Last Minute Wins and Losses

Watching the All Blacks beat Australia with the last kick of the game, you couldn't help but be reminded of their similar feat against Ireland. Feats, if you also include their late 2nd Test win against Ireland during the last series in New Zealand

It made me reflect on the fact that I can't really recall England getting out of jail in such a fashion on too many occasions. Certainly, we won a World Cup with only moments left, but the scores were level at that point, so we weren't staring defeat in the face. Our last real escape was probably Dan Luger's try to beat Australia at Twickenham in 2000.

Conversely, the memory of France beating us with a late score last year is still fresh, and I won't ever forget Scott Gibbs at Wembley in 1999. As a Lions supporter, I've seen us lose Tests to last minute penalties in 1993 and 2009 (albeit the scores were level in that second South Africa Test).

I'm not sure whether I've just forgotten how close some of our wins might have been, or whether heartbreaking losses are so burned into my psyche that they take on an inordinate importance.

How does it go with other teams? I know Wales have lost tests to recently Australia and South Africa at the death, while Ireland's World Cup loss to Australia in 1997 shattered me, so goodness knows how Irish fans felt at the time.

South Africa has had far too many of those in the current season.

OK both tests against New Zealand were very close, either team could have won either match, so we were fortunate to win the one at home.

But against Wales we were behind until the 76th minute
Against Argentina we were behind until the 76th minute
Against Australia we were behind until the 69th minute, finishing with three tries in ten minutes.

But we lost in Perth in the final minute, thanks to Morne Steyn and an overzealous yellow card.

So overall I have had my share of close calls for the season.

I think we sometimes place too much emphasis on wins that happen in the last few minutes. They're called 'last gasp' or 'getting out of jail' but the best sides (NZ especially) seem to be able to score after multiple phases at the end of games. For example, on Saturday, I never really doubted that NZ would get the try and simililarly against Ireland.

It's all about playing the game for 80 minutes.

Plenty of games will be won/lost near the end because that's when exhaustion and impact players come into it (as well as team psychology and mental strength).

I think we need to get away from thinking that a loss at the end of the game is more damaging than losing it in the first half (for example). I think the best sides (and best coaches) look across the 80 minutes to see where the damage was inflicted.

Sides are often chasing the game when they leave gaps so they had obviously given themselves plenty of work to do.

I will never forget a game I watched in the HC between Ospreys and Sale, it was in 2005/6 I think, anyway it was at the Liberty Stadium, and it was close on full, Sale were winning all game, they were pushing the Ospreys all the way, and everytime the ospreys came back, Sale would score a penalty, but right at the end, when you would expect the teams to just settle for what they had, the Ospreys ran it back at Sale, and there was offload after offload, and Shane Williams went over, and James Hook kicked the conversion for a 1 point win, what a night that was. Here is a link:-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/my_club/ospreys/6053484.stm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6GcpgTzX4Q

Generally with Scotland the games tend to be lost way before the final whistle!!! We're use to hammerings or at least being several scores down.
As such I'd say a last minute loss is more damaging to players & fans. To come so close, to taste victory and then have it snatched away is hugely deflating.

Losing to France this year, after playing so well to a late kick (78/79 minutes on the clock) was gutting.

But nothing will ever come close to the pain of that game in Cardiff in 2010

GLove39 wrote:Generally with Scotland the games tend to be lost way before the final whistle!!! We're use to hammerings or at least being several scores down.
As such I'd say a last minute loss is more damaging to players & fans. To come so close, to taste victory and then have it snatched away is hugely deflating.

Losing to France this year, after playing so well to a late kick (78/79 minutes on the clock) was gutting.

But nothing will ever come close to the pain of that game in Cardiff in 2010

I forgot about that one, oh well, we do only seem to remember the bad times. I remeber Dan Parks was choked at the end of that one, holding back the tears, I on the other hand, was jumping around like an idiot.

Wales seems to have suffered from this a lot recently.. almost like the 3N sides have this ingrained belief they won't lose and that Wales have this ingrained believe they can't win... its a big mental block which some teams hold over others regardless of how many points they are ahead at some point in time.

Another great side at familiar 'last minuters' is Munster

New Zealand and Munster................ yeah, gotta nice ring to it.

fa0019 wrote:Wales seems to have suffered from this a lot recently.. almost like the 3N sides have this ingrained belief they won't lose and that Wales have this ingrained believe they can't win... its a big mental block which some teams hold over others regardless of how many points they are ahead at some point in time.

I was checking this morning, in the last 5 years on three occasions Wales led us by 11 , 13 and 17 and lost each time.

Biltong wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Wales seems to have suffered from this a lot recently.. almost like the 3N sides have this ingrained belief they won't lose and that Wales have this ingrained believe they can't win... its a big mental block which some teams hold over others regardless of how many points they are ahead at some point in time.

I was checking this morning, in the last 5 years on three occasions Wales led us by 11 , 13 and 17 and lost each time.

add to that list some of our Aussie games as well and its been heart breaking stuff I can tell you

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Biltong wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Wales seems to have suffered from this a lot recently.. almost like the 3N sides have this ingrained belief they won't lose and that Wales have this ingrained believe they can't win... its a big mental block which some teams hold over others regardless of how many points they are ahead at some point in time.

I was checking this morning, in the last 5 years on three occasions Wales led us by 11 , 13 and 17 and lost each time.

add to that list some of our Aussie games as well and its been heart breaking stuff I can tell you

Its a very interesting question why they can't hold onto a lead against the best.

Do they blow the doors off too early? Is it a lack of a decent impact bench? Is it mental belief or is it the confidence of SA & AUS etc to come good regardless of the deficit?

fa,

Interesting????? I can think of way more words to describe it that that lol.

I wouldn't say so its a fitness thing as we have also come back strong in certain games but I do think its bench or use of bench problem which is now leading onto a mental belief issue - it has to have an impact surely.

I can only think it is mental, how to overcome it is another story.

I think this is where luck is going to lay a huge role, they need one victory over us to believe, then things might change, all the more reason for us to bury them from the start every time we play them.

It's interesting though-with Wales it seems more of a mental block but Biltong's Bokke had five losses in a row and it seemed more of an annoyance that they hadn't gotten over the line rather than anything more as they know they're good enough to knock NZ over. Meyer knew that he just wanted Hansen to fetch the beers for once.

Wales beat Oz a few years ago I recall but didn't build on it. It's swings and roundabouts though-especially with Oz as they're going through their own rough patch with NZ but had their own purple patch over NZ at the start of the century. At least they're consistently close and not getting hidings all the time. They just can't drop their bundle.

In that 2nd test on the summer tour even though we were ahead until the last 3 minutes, I just knew that the Springboks would win, its just happens all the time and I'm used to it.

Though Australia are also another to do this, in the summer of 2012 - 2nd and 3rd tests lost in the dying minutes and in the final minute during that years autumn internationals.

It does get tiresome for the Welsh supporters.

Two worst come backs in history came v Ireland. Thats all I know

v Oz in 91
v NZ in 13

IronMike wrote:In that 2nd test on the summer tour even though we were ahead until the last 3 minutes, I just knew that the Springboks would win, its just happens all the time and I'm used to it.

Though Australia are also another to do this, in the summer of 2012 - 2nd and 3rd tests lost in the dying minutes and in the final minute during that years autumn internationals.

It does get tiresome for the Welsh supporters.

Chin up we have the '99 game against England, and the game against Scotland when we snuck past their 13 men right at the end, to balance it out.

Rugby Fan wrote: It made me reflect on the fact that I can't really recall England getting out of jail in such a fashion on too many occasions. Certainly, we won a World Cup with only moments left, but the scores were level at that point, so we weren't staring defeat in the face. Our last real escape was probably Dan Luger's try to beat Australia at Twickenham in 2000.

I'm sure Englands win over Australia in June 2010 was a last minute missed kick by Giteau away from being a loss. Also the win over Australia in the 2007 QF was a miss by Mortlock away from losing, so we seem to be able to hold on to leads some times. Funny all of these are against Australia though eh? But can't think of any of us winning at the death. Phil Vickery try against South Africa 2006 AI? Was that last play?

MichaelT wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote: It made me reflect on the fact that I can't really recall England getting out of jail in such a fashion on too many occasions. Certainly, we won a World Cup with only moments left, but the scores were level at that point, so we weren't staring defeat in the face. Our last real escape was probably Dan Luger's try to beat Australia at Twickenham in 2000.

I'm sure Englands win over Australia in June 2010 was a last minute missed kick by Giteau away from being a loss. Also the win over Australia in the 2007 QF was a miss by Mortlock away from losing, so we seem to be able to hold on to leads some times. Funny all of these are against Australia though eh? But can't think of any of us winning at the death. Phil Vickery try against South Africa 2006 AI? Was that last play?

England vs. Australia 2000. Last min single handed try by Luger on a balshaw chip at Twickenham
England vs. Australia 2002. Cohen scored late on after you were down 31-16 or something to win 32-31.
England vs. Scotland 2011 RWC... late try by Ashton to win the game.
England vs. Australia 1995 - Rob Andrews monster drop goal at Newlands to win 25-22. 79th min.

am sure there are more but those are the only ones I can think to hand.

It's a mental thing - backed up by the knowledge that you have the skill and tactics to execute.

The best teams always believe they can win the close calls and back themselves to do it. It's the difference between looking at the clock with minutes to go and thinking "we're 6 points from losing" or "we're 7 points from victory".

David Strettle almost won us the game against Wales a few seasons back, didn't quite work though. Is that even more gutting? The tension, the high, the low, the high and then that final low...

yappysnap wrote:David Strettle almost won us the game against Wales a few seasons back, didn't quite work though. Is that even more gutting? The tension, the high, the low, the high and then that final low...

Wasn't it that you were 12-19 down and he near touched down in the corner. Awarded it would have been 17-19 with a conversion to come so at best it would have been a draw right?

England don't get last minute wins.... Wtf, no one yet mentioned Jonny's career highlight off his right boot in the last minute of extra time?

Everyone gets them occasionally.

Scotland
Italy this year
France in 1995 with big gavs last minute touchdown in between the posts in Paris.
Australia 2012
Fiji rwc2003

fa0019 wrote:England don't get last minute wins.... Wtf, no one yet mentioned Jonny's career highlight off his right boot in the last minute of extra time?

Everyone gets them occasionally.

Scotland
Italy this year
France in 1995 with big gavs last minute touchdown in between the posts in Paris.
Australia 2012
Fiji rwc2003

Not forgetting Australia 2009!

The disbelief that we were still in the game with 10 minutes to go! The delight around Murrayfield as Paterson slotted that drop goal. The bum clenching fear as Australia attacked mere meters from the line, followed by the massive gut wrenching disappointment as they went over. Then the vague hope that Giteau might miss the conversion, followed by euphoria!

The greatest game of rugby ever played was won in the 83rd minute.

Australia V New Zealand, Sydney 2000.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
The greatest game of rugby ever played was won in the 83rd minute.

 Australia V New Zealand, Sydney 2000.

That was some game. I knew the result by the time I eventually got a chance to see it but it was still exhilarating to watch.