The Great Unbeaten Wales of the '70s

by TobyBryant Fri 31 Oct 2014 - 8:03

Here's the thing. I love rugby and I watch a lot of it on the TV and get out to as many games as I possibly can and participate at my own poor social level for the enjoyment.

I can appreciate the skills of players and the dedication to the profession as it is these days.

But for years gone by, where video footage is not available all I have to go on is historically compiled stats being published through online aggregators and dusty old sports almanacs.

I've heard welsh people speak of their great unbeaten side of the 70's with such passion and pride but only in general terms or highlighting one or two special moments. I've heard many superlatives about Welsh players of that era and this all leads me to say "hey! I missed out here!".

So what I would enjoy and perhaps others here might feel the same way would be if some of our Welsh posters might fill out the story a bit with some vivid recanting of maybe a few special games or a test series, in a sort of story format so that I/we might feel that the game happened this year for instance and I can make some attempt to fill in this gap in my knowledge and understanding of the game?

What do you Welsh boys say? Give us a story!

by nobbled Fri 31 Oct 2014 - 11:08

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pu2at_cqJQM

Do you not have youtube?

by rainbow-warrior Fri 31 Oct 2014 - 11:23

TobyBryant wrote:Here's the thing. I love rugby and I watch a lot of it on the TV and get out to as many games as I possibly can and participate at my own poor social level for the enjoyment.

I can appreciate the skills of players and the dedication to the profession as it is these days.

But for years gone by, where video footage is not available all I have to go on is historically compiled stats being published through online aggregators and dusty old sports almanacs.

I've heard welsh people speak of their great unbeaten side of the 70's with such passion and pride but only in general terms or highlighting one or two special moments. I've heard many superlatives about Welsh players of that era and this all leads me to say "hey! I missed out here!".

So what I would enjoy and perhaps others here might feel the same way would be if some of our Welsh posters might fill out the story a bit with some vivid recanting of maybe a few special games or a test series, in a sort of story format so that I/we might feel that the game happened this year for instance and I can make some attempt to fill in this gap in my knowledge and understanding of the game?

What do you Welsh boys say? Give us a story!

by fa0019 Fri 31 Oct 2014 - 11:33

never beat the boks, never beat NZ.

However.... even here in SA and with all the history of the boks... you may be surprised that here if you ask anybody from the public to pundits etc who is the greatest player of all time they'll probably say Gareth Edwards.

by rainbow-warrior Fri 31 Oct 2014 - 11:35

fa0019 wrote:never beat the boks, never beat NZ.

However.... even here in SA and with all the history of the boks... you may be surprised that here if you ask anybody from the public to pundits etc who is the greatest player of all time they'll probably say Gareth Edwards.

by fa0019 Fri 31 Oct 2014 - 11:38

rainbow-warrior wrote:
fa0019 wrote:never beat the boks, never beat NZ.

However.... even here in SA and with all the history of the boks... you may be surprised that here if you ask anybody from the public to pundits etc who is the greatest player of all time they'll probably say Gareth Edwards.

I'd do your homework before coming out with statements like that pal.

ok tell me.

When did Wales beat the boks or beat NZ in the 70s? or a decade before or after?

by tigertattie Fri 31 Oct 2014 - 11:53

"un-beaten"???

Wummery at it's worst!

by **Biltong** Fri 31 Oct 2014 - 12:30

fa0019 wrote:never beat the boks, never beat NZ.

However.... even here in SA and with all the history of the boks... you may be surprised that here if you ask anybody from the public to pundits etc who is the greatest player of all time they'll probably say Gareth Edwards.

I seriously doubt that.

by fa0019 Fri 31 Oct 2014 - 12:33

Biltong wrote:
fa0019 wrote:never beat the boks, never beat NZ.

However.... even here in SA and with all the history of the boks... you may be surprised that here if you ask anybody from the public to pundits etc who is the greatest player of all time they'll probably say Gareth Edwards.

I seriously doubt that.

Dude it was in die burger during the last lions tour. They called him the greatest ever.

Of the boere who I know who remember the 70s well enough many of them hold him in the highest regard.

by jimmyinthewell68 Fri 31 Oct 2014 - 12:58

A Welsh great who would make the worlds best top 23 ever .

by Guest Fri 31 Oct 2014 - 14:06

I've been a Cardiff and Wales supporter for 60 years, so it's obvious where my sympathies lie!
The good thing about the Welsh sides of the '70s wasn't that they were never beaten - they were, and the record included defeats by New Zealand and a draw with South Africa. No, the good thing was the kind of rugby they wanted to play, and often succeeded in playing, which was thrilling but not airy-fairy Barbarians stuff.
One ex-captain, Mervyn Davies, wrote later that he approached matches with a rough three-stage plan: 1. Establish forward domination 2. Get into the lead no matter how 3. Score a shedload of points - but only if you were well on top. That's fairly pragmatic!
It was an approach which proved very successful for Wales in the '70s and had the rugby public in raptures because the team often got to stage 3.
As for Edwards, he was at the heart of the Welsh team for a decade, whilst his performances for the Lions in the pre-Rugby World Cup Era were special.

by PenfroPete Fri 31 Oct 2014 - 14:17

Wales were never BEATEN by South Africa in the 1970's Wink

Wales 6 South Africa 6 - 24 January 1970

Wales were in seventh heaven at the end of this their seventh encounter with South Africa as the home side put misery of 1963 firmly behind them and produced the first share of the spoils with the Springboks.Wales's youngest captain, Gareth Edwards led a depleted Wales side out at the Arms Park in a match that many critics had suggested should not have been played due to opposition to the Apartheid regime. Howls of dissent had greeted the Springboks at each of their matches, they had lived cocooned in their hotels and had already lost to Scotland 6-3, England 11-8 and drawn with Ireland 8-8 before heading Cardiff. Before this match was over, Edwards would produce a moment of magic to savour and send the home crowd ecstatic.
Wales came out of the traps quickly playing towards the West Stand in the first half which remained scoreless. As had become the norm for Wales v South Africa fixtures at the Arms Park of the era, the conditions were muddy and clean play virtually impossible. In the quagmire of a pitch Mervyn Davies enjoyed an afternoon testing himself against some of the greatest back row forwards in the history of rugby.

The match came to life in the second half with a score against the run of play in the far corner of the West Stand by Syd Nomis. Conditions made a game of running rugby virtually impossible and De Villiers and Gareth Edwards traded penalties.

Refusing to give up and trailing by three points to South Africa's unconverted try and penalty, Wales responded to South Africa's defence by spreading the ball wide. Deep into injury time Phil Bennett passed to Barry John who kicked high and wide accross the field. Centre Ian Hall secured the ball and set up a ruck ten yards from the South African line.

Ever-present as an icon of expansive thinking during the 70s golden era, Gareth Edwards, spotting that Syd Nomis was embroiled in the ruck and unable to defend the far side of the field, ran past the back of the ruck, received the ball and ran down the narrow channel to quite literally splat down in the far corner at the East Terrace levelling the match at 6-6.

The match very nearly became Wales's first victory over South Africa and stepping up with confidence from the try Edwards prepared to slot the conversion between the posts. He very nearly found the accuracy, but he had not found the distance and the heavy leather ball, saturated from the dampness of the field of play, fell six feet short of the posts and slightly wide.

The try remained one of the most iconic moments of 70s Welsh rugby and although many of the Welsh players were disappointed with a draw, in later years, the faltering record of Wales against South Africa showed just what an important draw the match was.

by fa0019 Fri 31 Oct 2014 - 15:10

Its a real shame in honesty that Wales didn't tour NZ or SA as much in that era. Touring was only with the lions.

Home we would see NZ or SA tour Europe once ever 4 years and they would play England, Ireland, Scotland Wales respectively.

Away the Lions would tour every 6 years to SA as a combined side.

That's just the way it was.

Wales played the boks twice in the 60s and once in the 70s.

They played NZ four times in the 60s and twice in the 70s.

Had they played them as often as they do today they would have got over the line for sure but history tells us

20 years, 6 matches, 6 losses to NZ and 3 matches, 2 losses, 1 draw to SA. I still think though that chaps like Davies, JPR and Edwards would be as good today as they were then. They were that good.

by lauriehow Fri 31 Oct 2014 - 17:07

I am the same age as Barry John and once played against him - LSE students on tour v Carmarthen, and Barry was a local student at Trinity College so turned out on a Friday night, and again the next morning for Llanelli as i remember it. I think this would have been in 1965, the day before that year's Wales v England. As a hooker I never got to him before the ball left him, but I can still see the silky swivel of the hips and long pass out as I approached. And I agree that Gareth Edwards was the best no. 9 ever seen - not big but thighs like tree trunks and explosive speed and power personified, with a huge pass that gave the outside half an armchair ride. Wales often won right at the end, like NZ today, with an inner confidence they found a way. On Wales v NZ, I was there as a young lad in 1953 when Wales and Cardiff beat them, the last time it has happened. I have lost the autographs and little silver fern badge my father had from the NZ team when they bought clothes at his warehouse, but still remember what huge pride we had in the Wales team at that time.

by bedfordwelsh Fri 31 Oct 2014 - 17:14

[quote="lauriehow"]Wales often won right at the end, like NZ today, with an inner confidence they found a way.

Some of that would do wonders with the current squad.

by fa0019 Fri 31 Oct 2014 - 17:17

lauriehow wrote:I am the same age as Barry John and once played against him - LSE students on tour v Carmarthen, and Barry was a local student at Trinity College so turned out on a Friday night, and again the next morning for Llanelli as i remember it. I think this would have been in 1965, the day before that year's Wales v England. As a hooker I never got to him before the ball left him, but I can still see the silky swivel of the hips and long pass out as I approached. And I agree that Gareth Edwards was the best no. 9 ever seen - not big but thighs like tree trunks and explosive speed and power personified, with a huge pass that gave the outside half an armchair ride. Wales often won right at the end, like NZ today, with an inner confidence they found a way. On Wales v NZ, I was there as a young lad in 1953 when Wales and Cardiff beat them, the last time it has happened. I have lost the autographs and little silver fern badge my father had from the NZ team when they bought clothes at his warehouse, but still remember what huge pride we had in the Wales team at that time.

Something to tell the grandkids Laurie!!! That's something you don't read much about here!!! I played against Gavin Henson myself in age grade but don't remember him, old mates do. I can only recall the massive pack that day.

by kingraf Fri 31 Oct 2014 - 17:26

A mate has a similar story re: Pollard at u18 week. Doesn't remember him, just his team getting slow ball at the breakdown

by Taylorman Fri 31 Oct 2014 - 20:13

Wales were beaten easily in the tour to NZ in 69 though they beat Aus. If you look at that side you would have thought they would have done better. Names like JPR, Phil Bennett, Gareth Edwards, Barry John, John Dawes, Mervyn Davies etc.

They then lost to perhaps one of our worst touring sides in the 72-73 tour then again in the Haden debacle in 78, only to start 1980 with a resounding loss to Mouries men.

So in NZ we don't see the 70's Wales side as anything particularly special as the 5N wasn't overly watched here until a bit later on. Thats a pity because its only later on I began to appreciate how good they were in the NH.

Where Wales shone through this way was their contributions to the 71 and 74 Lions tours...74 perhaps when British rugby reached its highest ever standard the way it went through South Africa. Up till then the ABs hadnt got remotely close to doing anything like that and after losing in 76 to the Boks we were really on tenterhooks for the 77 Lions tour. Sadly it coincided with a drop off in class from 71 and 74, to our huge relief.

But the 71 Lions and to an extent some in 77 had some glorious players, some of those named above. we just got the feeling that they needed the clout of the other home unions to really challenge down this way, Aus at the time aside.

by fa0019 Fri 31 Oct 2014 - 20:22

Taylorman I think you're right. The Wales players didn't represent the lions like England in the 90s. I believe it was around 7-8 players in the test side. The most but not all bar 1-2. The pack was I believe 2 of each. It was a real British team in that era

by Taylorman Fri 31 Oct 2014 - 20:39

fa0019 wrote:Taylorman I think you're right. The Wales players didn't represent the lions like England in the 90s. I believe it was around 7-8 players in the test side. The most but not all bar 1-2. The pack was I believe 2 of each. It was a real British team in that era

I always saw the 71 and 74 sides as Wales +. Most of the backline was usually Welsh but yes a good spread through the pack.

by bedfordwelsh Fri 31 Oct 2014 - 20:48

Taylorman wrote:
fa0019 wrote:Taylorman I think you're right. The Wales players didn't represent the lions like England in the 90s. I believe it was around 7-8 players in the test side. The most but not all bar 1-2. The pack was I believe 2 of each. It was a real British team in that era

I always saw the 71 and 74 sides as Wales +. Most of the backline was usually Welsh but yes a good spread through the pack.

Jumping forward to the last lions tour where Wales supplied 8,7 and 10 players respectively for the tests I never thought of them as anything other han the Lions. For me they weren't Wales likewise during the 90s tours for me weren't English. I love the Lions and the whole concept and take it as the Lions, always have always will.

by The Saint Fri 31 Oct 2014 - 20:53

fa0019 wrote:
lauriehow wrote:I am the same age as Barry John and once played against him - LSE students on tour v Carmarthen, and Barry was a local student at Trinity College so turned out on a Friday night, and again the next morning for Llanelli as i remember it. I think this would have been in 1965, the day before that year's Wales v England. As a hooker I never got to him before the ball left him, but I can still see the silky swivel of the hips and long pass out as I approached. And I agree that Gareth Edwards was the best no. 9 ever seen - not big but thighs like tree trunks and explosive speed and power personified, with a huge pass that gave the outside half an armchair ride. Wales often won right at the end, like NZ today, with an inner confidence they found a way. On Wales v NZ, I was there as a young lad in 1953 when Wales and Cardiff beat them, the last time it has happened. I have lost the autographs and little silver fern badge my father had from the NZ team when they bought clothes at his warehouse, but still remember what huge pride we had in the Wales team at that time.

Something to tell the grandkids Laurie!!! That's something you don't read much about here!!! I played against Gavin Henson myself in age grade but don't remember him, old mates do. I can only recall the massive pack that day.

Sounds interesting though, who were you and Henson playing for?

by lauriehow Fri 31 Oct 2014 - 21:53

Talking of grandchildren, I took one of mine age 14 at the time to see the Cardiff Blues just as they were moving back to the Arms park.At half-time we were leaving a marquee before the game and I asked him who the older guy was just in front of us, with his arms around two young men on either side of him.

He had no idea, but recognized Leigh Halfpenny and Alex Cuthbert.

I told him he was looking at the great Gareth Edwards, passing on his knowledge of the game.

by emack2 Fri 31 Oct 2014 - 22:27

During the late 1960`s NH Rugby coaching caught up and overtook the SH with people like Carwyn James etc.
The Boks from total domination up until 1951-2 started a gradual decline 1953 first loss to Aus in SA,Lions 55
drawn series,NZ first series win 1956,France 1958 first home series lost.1964 lost test to France,1965 lost
first series to Aus,and second series to NZ.From being the best they were now joint best with NZ home
advantage deciding series till 1982.

NZ from the point at one time of losing 6 out of 7 vs SA and the all important only Home series loss to them
managed to reduce the overall gap to about 18-21 by end of amateur era.In the 1970`s AB`s lost 4 series
and 16 tests.to SA 8-2,France 3 out of 5,Lions 3 and England 1973.From being THE best they became the
whipping boys but still achieved 64% win stats.

SA in the same period to 1976 glenaeagles agreement. had a 64% win ratio which is there overall average
to date.In that period they won two home series v Nz,were hammered by the Lions,and lost or drew with
every NH side bar France they met.At the end of Amateur period they had a win /loss ratio v allcomers
1 team in UK had 5 test wins,and 2 others did the Grand Slam.NO NZ side did this on a Tour though 2
teams toured unbeaten.

During period 1969-80 Wales and France were dominant,in Frances case they good or awful depending
on the year."Wales the worst team ever to tour NZ 1969" "Edwards etc nothing special "Barry John
the biggest mug I`ve ever met[Earl Kirton].Wales have on ly beaten SA once,NZ 3 times.

Chris laidlaw on Edwards ,at various times Edwards,De Villiers,Going,Laidlaw ,and Catch pole were
all The Greatest."Ask the Scrum halves they know?answer Catchpole."

by rainbow-warrior Sat 1 Nov 2014 - 0:55

At least in Wales we never make excuses for defeats (poisoning, man-flu, etc) and our supporters are hardly arrogant, unlike one country I can name .....NZ

by Taylorman Sat 1 Nov 2014 - 1:29

rainbow-warrior wrote:At least in Wales we never make excuses for defeats (poisoning, man-flu, etc) and our supporters are hardly arrogant, unlike one country I can name .....NZ

no certainly not like Haden diving ay Rainbow. They still can't accept that Wheel was penalised for holding down, even though Quittendon confirmed it immediately. But its good to see you took hat huge chip with you down to the Bay...look after it will you.

by aucklandlaurie Sat 1 Nov 2014 - 2:11

rainbow-warrior wrote:At least in Wales we never make excuses for defeats (poisoning, man-flu, etc) and our supporters are hardly arrogant, unlike one country I can name .....NZ

I dont think even Walt Disney would have the imagination to come up with excuses for 60 years of defeats.

by Guest Sat 1 Nov 2014 - 5:51

aucklandlaurie wrote:
rainbow-warrior wrote:At least in Wales we never make excuses for defeats (poisoning, man-flu, etc) and our supporters are hardly arrogant, unlike one country I can name .....NZ

I dont think even Walt Disney would have the imagination to come up with excuses for 60 years of defeats.

Stuth, has it been that long? No wonder some fans enter into petty name calling.

by Guest Sat 1 Nov 2014 - 7:19

Taylorman wrote:
rainbow-warrior wrote:At least in Wales we never make excuses for defeats (poisoning, man-flu, etc) and our supporters are hardly arrogant, unlike one country I can name .....NZ

no certainly not like Haden diving ay Rainbow. They still can't accept that Wheel was penalised for holding down, even though Quittendon confirmed it immediately. But its good to see you took hat huge chip with you down to the Bay...look after it will you.

I was at that 1978 game supporting Wales. I've always thought that what really disappointed Welsh supporters was nothing to do with Haden and Oliver. It was the fact that we came so close to winning despite the absence of our great half-backs, Edwards and Bennett, who had retired a few months earlier. There was a deep down feeling amongst supporters that Wales could well have won if they'd only delayed their retirement until after the All Blacks game. It was a similar feeling at the other Wales loss to NZ in 1972, a game played just after Barry John's retirement. They were questions of what might have been
As for the lineout incident, as far as the crowd was concerned - without the benefit of large-screen video replays - everyone could see Haden and Oliver jumping out in a very theatrical way, whereas not everyone could see Wheel holding down on another All Black. Quittenden made a correct decision but the action of those two left a nasty taste. For anyone who follows rugby history, the feeling evoked compares with the outcry over Deans's 'try' for NZ against Wales in 1905 and 'the missed forward pass' by France against NZ in 2007.

by TobyBryant Sat 1 Nov 2014 - 9:00

PenfroPete wrote:Wales were never BEATEN by South Africa in the 1970's

Wales 6 South Africa 6 - 24 January 1970

Wales were in seventh heaven at the end of this their seventh encounter with South Africa as the home side put misery of 1963 firmly behind them and produced the first share of the spoils with the Springboks.Wales's youngest captain, Gareth Edwards led a depleted Wales side out at the Arms Park in a match that many critics had suggested should not have been played due to opposition to the Apartheid regime. Howls of dissent had greeted the Springboks at each of their matches, they had lived cocooned in their hotels and had already lost to Scotland 6-3, England 11-8 and drawn with Ireland 8-8 before heading Cardiff. Before this match was over, Edwards would produce a moment of magic to savour and send the home crowd ecstatic.
Wales came out of the traps quickly playing towards the West Stand in the first half which remained scoreless. As had become the norm for Wales v South Africa fixtures at the Arms Park of the era, the conditions were muddy and clean play virtually impossible. In the quagmire of a pitch Mervyn Davies enjoyed an afternoon testing himself against some of the greatest back row forwards in the history of rugby.

The match came to life in the second half with a score against the run of play in the far corner of the West Stand by Syd Nomis. Conditions made a game of running rugby virtually impossible and De Villiers and Gareth Edwards traded penalties.

Refusing to give up and trailing by three points to South Africa's unconverted try and penalty, Wales responded to South Africa's defence by spreading the ball wide. Deep into injury time Phil Bennett passed to Barry John who kicked high and wide accross the field. Centre Ian Hall secured the ball and set up a ruck ten yards from the South African line.

Ever-present as an icon of expansive thinking during the 70s golden era, Gareth Edwards, spotting that Syd Nomis was embroiled in the ruck and unable to defend the far side of the field, ran past the back of the ruck, received the ball and ran down the narrow channel to quite literally splat down in the far corner at the East Terrace levelling the match at 6-6.

The match very nearly became Wales's first victory over South Africa and stepping up with confidence from the try Edwards prepared to slot the conversion between the posts. He very nearly found the accuracy, but he had not found the distance and the heavy leather ball, saturated from the dampness of the field of play, fell six feet short of the posts and slightly wide.

The try remained one of the most iconic moments of 70s Welsh rugby and although many of the Welsh players were disappointed with a draw, in later years, the faltering record of Wales against South Africa showed just what an important draw the match was.

Great post! That's what I was looking for! Thanks!

by **Biltong** Sat 1 Nov 2014 - 9:27

What I find incredible is when you look at the amateur era South Africa played most of their tests against the UK away from home.

Up to our isolation these are the stats.

Wales 7 matches only one at home
England 9 matches only 3 at home
Ireland 10 matches only 3 at home
Scotland 8 matches only 1 at home.

That is 34 tests of which 8 were at home and 26 away from home.

Their home record was 7 wins one loss.
Their away record 18 wins, 3 draws, 5 losses.

Away win record 75%.
Home win record 87,5%

by **LondonTiger** Sat 1 Nov 2014 - 10:24

Taylorman wrote:
fa0019 wrote:Taylorman I think you're right. The Wales players didn't represent the lions like England in the 90s. I believe it was around 7-8 players in the test side. The most but not all bar 1-2. The pack was I believe 2 of each. It was a real British team in that era

I always saw the 71 and 74 sides as Wales +. Most of the backline was usually Welsh but yes a good spread through the pack.

More so for 71 than 74. Typical team in 71 saw 5 welsh backs + Gibson and Duckham with 3 ( once 4) forwards. 74 saw 4 welsh backs and 2 welsh forwards typically.

by SecretFly Sat 1 Nov 2014 - 11:47

Biltong wrote:What I find incredible is when you look at the amateur era South Africa played most of their tests against the UK away from home.

Up to our isolation these are the stats.

Wales 7 matches only one at home
England 9 matches only 3 at home
Ireland 10 matches only 3 at home
Scotland 8 matches only 1 at home.

That is 34 tests of which 8 were at home and 26 away from home.

Their home record was 7 wins one loss.
Their away record 18 wins, 3 draws, 5 losses.

Away win record 75%.
Home win record 87,5%

The grand old days when politics complicated the idea of home and away.

by rainbow-warrior Sat 1 Nov 2014 - 12:19

Taylorman wrote:
rainbow-warrior wrote:At least in Wales we never make excuses for defeats (poisoning, man-flu, etc) and our supporters are hardly arrogant, unlike one country I can name .....NZ

no certainly not like Haden diving ay Rainbow. They still can't accept that Wheel was penalised for holding down, even though Quittendon confirmed it immediately. But its good to see you took hat huge chip with you down to the Bay...look after it will you.

Nothing as funny as a kiwi with a chip on their shoulder pal. Given me 12 years of laughter ... that's longer than Friends, Only Fools and Horses and Two and a Half Men Whistle

by Taylorman Sat 1 Nov 2014 - 13:07

LondonTiger wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
fa0019 wrote:Taylorman I think you're right. The Wales players didn't represent the lions like England in the 90s. I believe it was around 7-8 players in the test side. The most but not all bar 1-2. The pack was I believe 2 of each. It was a real British team in that era

I always saw the 71 and 74 sides as Wales +. Most of the backline was usually Welsh but yes a good spread through the pack.

More so for 71 than 74. Typical team in 71 saw 5 welsh backs + Gibson and Duckham with 3 ( once 4) forwards. 74 saw 4 welsh backs and 2 welsh forwards typically.

yep..certainly 71 felt like the Wales show- JPR, Edwards and mainly King John, with the skipper to boot.

by Taylorman Sat 1 Nov 2014 - 13:16

optimist wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
rainbow-warrior wrote:At least in Wales we never make excuses for defeats (poisoning, man-flu, etc) and our supporters are hardly arrogant, unlike one country I can name .....NZ

no certainly not like Haden diving ay Rainbow. They still can't accept that Wheel was penalised for holding down, even though Quittendon confirmed it immediately. But its good to see you took hat huge chip with you down to the Bay...look after it will you.

I was at that 1978 game supporting Wales. I've always thought that what really disappointed Welsh supporters was nothing to do with Haden and Oliver. It was the fact that we came so close to winning despite the absence of our great half-backs, Edwards and Bennett, who had retired a few months earlier. There was a deep down feeling amongst supporters that Wales could well have won if they'd only delayed their retirement until after the All Blacks game. It was a similar feeling at the other Wales loss to NZ in 1972, a game played just after Barry John's retirement. They were questions of what might have been
As for the lineout incident, as far as the crowd was concerned - without the benefit of large-screen video replays - everyone could see Haden and Oliver jumping out in a very theatrical way, whereas not everyone could see Wheel holding down on another All Black. Quittenden made a correct decision but the action of those two left a nasty taste. For anyone who follows rugby history, the feeling evoked compares with the outcry over Deans's 'try' for NZ against Wales in 1905 and 'the missed forward pass' by France against NZ in 2007.

Yes I know it wasnt good but the funny thing is up until then NZ had a fairly similar relationship with Wales as they did SA. Both passionate sides, both had had controversial and special matches that got discussed for decades, and like SA Wales were up on NZ results wise for many decades.

Back here we felt Mouries sides win in 1980 represented a bit of a turning point and the point we started to edge away. It was clean, lacked controversy and ignited a run of similar wins that still lasts to this day, few being close encounters. A bit like the feeling in the 90's when we started to pull away from the Boks, which, bar the odd loss, still exists, though not as convincingly. As with Wales, we've had many tests versus the Boks where the Boks just didnt turn up- and that never used to happen.

by maestegmafia Sat 1 Nov 2014 - 23:28

fa0019 wrote:Taylorman I think you're right. The Wales players didn't represent the lions like England in the 90s. I believe it was around 7-8 players in the test side. The most but not all bar 1-2. The pack was I believe 2 of each. It was a real British team in that era

In the 97 lions tour Scott quinnell and rob howley went home early. Both would have been test starters. Ieuan Evans was another who was injured in the first test missing the next two. All three were replaced by English understudies.

by fa0019 Sun 2 Nov 2014 - 20:34

maestegmafia wrote:
fa0019 wrote:Taylorman I think you're right. The Wales players didn't represent the lions like England in the 90s. I believe it was around 7-8 players in the test side. The most but not all bar 1-2. The pack was I believe 2 of each. It was a real British team in that era

In the 97 lions tour Scott quinnell and rob howley went home early. Both would have been test starters. Ieuan Evans was another who was injured in the first test missing the next two. All three were replaced by English understudies.

I wonder if the lions would have won without rodber...he was immense and a bit more suited to the boks IMO than Quinnell. Same with howley, Dawson's try really set the cat amongst the pigeons in the first test.

We'll never know. Sometimes injuries are a blessing in disguise.

In 89 will carling got injured and guscott replaced him. Would carling have done what guscott did... Doubtful.

by Hound of Harrow Mon 3 Nov 2014 - 11:07

The 'unbeaten' bit of the article is a complete wum. But that Welsh team of the early 70s (when I played scrum half at school*) were the great entertainers in an era of forward based set piece attrition.

* Edwards = genius. The best I've ever seen.

by fa0019 Mon 3 Nov 2014 - 11:45

For me winning an away series in NZ or an away series in SA are greater achievements on their own than winning a world cup.... and JPR, Edwards, Davies who were lynchpins of both sides... won both.

For me if I take someone like John Eales and Timmy Horan and match up them against those 3 I would say the Lions of 71 & 74 eclipsed the 91 & 99 wins and Du Randts 95 & 07 wins.

When you think the key positions 15,10,9,8 were all welsh I think they can be mighty proud regardless of them not being unbeaten or never beating NZ or SA during the era without the lions.

I doubt records such as those will ever be eclipsed. Probably the greatest achievement in the history of the game.

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