famous, great clubs are being forced to lose their illustrious heritage because of what the game is becoming in the professional era...!

hawalsh wrote:

John Taylor wrote:London Welsh get something in the region of £2 million less than clubs who have always been in the Premiership at a time when they need more as they try to market themselves to a new supporter base and put a new team together with no academy to draw on.

This highlights LW's core issue, they're still trying to cut corners in what is the only really sustainable way to stay in the Premiership.  No matter how much money you spend on a new squad it's never going to be competitive enough from the off.  To beat established teams you need one yourself. Any side getting promoted and wanting to stay there has to have already built a coherent squad over a season or two that only requires limited tinkering to be in the mix with the lower ranked Premiership sides in that first season.  Exeter once again showed the way in this regard; you don't need big name signings, just good coaching and team ethos with high quality Championship level players that are capable of developing.

An academy is absolutely critical to this and that LW still don't have one when the majority of Championship sides manage to is a mix of criminal and insane.  Not having one before they came up last time was a huge mistake, failing to get one running in the interim points to shortsightedness and ineptitude, it should have been the first thing they did with their parachute payment.  Taylor questions what sort of clubs are good for the game, well ones with academies most certainly are, for both the club's future and the rugby playing communities that surround them and that they hope to draw support from.  Investing in rugby's future is the most meaningful thing any club can add to the sport and not using a place in England's top professional league to help bring young players on is an unbelievable waste.

Couldn't agree more.  I get no sense of who London Welsh are as a club in rugby and player terms.  Last time round they were underestimated grafters, a team who were greater than the sum of their parts, but there is no continuity from then and with no academy I can't see any identity or shape going into the future, just a blazer run club that jettisoned most of the squad that got them promoted and tried to prevent relegation by buying a new one, most of whom likely won't be there in a year or two.  That isn't a solid recipe for success or one that will endear supporters and win them new ones.  John Taylor and the others that direct London Welsh need to look again at the stuctures and more than a decade of hard work that Exeter put into achieving what they have and learn the correct lessons that will stand them in better stead for any future opportunity in the AP, taking particular note of how many players their academy have contributed to England age grade teams in recent years and the importance many of them have in the senior side along with their numerous still retained Championship players that won them promotion.  Real clubs develop players rather than buy them, it forms the character and cement of a side, with the added bonus that it's cheaper.

I know in the big picture of things its about the 1st team but LWs minis, juniors and youth section is thriving so the whole LW set up and establishment isn't bad its just their 1st team are out of their depth BUT what do you do about it?

They rightly won promotion so what (more than likely) if they go straight back down but then when promotion again do you deny them promotion because you know they are not up to the playing standard?

It would make common sense to insist on the presence of an academy for entry to the Premiership.

The academies are defined by the PRL/RFU 8 year agreement aren't they? That comes from the stuff around Wasps having to keep the same academy structure. So I'm not sure what Welsh can do about it.

As for teams losing their identity with moves away, etc...well that's only if they chase the professional dream. Some teams just do not have the infrastructure to support professional rugby, certainly at the highest level (Pro12, Jeff, T14 level). Instead of building this structure they get the team first, thinking the rest will just follow. I don't think it's a coincidence that the only team in recent times that was a true promotion (not just after being relegated) and has stayed up sorted out the off-field stuff first.

And maybe there simply isn't the support around the country to support pro teams? Maybe we are limited to SW and East Midlands, maybe one in London.

I think this is a good example of how Rugby has changed since professionalism. Teams need to earn promotion on the pitch, but also need to have a Premiership level organisational and business set-up. Fail on either point and teams will inevitably not be successful.

There is nothing wrong with this. Pro Rugby is top level sport. To survive in top level sport, a club needs a fully top level professional club organisation. Not every club which earns promotion can or will make the transition. Shame, but it is clearly not the same level playing field it used to be.

maestegmafia wrote:What is interesting is that nearly everyone posting on this thread agrees with JT's comments in the premiership you must have a billionaire backer or have assets worth a fair few quid.

No, nearly everyone posting agrees you need a solid organisation that allows you to build a team for the Premiership instead of buying one at the last moment.

Lowlandbrit wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:What is interesting is that nearly everyone posting on this thread agrees with JT's comments in the premiership you must have a billionaire backer or have assets worth a fair few quid.

No, nearly everyone posting agrees you need a solid organisation that allows you to build a team for the Premiership instead of buying one at the last moment.

What he say. Money is great but its what you do with it that counts

Lowlandbrit wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:What is interesting is that nearly everyone posting on this thread agrees with JT's comments in the premiership you must have a billionaire backer or have assets worth a fair few quid.

No, nearly everyone posting agrees you need a solid organisation that allows you to build a team for the Premiership instead of buying one at the last moment.

Organisation and infrastructure are far from free, they are millions of pounds of investment something they can only achieve through either a generous backer or having assets they can use/develop or sell.

It seems that it is only these key elements that let you compete at the top table.

bedfordwelsh wrote:I know in the big picture of things its about the 1st team but LWs minis, juniors and youth section is thriving so the whole LW set up and establishment isn't bad its just their 1st team are out of their depth BUT what do you do about it?

They rightly won promotion so what (more than likely) if they go straight back down but then when promotion again do you deny them promotion because you know they are not up to the playing standard?

Problem is BW is the disconnect between the amateur club and the professional set up - there's not the direct flow of players from the amateur side to the professionals that there would have been in the past - for example Saracens amateurs have a huge set up at Bramley Road but very few if any of their players have made it across the the pro side - the pro clubs use the academy system (and to a point the private schools that offer rugby scholarships) much more than their local amateur teams - basically if a player hasn't been picked up by 15/16 at the latest there's very little chance of them getting a shot at the pro game unless they can impress a Championship side.

maestegmafia wrote:

Lowlandbrit wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:What is interesting is that nearly everyone posting on this thread agrees with JT's comments in the premiership you must have a billionaire backer or have assets worth a fair few quid.

No, nearly everyone posting agrees you need a solid organisation that allows you to build a team for the Premiership instead of buying one at the last moment.

Organisation and infrastructure are far from free, they are millions of pounds of investment something they can only achieve through either a generous backer or having assets they can use/develop or sell.

It seems that it is only these key elements that let you compete at the top table.

Yes. What is so bad about that?

So the start up costs can be expensive, but once you have the infrastructure in place its not impossible to live within (or at least near to) your means.

lostinwales wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Lowlandbrit wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:What is interesting is that nearly everyone posting on this thread agrees with JT's comments in the premiership you must have a billionaire backer or have assets worth a fair few quid.

No, nearly everyone posting agrees you need a solid organisation that allows you to build a team for the Premiership instead of buying one at the last moment.

Organisation and infrastructure are far from free, they are millions of pounds of investment something they can only achieve through either a generous backer or having assets they can use/develop or sell.

It seems that it is only these key elements that let you compete at the top table.

Yes. What is so bad about that?

So the start up costs can be expensive, but once you have the infrastructure in place its not impossible to live within (or at least near to) your means.

What is the funding difference between a mid table championship side and a mid table premiership team?

Ten to twenty million pounds in assets and running costs.....?

One of the biggest desparities is in some clubs owning their own property, (pitch and training ground) while others are renting.


I can't see any way that London Welsh could return to the top of English rugby without an influx of cash, I have no clue where they could get that from other than an outside party, they do not have assets to sell or the opportunity to get tens of thousands of people to by season tickets and hundreds of thousands to buy merchandise.

Well we have a wealthy backer behind us....but we're not going out and buying the worlds best...

There is a plan to do it the proper way...improve the players that brought us up...whilst bringing the kids through from the academy.

Its not a quick process but in the medium to long term should see us as a strong premiership team.

I also echo the thoughts above that not having an academy is criminal. Its also a boost for fans to see young local lads coming through who have the ability to play at this level. They have more passion for the club than signing foreign hasbeen journeymen.

maestegmafia wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Lowlandbrit wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:What is interesting is that nearly everyone posting on this thread agrees with JT's comments in the premiership you must have a billionaire backer or have assets worth a fair few quid.

No, nearly everyone posting agrees you need a solid organisation that allows you to build a team for the Premiership instead of buying one at the last moment.

Organisation and infrastructure are far from free, they are millions of pounds of investment something they can only achieve through either a generous backer or having assets they can use/develop or sell.

It seems that it is only these key elements that let you compete at the top table.

Yes. What is so bad about that?

So the start up costs can be expensive, but once you have the infrastructure in place its not impossible to live within (or at least near to) your means.

What is the funding difference between a mid table championship side and a mid table premiership team?

Ten to twenty million pounds in assets and running costs.....?

One of the biggest desparities is in some clubs owning their own property, (pitch and training ground) while others are renting.


I can't see any way that London Welsh could return to the top of English rugby without an influx of cash, I have no clue where they could get that from other than an outside party, they do not have assets to sell or the opportunity to get tens of thousands of people to by season tickets and hundreds of thousands to buy merchandise.

Yes again. Its not the best situation but then you do need the right kit to play with the big boys. If you cant do that then you had best stay at a sustainable level.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well we have a wealthy backer behind us....but we're not going out and buying the worlds best...

There is a plan to do it the proper way...improve the players that brought us up...whilst bringing the kids through from the academy.

Its not a quick process but in the medium to long term should see us as a strong premiership team.

I also echo the thoughts above that not having an academy is criminal. Its also a boost for fans to see young local lads coming through who have the ability to play at this level. They have more passion for the club than signing foreign hasbeen journeymen.

London welsh can't afford an academy because they don't have a wealthy backer. They don't have a great coach or really good players for the same reason.

Unless a multimillionaire welsh rugby fan we don't know about comes along or Sir Tom Jones is feeling generous, London welsh will be the club that wins promotion then gets relegated every other season.

The thing is, as newcastle fans can probably well attest, if that backer loses interest, the stars drift away and your ambitions fall..

It's surely within living memory when Sir John Halls Falcons won the premiership...?

lostinwales wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Lowlandbrit wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:What is interesting is that nearly everyone posting on this thread agrees with JT's comments in the premiership you must have a billionaire backer or have assets worth a fair few quid.

No, nearly everyone posting agrees you need a solid organisation that allows you to build a team for the Premiership instead of buying one at the last moment.

Organisation and infrastructure are far from free, they are millions of pounds of investment something they can only achieve through either a generous backer or having assets they can use/develop or sell.

It seems that it is only these key elements that let you compete at the top table.

Yes. What is so bad about that?

So the start up costs can be expensive, but once you have the infrastructure in place its not impossible to live within (or at least near to) your means.

What is the funding difference between a mid table championship side and a mid table premiership team?

Ten to twenty million pounds in assets and running costs.....?

One of the biggest desparities is in some clubs owning their own property, (pitch and training ground) while others are renting.


I can't see any way that London Welsh could return to the top of English rugby without an influx of cash, I have no clue where they could get that from other than an outside party, they do not have assets to sell or the opportunity to get tens of thousands of people to by season tickets and hundreds of thousands to buy merchandise.

Yes again. Its not the best situation but then you do need the right kit to play with the big boys. If you cant do that then you had best stay at a sustainable level.

This is a sustainable level.. London Welsh earns more money of the last foray in the premiership than ever before.

What let them down was not their business model, their players or their DOR, but an employee recommendedby other premiership clubs lying about a players eligibility.

London Welsh were in a state last time before they hired their admin manager.

The main reason was because they left it to the very last minute to decide they wanted promotion - in fact they left it till after the last minute as they missed the deadline for putting in their audit applications.

That they would have almost stayed up if given the deducted points back, was a credit to the coaches and players at the time.

This time they have chosen to splash the cash - and all they are doing is flashing the gash.

LondonTiger wrote:London Welsh were in a state last time before they hired their admin manager.

The main reason was because they left it to the very last minute to decide they wanted promotion - in fact they left it till after the last minute as they missed the deadline for putting in their audit applications.

That they would have almost stayed up if given the deducted points back, was a credit to the coaches and players at the time.

This time they have chosen to splash the cash - and all they are doing is flashing the gash.

Just show what a ridiculous system the faux Promotion/Relagation (Ringfenced) really is.

Why not just go for real ring fencing, dump London Welsh and hire Bristol (plus their billionaire Landsdown)....????

LondonTiger wrote:London Welsh were in a state last time before they hired their admin manager.

The main reason was because they left it to the very last minute to decide they wanted promotion - in fact they left it till after the last minute as they missed the deadline for putting in their audit applications.

That they would have almost stayed up if given the deducted points back, was a credit to the coaches and players at the time.

This time they have chosen to splash the cash - and all they are doing is flashing the gash.

Agree. They won 4 only Premiership matches before their violation of league rules was reported and punished. Relegation was not assured at that point, but certainly was around a 50/50 proposition.

Also agree the time to start planning for promotion is not right at the last minute. It should start years before. This way clubs would have a solid business plan moving forwards.

How the feck is it ring fenced? In a PROFESSIONAL sport you have to be able to pay the wages. Teams like Bedford, Cornish Pirates and Nottingham would like to be premiership teams, but know they have to build towards that. The London Welsh board were like a kid in a candy shop, wanted all the sweets but want mummy and daddy to pay for it.

I agree, and did so earlier, that the disparity in central payments is not right. however that is a smokescreen for London Welsh being completely unprepared for life in the top flight of Pro rugby.

Now personally I believe that promotion criteria should be stricter - and much like they do in RL superLeague clubs should have a viable business plan and probably at least jointly own their ground to get promotion.

The actual important thing though is that we need to have a proper, well run Second tier that is funded to a decent level. I woudl like the PRL to take on the ownership of the championship and sue some of the extra moneys coming into the game to give the second tier teams a chance to develop.

Glad to see you back MM, sad to see you are still pre-occupied with slating English rugby.

I think its a shame that there doesn't seem to be any real desire to grow the sport. Rugby union at the club level is not, if we're honest, a genuinely national endeavour. There are large parts of the country, in the north and south-east in particular, who show up to support the national team, but have no interaction with club rugby at all because they don't have the opportunity.

I would be great if someone in the RFU or PRL took measures to help clubs in those areas grow, and become self-sustaining. Development loans, or help with stadium building etc. Give Wasps some help to stay in the South-East, or help LW grow and develop in Oxford, for example. It would cost in the short term, but would build a bigger, better audience for your product in the long term, which would benefit everyone involved in the sport.

mawhis wrote:I think its a shame that there doesn't seem to be any real desire to grow the sport. Rugby union at the club level is not, if we're honest, a genuinely national endeavour. There are large parts of the country, in the north and south-east in particular, who show up to support the national team, but have no interaction with club rugby at all because they don't have the opportunity.

I would be great if someone in the RFU or PRL took measures to help clubs in those areas grow, and become self-sustaining. Development loans, or help with stadium building etc. Give Wasps some help to stay in the South-East, or help LW grow and develop in Oxford, for example. It would cost in the short term, but would build a bigger, better audience for your product in the long term, which would benefit everyone involved in the sport.

Thats creeping closer to a franchise model but yes it would be good to see things expand further. There are places which are on the up. Jersey has come from nowhere.

LondonTiger wrote:How the feck is it ring fenced? In a PROFESSIONAL sport you have to be able to pay the wages. Teams like Bedford, Cornish Pirates and Nottingham would like to be premiership teams, but know they have to build towards that. The London Welsh board were like a kid in a candy shop, wanted all the sweets but want mummy and daddy to pay for it.

I agree, and did so earlier, that the disparity in central payments is not right. however that is a smokescreen for London Welsh being completely unprepared for life in the top flight of Pro rugby.

Now personally I believe that promotion criteria should be stricter - and much like they do in RL superLeague clubs should have a viable business plan and probably at least jointly own their ground to get promotion.

The actual important thing though is that we need to have a proper, well run Second tier that is funded to a decent level. I woudl like the PRL to take on the ownership of the championship and sue some of the extra moneys coming into the game to give the second tier teams a chance to develop.

Glad to see you back MM, sad to see you are still pre-occupied with slating English rugby.

I'll ignore you pathetic rebuke and say that the article in the OP stresses how London Welsh would like to be following the right model but are struggling to do it while qualifying for promotion.

The difficulties exposed on them prove that there is an equality in the two leagues. That disparity in financial capability to compete once qualified is a system that has to be addressed if the PRL/RFU want promotion and relegation to work.

The teams you mention are doing all the right things, London welsh can't afford to do more but they are playing rugby good enough to earn promotion and as far as ican see their model will be to yoyo between the two leagues until they have the funds to compete.

The fact of the matter is that nations struggle to afford to have so many teams compete at the top level in any country. South Africa France and England have the wealthiest leagues and the most competitive teams. Wales NZ Australia Italy and Scotland can't afford more than the professional teams they have because the sport does not generate enough money in those countries to do so.

I think we are starting to see teams that do have academies, infrastructure and history at the top of the premiership starting to struggle against the teams that have a backer with large pockets, where are tigers and Quins this season?  Certainly not looking as good as the Saracens and Baths of the AP.

What do the English fans want?

Do you like the state of play? Or do you want to have 20 teams between two leagues that are financed and organised well enough to be part of the top tier...!

To grow the game surely increasing the competitiveness and quantity of teams is best for the game in England. If that is to be so then teams at the bottom of the AP and in the championship need more assistance, or need some rules to be flouted to let them develop...?

lostinwales wrote:

mawhis wrote:I think its a shame that there doesn't seem to be any real desire to grow the sport. Rugby union at the club level is not, if we're honest, a genuinely national endeavour. There are large parts of the country, in the north and south-east in particular, who show up to support the national team, but have no interaction with club rugby at all because they don't have the opportunity.

I would be great if someone in the RFU or PRL took measures to help clubs in those areas grow, and become self-sustaining. Development loans, or help with stadium building etc. Give Wasps some help to stay in the South-East, or help LW grow and develop in Oxford, for example. It would cost in the short term, but would build a bigger, better audience for your product in the long term, which would benefit everyone involved in the sport.

Thats creeping closer to a franchise model but yes it would be good to see things expand further. There are places which are on the up. Jersey has come from nowhere.

The notion of franchises doesn't bother me as much as it seems to other people - The sport is now a business, why pretend that it isn't?

Every business, sports or otherwise, faces the pressure to continually expand into new areas/markets, due to the pressures of competiton from other businesses. Evolve or die. That's why Manchester United play preseason games in Thailand, and the NFL plays regular season games at Wembley. If premiership rugby doesn't try to do that same, it may well find that its fans are leaving to go watch something else.

mawhis,

I agree more needs to be done, but i disagree with your method - especially as rugby authorities have no control over planning decisions.

So, and sorry for repeating, my thoughts:

1) PRL, reporting into the PGB, to have control of pro rugby covering two divisions of 12 teams.
2) Promotion to the top flight to be dependent on passing a successful business plan audit. Ground H&S requirements kept as they are, but capacity requirements dropped - as instead the club needs to show they have a sustainable business. This probably means they will have to at least part own their own ground, but not necessarily. Clubs seeking promotion to second tier also having to meet (lower) requirements.
3) Central funding re TV and Marketing rights to be spread equally among Top flight teams, and (to a lower amount) among the second flight teams. Further sums to be give pro-rata to number of EQP players in matchday squads, rather than the current thresh-hold system. Thus Quins would get more than Tigers. EPS money to more accurately reflect contribution to England, Saxons and U20s. This will of course mean no more parachute payments,


The whole aim is to have a sustainable second tier, where teams can organically develop and not need speculative investment whether from central bodies or sugar daddies. Short term it would mean reduced money to current PRL teams, but should be in the long term benefit of all.

lostinwales wrote:

mawhis wrote:I think its a shame that there doesn't seem to be any real desire to grow the sport. Rugby union at the club level is not, if we're honest, a genuinely national endeavour. There are large parts of the country, in the north and south-east in particular, who show up to support the national team, but have no interaction with club rugby at all because they don't have the opportunity.

I would be great if someone in the RFU or PRL took measures to help clubs in those areas grow, and become self-sustaining. Development loans, or help with stadium building etc. Give Wasps some help to stay in the South-East, or help LW grow and develop in Oxford, for example. It would cost in the short term, but would build a bigger, better audience for your product in the long term, which would benefit everyone involved in the sport.

Thats creeping closer to a franchise model but yes it would be good to see things expand further. There are places which are on the up. Jersey has come from nowhere.

Well things are the way they are because the top clubs are mostly those who happened to be at the top of the pile when the game turned pro, barring a few exceptions. Those that were basically in the right place at the right time have had plenty of funding plus the top teams also get to run regional academies, thereby ensuring that they get first dibs on local talent, entrenching the system further. The fact that Bristol and Worcester have them and Welsh don't shows you who the powers that be think will be at the top table long term.

The issue with loans I would guess would be other clubs might think it was unfair and veto it. Why should Wasps get stadium help, meaning they can spend more on players if say Irish are still paying rent on the MadStad for example?

There are large parts of the country, in the north and south-east in particular, who show up to support the national team, but have no interaction with club rugby at all because they don't have the opportunity.

I’m not sure where you are getting this point of view from.

I can’t answer for the SE as I don’t spend any time there, but in the North club rugby is as healthy as it’s ever been.

At my location I can go to see Premiership rugby (Falcons), National League 1 (Tynedale or Blaydon)and there’s a shed load of local sides that are purely amateur in the true meaning of the word, all within a 30 minutes’ drive, so I’m not really sure about the accuracy of your statement.

It’s a similar position in North Yorkshire and even Cumbria, which has to compete with League, has a healthy club scene.

A lot of people assume that all of the Championship Clubs want to be in the Premiership. From the Falcons time in the Championship a few seasons ago I know that there's a fair few of the current Championship clubs not that keen on buying into what being a member of the Premiership entails - well at least the fans aren't. Look at recent developments in the Championship, Nottingham are downsizing to a ‘local’ rugby facility and I know Leeds are watching developments closely.

Yes – no doubt some of them would like to give it a go, there’s a few of them have been there in recent times, Leeds, Worcester, Bristol and a while back Rotherham. The first three DO have the infrastructure to succeed, however whether they can recruit well enough to bolster their current squad to survive in the Premiership is a moot point. And it’s not just about splashing the cash – there’s a limited number of players to go around. The only way ahead for these clubs is to build through their academy and then bring in two or three quality pivotal players to add an edge and then just hope they can survive.

Add this to the Dual Registered conundrum (LW had dual registered players helping them in the playoffs) and a newly promoted side that hasn't done the groundwork to build a viable squad and achieved promotion on the cheap are staring down the barrel of a shotgun.

Personally I don't think that England can support two leagues of fully professional sides there’s not enough quality players and the fan base is certainly not there, so how could it be sustained? Bring in a load of journeymen mercenaries and handouts from the RFU? No thanks.

With so many new players and no Welsh core questions have been asked about commitment to the cause

I think this just about some up the whole article – they need to import some quality Welsh players in – it’s obvious that the Welsh Regions have a surfeit of world class players (so many in fact that they are dumping some of them into the French League) and ANY side with Welsh players in it would light up the Premiership.

maestegmafia wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well we have a wealthy backer behind us....but we're not going out and buying the worlds best...

There is a plan to do it the proper way...improve the players that brought us up...whilst bringing the kids through from the academy.

Its not a quick process but in the medium to long term should see us as a strong premiership team.

I also echo the thoughts above that not having an academy is criminal. Its also a boost for fans to see young local lads coming through who have the ability to play at this level. They have more passion for the club than signing foreign hasbeen journeymen.

London welsh can't afford an academy because they don't have a wealthy backer. They don't have a great coach or really good players for the same reason.

Unless a multimillionaire welsh rugby fan we don't know about comes along or Sir Tom Jones is feeling generous, London welsh will be the club that wins promotion then gets relegated every other season.

The thing is, as newcastle fans can probably well attest, if that backer loses interest, the stars drift away and your ambitions fall..

It's surely within living memory when Sir John Halls Falcons won the premiership...?

You don't need a wealthy backer to have an academy, there are a good number of Championship sides with academies and not rich owners.  The Championship proves there is more than one way to fund a viable and sustainable club.  It's about priorities with the money you do have and a slow build through the correct processes. What London Welsh need is some proper direction from their board (or a better new one) and a long-term, intelligent, building road map.

johnpartle wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well we have a wealthy backer behind us....but we're not going out and buying the worlds best...

There is a plan to do it the proper way...improve the players that brought us up...whilst bringing the kids through from the academy.

Its not a quick process but in the medium to long term should see us as a strong premiership team.

I also echo the thoughts above that not having an academy is criminal. Its also a boost for fans to see young local lads coming through who have the ability to play at this level. They have more passion for the club than signing foreign hasbeen journeymen.

London welsh can't afford an academy because they don't have a wealthy backer. They don't have a great coach or really good players for the same reason.

Unless a multimillionaire welsh rugby fan we don't know about comes along or Sir Tom Jones is feeling generous, London welsh will be the club that wins promotion then gets relegated every other season.

The thing is, as newcastle fans can probably well attest, if that backer loses interest, the stars drift away and your ambitions fall..

It's surely within living memory when Sir John Halls Falcons won the premiership...?

You don't need a wealthy backer to have an academy, there are a good number of Championship sides with academies and not rich owners.  The Championship proves there is more than one way to fund a viable and sustainable club.  It's about priorities with the money you do have and a slow build through the correct processes.  What London Welsh need is some proper direction from their board (or a better new one) and a long-term, intelligent, building road map.

The board certainly seem to be managing LW the Welsh way. Do it badly then blame everyone else for the failings.