'Pointless' Challenge Cup unsustainable - Jackman

by brennomac Fri 31 Oct 2014, 6:04 pm

First topic message reminder :

Interesting comments by Grenoble coach Barnard Jackman about the Challenge Cup - just reinforces what we thought the French clubs' attitude to this non-competition is - give fringe players a run-out while the first team is rested for the Top 14

by quinsforever Thu 06 Nov 2014, 12:41 am

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Actually, having had a look at the pools. Newcastle look like progressing and none of the Pro 12 bar Embra do. So it is very hard to see past an English winner of the Comp.

English teams ALWAYS try in Europe. Even if they are out of contention they never roll over. You have to admire them for it. Particularly in contrast to the French.

French comp has more than a century of history and the super long season there is so attritional that it mitigates the prioritization over the Amlin

see the benfit of doing the research before attacking? Smile

by **Notch** Thu 06 Nov 2014, 1:09 am

quinsforever wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
quinsforever wrote:and maybe the pro12 unions shouldnt have been so quick to veto the 20th spot in the top tier going to the winner of the Amin. after all, PRl and LNR were strongly in favour.

quinsforever wrote:And easy to say no. Which is what AP and top14 clubs would do

Make up your mind!
One minute you're saying the PRL and LNR are strongly in favour of having a spot for the winner of the Challenge Cup and the next you're saying they would say no.
that kind of deliberate misquoting without context will get you banned.

apologise, or re-quote in context, or i will make one of the moderators get you to do it

Probably won't get you banned. Lets be serious. Just be nice to each other and so on.

by beshocked Thu 06 Nov 2014, 11:07 am

The winner of the Amlin needs to auto qualify for the top tier next season - I don't know why that's not in place.

Additionally I think the winner of the Amlin should get an extra space for their league instead of this stupid play off system.

As it stands it is 6,6,7 with the last place being solely open to English and French I think it should be open to Pro12 too.

An extra space for the country that wins would add extra incentive to win.

Alternatively I have always supported the 6,6,8 split as my ideal solution.

by SecretFly Thu 06 Nov 2014, 11:31 am

If this is what a well contructed, planned and professional alternative to ERC sounds like.............................. pages and pages and pages of 606 restructural guff?????

You guys..........................

stop with the schit, please..............

It's too late. Perfection has taken over the ERC mismanaged madhouse. Leave it be. It's perfect as it is.

by quinsforever Thu 06 Nov 2014, 11:34 am

Can't polish a turd is I think the phrase you were looking for Fly Wink

by beshocked Thu 06 Nov 2014, 12:04 pm

Secretfly it's actually very simple. It's just been overcomplicated.

I asked for the 6,6,8 from the beginning but it tooks months of wrangling to get to 6,6,7 +1.

It's simple.

If you feel there is a lack of value - then add some.

If you thought the previous ERC set up was perfect then you are highly naive.

My ideal situation is a more competitive top tier and a more competitive 2nd tier. I feel that the current situation is better than it was but there are modifications to be made.

On a side note I would like to see a shield trophy awarded for the table toppers in the AP,Pro12 and Top 14. This would add some value to finishing 1st as currently it is not important.

by Dubbelyew L Overate Thu 06 Nov 2014, 12:31 pm

beshocked wrote:The winner of the Amlin needs to auto qualify for the top tier next season - I don't know why that's not in place.

Additionally I think the winner of the Amlin should get an extra space for their league instead of this stupid play off system.

As it stands it is 6,6,7 with the last place being solely open to English and French I think it should be open to Pro12 too.

An extra space for the country that wins would add extra incentive to win.

Alternatively I have always supported the 6,6,8 split as my ideal solution.

Twas only this year that the qualifying playoffs was limited to Wasps and Stade. Next year it'll be Pro12 "8th" v AP 7th, then winner vs T14 7th.

In my view, the Challenge Cup winner should replace the 7th/8th team of their league in the playoffs if not already qualified. If already qualified, then no coat-tailing of losing finalists, or nations/leagues extra team.

by beshocked Thu 06 Nov 2014, 12:35 pm

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:
beshocked wrote:The winner of the Amlin needs to auto qualify for the top tier next season - I don't know why that's not in place.

Additionally I think the winner of the Amlin should get an extra space for their league instead of this stupid play off system.

As it stands it is 6,6,7 with the last place being solely open to English and French I think it should be open to Pro12 too.

An extra space for the country that wins would add extra incentive to win.

Alternatively I have always supported the 6,6,8 split as my ideal solution.

Twas only this year that the qualifying playoffs was limited to Wasps and Stade. Next year it'll be Pro12 "8th" v AP 7th, then winner vs T14 7th.

In my view, the Challenge Cup winner should replace the 7th/8th team of their league in the playoffs if not already qualified. If already qualified, then no coat-tailing of losing finalists, or nations/leagues extra team.

I don't even think there should be a playoff - it's just adding games for the sake of it.

by SecretFly Thu 06 Nov 2014, 12:39 pm

beshocked wrote:Secretfly it's actually very simple. It's just been overcomplicated.

I asked for the 6,6,8 from the beginning but it tooks months of wrangling to get to 6,6,7 +1.

It's simple.

If you feel there is a lack of value - then add some.

If you thought the previous ERC set up was perfect then you are highly naive.

My ideal situation is a more competitive top tier and a more competitive 2nd tier. I feel that the current situation is better than it was but there are modifications to be made.

On a side note I would like to see a shield trophy awarded for the table toppers in the AP,Pro12 and Top 14. This would add some value to finishing 1st as currently it is not important.

Oh God... now a Shield? Sorry but it is getting so much like football even in the lingo. And I detest League football, beshocked; with its culture of eternal cups and shields for everyone in the audience through one season. Cups, shields, badges, silverware. Too much of it...much too much of it. Again, as I've alluded to before, it's like boxing with its myriad of belts even in the one weight category. Just to spread the love of illusion that you are indeed - the Best.

So no. Top of the League has always been important to me and it's there in the records for anyone to see.
For Silverware, it's either Top of the Table OR Playoff Winner. That's more than enough - one trophy, take your pick.
I'd prefer a Top of the League without the playoffs (such a position more fully tells the story of seasonal League dominance) but I seem to be in the minority, so I bow to democracy.

As for the Challenge Cup. Yes, it is simple. It's too late for 'modification' chat now. That's my point.

The guys who wanted more power got their more power and they've given us this mottled present. Had this present been an ERC self-saving compromise, the clubs would be laughing at the idiots once again for creating an incentiveless contest and saying such a set-up proves the ERC couldn't run a schit farm. We all know that to be true. So it's only fair that they take the hit now when people smirk - is this it?
AND...either way you look at a 'modification' - that modification will either seek to make League position less important again (big frown from AP and Top14) or it'll demand teams try harder in Europe at the expense of League (same conclusion and more frowns from AP and Top14). You see the legendary myth has always been that League is the Primary event and that Europe is just a nice earner if you're lucky enough to be at the business end. But League is King.

by HammerofThunor Thu 06 Nov 2014, 12:45 pm

SecretFly wrote:As for the Challenge Cup. Yes, it is simple. It's too late for 'modification' chat now. That's my point.

Is it? Haven't they changed the playoff for next season within the last few months? That suggests it's not too late for modification if all can agree on it.

by Sin é Thu 06 Nov 2014, 12:53 pm

Its doomed to failure. With little or no tv exposure (so no sponsorship), it will die sooner rather than later and at best clubs will be sending out their academies to play in it.

by HammerofThunor Thu 06 Nov 2014, 12:59 pm

Sin é wrote:Its doomed to failure. With little or no tv exposure (so no sponsorship), it will die sooner rather than later and at best clubs will be sending out their academies to play in it.

Like before?

by SecretFly Thu 06 Nov 2014, 1:25 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
SecretFly wrote:As for the Challenge Cup. Yes, it is simple. It's too late for 'modification' chat now. That's my point.

Is it? Haven't they changed the playoff for next season within the last few months? That suggests it's not too late for modification if all can agree on it.

The Try Again, Try Again path to perfection? Yeah, that's doable of course, Hammer. But it still comes with a smirk.

That's the bit my allusion to it being too late refers to. The idiots were balatantly called out as such a few months back - and they were identified as the ERC (the grouping that actually brought European rugby to the success levels that attracted an ambitious Broadcasting company into the mix in the first place).
They were the declared eejits. The butt of jokes and sneers. Now, I'm saying a little humble pie has landed on the laps of the present take-over bosses as they feel around in the dark for the best model to make money and competitiveness equally important. They're struggling to.

by The Great Aukster Thu 06 Nov 2014, 1:44 pm

Notch wrote:
quinsforever wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
quinsforever wrote:and maybe the pro12 unions shouldnt have been so quick to veto the 20th spot in the top tier going to the winner of the Amin. after all, PRl and LNR were strongly in favour.

quinsforever wrote:And easy to say no. Which is what AP and top14 clubs would do

Make up your mind!
One minute you're saying the PRL and LNR are strongly in favour of having a spot for the winner of the Challenge Cup and the next you're saying they would say no.
that kind of deliberate misquoting without context will get you banned.

apologise, or re-quote in context, or i will make one of the moderators get you to do it

Probably won't get you banned. Lets be serious. Just be nice to each other and so on.

As per quinsforever request, here are the full posts:

quinsforever wrote:well the one thing thats not going to happen is an expansion of the top tier cup. not after all the blood spilt getting it down to 20 and weeding out some of the weaker sides from the pro12.

and maybe the pro12 unions shouldnt have been so quick to veto the 20th spot in the top tier going to the winner of the Amin. after all, PRl and LNR were strongly in favour.

quinsforever wrote:Never going to happen. Because a pro 12 side is statistically as realistically very unlikely to win the Amlin.

It's easy to understand your point.

And easy to say no. Which is what AP and top14 clubs would do

Notch
Personally I can't see what difference including the whole text makes other than take up more room on the screen - the content is the same. The context is the whole thread and all the posts quoted are from the same thread so how are these in any way out of context? If it is a breach of the rules to point out inconsistencies in a poster's arguments then I fear for the future of this debating forum, and a life ban would be somewhat of a relief.

by beshocked Thu 06 Nov 2014, 2:16 pm

secretfly actually it was rugby league (super league) that the idea of the shield comes from not football.

I think you are exaggerating a bit. It's just one extra trophy I am talking about just to acknowledge a team that tops the league.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_Leader%27s_Shield

secretfly I wouldn't say any of the organisations involved are that competent but this is what we have now.

Months of arguing for a "solution" which it took most of us moments to suggest.

You talk about power as if it's only one party who craves it. Personally I think they are all as greedy as each other.

You want what you believe is best for Irish rugby - hence sneering at the new format.

Hanging onto coat tails was in vogue in the old Heineken Cup - it's now harder to do.

by SecretFly Thu 06 Nov 2014, 2:21 pm

Look, I appreciate I'm outnumbered on this one, beshocked. But I have a deep, deep aversion to too many trophies and goblets and cups and shiny things in one season in one sport. It's just me. I can't abide the sub divisions of sub-divisions - for me it turns sports into maths and number crunchers and pie-chart seekers love all the complexity. I don't. I like watching sport and hoping my side or sides win something. If they don't so be it. I'd prefer nothing to a bunch of consolation sub-cups or shields.

Like I say, that's just me. I don't think anything is solved by adding more and more layers of cupdom to a sport.

Oh and I sneer now histrionically to show how it's a two way sword and was always going to be. One year, the sneers are with the AP and Top14 heads, next year the Pro12 (or Irish, or Welsh or whatver) their turn to be in a position to sneer. Sneering was all the vogue through most of this year... it doesn't suddenly go away because the sneers of then got their way. The roleplay just changes places.

by quinsforever Thu 06 Nov 2014, 2:24 pm

Quotes without context are meaningless

I am, and always have been

100% in favour of a spot for the challenge cup winner
100^% in favour if a spot for the champs cup winner
100% in favour of each league keeping 6 auto spots which are unaffected by the above

I am 100% against the challenge cup winner (who is 90% likely to be English or french) getting a spot and displacing the 6th placed team from the AP or top14 every year

There is absolutely no inconsistency there. No matter how much you misquote me.

by beshocked Thu 06 Nov 2014, 2:34 pm

Secretfly as I said - I am just suggesting one extra minor trophy like they have in super league. It's not a massive overhaul. It's a consolation for people who want there to be some significance to topping the league.

Yes it is a two way thing. I agree that many of us have a holier than thou attitude because we think we know best - whether it's you, me or numerous others.

As I said before - my desire for a more competitive top tier and 2nd tier is not because I want to see the English and French clubs dominating proceedings, it's simply because I want to see a genuinely more competitive European top tier and 2nd tier - I felt the former system was broken and in need of a rehaul. Also I wanted to see a more competitive Pro12.

6,6,8 is what I wanted but the system is harsher than I wanted it to be.

by **Notch** Thu 06 Nov 2014, 4:09 pm

You're both being very dramatic. There'll be no bannings. Come on now. You've had your fun with the bannings.

by SecretFly Thu 06 Nov 2014, 4:31 pm

Notch wrote:You're both being very dramatic. There'll be no bannings. Come on now. You've had your fun with the bannings.

Oh I get it now!!!

Don't worry beshocked Hug

It's not us two he's on about. It's them two above us that's being very dramatic. Wink

We'd never be over-dramatic. Not us two Whistle

by Sin é Thu 06 Nov 2014, 5:38 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
Sin é wrote:Its doomed to failure. With little or no tv exposure (so no sponsorship), it will die sooner rather than later and at best clubs will be sending out their academies to play in it.

Like before?

It had a sponsor (Amlin) and a TV deal before (or at least they are than one game a weekend). So, no, unlike 'before'.

by HammerofThunor Thu 06 Nov 2014, 5:54 pm

The competitions are sponsored generally now rather than title sponsors. So how do you split out the sponsor money from the ERCC and ERCC? That would have no impact on it 'dying'.

by The Great Aukster Thu 06 Nov 2014, 7:01 pm

quinsforever wrote:Quotes without context are meaningless

I am, and always have been

100% in favour of a spot for the challenge cup winner
100^% in favour if a spot for the champs cup winner
100% in favour of each league keeping 6 auto spots which are unaffected by the above

I am 100% against the challenge cup winner (who is 90% likely to be English or french) getting a spot and displacing the 6th placed team from the AP or top14 every year

There is absolutely no inconsistency there. No matter how much you misquote me.

In the above post you say you are:
"100% in favour of a spot for the challenge cup winner"
and then:
"I am 100% against the challenge cup winner (who is 90% likely to be English or french) getting a spot and displacing the 6th placed team from the AP or top14 every year"

Having both statements in the same post, it is obvious that you don't actually mean the first statement as an absolute at all, but rather that it has the same proviso as the second one. In other words you are 100% in favour of a spot for the CC winner providing it doesn't displace the 6th placed team.

That's fine except in your early post you deride the PRO12 as vetoing the automatic CC spot as though they had an option. Considering the P12 unions had already given up 3 automatic qualifying places (in a Union-based competition) compared to zero from the French and English unions, do you seriously expect them to give up a fourth one as well?
Depriving the small European Unions of another qualifying place isn't the only way to create a space for the Challenge Cup winners as outlined above. The fact that there isn't a place indicates that none of the unions including the RFU/PRL and the FFR/LNR are prepared to give up anything to create it.

by TJ Thu 06 Nov 2014, 7:39 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Notch wrote:You're both being very dramatic. There'll be no bannings. Come on now. You've had your fun with the bannings.

Oh I get it now!!!

Don't worry beshocked It's not us two he's on about. It's them two above us that's being very dramatic. We'd never be over-dramatic. Not us two

Of course not - how very dare he?

by quinsforever Thu 06 Nov 2014, 8:24 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:
quinsforever wrote:Quotes without context are meaningless

I am, and always have been

100% in favour of a spot for the challenge cup winner
100^% in favour if a spot for the champs cup winner
100% in favour of each league keeping 6 auto spots which are unaffected by the above

I am 100% against the challenge cup winner (who is 90% likely to be English or french) getting a spot and displacing the 6th placed team from the AP or top14 every year

There is absolutely no inconsistency there. No matter how much you misquote me.

In the above post you say you are:
"100% in favour of a spot for the challenge cup winner"
and then:
"I am 100% against the challenge cup winner (who is 90% likely to be English or french) getting a spot and displacing the 6th placed team from the AP or top14 every year"

Having both statements in the same post, it is obvious that you don't actually mean the first statement as an absolute at all, but rather that it has the same proviso as the second one. In other words you are 100% in favour of a spot for the CC winner providing it doesn't displace the 6th placed team.

That's fine except in your early post you deride the PRO12 as vetoing the automatic CC spot as though they had an option. Considering the P12 unions had already given up 3 automatic qualifying places (in a Union-based competition) compared to zero from the French and English unions, do you seriously expect them to give up a fourth one as well?
Depriving the small European Unions of another qualifying place isn't the only way to create a space for the Challenge Cup winners as outlined above. The fact that there isn't a place indicates that none of the unions including the RFU/PRL and the FFR/LNR are prepared to give up anything to create it.

you cant pick and choose which points i make and then tell me they are inconsistent. all 3 points are part of the way the tournament should have been, and was proposed by the prl/lnr. i spelt them out individually so you could understand the maths of 6+6+6 +1 +1 =20.

in your wildest dreams can you imagine the prl/lnr now turning around and saying, actually lets take away our 6th spot and just let the winner of the Amlin have it? Shocked

the fact you are arguing this with me makes me think you didnt understand the implications of what you suggested, because to me they are straightforward. prl/nearly got the deal they wanted. why would they offer up a freebie that hurts their domestic league, when the pro12 is doing nothing of the kind?

by The Great Aukster Thu 06 Nov 2014, 10:03 pm

I can't imagine the PRL/LNR giving away anything, why break the habit of a lifetime? ... except that they wouldn't be giving away anything, that's why it might have had a chance. They had six teams each and they'd still have six teams each so even spelling it out individually as some are wont to do would indicate no change to the numbers.

Your last sentence indicates to me that perhaps you still haven't grasped the concept, because the same principle applies equally to all three leagues. Perhaps it is that sense of fairness that the PRL/LNR couldn't come to terms with?

by quinsforever Thu 06 Nov 2014, 11:27 pm

no it doesnt apply equally. if you bothered to look at the amlin you would see it is dominated by english teams at the top of 4 out of 5 groups, and there are in total (excluding London Welsh) 13 english and french teams that could win the competition, and at best 3 pro12 teams that could do so - although they are going to need to show significant improvement frankly. therefore, as is widely agreed its 90% likely that the almlin winner for the foreseeable future will come from england or france.

and teams who would hope to qualify by targetting 6th in their domestic league and the automatic qualifying places that are currently on offer, will absolutely not agree to lose that spot based on the outcome of a 1-off final that they are more than likely not involved in. will make a mockery of the domestic league's entry criteria to Europe.

show me an example of a single other professional sports competition where the winner of a lower tier competition actually DISPLACES a qualifier through the normal league mechanism. it doesnt happen. because its professional sport and you cant mess teams around like that. maybe in the amateur days you could, but not any more. there is money and prestige at stake.

by markb Fri 07 Nov 2014, 3:01 am

I suspect the reason why the Amlin winner doesn't get an automatic place is that the final is at the beginning of May and there are 2-3 rounds more of the leagues' normal season still to go after that, so if not gunning for a top spot and just happy to have that qualification they might not put full effort into their remaining games, potentially distorting the final league results for the rest of the clubs that are fighting for something.

The Amlin winner will most likely qualify anyway, so as usual probably a lot of huff and puff on here for nothing really, though I'm sure those doing so are enjoying yourselves. thumbsup

by SecretFly Fri 07 Nov 2014, 9:40 am

markb wrote:I suspect the reason why the Amlin winner doesn't get an automatic place is that the final is at the beginning of May and there are 2-3 rounds more of the leagues' normal season still to go after that, so if not gunning for a top spot and just happy to have that qualification they might not put full effort into their remaining games, potentially distorting the final league results for the rest of the clubs that are fighting for something.

:doh:So it's more an incentive to teams to keep trying? "We're not going to tell you what you qualify or don't qualify for until the end because we want you to be damn good sports and give each other a right good thrashing to the very end!" Yeah - that's a novel approach. Win something first and then find out what you won - The LuckyBagEuropeanRugbyChallengeCup.
Only problem with that premise is that the cat will be out of the bag the following year! So it's only a one year Cilla's Surprise Surprise Event. Next year, the teams will get back to Lazy because they'll know the score.

by quinsforever Fri 07 Nov 2014, 9:58 am

you missed his point.

if an amlin winner takes the 6th spot from the AP (assuming an english club wins), there may be all kinds of unintended consequences on the domestic league as a result.

markb, i dont agree that the winner of the amlin will usually qualify anyway in their domestic league. in the domestic league teams tend to consistently outperform that have either very large squads, or fewer international callups or both. exeter and glaws have had good starts to the season but do i think they will finish the AP in 3rd and 6th respectively? no. quins and leicester will ovetake both, imo. And neither would be my favourites to win a cup tie against full strength motivated Stade Francais if there were a Champs Cup place up for grabs.

in a 1-off cup match on may 2nd, there are no international conflicts so i dont think standings in domestic league are any kind of guarantee of results. especially if there is a Champions cup place up for grabs.

by markb Fri 07 Nov 2014, 6:31 pm

Stade Francais are 3rd in the Top14 at the moment and the way they've been playing domestically very likely to qualify by league position by the season's end even if they did aim to win the Amlin. The teams they've put out in the Amlin so far and having lost at home to NGD (whom Newcastle beat away the next week) I think it's clear where their focus is and will be though. Also, though they tend to do well week in week out I think SF have a mental weakness in big 1-off matches, they've lost numerous finals and knockouts in the last decade or so. There haven't been any notable additions to their squad since last season and despite having their stars available lost home and away to Wasps when a top tier place was up for grabs.

by hawalsh Fri 07 Nov 2014, 8:05 pm

quinsforever wrote:
hawalsh wrote:
quinsforever wrote:
hawalsh wrote:It's not elegance, it's a nepotistic fudge. How one team performs is not indicative of the league. If you truly believed that if the Challenge Cup winner has already qualified then the last spot should just go to the 'stronger' league based on the performance of its better sides, then you would give it to the league that produced the Champions winner, not the Challenge.

The competition rewards individual sides (not leagues) for their performance from the previous season (the latest time by which teams can realistically be comparatively judged). If you don't agree with that, then there is no point in giving the 20th spot to the Challenge Cup winner anyway.
lets be honest. the qualification process as is, is the absolute definition of a fudge. was the inelegant bastard child of an ugly, angry compromise.

i have always always believed that the format should have been 6/6/6 with 2 freebie spots that dont come out of a league's auto spots, for the winners of both competitions. have said so for 18months.

Something not being perfect is no reason to make it even less so.

Attributing spots to both winners doubles the issues of rewarding leagues instead of clubs when those winners would already have qualified by league position, resulting in lesser clubs riding their coattails instead of earning things for themselves in comparison to similar league ranking and potentially better clubs from the other leagues.

so you think a one off playoff match between two teams in different leagues (or three different leagues over two matches as is currently proposed) is a better measure of the relative strength and commitment to European competitions than who has won them in the past? No, because I've stated all along that play-offs should only occur if the winner has already qualified. In terms of the merit of one off matches in that instance, if it's good enough to judge the winner of the two competitions (and most others) then it should be good enough to judge who should get entry of the next best from each league. It would certainly tell us more about those sides than how a completely different team perfomed.

and do you really think in the AP or top14 that there is much of a gap between 6 and 7 in the league? thats pretty arrogant. It's not a matter of the difference between 6 and 7, it's that the benefiting club would not be any more demonstrably deserving than the similar placed sides from the other leagues. Clubs should be given a fair opportunity to make their own case and prove their worth. Also it could well be 8 from the same league if it provided both winners and the additional 6 as you are advocating.

as of now (you seem to like snapshots)
2014 glaws in 6th are 1 point ahead of Quins in 7th
2013 sale 6th were 8 points ahead of wasps in 7th, and it is sale who are getting scrubbed (wasps should have beaten Leinster)
2012 exeter 6th 6 points ahead of Bath 7th
2011 sale 6th 3 points ahead of LI 7th

my point being, there is very very little difference in quality between 6th and 7th in the AP, so to say as you did "lesser clubs riding their coattails" is offensive to put it mildly. so Glaws have a semi decent start to the season and suddenly everyone is riding on your coattails? get real. If a team finishes below another then they have achieved less and are lesser in that regard. Any given year the Challenge Cup winner could finish far higher than 6th if they've suddenly clicked or bought big or maybe new management, then the 7th and 8th placed sides would be even more lesser perfoming clubs than the one they benefited from.

the only way to compare leagues will be in 2 or 3 years time when the HC has settled down and we can see how the different leagues (and clubs with guaranteed spots by virtue of their union) perform against each other. you obviously missed these discussions the first time around, but myou should probably take a look at www.eurorugby.com and get a feel for how they rank teams across leagues before you get overexcited about Glaws. I'm not at all excited about Gloucester, I just believe that they currently look the most likely to win it based on comparative squad depth and how seriously they seem to be taking it. As I pointed out earlier in the thread the bookies also have them as favourites and are placing them to finish around 5th in the AP. I'm very much aware of what was discussed on the subject and how those rankings are formed, and it has next to no bearing on the fact that qualification is based solely on how clubs perform in the preceding season, that the organisers want to maintain that domestic fight each year from the initial premise of relative equality between the leagues, rewarding clubs not leagues and not giving handouts to clubs who didn't earn things directly.

by The Great Aukster Fri 07 Nov 2014, 10:05 pm

quinsforever wrote:no it doesnt apply equally. if you bothered to look at the amlin you would see it is dominated by english teams at the top of 4 out of 5 groups, and there are in total (excluding London Welsh) 13 english and french teams that could win the competition, and at best 3 pro12 teams that could do so - although they are going to need to show significant improvement frankly. therefore, as is widely agreed its 90% likely that the almlin winner for the foreseeable future will come from england or france.

and teams who would hope to qualify by targetting 6th in their domestic league and the automatic qualifying places that are currently on offer, will absolutely not agree to lose that spot based on the outcome of a 1-off final that they are more than likely not involved in. will make a mockery of the domestic league's entry criteria to Europe.

show me an example of a single other professional sports competition where the winner of a lower tier competition actually DISPLACES a qualifier through the normal league mechanism. it doesnt happen. because its professional sport and you cant mess teams around like that. maybe in the amateur days you could, but not any more. there is money and prestige at stake.

Are you suggesting the competition rules change depending on who happens to be top of the leagues from week to week - good luck with selling that to er... anyone. Last count there were a maximum of 6 English and 8 French in a 20 team Challenge competition which equates to 70% rather than 90, but then you have already assured us you know the maths. As for being "widely agreed" - i'd be interested to see the link to support that claim as even on this forum it could hardly be described as such.

It is interesting that you do not support the idea of displacing an AP/T14 League qualifier with a lower placed Challenge Cup winner, yet do support the notion of displacing a Pro12 League qualifier with a lower placed Challenge Cup winner. Obviously you struggle to see that inconsistency, but don't expect it to go unnoticed.

by quinsforever Sat 08 Nov 2014, 7:51 pm

aukster

13 of the teams in the challenge cup are english or french. 4 of the other teams are Rovigo, Bucarest, Connacht (who appear to have already waved the white flag saying they are focusing on 6th place in pro12) and Zebre. and the other three are embra, blues and dragons. i think 90% probablility of an engish or french win is conservative. all teams are not equal.

of course i dont support the idea of displacing an AP/top14 side. they only have 6 automatic qualifiers and they are 90% likely to provide the winner of the Challenge Cup and face the disruption of theri 6th placed league finisher effectively getting demoted. the pro12 has 7. that is the only inconsistency.

by The Great Aukster Sun 09 Nov 2014, 10:08 am

In the absence of any evidence to support your "widely agreed" assertion, the only statistic worth noting is that 2/3rds of the competition is made up of English and French teams. There are also teams in England and France who it could be argued that have already waved the white flag so there is nothing but subjective speculation to say what League the winner will come from especially on an ongoing basis.

BTW the most likely place that would be displaced wouldn't be a guaranteed one but the chance of the play-off spot. So say an AP team won the Amlin they would have a play-off game with the AP 7th placed team (if they had already qualified or were 7th they get a bye). They would then play the winner of the other play-off for the last qualification place. Same for every League.

the pro12 has 7. that is the only inconsistency.

I get it you can't accept that a European competition shouldn't necessarily have representatives from the major European Unions, but that has really been debated to death. You can only see one way of accommodating the Amlin winner at the PRO12's expense. There are others that would be far more equitable, but then the PRL/LNR don't seem interested in equality so it's hard to see this being adopted anytime soon.

by quinsforever Sun 09 Nov 2014, 1:06 pm

the only people making noises about the Challenge cup winner having a shot at entry into the Champions Cup are on these boards. I think we can safely ignore Jackman at Grenoble.

English clubs have no problem putting in a strong effort into the Challenge Cup without the motivation of a Challenge Cup. Embra too. Thats why these sides top their respective groups.

so who, besides Jackman precisely, is actually complaining about no qualifying spot for Challenge Cup winners? Because unless its a team that looks likely to win the Challenge Cup we can safely assume they are just making excuses for poor performance.

the pro12 and PRL and top14 seem perfectly happy with the current setup.

by wolfball Mon 10 Nov 2014, 5:35 pm

quinsforever wrote:the pro12 and PRL and top14 seem perfectly happy with the current setup.

by quinsforever Mon 10 Nov 2014, 10:02 pm

have you heard any of the pro12 sides complain about the fact they have 7 league qualifying spots to the Challenge Cup

no

didnt think so

anything else too add?

by SecretFly Mon 10 Nov 2014, 10:14 pm

quinsforever wrote:have you heard any of the pro12 sides complain about the fact they have 7 league qualifying spots to the Challenge Cup

no

didnt think so

anything else too add?

Who is to complain? There's four of them. They do their own talking. Wink

One of them speaks Italian, the others speak only vague English and one of them f**ks a lot in their English so......................... it's kinky but it ain't consensus Wink

by quinsforever Mon 10 Nov 2014, 10:24 pm

SecretFly wrote:
quinsforever wrote:have you heard any of the pro12 sides complain about the fact they have 7 league qualifying spots to the Challenge Cup

no

didnt think so

anything else too add?

Who is to complain? There's four of them. They do their own talking. One of them speaks Italian, the others speak only vague English and one of them f**ks a lot in their English so......................... it's kinky but it ain't consensus

Really? i am pretty sure there are 5 pro12 teams in the Challenge Cup.

feel free to correct me.

by SecretFly Mon 10 Nov 2014, 10:38 pm

Four Pro12ers. You know the old routine. Pan-National League. Four distinct voices. I told you we have more experience of running an ERCC event than you guys do before, quins. Wink

First rule of Pan-National Events is that people speak for themselves.

by Brennus Tue 11 Nov 2014, 12:49 am

Letting the winner have a Champions cup place won't change much. Half the French teams already in the Champions cup don't take it that seriously as it is.

by The Great Aukster Wed 28 Jan 2015, 10:39 pm

quinsforever wrote:no it doesnt apply equally. if you bothered to look at the amlin you would see it is dominated by english teams at the top of 4 out of 5 groups, and there are in total (excluding London Welsh) 13 english and french teams that could win the competition, and at best 3 pro12 teams that could do so - although they are going to need to show significant improvement frankly. therefore, as is widely agreed its 90% likely that the almlin winner for the foreseeable future will come from england or france.

and teams who would hope to qualify by targetting 6th in their domestic league and the automatic qualifying places that are currently on offer, will absolutely not agree to lose that spot based on the outcome of a 1-off final that they are more than likely not involved in. will make a mockery of the domestic league's entry criteria to Europe.

show me an example of a single other professional sports competition where the winner of a lower tier competition actually DISPLACES a qualifier through the normal league mechanism. it doesnt happen. because its professional sport and you cant mess teams around like that. maybe in the amateur days you could, but not any more. there is money and prestige at stake.

... still waiting to know who widely agreed it was 90% likely that the winner would come from England or France?

It's interesting that the playoff route is now being discussed as a means of entry into the Champions Cup - do you think the EPRC have read this thread?

by TJ Wed 28 Jan 2015, 10:53 pm

So when Embra win do we get one of the ap spots as we must be a ap team to win? Or have I misunderstood something here?

by Dubbelyew L Overate Wed 28 Jan 2015, 11:11 pm

TJ wrote:So when Embra win do we get one of the ap spots as we must be a ap team to win? Or have I misunderstood something here?

Nah, feck off, but shouldn't the Scottish Champions be in the Champions Cup by right. Who won the 1872 Cup?

by quinsforever Wed 28 Jan 2015, 11:27 pm

as usual i have not idea what Aukster is talking about.

pro12 have talked about if a pro12 side wins the Challenge Cup and doesnt automatically qualify for the Champions cup by virtue of pro12 league position, then they will be the side that automatically plays against the winner of 7th and 7th placed AP and top14 sides.

"playoff route" is the already agreed mechanism for deciding the 20th entrant to the Champs cup.

regarding your other question. bookmakers.
glaws 7/4
chiefs 9/4
london irish 4/1
embra 10/1
blues 12/1
connacht 14/1
dragons 16/1
newcastle 20/1

if you do some "simple maths" you can see that you can bet on a AP winner at avg 3.03/1 and a pro12 winner at avg 12.6/1

so according to the "market", the expectation of an english winner is 80.5%

when i made my statement that you quoted above, the french teams were higher in their groups too, hence why its a tad lower now.

by Guest Wed 28 Jan 2015, 11:29 pm

16/1 for Dragons. Easy money.

by dragon999 Wed 28 Jan 2015, 11:41 pm

i'll take that rev!

by TJ Wed 28 Jan 2015, 11:48 pm

10/1 for the might MFLs. cheap at half the price

by quinsforever Wed 28 Jan 2015, 11:52 pm

embra and chiefs would be my picks at those odds

who gets home semi finals? is it glaws and chiefs as highest on points and points diff, or are they at "neutral" grounds?

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