Premiership clubs chasing Armitage

First topic message reminder :

Being reported on Planet rugby.

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16024_9515605,00.html

Sarries, Coventry, Quins and Bath are in the running to sign him.

So it looks like he doesn't want to play for France after all.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:The hype surrounding him annoys me tbh TH, at least we'd get to see him against his peers playing at a pretty level field.

I personally think he's hugely overhyped, he a good 7 and would be there or there abouts in an England squad, but he's not the saviour.

I completely agree. He plays in a truly world class pack and it would be very difficult not to shine amongst them. If this move comes to fruition it will certainly strengthen the pool available, but I'd have concerns about him in the starting line up as to how he would change the dynamic of the backrow. If he were to replace Robshaw, it would be very strange to drop your Captain in the year running up to the world cup and whilst some players may be able to step up, it would leave England short of leadership. If he were to replace Wood then it would leave England very short on viable lineout options as Robshaw, Armitage and Vunipola offer very little there, especially in comparison to the excellent work Wood does. Morgan is playing his best rugby for a season or two, however, Armitage probably best fulfils the impact sub as he could cover all 3 backrow places.

Nevertheless, I do still have a number of doubts about him and I am far from confident that there would be any calls for Armitage to be in the England set up had he been playing in the Glaws pack last season

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm pretty sceptical of his form tbh Oz. He plays a roaming style for Toulon and he's good at it.

No England side could afford to give him this type of role as it relies on front 5 dominance, we rarely achieve such a thing.

My opinion is he's a good player made to look better in a fantastic team. We'd only see if he's actually improved by going to a side like Quins or Wasps.

I don't buy this argument. What you're suggesting is that he only looks good because of other players. You could argue that for any player who is playing in a team at the top of their game. I would argue that if he wasn't part of what makes them a fantastic team, he would look out of place alongside those who are top class, and he clearly doesn't.

I would just add, I'm not championing his cause at all, as he wouldn't be my starting 7 for England right now, I just don't see how if you watch him play, you can question the quality of his performances over the past 2 years.

I know the calls are always for Armitage, and personally think he'd be v good impact, and recently for Fraser (rightly so, fingers crossed he gets a good run of games) but I've actually been really impressed with Kvesic so far. I don't think we're that desperate even for depth.

I'm not suggesting they make him look good. I'm saying he's playing in a pack that allows him the freedom to play a type of game I don't think he could for England. This in turn allows him to shine as he does the flashy flanker stuff that gets noticed.

Armitage didn't get the opportunity to play this roaming type of game at Irish and he didn't look a top class imo. Which other team on the planet has the talent that Toulon does at its disposal?

I just think he's overhyped & overrated.

I saw a stat last season that Armitage gets to about 30% of breakdowns. The tireless work done by Lobbe and Smith allowed him the freedom to do his stuff.

I suspect that Toulon could be interested in letting him go on loan because:

a) he may not be first choice now 4Ns is over. We shall see who the back row is when they play Scarlets, but it could quite easily consist 3 of Masoe, smith, Lobbe and gorgodze
b) Someone else would therefore be paying his wages and maybe some compensation.

That's the point I was tryng to get across LT, he doesn't get too involved in the graft. Can many sides afford that type of luxury in their side?

It sounds as if the move could be off due to financial issues, which I would guess would be some sort of fee that Toulon would be demanding for the loan.

On the subject of French flankers, Planet rugby says that Dusautoir and Albacete may be leaving Toulouse at the end of the season for England, with a few clubs named as possibles.

Does anyone want Armitage for their club or for England?

Personally I am not impressed with his attitude - if he wanted to play for England he should be playing for an English club now - he shouldn't have signed an extended contract at Toulon.

It's only now that the IRB seemed to have shut his door on a loophole to play for France that he's interested in England again.

I agree that 6 Wood 7 Robshaw 8 Vunipola is about as nailed on a back row as England has had for quite a while. Would I replace any of those three with Armitage? No, probably not.

And I think there's something to those comments that he would need to work harder in a Jeff side than he currently does at Toulon.

The whole thing smacks of a gentleman's agreement that SA has with the Bjellybaby whereby he can get out prior to the RWC if his chances of playing there depend on it. Let's face it, Toulon is not lacking for strength in depth anywhere.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm not suggesting they make him look good. I'm saying he's playing in a pack that allows him the freedom to play a type of game I don't think he could for England. This in turn allows him to shine as he does the flashy flanker stuff that gets noticed.

Armitage didn't get the opportunity to play this roaming type of game at Irish and he didn't look a top class imo. Which other team on the planet has the talent that Toulon does at its disposal?

I just think he's overhyped & overrated.

That's not quite true, he was out standing as a roaming loose forward for Irish for at least 1 season, I remember him scoring quite a few tries for them and even then running like a centre while still pilfering the ball and putting himself about.

I don't know how he'd go if he returned to England but I have a feeling he'd be class no matter what.

yappysnap wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm not suggesting they make him look good. I'm saying he's playing in a pack that allows him the freedom to play a type of game I don't think he could for England. This in turn allows him to shine as he does the flashy flanker stuff that gets noticed.

Armitage didn't get the opportunity to play this roaming type of game at Irish and he didn't look a top class imo. Which other team on the planet has the talent that Toulon does at its disposal?

I just think he's overhyped & overrated.

That's not quite true, he was out standing as a roaming loose forward for Irish for at least 1 season, I remember him scoring quite a few tries for them and even then running like a centre while still pilfering the ball and putting himself about.

I don't know how he'd go if he returned to England but I have a feeling he'd be class no matter what.

I'm glad you've said this yappy as it is entirely correct. If I'd said it I am sure some may have suggested that I was wearing green tinted specs.

beshocked wrote:Does anyone want Armitage for their club or for England?

Personally I am not impressed with his attitude - if he wanted to play for England he should be playing for an English club now - he shouldn't have signed an extended contract at Toulon.

It's only now that the IRB seemed to have shut his door on a loophole to play for France that he's interested in England again.

A bit unfair IMHO,

When Steffon signed for Toulon, he had fallen out with Toby Booth at London Irish, and had been told by Martin Johnson that he wasn't going to be selected for England because they were going to go with players with more experience, thereby closing the door on his international career, as he can't get international experience without being selected, and visa versa. Also, there was no rule against overseas players back then.

At the time that he resigned, he had become a club hero at Toulon, and Stuart Lancaster was telling the newspapers that he wasn't fit enough or good enough to play for England, and that Robshaw was amazing at 7 anyway. I don't think its fair to criticise him for not turning aside his loyalty to Toulon, who took him in, nurtured him, and turned him into a Heineken cup winner and ERC Player of the Year, on the offchance that he might play for England again.

Ozzy3213 wrote:

yappysnap wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm not suggesting they make him look good. I'm saying he's playing in a pack that allows him the freedom to play a type of game I don't think he could for England. This in turn allows him to shine as he does the flashy flanker stuff that gets noticed.

Armitage didn't get the opportunity to play this roaming type of game at Irish and he didn't look a top class imo. Which other team on the planet has the talent that Toulon does at its disposal?

I just think he's overhyped & overrated.

That's not quite true, he was out standing as a roaming loose forward for Irish for at least 1 season, I remember him scoring quite a few tries for them and even then running like a centre while still pilfering the ball and putting himself about.

I don't know how he'd go if he returned to England but I have a feeling he'd be class no matter what.

I'm glad you've said this yappy as it is entirely correct.   If I'd said it I am sure some may have suggested that I was wearing green tinted specs.

Tries and running like a centre are not qualities that are at the top of the list for a flanker imo. He's a luxury player, if you can get away with that then great but I don't think England or many sides in the AP can.

I would be happy to see Steffon come to Tigers. Cannot se eit happening, but would be happy to see him come. Would take Delon too.

I would not be happy to see him parachuted into the England set-up unless:

a) He had a permanent contract with an AP club
b) He was outperforming other premierhsip back rowers.


I would love to know the source of "told by Martin Johnson that he wasn't going to be selected for England because they were going to go with players with more experience". Far more likely that he was told he would be behind Rees, Moody, Haskell, Fourie, Croft, Wood etc etc

And rightly so LT as they were out performing him

Ha. Drivel pooly. you've probably never watched a french game.

LondonTiger wrote:I would be happy to see Steffon come to Tigers. Cannot se eit happening, but would be happy to see him come. Would take Delon too.

I would not be happy to see him parachuted into the England set-up unless:

a) He had a permanent contract with an AP club
b) He was outperforming other premierhsip back rowers.


I would love to know the source of "told by Martin Johnson that he wasn't going to be selected for England because they were going to go with players with more experience". Far more likely that he was told he would be behind Rees, Moody, Haskell, Fourie, Croft, Wood etc etc

Here you go:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/9623495/Toulons-Steffon-Armitage-well-aware-of-the-fact-that-he-might-be-frozen-out-of-Stuart-Lancasters-England-plans.html

“Johnno explained it by saying that they wanted to go for more experience at the time,” Armitage said. “But I couldn’t get more experience by not playing. I didn’t really know how to answer that.”

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:

yappysnap wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm not suggesting they make him look good. I'm saying he's playing in a pack that allows him the freedom to play a type of game I don't think he could for England. This in turn allows him to shine as he does the flashy flanker stuff that gets noticed.

Armitage didn't get the opportunity to play this roaming type of game at Irish and he didn't look a top class imo. Which other team on the planet has the talent that Toulon does at its disposal?

I just think he's overhyped & overrated.

That's not quite true, he was out standing as a roaming loose forward for Irish for at least 1 season, I remember him scoring quite a few tries for them and even then running like a centre while still pilfering the ball and putting himself about.

I don't know how he'd go if he returned to England but I have a feeling he'd be class no matter what.

I'm glad you've said this yappy as it is entirely correct.   If I'd said it I am sure some may have suggested that I was wearing green tinted specs.

Tries and running like a centre are not qualities that are at the top of the list for a flanker imo. He's a luxury player, if you can get away with that then great but I don't think England or many sides in the AP can.

It's not going to happen now anyway by the sound of things (this week anyway), but are turnovers a quality you'd like to see in a flanker as he won more (19) than any other player in the HC last season. Whilst also posting a 96% tackle rate. If he did move in the next few weeks I wouldn't be advocating him returning straight into the England 7 shirt, as Robshaw is excellent for England. But can't agree that he wouldn't be an attractive squad option for England.

mawhis wrote:When Steffon signed for Toulon, he..had been told by Martin Johnson that he wasn't going to be selected for England because they were going to go with players with more experience, thereby closing the door on his international career...

At the time that he re-signed...Stuart Lancaster was telling the newspapers that he wasn't fit enough or good enough to play for England...

Neither of those statements is true.

Armitage toured with England in 2010 and then found himself behind in the pecking order when Johnson was finalizing his World Cup squad. Why on earth would he regard that as closing the door on his international career? Players like Mathew Tait and Charlie Hodgson also toured and then were dropped. They never regarded the door as closed.

seanmichaels wrote:Ha. Drivel pooly. you've probably never watched a french game.

I was talking about prior to his move.

I watch plenty of French games thanks, not that you'd need to as Toulon also appear in the HC/EC. Can we keep the insults out, this is a discussion about a player and my viewing habits have nothing to do with the topic.

Ah so Steffon's take on things, who assumes he means more international experience. Now seeing as Johnson wanted to pick Rees and Fourie who has bugger all int experience that does suggest a misunderstanding. Add in the rather ropey displays we saw from Steffon in his England appearances at the time, well not s surprise Johnsons woudl opt for others.

Armitage is a much better player now - but even so he does have others doing the graft for him. In that way it is like Schalk Brits - he can do what he has done for Sarries because other people cover for him in the boring stuff.

Could Steffon bring his fantastic club form to the international stage in a way Brits could not. Well we will probably never find out, so all we can do is keep arguing about something for which we have no evidence

mawhis wrote:

beshocked wrote:Does anyone want Armitage for their club or for England?

Personally I am not impressed with his attitude - if he wanted to play for England he should be playing for an English club now - he shouldn't have signed an extended contract at Toulon.

It's only now that the IRB seemed to have shut his door on a loophole to play for France that he's interested in England again.

A bit unfair IMHO,

When Steffon signed for Toulon, he had fallen out with Toby Booth at London Irish, and had been told by Martin Johnson that he wasn't going to be selected for England because they were going to go with players with more experience, thereby closing the door on his international career, as he can't get international experience without being selected, and visa versa. Also, there was no rule against overseas players back then.

At the time that he resigned, he had become a club hero at Toulon, and Stuart Lancaster was telling the newspapers that he wasn't fit enough or good enough to play for England, and that Robshaw was amazing at 7 anyway. I don't think its fair to criticise him for not turning aside his loyalty to Toulon, who took him in, nurtured him, and turned him into a Heineken cup winner and ERC Player of the Year, on the offchance that he might play for England again.

I don't think I am being unfair at all. S.Armitage has been chasing the big money in Toulon.

Not against S.Armitage initially moving to Toulon. He felt like England were ignoring him - fair enough. He might re-sign for Toulon as a way to repay the faith but it means he is putting a club before country. It's his choice. England shouldn't suddenly be begging for S.Armitage to come back.


I don't think English clubs should look to bring in a player whose loyalty is primarily to Toulon not to England - certainly don't think an English club should pay Toulon either.

If S.Armitage wants to play for England then he needs to show the hunger for it. Trying to waltz into England contention just for the RWC then go back for the big money in Toulon isn't what I want from an England player personally.

S.Armitage wants everything his own way, I am sorry but no he shouldn't.

Londontiger as for Brits - I just don't think he really fits SA's ethos of play. He's never really been given a proper run out for SA has he? Brits doesn't just do the flash stuff - his lineout throwing is generally very good. His workrate is good. People just see his eyecatching runs but there is more to him than that.

Beshocked - he is rarely involved at the breakdown, especially as he has often retreated to be the kick receiver, or make many tackles But he does not need to as others do that for him. and that is how teams work.

While he was away this season Saracens played things a little differently, with Jamie George being a very different style of hooker. In the long run he may be a better fit?

I don't think Steffon Armitage has made his thoughts know. I don't remember reading any quotes from him saying he wants to be in the Olympic team to switch countries. I don't remember reading anything about him wanting a short term loan as he's so awesome he'd jump straight into the national team. This is all speculation from the media and we should all be savvy enough to know that they are full of Poopie most of the time.

He's no different to anyone else. If he plays in an English team he's in consideration. No more, no less.

Tom Rees...

What I'd give to have him with 50+ England caps in our current squad. Ah well let's not turn this into a what could have been thread.

On the Armitage issue I agree with LT that I'd love to see him back in the Jeff, and would happily have him at Tigers! However I wouldn't want him parachuted straight into the EPS until we've had a proper look at how he performs away from that Toulon pack. If he outperformed other Prem flankers then get him in.

Is money the main reason behind London Irish not being touted as a possible club for him to return to? Just seems it would make sense with LI not having the deepest back row options currently, though the incumbents have been playing well.

6.Guest
7.Armitage
8.Narraway

The above would be a very interesting back row to watch in action.

Londontiger Brits does actually make quite a few tackles I believe.

With Brits away, Saracens haven't exactly done too well - performance wise have they? They've pretty much only put in one good performance against a team who psychologically they had rattled before the game began.

I know they've only lost one but two were pretty lucky wins - let's be honest - could easily be on 3 losses.

Brits is an inspirational player for Saracens - he's a popular player throughout the AP - something you can't say of a certain fly half or winger! Brits I am sure is one of the most respected players in the Saracens squad too.

I like George but he's probably not as good as Brits at throwing and he's not just not got that X factor Brits has. He's more conventional but there are enough conventional players in Saracens squad.

Saracens lack that X factor and pace in the team. Brits gives you a hooker with the pace of a centre which makes them a bit less pedestrian and predictable. Being less predictable and pedestrian is what I feel Saracens badly need.

Personally I want to see a bit of youthful exuberance - freshen up the backline with Tompkins,Ransom and Spencer being given extended run outs to just add a bit more pace and unpredictably. Give Itoje an opportunity in the pack.


Teams are about balance of course. Some players are there for certain roles.

One cannot argue that what S.Armitage does works well for Toulon. Would he be able to fit into England's backrow as an effective component? Perhaps with the right balance in the pack.

Move to Bath now "Unlikely" according to the Beeb:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/29607431

Oh well

Shame. Would have been great to see how he performed at Bath ahead of RWC. He is the turnover maestro IMHO. Schooled a frequently isolated billy v in the HC final. That takes serious strength, stability and anticipation. England could definitely do with having that kind of option in the squad. I be he won more penalties that were converted to points than any other player in top14 last season.

quinsforever wrote:Shame. Would have been great to see how he performed at Bath ahead of RWC. He is the turnover maestro IMHO. Schooled a frequently isolated billy v in the HC final. That takes serious strength, stability and anticipation. England could definitely do with having that kind of option in the squad. I be he won more penalties that were converted to points than any other player in top14 last season.

I've seen this posted a few times and don't quite understand it.

Billy V is an 8, he's a had carrying/making yards type of player. I think Armitage may have had 8 on his back that day but he certainly doesn't play like and 8 and offers completely different things to Billy, they wouldn't be in direct competition for an England shirt.

If the critism of Billy is that he was getting tackled and Armitage was produciung turnovers from this, then this is the fault of the rest of the pack/team not clearing out more than it was of Vuinipola. It's not like Billy is an 10sec 100m runner who gets a way from the play.

Not a criticism of billy v. No-one currently in the England setup would be capable of that quality turnover. Doesn't matter what number armitage has on his back. Qn is whether a coach can use him in a way that is brutally effective.

I'm not having a pop Quins, I've seen a few people suggest Armitage "schooled" Billy, I just can't see how that was the case.

No worries. I went to the game so maybe my impressions are not as objective as when I watch on TV.

But armitage is a turnover machine of that there is little doubt.

Anyway, looks like no-one can afford toulons fee for the loan. Real shame as I think people would see how much he has improved and he would win a RWC spot on merit

king_carlos wrote:Tom Rees...

What I'd give to have him with 50+ England caps in our current squad. Ah well let's not turn this into a what could have been thread.

On the Armitage issue I agree with LT that I'd love to see him back in the Jeff, and would happily have him at Tigers! However I wouldn't want him parachuted straight into the EPS until we've had a proper look at how he performs away from that Toulon pack. If he outperformed other Prem flankers then get him in.

Is money the main reason behind London Irish not being touted as a possible club for him to return to? Just seems it would make sense with LI not having the deepest back row options currently, though the incumbents have been playing well.

6.Guest
7.Armitage
8.Narraway

The above would be a very interesting back row to watch in action.

It would be...

6. Cowan
7. Armitage
8. Treviranus

It won't happen though.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:Shame. Would have been great to see how he performed at Bath ahead of RWC. He is the turnover maestro IMHO. Schooled a frequently isolated billy v in the HC final. That takes serious strength, stability and anticipation. England could definitely do with having that kind of option in the squad. I be he won more penalties that were converted to points than any other player in top14 last season.

I've seen this posted a few times and don't quite understand it.

Billy V is an 8, he's a had carrying/making yards type of player. I think Armitage may have had 8 on his back that day but he certainly doesn't play like and 8 and offers completely different things to Billy, they wouldn't be in direct competition for an England shirt.

If the critism of Billy is that he was getting tackled and Armitage was produciung turnovers from this, then this is the fault of the rest of the pack/team not clearing out more than it was of Vuinipola. It's not like Billy is an 10sec 100m runner who gets a way from the play.

Well said. I thought Billy V tried his best that day. It was his own team that should have been giving him more support. Saracens were far too predictable - one of the main game strategies was ship the ball to Billy (Toulon easily countered this). Toulon gave S.Armitage the platform, also having their favourite ref - Alain Rolland didn't harm their chances either (not sure Toulon have ever lost an European match with him in charge). On the contrary they have won two HC finals with their favourite ref in charge - coincidence? Perhaps... Certainly Toulon know how to make the most out of Rolland's breakdown interpretations.

Toulon might be hurt more not having their favourite ref this season. Can they win without Alain Rolland?

They're a pretty good team to be fair.

Totally agree Sgt, Billy was pretty much on his own in that game. Not alot he could do.

As for the turnover machine...well he is given a great platform to play like that. Im not sure he would be given that kind of freedom with the England side.

Personally i think Will Fraser looks a serious 7 in the making. And in all honesty id rather keep Robshaw at 7 and give Fraser the squad / bench position as he is the long term future...not Armitage who is a 6 month loan project to make a world cup appearance becuase his chances with France have now been shut closed.

Lets not forget...Robshaw might not be an out and out traditional 7...but he's not asked to play that role for England. Im sure if he was...he would be very good at simply focusing on turnovers....

Exactly GF, I imagine a fair few of our 7's would flourish having the freedom Armitage does in that Toulon side. Players who are good on the deck like Kvesic, Saull, Fraser etc might look world class if given the licence to roam (maybe not Saull )

Julian Salvi, who lets face it was anonymous at Bath, has a simple role at Leicester. His job is to tackle and win turnovers. He is not asked to clear oput rucks and mauls so if he is not immediately at the breakdown he is allowed to stand off and wait for the next tackle or turnover opportunity.

As such he has been the standout openside in the AP for the last few years - topping turnover and tackle counts in that time. He has also been helped by having a pack that domestically has usually been pretty strong. He has in effect been given licence to shine by the efforts of his team mates.

Maybe Not Saull ha ha....but we've got Harry Bate on his way

I was thinking of Salvi LT. He's a step up on Armitage at the breakdown imo, he'd look like the worlds best 7 behind that Toulon pack. Yet he's never made it at Int level, ring a bell?

LondonTiger wrote:Julian Salvi, who lets face it was anonymous at Bath, has a simple role at Leicester. His job is to tackle and win turnovers. He is not asked to clear oput rucks and mauls so if he is not immediately at the breakdown he is allowed to stand off and wait for the next tackle or turnover opportunity.

As such he has been the standout openside in the AP for the last few years - topping turnover and tackle counts in that time. He has also been helped by having a pack that domestically has usually been pretty strong. He has in effect been given licence to shine by the efforts of his team mates.

That's just about getting the right balance. Picking a player to do a job and do it well.

A team needs to make sure they can get the best from player X.

To be fair to Salvi, us Bath fans would have had him back in a heartbeat, so maybe not completely anonymous! I was disappointed when Leicester tempted him back over here.

It does show how game plans can really shape how we perceive a player though, us fans often say we want to see more carrying or turnovers from forwards, but often their role within the team is to push in scrums, tackle and clear rucks. I remember an interview with Dowd at Wasps where he explained just that, some players were supposed to get into position for the carry, others were just suppose to follow and clear out the ruck behind them.

LondonTiger wrote:Julian Salvi, who lets face it was anonymous at Bath,

That's rubbish mate, he was blooming brilliant for us! Our player of the season when he left, we were gutted he went back to the Brumbies. He's a great player, was great for us, just maybe you didn't notice as much. Let's be honest, we were a much worse team back then, struggling for the top 6.

Tbh I'd say Salvi shows how effective Armitage could be even without Toulon's monster pack. Tigers have a good pack (we'd never accept anything less ) but it's been many years since they've had dominance anything like Toulon are capable of. Often he has to work with a pack that is coming in second to the opposition yet is almost always (the Bath game never happened) hugely influential. This is with Tigers having a preference for a more athletic line-out blindside and not a grafter like Wood. My faith in the England pack hasn't become so low that I think it's unreasonable to expect parity at least in a home world cup.

I'm not saying he's good enough to break into the squad and I get the argument that it's easy to look good in this Toulon side. I just feel he deserves more credit for not only being good enough to have a place amongst this set of superstar forwards, but is also frequently their best player.

My issue with S.Armitage is not as a player - if he played for an English club and did well enough then he should be looked at for England.

My issue is S.Armitage's loyalty to Toulon which is at odds with those of England's best interests.

The only way he would realistically come to England is either on loan or a large financial payout for Toulon - or both. That's not something I want to see.

In my opinion S.Armitage should have not re-signed for Toulon if he had RWC aspirations with England.

I've never really rated Crane at Tigers - I don't know why Tigers haven't invested in a top class no 8. They got rid of Waldrom who I thought was a superior player to Crane too.

I'm not a fan of only picking players based in England, I feel it handicaps the English team for little gain. The gap between the amount of money on offer for an England international playing in England and a player in France is nowhere near as significant as the gap between Wales and France. Also if the French have to bear in mind that an English player might now be missing for a 3rd of the season I would expect their offers to decrease accordingly. Maybe give the EPS payments only to players based here just to be sure, then I definitely wouldn't fear an exodus.

As for Crane, it's all about balance, innit? I'd agree that for most teams Waldrom is a better fit. But Crane is needed to have both Croft and Salvi on the flanks. Take Waldrom and one of the two would have to be replaced by a Robshaw type player. Although it's becoming hard to remember a fit Croft I personally think it was the right call, as much as I might miss the tank.

I'm not a fan of only picking players based in England, I feel it handicaps English team for little gain

I can go along with this. Its good for players to experience different cultures...and indeed id like more English players to go and experience S15 rugby in OZ, SA, Nz. I think this can only enhance them as players.

Fuzzy Dunlop

I disagree completely. It gives players an added incentive to stay playing for English clubs which maintains the strength of the AP. We've seen what a talent drain has done in Wales and to a lesser extent Scotland. We've seen the damage done to the French national side by the French clubs.

We've seen in English football what a lack of English talent for the top sides does for the national side.

As for Crane we'll have to agree to disagree. As a club player I would want Waldrom over Crane. Tigers would worry me more if they brought in someone like Faletau than Crane for example.

All fair an reasonable, I just don't believe there would be a talent drain. The situation in England is much closer to that in Ireland than it is Wales. Not only was Sexton the only high profile player to make the move but it took an absolutely ridiculous offer to tempt him. An offer which, let's face it, wouldn't be given to any of the current crop of England players, especially if they are missing for large chunks of the season. Interesting that Ireland continuing to pick Sexton at this time didn't lead to more internationals making the move.

Obviously if we're taking about Faletau vs Crane it's completely different to Waldrom vs Crane. Faletau is a better 8 than most in the AP, but it's unrealistic to expect that quality in every position. Barbieri and Pearce will no doubt take over Crane in the near future, though the point remains - while they prefer to have a lightweight 6 and a poaching 7 they will always have to prioritise 8s like Crane.


Edit missed this:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

I'm not a fan of only picking players based in England, I feel it handicaps English team for little gain

I can go along with this. Its good for players to experience different cultures...and indeed id like more English players to go and experience S15 rugby in OZ, SA, Nz. I think this can only enhance them as players.

Agree completely. Just imagine the benefit to handling and running skills from some time spent in Super Rugby. The quality of rugby there is far beyond anything played in the NH imo, so the players could only be improved if they can keep up with it.

Haskell was no less English than I am while he was working down in NZ, so let's not handicap the team by ignoring players who are abroad.