'Pointless' Challenge Cup unsustainable - Jackman

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Interesting comments by Grenoble coach Barnard Jackman about the Challenge Cup - just reinforces what we thought the French clubs' attitude to this non-competition is - give fringe players a run-out while the first team is rested for the Top 14

If we beat Edinburgh, irish will have a home semi final against the Dragons or Blues.

Not sure who's at home on the other side of the draw off the top of my head, but I do know I'll be sticking a few bob on us at 4/1,

Glaws/Conn v Exeter/Newcastle on the other side, and the bookies have Glaws at 40/17 and Exe at 11/4.

You can get Irish at 5/1 if you look around a bit.

So what do people make of this competition now the groups are finished?

From an Edinburgh point of view I think it is been exactly what we needed, and the reason we are now back in the hunt for a top 6 spot. Our league form was poor but we managed to beat Bordeaux away then Lyon at home, giving us some much needed confidence.

We beat London Welsh twice but failed to get a try bp (I think we're the only team not to this season!) but it kept us winning.

We lost away to Lyon but got a BP win at Bordeaux.

After our first 4 games we managed to go on a good run in the league, winning the 1872 cup and beating Connacht away - I don't think we would have done that if we were in the main competition getting badly beaten during the Euro break.

As for the quarters, if Edinburgh can beat London Irish away I would put us as favourites at home to the Blues or Dragons in the semis. After that, anything can happen.

Personally I think Gloucester or London Irish are favourites - unlikely to get in the Euro spots in the league this year, so this is their chance of getting something out of the season.

Edinburgh fan here. i still think its meaningless and a waste of time overall. Sure it got Edinburgh some weak teams to beat. So what. Edinburgh now have an issue in do they go all out for the cup or the league. its just a meaningless diversion for them that risk splitting their attention from the league.

TJ wrote:Edinburgh fan here.  i still think its meaningless and a waste of time overall.  Sure it got Edinburgh some weak teams to beat.  So what.  Edinburgh now have an issue in do they go all out for the cup or the league.  its just a meaningless diversion for them that risk splitting their attention from the league.

Maybe the winner should be qualified in the Champions cup, but he's right. Some times it's better to win against "average" teams in a weaker competition than playing in the better cup but being badly beaten.

shuren34 wrote:Maybe the winner should be qualified in the Champions cup, but he's right. Some times it's better to win against "average" teams in a weaker competition than playing in the better cup but being badly beaten.

Sometimes it's better.  Sometimes it isn't.  

What's better for Edinburgh right now is to put all their best energy into the last section of Pro12 games.  They're 7th.  They need to get to 6th.  6th is doable.  6th gets them to the Champions Cup, the Challenge Cup doesn't.
Meanwhile then - the following year - there you are;  you're then in a competition you might be seriously beaten in.  But for fans, for the Club and for the players, they all know that's where they all want to be.  No, it's often best to get beaten badly by a higher quality side than to think too much of yourself in beating a sub-standard side.

Every contest will always have the stronger sides and the weaker sides - the new Champions Cup is no different.  It had its cricket score games too after all the talk that the competition was designed specifically to end the gaping disparity between good sides and 'bad' sides.  Weakness will always be part of any contest and that's no reason at all why some sides should willingly rush off down a ladder to play sides of lesser standard.  The money - sponsorship, player interest, increased player buying potential, bigger fanbase  - is at the top.  That's the goal for any ambitious side.

TJ wrote:Edinburgh fan here.  i still think its meaningless and a waste of time overall.  Sure it got Edinburgh some weak teams to beat.  So what.  Edinburgh now have an issue in do they go all out for the cup or the league.  its just a meaningless diversion for them that risk splitting their attention from the league.

So you suggesting Edinburgh should do what you lambast the French for and not care about it?

No - what I am saying is the splitting of their priorities could harm them in the long run. What I would have done is simply not entered at all if I was in charge of the team or played a reserve / under 23 team and made it clear from the start thats what we were doing. Its a little different anyway not to care about a meaningless second rank tournament than the european cup.

TJ wrote:No - what I am saying is the splitting of their priorities could harm them in the long run.  What I would have done is simply not entered at all if I was in charge of the team or played a reserve / under 23 team and made it clear from the start thats what we were doing.  Its a little different anyway not to care about a meaningless second rank tournament than the european cup.

TJ as an Embra season ticket holders I disagree. I've enjoyed our European games this season, apart from LW at Murrayfield when we were dire. If we can get a home semi against a Welsh team that will create some interest and get a few fans along who normally only attend the 1872 game. So all good as far as I'm concerned.

Downtick; away games not on Tele.

Unlike the killjoy above, if we are in the Challenge Cup next year - and i truly fear we may be, I hope we go all out for it. It is a proper competition and most clubs have very little chance of any decent silverware.

+1 on that LT.

Justified sinner - I have watched some away games on tele ( pirate feeds

I stand by what I have always said - its a pointless competition - you are not measuring yourself against the best. I agree the comp can produce decent rugby but thats not the point its also a distraction from the real business of the league and this may well come back to haunt Edinburgh as players tire and get injured. We lose a couple of important players in pointless matches in this comp and thus miss out on the real thing next year - its more than possible.

its a pointless waste of time and could cost Edinburgh dearly in the long run

RDW_Scotland wrote:So what do people make of this competition now the groups are finished?

From an Edinburgh point of view I think it is been exactly what we needed, and the reason we are now back in the hunt for a top 6 spot. Our league form was poor but we managed to beat Bordeaux away then Lyon at home, giving us some much needed confidence.

We beat London Welsh twice but failed to get a try bp (I think we're the only team not to this season!) but it kept us winning.

We lost away to Lyon but got a BP win at Bordeaux.

After our first 4 games we managed to go on a good run in the league, winning the 1872 cup and beating Connacht away - I don't think we would have done that if we were in the main competition getting badly beaten during the Euro break.

As for the quarters, if Edinburgh can beat London Irish away I would put us as favourites at home to the Blues or Dragons in the semis.  After that, anything can happen.

Personally I think Gloucester or London Irish are favourites - unlikely to get in the Euro spots in the league this year, so this is their chance of getting something out of the season.

That's certainly often been the case for English sides in the past, how far they go in the competition might not be overly important to them, but struggling or meandering in the lower mid-table domestically and the European break gives them a space to rally their energies, maybe try a few different things under less pressure, put some play and performances together, immediately springboarding them to better things in the league.

Last year the three English sides that topped their pools in the Challenge all went on to qualify for the Champions this year.

All gppd from my point of view. If we dont have the squad to be able to compete effectively for the challenge cup and the league, then what is the point on qualifying for the champions cup anyway??? So our squad can disregard the very competition we have tried so hard to get into, in favour of trying to scrape 6th again. Then we become pointless clubs who'll never win the top prize but will always sacrifice everything else just to be an also ran in it.

Challenge cup has given the players much needed wins - against similar level sides (not pub sides!). It has given the fans a chance to see some winning rugby, given our coach a chance to tinker his squad and game plan, possibly give the fans a home semi-final to attract gpod numbers, and goven us a bit of a shot at a trophy. I hope the squad relish this chance.

If we are fighting till the end in the challenge cup, and make 6th then great, mabye we will be ready to compete effectively in two comps next season. If we sack off the challenge cup as we arent good enough to do both then whats the point of qualifying anyway??

The old '4th is the priority' in football is pathetic in my view. It really sticks two fingers up at the fans. You are rarely in a competition with a chance of winning so take the opportunity. Otherwise we should just have a toulon/clermont play off in september and not bother with any other pesky pointless rugby matches getting in the way the rest of the year.

Rant over, sorry! It really nips my head!

Well I can see now why the Pro12 MUST be ring fenced. Guys like TJ would clearly drop their team if they ever got relegated. Play the best or go home. Rugby needs more fans like that.

No French Clubs in the 1/4 finals tells its own story. Cant help feeling that the procedure for deciding home semi finals in both the Challenge cup is very outdated! I know I'm biased but I don't see its fair that Exeter will be away in the semi final purely because the 1/4 final draw has lined it up that way

I don't think any of the teams would complain about the Semi finals being held at a neutral venue with a increased capacity.

I'm not sure about having a semi final at a neutral venue, as the location of the venue would very much decide how much support each team would have.

If Edinburgh beat London Irish I'm fairly confident we could get up to 15000 for the semi final at Murrayfield.  If it was anywhere else there would probably only be a couple of thousand Edinburgh fans at most going to it.

From a Dragons point of view it has given our young team some form and confidence which has started to manifest itself in the league (away victory over the Blues and a good performance against Ospreys)

I am not overly bothered that the French do not take it too seriously if I am honest

They manage to do it in football but then I guess there are more fans to go around.....

Tiger/Chief wrote:They manage to do it in football but then I guess there are more fans to go around.....

Significantly more fans to go around.

Given the competition isn't as prestigious as the main one I just don't think you'd get the demand at a neutral venue - both from fans willing to travel, but also local neutrals just going along for the game. At least making a draw for the semis you guarantee decent crowds because it is at one of the teams participating.

HammerofThunor wrote:Well I can see now why the Pro12 MUST be ring fenced. Guys like TJ would clearly drop their team if they ever got relegated. Play the best or go home. Rugby needs more fans like that.

Shame none of that is what I have said. i am in favour of addi9ng a second division to the PRO 12, I would never drop my team, I see no point in playing a mickey mouse cup that is meaningless apart from giving us easy wins.

RDW_Scotland wrote:I'm not sure about having a semi final at a neutral venue, as the location of the venue would very much decide how much support each team would have.

If Edinburgh beat London Irish I'm fairly confident we could get up to 15000 for the semi final at Murrayfield.  If it was anywhere else there would probably only be a couple of thousand Edinburgh fans at most going to it.

I would doubt that - but you could be right. the floating Edinburgh fan is there - but very fickle No interest in these gmes so far.

RDW_Scotland wrote:I'm not sure about having a semi final at a neutral venue, as the location of the venue would very much decide how much support each team would have.

If Edinburgh beat London Irish I'm fairly confident we could get up to 15000 for the semi final at Murrayfield.  If it was anywhere else there would probably only be a couple of thousand Edinburgh fans at most going to it.

I'm actually of the opposite opinion currently, probably because as it stands if my team as 3rd seeds win the home quarter our reward is to play away at someone else's ground in the semi. Some reward! So i'd vote for a neutral semi final venue. If it was likely we'd get a home semi then I'd probably be in agreement with you

TJ wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Well I can see now why the Pro12 MUST be ring fenced. Guys like TJ would clearly drop their team if they ever got relegated. Play the best or go home. Rugby needs more fans like that.

Shame none of that is what I have said.  i am in favour of addi9ng a second division to the PRO 12, I would never drop my team, I see no point in playing a mickey mouse cup that is meaningless apart from giving us easy wins.

Did you not say that since your team did not perform well enough to qualify for the top tier competition, where you play the best teams, you had no interest in it? What is relegation, other than not performing well enough to qualify for a competition where you play the best teams?

LondonTiger wrote:Unlike the killjoy above, if we are in the Challenge Cup next year - and i truly fear we may be, I hope we go all out for it. It is a proper competition and most clubs have very little chance of any decent silverware.

Interesting.  If that scenario happens, I'll watch how the mood unfolds over that year Tiger, and where exactly your preferences might shift and shape to as the season progresses

But again, nobody who is a realist can escape the solid truth (a truth that incidently was put up to the Pro12 in blunt terms during the negotiations)  - and that truth is that no side is perfect or has enough ammo to be perfect.  Some sides (particularly in France) can get close to perfection in rugby terms, in that they possibly have the makings of three potent teams in the one squad due to generous buying capacity.  For them I suppose life really is easier.  And with the sense of ease wouid also come the confidence that such a team would do pretty damn ok in two contests running simultaneously - a League and one of the European contests.

Other - more human - sides don't have the luxury of such a feeling.  They know the old dynamics of trying to spread yourself thinly over a slice of toast!  Too thin and the flavour of the butter is lost completely.  Most sides in England, and in the Pro12, and indeed many in Top14 too, have perhaps at best the quality in a squad that would at most get to one and a half teams.  So it's always virtually one ideal team and perhaps five or six other guys that could slide in and allow for some injury or bad form on the part of the mainstays.  But that's it for most of us.  And from that reality, what do you want to accomplish?

That's where everyone's opinions diverge to an extent, I reckon.  Some say you go out to win the competition you have the best chance to win.  In the case of Edinburgh that would be a toss up between Pro12 and the Challenge Cup.  And people would judge that their best chance is to win the Challenge.  Therefore, go for that.  Put all your eggs in that basket, hope for the best and be prepared to accept any consequences that might materialise in Pro12 - ie, falling down the ladder and ending up close to the bottom as you save best plays and best players for a heavy attack on Challenge Cup.

Others, like me, can't see the logic in that thinking.  The ideal, in this modern age of professional rugby that we all like to think we're experts in ) - the ideal is to try hardest in the highest ranked contests so that MONEY gets attracted to you, so that things like Sponsorship and quality players begin to look your way, so that you give yourself the best chance of going up a ladder at a steady pace rather than being always on the bottom step, falling on and off it through season after season and attracting no serious interest from either quality players or big sponsors.
So.......... how do you get to the Highest Quality Contest where all the best money is?  Well, it's through League,isn't it?  That was the morality tale we all heard about all through last year.  The League must be primary entry point for sides into the Highest Ranked European contest.  And the rewards are big.  Try your damndest in your League and reap the rewards for the efforts made by getting into a top 6 and getting a Golden Ticket to the Champions Cup.  
In this scenario, League is prioritised as it should be - fans don't feel cheated in seeing their sides coming out and yawning through games, and then the Champions Cup benefits in kind by having sides in it that know how to be ruthless and purposeful and mean.  Happiness all round.  
And the only way that cycle works is to save your best work for League and the Champions Cup.  Saving your best for the Challenge Cup with limited resources, presumes that you're going to get yourself into a vicious cycle soon enough by keeping yourself on the bottom steps of your League season after season. You therefore potentially consign yourself to always being a Challenger in the Challenge Cup (at the same time as your best players are siphoned off bit by bit by the rich clubs in need of some good men and diluting further your abilities to fight in either contest.)  

With Limitations (and most of us have them), you're forced to prioritise, it isn't a choice, it's a necessity.  I'd suggest the priority should be to do as well as you can in the competition designed to rise your overall hopes and potential - that's League.  I thought that was the ideal all round?  I'll choose to believe I'm not hearing some people now say that League position should be forfeited in preference for a European Contest.  That would be back to square one for all of us...................

SecretFly wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Unlike the killjoy above, if we are in the Challenge Cup next year - and i truly fear we may be, I hope we go all out for it. It is a proper competition and most clubs have very little chance of any decent silverware.

Interesting.  If that scenario happens, I'll watch how the mood unfolds over that year Tiger, and where exactly your preferences might shift and shape to as the season progresses

But again, nobody who is a realist can escape the solid truth (a truth that incidently was put up to the Pro12 in blunt terms during the negotiations)  - and that truth is that no side is perfect or has enough ammo to be perfect.  Some sides (particularly in France) can get close to perfection in rugby terms, in that they possibly have the makings of three potent teams in the one squad due to generous buying capacity.  For them I suppose life really is easier.  And with the sense of ease wouid also come the confidence that such a team would do pretty damn ok in two contests running simultaneously - a League and one of the European contests.

Other - more human - sides don't have the luxury of such a feeling.  They know the old dynamics of trying to spread yourself thinly over a slice of toast!  Too thin and the flavour of the butter is lost completely.  Most sides in England, and in the Pro12, and indeed many in Top14 too, have perhaps at best the quality in a squad that would at most get to one and a half teams.  So it's always virtually one ideal team and perhaps five or six other guys that could slide in and allow for some injury or bad form on the part of the mainstays.  But that's it for most of us.  And from that reality, what do you want to accomplish?

That's where everyone's opinions diverge to an extent, I reckon.  Some say you go out to win the competition you have the best chance to win.  In the case of Edinburgh that would be a toss up between Pro12 and the Challenge Cup.  And people would judge that their best chance is to win the Challenge.  Therefore, go for that.  Put all your eggs in that basket, hope for the best and be prepared to accept any consequences that might materialise in Pro12 - ie, falling down the ladder and ending up close to the bottom as you save best plays and best players for a heavy attack on Challenge Cup.

Others, like me, can't see the logic in that thinking.  The ideal, in this modern age of professional rugby that we all like to think we're experts in ) - the ideal is to try hardest in the highest ranked contests so that MONEY gets attracted to you, so that things like Sponsorship and quality players begin to look your way, so that you give yourself the best chance of going up a ladder at a steady pace rather than being always on the bottom step, falling on and off it through season after season and attracting no serious interest from either quality players or big sponsors.
So.......... how do you get to the Highest Quality Contest where all the best money is?  Well, it's through League,isn't it?  That was the morality tale we all heard about all through last year.  The League must be primary entry point for sides into the Highest Ranked European contest.  And the rewards are big.  Try your damndest in your League and reap the rewards for the efforts made by getting into a top 6 and getting a Golden Ticket to the Champions Cup.  
In this scenario, League is prioritised as it should be - fans don't feel cheated in seeing their sides coming out and yawning through games, and then the Champions Cup benefits in kind by having sides in it that know how to be ruthless and purposeful and mean.  Happiness all round.  
And the only way that cycle works is to save your best work for League and the Champions Cup.  Saving your best for the Challenge Cup with limited resources, presumes that you're going to get yourself into a vicious cycle soon enough by keeping yourself on the bottom steps of your League season after season.  You therefore potentially consign yourself to always being a Challenger in the Challenge Cup (at the same time as your best players are siphoned off bit by bit by the rich clubs in need of some good men and diluting further your abilities to fight in either contest.)  

With Limitations (and most of us have them), you're forced to prioritise, it isn't a choice, it's a necessity.  I'd suggest the priority should be to do as well as you can in the competition designed to rise your overall hopes and potential - that's League.  I thought that was the ideal all round?  I'll choose to believe I'm not hearing some people now say that League position should be forfeited in preference for a European Contest.  That would be back to square one for all of us...................

Excellent post

You are of course correct - from a professional business point of view, you 100% have to focus on the league and get into the top competition, because that's where the money is (although am I right in thinking the SRU get the same amount of money regardless of whether both qualify?).

When you think about the rugby side though, things become more complicated.  Let's face it, how many teams can realistically win the Champions Cup just now? 2 or 3 at best out of the 20 that took part.  When you look at all the other clubs, how many of those could realistically win their domestic league? From looking at the teams this year I reckon around 60%.

My point being, around 50% of the teams that take part in the top tournament are not going to win any trophy - domestic or European - any time soon. So as much as they'll be making money, what do they have to show for it, and what do the fans have - years of following their team and no trophies! They are the Tottenhams of the rugby world - do pretty well each year, high up in the league, maybe qualify for Europe and go on a cup run, but they never actually win anything!

So, from an entirely rugby point of view, I would be absolutely delighted if Edinburgh won the Champions cup.  It means we have won a proper tournament, and the fans will have experienced knock-out quarter and semi finals and a grand final with all the buzz and excitement. It would literally be the first time us Edinburgh fans have won anything (excluding the 1872 cup), and there's a lot of people who have been following Edinburgh since we were formed in the professional era!

The million dollar question is though, would I rather we won the Champions cup this season or made the Top 6....  

I wouldn't frown on an Edinburgh supporter wanting SOMETHING!!!/ANYTHING in silver to give them a belief that support represents something tangible - something to smile and laugh and have a bloody good weekend on.  The feeling of 'winning' is heady and I wouldn't deny any fan those feelings (unless playing against them in a final )

But I'm thinking long term, RDW.  I'm thinking what would be in the best interests long term for Edinburgh?  

I think sliding back up the Pro12 ladder would be that best interest (and that in and of itself also gives that other reward on a plate - participation in the Big Daddy European event)

- and let no fan tell you, that either have or had an interest in that competition, that they would somehow have prefered being in the Challenge Cup where their chances of winning silverware might have been better.  Munster fans won't say it - Leicester fans won't say it.  Fans want to be where the action is and, even if you don't win it, the real buzz is in the main European contest.  And getting there should be the target for any side, if it's a real target - and given Edinburgh are 7th in Pro12 - that real target is there.  

You talk about money being spread.  That's competition money.  When I'm talking about funding I'm talking about the part that relies on the 'flies' that reputation and position attracts - the higher you get in any competition, the more sponsorship money you can demand, the more interested better players have in you.  Position becomes self perpetuating to an extent and no ammount of 'equal shares' from the competition will change that dynamic.  Better sides will get better deals and more money than weaker sides from many sources that are not linked to specific competition fees etc.

So, I'd have no problem with Edinburgh supporters saying they've had enough of being also rans - they have a real chance of winning something this season and they'd like to see how it feels.  Great - then go for it.  But it's the cycle that you might get into that Edinburgh fans should be wary of.  Win the Challenge Cup this year at the expence of Pro12 positioning and it's the Challenge Cup again next season.  Okay, maybe two years of winning that might be okay too.  But the next year, Pro12 competitiveness has been sacrificed again due to limited resources and you're back in Challenge Cup again.

Then ambitious players get nervous..."is this how the management are going to keep doing this?"  "I want to experience the bigger competition"  "I'm good enough to be better than this and if Edinburgh don't have the ambition to rise higher then I'll have to leave and find a club that does". And sponsors call the shots: "Well, like we'd pay what you want if you were higher up the ladder. We need exposure and you're not giving us enough of it in the Challenge cup". So crtain things might begin to unravel if the eyes get too fixated on winning the Challenge over too many seasons.

That's the vicious circle I'm talking about.  A few Challenge Cup wins might begin the crumbling of the structures that allow Edinburgh even to challenge in Challenge cup itself.  You potentially get caught in a trap you can't dig yourself out of and, all of a sudden, the French sides that don't care about the Challenge cup begin to win the thing even using their reserve players because they still have enough resources and you don't.

The long term view is how I always look at my rugby, RDW. I'm just asking for caution. Weigh up pros and cons over a number of seasons, not just the one.

Well said secret fly. Thats Edinburgh's problem in a nutshell. Do we settle for big fish in a small pond or do we want to swim in the big pond?

RDW - I'd be delighted if Edinburgh won or even did well in a proper tournament. Unfortunately the minnows cup is not a proper tournament.

My opinion of course Sorry about the fish analogies - its Salmond and Sturgeon who have rotted my brain ;-)

I'm a Connacht supporter and I hate the effort we have put into the Challenge Cup, as it has stretched us too (potentially) thin to capitalize on our great league form up to recently. As the French and English gave up nothing in the recent european reshuffle it has long been my view that the Challenge Cup winner should take one of their auto-places; instead we have a super ring around the rosey setup giving the french/english as many extra chances as possible to get more teams in the big cup. My view as a Connacht supporter is we must become ireland's 3rd best province and fulfill our destiny to be the last Irish province to win the proper Euro cup (or The Tesla Space International Eurasian Cup of Inter-planet all Stars it will be known as by the time we win it... 2099)

If Connacht had been in the Champions Cup it would have affected their domestic campaign more I guess? Certainly seemed to last season.