'Pointless' Challenge Cup unsustainable - Jackman

by brennomac Fri 31 Oct 2014, 18:04

First topic message reminder :

Interesting comments by Grenoble coach Barnard Jackman about the Challenge Cup - just reinforces what we thought the French clubs' attitude to this non-competition is - give fringe players a run-out while the first team is rested for the Top 14

by **Notch** Sat 01 Nov 2014, 23:26

LondonTiger wrote:Hell yeah, expand the top competition to all teams. I mean I am sure die hard Munster fans (and TV execs) would love a group of Munster, London Welsh, Oyonnax and Treviso.

I'm a die hard Ulster fan and I would love that because I love variety and I love it when it matters to the players. Thats why I suggested it. You could put out the All Blacks and I would not like it if it was a training game environment. And you could put out Ballynahinch and I would love it if it mattered. And I would expect us to beat both teams regardless of the intensity they played at. Thats what being an Ulster fan means for me.

Now thats just one mans opinion. But you're kind of speaking for Munster fans there and assuming they want what you want. If they wanted exactly what you want they'd be you!

I dare you to ask me if I care about what a TV executive thinks. Ask me if I care what the gaping black hole in the world that is London thinks. I have no respect for TV executives and I have no respect for the City of London. I'm making an assumption that they're based in London. Correct me if I'm wrong because it would totally invalidate my entire point. So tell me they're based in Slough, or Belfast, or Liverpool or somewhere else where the people who they perceive as the poor people are in charge of things. But somehow, I don't think I'm wrong.

So I'm never going to frame this debate in terms of what TV executives want. What they want is their television stations to tell people what they want.

I'm sorry if that came across as aggressive. Because you're just like me. You're a rugby fan, you're passionate, you love, you live etc. You are not the reason I'm angry. But I just feel like... don't conflate Munster fans desires with TV executives desires. They might want the same things but they want them for very different reasons.

And yes, I will take curry with that for the chip on my shoulder. Cheers

by quinsforever Sat 01 Nov 2014, 23:34

The Great Aukster wrote:
quinsforever wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
quinsforever wrote:well the one thing thats not going to happen is an expansion of the top tier cup. not after all the blood spilt getting it down to 20 and weeding out some of the weaker sides from the pro12.

and maybe the pro12 unions shouldnt have been so quick to veto the 20th spot in the top tier going to the winner of the Amin. after all, PRl and LNR were strongly in favour.

The PRO12 weren't quick to veto anything - the whole story is that the PRO12 were the only ones giving up their representation so why would they give up yet another place?

The answer is simple - whichever club wins the Challenge Cup should take a Champion's Cup place from their League's quota.
it was a bit more complicated than that i think.

lots of people are unhappy that their teams are in the Amlin for the first time. my team love it. we are always happy to try to win silverware. if others dont thats fine. everything will calm down eventually. teething grumbles.

Lots of people are unhappy? That perhaps should read lots of PRO12 people are unhappy. AP people have no change so why would they be unhappy all of a sudden? Perhaps the PRO12 teams should feel flattered that the Amlin competition wanted them so much to give some kudos, but more likely they are moving on to focus on competitions where winning means something rather than being best of the rest.

If you plant a dandelion it's never going to become an orchid - some people like dandelions but they don't have the same cache as an orchid. Each to their own.

you do realise the irony here Notch?

this is how most english fans, players and owners viewed the attitude of Rabo sides to their own league. given that they only really cared about the heiny Cup.

sadly, that still seems to be the case if the Amlin isnt worth bothering about! however from the perspective of english and french clubs, at least that means that the Rabo is actually a properly "competitive" now in the sense that there are real consequences and benefits depending where one finishes.

by The Great Aukster Sat 01 Nov 2014, 23:53

quinsforever wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
quinsforever wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
quinsforever wrote:well the one thing thats not going to happen is an expansion of the top tier cup. not after all the blood spilt getting it down to 20 and weeding out some of the weaker sides from the pro12.

and maybe the pro12 unions shouldnt have been so quick to veto the 20th spot in the top tier going to the winner of the Amin. after all, PRl and LNR were strongly in favour.

The PRO12 weren't quick to veto anything - the whole story is that the PRO12 were the only ones giving up their representation so why would they give up yet another place?

The answer is simple - whichever club wins the Challenge Cup should take a Champion's Cup place from their League's quota.
it was a bit more complicated than that i think.

lots of people are unhappy that their teams are in the Amlin for the first time. my team love it. we are always happy to try to win silverware. if others dont thats fine. everything will calm down eventually. teething grumbles.

Lots of people are unhappy? That perhaps should read lots of PRO12 people are unhappy. AP people have no change so why would they be unhappy all of a sudden? Perhaps the PRO12 teams should feel flattered that the Amlin competition wanted them so much to give some kudos, but more likely they are moving on to focus on competitions where winning means something rather than being best of the rest.

If you plant a dandelion it's never going to become an orchid - some people like dandelions but they don't have the same cache as an orchid. Each to their own.
you do realise the irony here Notch?

this is how most english fans, players and owners viewed the attitude of Rabo sides to their own league. given that they only really cared about the heiny Cup.

sadly, that still seems to be the case if the Amlin isnt worth bothering about! however from the perspective of english and french clubs, at least that means that the Rabo is actually a properly "competitive" now in the sense that there are real consequences and benefits depending where one finishes.

QF, thanks for the discourtesy of using my post and not addressing me directly - I'll take it you either cannot deal with the idea of letting the Amlin winner in by losing a HEC league place or don't understand the concept?

Cup, plate, bowl, shield. Dress it up whatever way you like but the Cup is the only one that matters to the public. How many people can name the last Amlin winner?

by **Notch** Sun 02 Nov 2014, 00:15

quinsforever wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
quinsforever wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
quinsforever wrote:well the one thing thats not going to happen is an expansion of the top tier cup. not after all the blood spilt getting it down to 20 and weeding out some of the weaker sides from the pro12.

and maybe the pro12 unions shouldnt have been so quick to veto the 20th spot in the top tier going to the winner of the Amin. after all, PRl and LNR were strongly in favour.

The PRO12 weren't quick to veto anything - the whole story is that the PRO12 were the only ones giving up their representation so why would they give up yet another place?

The answer is simple - whichever club wins the Challenge Cup should take a Champion's Cup place from their League's quota.
it was a bit more complicated than that i think.

lots of people are unhappy that their teams are in the Amlin for the first time. my team love it. we are always happy to try to win silverware. if others dont thats fine. everything will calm down eventually. teething grumbles.

Lots of people are unhappy? That perhaps should read lots of PRO12 people are unhappy. AP people have no change so why would they be unhappy all of a sudden? Perhaps the PRO12 teams should feel flattered that the Amlin competition wanted them so much to give some kudos, but more likely they are moving on to focus on competitions where winning means something rather than being best of the rest.

If you plant a dandelion it's never going to become an orchid - some people like dandelions but they don't have the same cache as an orchid. Each to their own.
you do realise the irony here Notch?

this is how most english fans, players and owners viewed the attitude of Rabo sides to their own league. given that they only really cared about the heiny Cup.

sadly, that still seems to be the case if the Amlin isnt worth bothering about! however from the perspective of english and french clubs, at least that means that the Rabo is actually a properly "competitive" now in the sense that there are real consequences and benefits depending where one finishes.

If you're calling me a hypocrite I whole-heartedly agree. Even though you've clearly got me mixed up with The Great Aukster!

But the Rabo was either more or less competitive before hand. I don't care. What I really hate is the idea that the London press and the PRL are sitting around patting themselves on the back for making that change happen. There's no debate at all. It's not has the league gotten more competitive in an op-ed piece (I have not noticed a difference.) It's this is the received knowledge that is out there about this and we haven't thought of questioning it. Consume. Do you these people really think we believe they give a stuff about the Pro12? That that was even a part of their intention? Maybe they really do think they were doing us a favour when they insisted we very slowly agree to be being mugged. Maybe thats how they're okay with it. We did it for everyone!

What I imagine Bruce Craig does for fun:

Let's put it like this. I don't care what English fans or TV broadcasters or the PRL think about how competitive our league is, how competitive it was and why. For the same reason I can't make myself watch any of the English league whatsoever. A match between two English teams is the most boring thing in the world to me, I never watch that, and now it happens much more often in this format. The bottom line? The only interest I have in English Rugby is in us beating it. The only interest I have in English rugby having a say in how we run things in our league is as a trigger for my gag reflex.

And I like you, quins, because you feel the same thing back. Love the mutual contempt we share Hug

by SecretFly Sun 02 Nov 2014, 00:18

quinsforever wrote: the Rabo is actually a properly "competitive" now in the sense that there are real consequences and benefits depending where one finishes.

There's always consequences.
Consequences of constantly trying to beat top French sides that are stuffed with better paid players and endless budgets to buy them.

That's a 'consequence' of participation in Europe that always questions the efficacy of the all too easy word 'competitive'.

But no problemo there for AP. Nothing wrong with a side having a substantially bigger budget than the guys they play against in their pool.
Afterall, it's the model of Premiership football; - top clubs forever buying and rebuying their eternity at the top of their League. That's the natural meritocracy of blank chequebook 'fairness' - the ability to buy titles and 'silverware' and to outbid your opponent rather than outplay them on the field.

And it's of course the universal future ideal to be wished for in some Rugby circles - thus the pointed AP silence concerning the continuing blatant advantages that top French sides enjoy in ERCC.

by hawalsh Sun 02 Nov 2014, 03:41

Like most, I think that the 20th spot should automatically go to the Challenge Cup winner (currently they get their league's place in the play-off if they haven't already qualified for the competition by league position). However, I'd wager that this and most years' winners will already have qualified by league position. Certainly from an English perspective historically teams doing well in the Challenge usually acts as a springboard for the league (Bath, Sale & Wasps topped their Challenge Cup pools last year, with Bath the losing finalist, and all three are in the Champions this year).

So what would happen then? Just giving it directly to the next team in their league is in no way earnt by the benefiting club. You could give it to the losing finalist, but what if they've already qualified as well (as Bath did last year)? Do you then go to the semi-finalists, which one?

It's in the instance of an already qualified winner that I think the play-offs would be the correct solution, and in a mistaken manner what will transpire anyway, though I'd like to see a rule change to make sure.

by des Sun 02 Nov 2014, 07:20

Most Edinburgh fans I know are fairly happy with it. Can't speak for the other pro 12 fans but you might be surprised.

by The Great Aukster Sun 02 Nov 2014, 07:29

hawalsh wrote:Like most, I think that the 20th spot should automatically go to the Challenge Cup winner (currently they get their league's place in the play-off if they haven't already qualified for the competition by league position). However, I'd wager that this and most years' winners will already have qualified by league position. Certainly from an English perspective historically teams doing well in the Challenge usually acts as a springboard for the league (Bath, Sale & Wasps topped their Challenge Cup pools last year, with Bath the losing finalist, and all three are in the Champions this year).

So what would happen then? Just giving it directly to the next team in their league is in no way earnt by the benefiting club. You could give it to the losing finalist, but what if they've already qualified as well (as Bath did last year)? Do you then go to the semi-finalists, which one?

It's in the instance of an already qualified winner that I think the play-offs would be the correct solution, and in a mistaken manner what will transpire anyway, though I'd like to see a rule change to make sure.

No need for any of that Hawalsh. The Amlin winner qualifies irrespective of where they finish in their League. If they hadn't already qualified then they replace the lowest qualifier from their League.

by Dubbelyew L Overate Sun 02 Nov 2014, 08:15

The Great Aukster wrote: Cup, plate, bowl, shield. Dress it up whatever way you like but the Cup is the only one that matters to the public. How many people can name the last Amlin winner?

The Challenge Cup mattered enough to 100,000+ members of the public in the last fortnight to delve into their wallets, get off their arses and support their teams. A fair wodge of those cared enough to delve very deeply into their wallets and dedicate a whole weekend to supporting their team overseas, creating memories, forging friendships and probably nursing stupendous hangovers at the end of it.

That compares to about 240,000 for the Champions Cup. Who knows how many non-aligned rugby supporters there are out there - the supporters of Rotherham and Albi and Colwyn Bay, the committee of London Nigerians RFC, the Georgian folk whose team misssed out on playing in the Challenge Cup by a whisker.

They're all the public and you dare to speak for them all - that's bold.

Don't include me though - I don't care for the Champions Cup this season, it's irrelevant. I don't care who wins it, I don't care which nation the team that wins it comes from, I don't care about the nationality of the players in the team that wins it. It's a bit of fluff, an interesting aside to the real stuff of the season.

by **Notch** Sun 02 Nov 2014, 08:18

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:Don't include me though - I don't care for the Champions Cup this season, it's irrelevant. I don't care who wins it, I don't care which nation the team that wins it comes from, I don't care about the nationality of the players in the team that wins it. It's a bit of fluff, an interesting aside to the real stuff of the season.

by quinsforever Sun 02 Nov 2014, 14:01

The Great Aukster wrote:
quinsforever wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
quinsforever wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
quinsforever wrote:well the one thing thats not going to happen is an expansion of the top tier cup. not after all the blood spilt getting it down to 20 and weeding out some of the weaker sides from the pro12.

and maybe the pro12 unions shouldnt have been so quick to veto the 20th spot in the top tier going to the winner of the Amin. after all, PRl and LNR were strongly in favour.

The PRO12 weren't quick to veto anything - the whole story is that the PRO12 were the only ones giving up their representation so why would they give up yet another place?

The answer is simple - whichever club wins the Challenge Cup should take a Champion's Cup place from their League's quota.
it was a bit more complicated than that i think.

lots of people are unhappy that their teams are in the Amlin for the first time. my team love it. we are always happy to try to win silverware. if others dont thats fine. everything will calm down eventually. teething grumbles.

Lots of people are unhappy? That perhaps should read lots of PRO12 people are unhappy. AP people have no change so why would they be unhappy all of a sudden? Perhaps the PRO12 teams should feel flattered that the Amlin competition wanted them so much to give some kudos, but more likely they are moving on to focus on competitions where winning means something rather than being best of the rest.

If you plant a dandelion it's never going to become an orchid - some people like dandelions but they don't have the same cache as an orchid. Each to their own.
you do realise the irony here Notch?

this is how most english fans, players and owners viewed the attitude of Rabo sides to their own league. given that they only really cared about the heiny Cup.

sadly, that still seems to be the case if the Amlin isnt worth bothering about! however from the perspective of english and french clubs, at least that means that the Rabo is actually a properly "competitive" now in the sense that there are real consequences and benefits depending where one finishes.

QF, thanks for the discourtesy of using my post and not addressing me directly - I'll take it you either cannot deal with the idea of letting the Amlin winner in by losing a HEC league place or don't understand the concept?

Cup, plate, bowl, shield. Dress it up whatever way you like but the Cup is the only one that matters to the public. How many people can name the last Amlin winner?

bit precious. i did you the courtesy of replying to and addressing your post. mixed up who had made the point, which is surely less relevant than the point itself.

i have always been 100% in favour of the amlin winner getting a Champions Cup place. i have said it so many times that i didnt feel the need to repeat myself again for the 100th time.

but the only way that happens is if the pro12 scrap their 7th automatic spot.

the clubs in england and france will no way agree to give up their 6th spot to a team winning the Amlin if that means a higher placed league team doesnt qualify (especially as english and french clubs have 13 teams in the amlin and pro12 have 5 (although only 3 with even the slightest chance of winning it). not a chance.

that would mean that the team playing their hearts out to finish 6th and qualify for the Champions cup, would not know whether they actually qualified until after the random outcome of the Amlin final which happens after the regular league season (pre-playoffs) finishes.

Amlin should definitely get a qualifiers spot, but it will never come out of the league's current auto spots, as that, based on the most likely outcome in the Amlin without teams dropping back down from the HC, is penalising the AP. and they will not agree to that.

by hawalsh Sun 02 Nov 2014, 14:47

The Great Aukster wrote:
hawalsh wrote:Like most, I think that the 20th spot should automatically go to the Challenge Cup winner (currently they get their league's place in the play-off if they haven't already qualified for the competition by league position). However, I'd wager that this and most years' winners will already have qualified by league position. Certainly from an English perspective historically teams doing well in the Challenge usually acts as a springboard for the league (Bath, Sale & Wasps topped their Challenge Cup pools last year, with Bath the losing finalist, and all three are in the Champions this year).

So what would happen then? Just giving it directly to the next team in their league is in no way earnt by the benefiting club. You could give it to the losing finalist, but what if they've already qualified as well (as Bath did last year)? Do you then go to the semi-finalists, which one?

It's in the instance of an already qualified winner that I think the play-offs would be the correct solution, and in a mistaken manner what will transpire anyway, though I'd like to see a rule change to make sure.

No need for any of that Hawalsh. The Amlin winner qualifies irrespective of where they finish in their League. If they hadn't already qualified then they replace the lowest qualifier from their League.

That's what I said. The question was what happens when they HAVE already qualified by league position. There would still be a spare space (unless you're also suggesting changing the 6,6,7 format) and just giving it to the next ranked team in their league is not earnt by that benefiting team. They would be no more deserving than the next ranked team from either of the other 2 leagues.

I (and the bookies) think Gloucester will win the Challenge Cup this year. I'd be surprised if they didn't also finish in the AP top 6 (the bookies have them finishing 5th). I would hate for the 7th side in our league benefiting over teams from the other leagues because of Gloucester's achievements.

by **Notch** Sun 02 Nov 2014, 14:58

quinsforever wrote:
you do realise the irony here Notch?

The Great Aukster wrote:QF, thanks for the discourtesy of using my post and not addressing me directly

quinsforever wrote:bit precious. i did you the courtesy of replying to and addressing your post. mixed up who had made the point, which is surely less relevant than the point itself.

If I may put my moderator hat on for a second quins, I would say that you have egregiously insulted Mr. Aukster. In fact you have compared him to a known troublemaker in these parts with a rather unfortunate reputation. Time for an apology?

by quinsforever Sun 02 Nov 2014, 15:01

by beshocked Mon 03 Nov 2014, 10:02

If Grenoble think that the Challenge Cup is beneath them then let's throw them out. Same with any team. Instead of criticising the challenge cup, they should look at their own failings.

Every team must now fight to be in the top tier - no longer will top tier European rugby be handed out to clubs on a platter - I personally think this is good.

The sides in the Challenge Cup are there because they have not done enough to be in the top tier and I personally don't feel like any side is a significant absentee.

You don't hear English sides like Gloucester and Exeter complaining - they know that if they work hard enough they'll be back in the top tier next season. They have the necessary hunger.

I guess there's always going to be some resentment when you're used to getting things handed to you on a platter - when the platter gets taken away it does hurt. That's natural.

It's up to the sides in the Challenge Cup to have a hard look at themselves. If they improve then they'll be able to compete.

Look at Glasgow - a side I have derided for their woeful European record - they are proving their doubters wrong by performing well in Europe so far this season. Why can't other sides follow their example?

by **LondonTiger** Mon 03 Nov 2014, 10:31

It is not just the Challenge cup that gets treated as a second rate comp by the French. Doubt we will see many first teamers in the Castres side for the rest of the champions cup.

by HammerofThunor Mon 03 Nov 2014, 10:47

The article doesn't really read like he thinks it's pointless to me

“The Challenge Cup is from my point of view a bit of a pointless competition in terms of your first-grade players,” Jackman said. “It’s a great opportunity to give guys game time.

“The second competition over here, the Espoirs, is under-23s only, and you can have one overage player. So we have guys, 27 or 28, who don’t get to play for us probably as regularly as you’d like.

“So for them it’s a case of giving them two weeks in a row to get 80 minutes under their belts and prove that they’re ready for a first-team place; [it’s also] to rehabilitate guys coming back from injury, and get game time into them; and also to have a look at some of our young French guys who in our academy.”

Sounds like he thinks there is a lot of benefit to it.

by HammerofThunor Mon 03 Nov 2014, 10:50

I was pretty shocked by this one

It’s great for the second-tier to get an opportunity to play the big sides from the Aviva Premiership and the Top 14, but I just don’t see it being sustainable in its current format.

I still maintain that the Pro12 is on the level with the other leagues. Certainly not second tier.

by LordDowlais Mon 03 Nov 2014, 11:33

quinsforever wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
quinsforever wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
quinsforever wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
quinsforever wrote:well the one thing thats not going to happen is an expansion of the top tier cup. not after all the blood spilt getting it down to 20 and weeding out some of the weaker sides from the pro12.

and maybe the pro12 unions shouldnt have been so quick to veto the 20th spot in the top tier going to the winner of the Amin. after all, PRl and LNR were strongly in favour.

The PRO12 weren't quick to veto anything - the whole story is that the PRO12 were the only ones giving up their representation so why would they give up yet another place?

The answer is simple - whichever club wins the Challenge Cup should take a Champion's Cup place from their League's quota.
it was a bit more complicated than that i think.

lots of people are unhappy that their teams are in the Amlin for the first time. my team love it. we are always happy to try to win silverware. if others dont thats fine. everything will calm down eventually. teething grumbles.

Lots of people are unhappy? That perhaps should read lots of PRO12 people are unhappy. AP people have no change so why would they be unhappy all of a sudden? Perhaps the PRO12 teams should feel flattered that the Amlin competition wanted them so much to give some kudos, but more likely they are moving on to focus on competitions where winning means something rather than being best of the rest.

If you plant a dandelion it's never going to become an orchid - some people like dandelions but they don't have the same cache as an orchid. Each to their own.
you do realise the irony here Notch?

this is how most english fans, players and owners viewed the attitude of Rabo sides to their own league. given that they only really cared about the heiny Cup.

sadly, that still seems to be the case if the Amlin isnt worth bothering about! however from the perspective of english and french clubs, at least that means that the Rabo is actually a properly "competitive" now in the sense that there are real consequences and benefits depending where one finishes.

QF, thanks for the discourtesy of using my post and not addressing me directly - I'll take it you either cannot deal with the idea of letting the Amlin winner in by losing a HEC league place or don't understand the concept?

Cup, plate, bowl, shield. Dress it up whatever way you like but the Cup is the only one that matters to the public. How many people can name the last Amlin winner?
bit precious. i did you the courtesy of replying to and addressing your post. mixed up who had made the point, which is surely less relevant than the point itself.

i have always been 100% in favour of the amlin winner getting a Champions Cup place. i have said it so many times that i didnt feel the need to repeat myself again for the 100th time.

but the only way that happens is if the pro12 scrap their 7th automatic spot.

the clubs in england and france will no way agree to give up their 6th spot to a team winning the Amlin if that means a higher placed league team doesnt qualify (especially as english and french clubs have 13 teams in the amlin and pro12 have 5 (although only 3 with even the slightest chance of winning it). not a chance.

that would mean that the team playing their hearts out to finish 6th and qualify for the Champions cup, would not know whether they actually qualified until after the random outcome of the Amlin final which happens after the regular league season (pre-playoffs) finishes.

Amlin should definitely get a qualifiers spot, but it will never come out of the league's current auto spots, as that, based on the most likely outcome in the Amlin without teams dropping back down from the HC, is penalising the AP. and they will not agree to that.

Just so you know, the Pro12 only get 6 automatic spots in the league, oh, and just to let you know, those six spots are not automatic, they have to be earned, the winner of the Second tier European comp should take the place of the playoff game.

by beshocked Mon 03 Nov 2014, 11:38

Not quite sure I would call some of the English or French sides big!

by SecretFly Mon 03 Nov 2014, 11:57

HammerofThunor wrote:I was pretty shocked by this one
It’s great for the second-tier to get an opportunity to play the big sides from the Aviva Premiership and the Top 14, but I just don’t see it being sustainable in its current format.

I still maintain that the Pro12 is on the level with the other leagues. Certainly not second tier.

His point is the 2nd Tier............ there are two of them this year. He's saying those non-Pro12/Top14/AP League teams would enjoy the opportunity to play against Top14 or AP teams. He neglected to mention the Pro12 in this context because even he (as an ex-Pro12er) is unfamiliar with the idea of Pro12 teams being in the Amlin level contest at all Wink

by SecretFly Mon 03 Nov 2014, 12:16

beshocked wrote:If Grenoble think that the Challenge Cup is beneath them then let's throw them out.

Who is US? Here we go again...let's throw out a partner (or some of a partner's teams) and redraw the rules more to our own selfish liking again.

The French teams use the Amlin Mark 2 in their way, for their purposes, for their ends, and it's their business. The AP do the same. That the French frown on the 'contest' value of the Challenge Cup and therefore use it for their own selfish ends (unrelated to 'winning' the thing) is their business. And we'll see through the rounds which sides remain 'competitive' in it from all Leagues and which sides might be accused or supported by their very own fans for taking their eye off the Challenge Cup to concentrate finite resources on League position instead.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 03 Nov 2014, 12:24

LordDowlais wrote:

Just so you know, the Pro12 only get 6 automatic spots

AP - 6
T14 - 6
Playoff - 1

So if Pro12 only get 6 who is the 20th team?

by SecretFly Mon 03 Nov 2014, 12:39

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote: Cup, plate, bowl, shield. Dress it up whatever way you like but the Cup is the only one that matters to the public. How many people can name the last Amlin winner?

The Challenge Cup mattered enough to 100,000+ members of the public in the last fortnight to delve into their wallets, get off their arses and support their teams. A fair wodge of those cared enough to delve very deeply into their wallets and dedicate a whole weekend to supporting their team overseas, creating memories, forging friendships and probably nursing stupendous hangovers at the end of it.

That compares to about 240,000 for the Champions Cup. Who knows how many non-aligned rugby supporters there are out there - the supporters of Rotherham and Albi and Colwyn Bay, the committee of London Nigerians RFC, the Georgian folk whose team misssed out on playing in the Challenge Cup by a whisker.

They're all the public and you dare to speak for them all - that's bold.

Don't include me though - I don't care for the Champions Cup this season, it's irrelevant. I don't care who wins it, I don't care which nation the team that wins it comes from, I don't care about the nationality of the players in the team that wins it. It's a bit of fluff, an interesting aside to the real stuff of the season.

Spoken by a man lucky enough to have a substantial League/National presence in both contests Wink

Ah it's always nice to spread the Love when you know you'll always be where the love gets to.

The Olympics is getting a bit big too. I think there'll come a time when the necessity to have an Amlinmpics will be seen by the money men. Afterall, why have one moneybags contest when you can have two. The Amlinmypics will be for the smaller nations that seldom win any Golds, Silvers or Bronzes. Separate them from the big boys and give them a contest of their own where they feel all gooey about the potential to get more Amlinold, Silvlin or Amronze medals for themselves and their lovely little people.

Oh and in order to make it all 'TV'y you'll have to have some of the big nations taking part too (Russia, USA, GB, France, Germany etc) with perhaps just 30,000 of their lesser athletes each to bring some professional sparkle and TV 'interest' to the event. And if they win some Silvlinware as a bonus well, so be it - it'll show that the big guys have the honesty to try hard in both contests, innit Wink

So I say to the Challenge Cup supporters who despise the doubters, put your money where your mouth is. Fund the Challenge Cup. All Three Leagues allow money earned from their contracts with the big Broadcasting companies to go to the pan-European sub-top League sides. And stay out of that competition completely yourselves. No Pro12, Top14 or AP sides near it. Their chances for European glory only to come from League position and ERCC involvement.

by LordDowlais Mon 03 Nov 2014, 13:42

LondonTiger wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:

Just so you know, the Pro12 only get 6 automatic spots

AP - 6
T14 - 6
Playoff - 1

So if Pro12 only get 6 who is the 20th team?

I dunno, but the Pro12 only get six spaces in the top tier of Europe.

by Jenifer McLadyboy Mon 03 Nov 2014, 13:45

LordDowlais wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:

Just so you know, the Pro12 only get 6 automatic spots

AP - 6
T14 - 6
Playoff - 1

So if Pro12 only get 6 who is the 20th team?

I dunno, but the Pro12 only get six spaces in the top tier of Europe.

Put it another way

Leinster
Glasgow
Ulster
Ospreys
Munster
Scarlets
Treviso

Are all in the Chumps cup. Which one is not in the Pro12?

by No 7&1/2 Mon 03 Nov 2014, 13:46

Have I gone silly? It's 7 teams from the Pro 12 isn't it? And they are automatic aren't they?

by beshocked Mon 03 Nov 2014, 14:22

SecretFly wrote:
beshocked wrote:If Grenoble think that the Challenge Cup is beneath them then let's throw them out.

Who is US? Here we go again...let's throw out a partner (or some of a partner's teams) and redraw the rules more to our own selfish liking again.

The French teams use the Amlin Mark 2 in their way, for their purposes, for their ends, and it's their business. The AP do the same. That the French frown on the 'contest' value of the Challenge Cup and therefore use it for their own selfish ends (unrelated to 'winning' the thing) is their business. And we'll see through the rounds which sides remain 'competitive' in it from all Leagues and which sides might be accused or supported by their very own fans for taking their eye off the Challenge Cup to concentrate finite resources on League position instead.

Secretfly you say it's their business... are you pleased that a side like Castres doesn't take the top tier European competition seriously?

I don't understand you sometimes - you moan about the new competition yet leap to the defence of the French clubs. I agree that the French clubs have their own selfish interests as do every club including the Irish and English ones. The French are simply better at getting the Pro12 clubs dancing to their tune than the AP clubs.

by SecretFly Mon 03 Nov 2014, 14:26

It's one from each Nation (don't mention Nation!!!!!).
Sorry.
So it's one from each National REGION of the Pro12 Wink

and then the top 6 after that. So we're lucky enough in the League that some of the top six are from one of the National Regions of Pro12 and so qualify twice - the basterauds! That seems something that should be looked into, two qualifications for one side seems like cheating.

So - the solution is probably to drop the Italian region from the Pro12 altogether (coldly and clinically like our AP/Top14 masters would want us to do) and let the Italian players play for the rest of us.
And take six auto places from those 10 sides. Plus one from each nation - that's four more. So all ten sides in the new Pro12 would qualify by right. Wink

Yes, we need change again...there's a lot of hope in a major restructure.

by beshocked Mon 03 Nov 2014, 14:30

Qualify by right?

You mean wanting your cake and eating it again?

by SecretFly Mon 03 Nov 2014, 14:38

beshocked wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
beshocked wrote:If Grenoble think that the Challenge Cup is beneath them then let's throw them out.

Who is US? Here we go again...let's throw out a partner (or some of a partner's teams) and redraw the rules more to our own selfish liking again.

The French teams use the Amlin Mark 2 in their way, for their purposes, for their ends, and it's their business. The AP do the same. That the French frown on the 'contest' value of the Challenge Cup and therefore use it for their own selfish ends (unrelated to 'winning' the thing) is their business. And we'll see through the rounds which sides remain 'competitive' in it from all Leagues and which sides might be accused or supported by their very own fans for taking their eye off the Challenge Cup to concentrate finite resources on League position instead.

Secretfly you say it's their business... are you pleased that a side like Castres doesn't take the top tier European competition seriously?

I don't understand you sometimes - you moan about the new competition yet leap to the defence of the French clubs. I agree that the French clubs have their own selfish interests as do every club including the Irish and English ones. The French are simply better at getting the Pro12 clubs dancing to their tune than the AP clubs.

You mistake logic for passion, beshocked. I only outline the logic that the French will decide for themselves how much of an effort they put into the Challenge, regardless of you or I wishing they put more of an effort in. That's not me saying I wish they would put more effort in either though. That's just me saying my opinion is my business and their contribution, and how they manage it, is theirs.

On the Castres point. I don't care what sides don't take the competition seriously IF they're in a pool where my Provinces are. If they elect to lose games for their own reasons, so be it - less work for my Provinces and more chance of getting through to play-off stages.
I've said it before, anyone who claims they don't want their side or sides winning their pools as easily as they can manage is, in my opinion, a liar. We want what's best for our side or favourite sides. We don't want to see them beaten just to make neutrals happy Wink

So, in brief - I don't support the French - anymore than I support the AP English. But I realise and have always stated they are out for their own interests - and in that regard, let them at it. I'm out for the interests of Irish sides within the Pro12 and within Europe. Such a favouritism helps out my childhood club - Ireland international. That's my Club.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 03 Nov 2014, 15:03

Castres are currently bottom of T14. Relegation could be very hazardous to the club. Of course they will prioritise the T14 ahead of a competition that they are now effectively out of.

by SecretFly Mon 03 Nov 2014, 15:04

beshocked wrote: Qualify by right?

You mean wanting your cake and eating it again?

Yes, I like the English model of getting everything you want without conceding anything. That trick is worth learning.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 03 Nov 2014, 15:06

SecretFly wrote:
beshocked wrote: Qualify by right?

You mean wanting your cake and eating it again?

Yes, I like the English model of getting everything you want without conceding anything. That trick is worth learning.

Helps when you own the bakery.

It is the peasants demanding cake they have not earned that causes the problem Very Happy

by SecretFly Mon 03 Nov 2014, 15:07

LondonTiger wrote:Castres are currently bottom of T14. Relegation could be very hazardous to the club. Of course they will prioritise the T14 ahead of a competition that they are now effectively out of.

Good for them. Tally ho with the cottonwool ideology, and long may the Irish invention live on. At least we taught Europe the moral value of Coming OUT and not to be shamed or embarrassed about it. And no need for Doc Phil either, thank God.

by beshocked Mon 03 Nov 2014, 15:07

Secretfly that's where we are perhaps different. I prefer this season's top tier because it's more competitive even though it makes it harder for Saracens to progress. It's what the top tier should be about - top tier teams fighting it out.

It's unfair on other sides in the competition that team X got two teams in their pool last season which gave them 19 out of 20 points - allowing them to qualify for the quarter finals. That's not what top tier European rugby should be about. Yes it was nice for team X I guess but it's not fair is it?

Castres lack of interest in the top tier damages the integrity of the competition. It's like when certain Pro12 sides don't take the Pro12 seriously or when AP sides throw in the towel before a game.

You could argue LW's lack of competitiveness also damages the AP.

If you want to increase the value of a competition then you have to show a level of effort and competitiveness.

by SecretFly Mon 03 Nov 2014, 15:08

LondonTiger wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
beshocked wrote: Qualify by right?

You mean wanting your cake and eating it again?

Yes, I like the English model of getting everything you want without conceding anything. That trick is worth learning.

Helps when you own the bakery.

It is the peasants demanding cake they have not earned that causes the problem

We've been making the cakes for the last six or seven years...that's earning in my book

by beshocked Mon 03 Nov 2014, 15:12

If you were making cake for the last 6 or seven years - what were you doing in the years before that? You've been subsidised for years - it was about time you gave something back.

As for making the cakes you have still eaten more than you have produced!

by SecretFly Mon 03 Nov 2014, 15:15

beshocked wrote:Secretfly that's where we are perhaps different. I prefer this season's top tier because it's more competitive even though it makes it harder for Saracens to progress. It's what the top tier should be about - top tier teams fighting it out.

It's unfair on other sides in the competition that team X got two teams in their pool last season which gave them 19 out of 20 points - allowing them to qualify for the quarter finals. That's not what top tier European rugby should be about. Yes it was nice for team X I guess but it's not fair is it?

Castres lack of interest in the top tier damages the integrity of the competition. It's like when certain Pro12 sides don't take the Pro12 seriously or when AP sides throw in the towel before a game.

You could argue LW's lack of competitiveness also damages the AP.

If you want to increase the value of a competition then you have to show a level of effort and competitiveness.

I refer you to Tiger's point regarding Castres. castres won't be alone. Some sides will begin to see that their priorities (in business as much as games) will shift back to their Leagues after the next rounds. So what will we be left with? What has always been - sides trying with maximum effort and sides ringing in their ERCC contribution as their minds drift back to important League games. If Saracens decided it was best to reconcentrate on their League, would you be the first up to critcise them? I think you'd choose instead to point out the needed pragmatism of putting the effort in where it will seek to gain most.

by beshocked Mon 03 Nov 2014, 15:20

Just because Castres won't be alone doesn't mean that they are right.

Some sides have a reputation for trying more than others. Castres are one of those that has always had a bad reputation in European competitions.

Of course I wouldn't be the first person to criticise Saracens - I am sure numerous posters would beat me to it! If they do get criticised though I could understand why.

Difference between Saracens and Castres - is that Castres have always focussed on the French league when possible - Saracens in comparison try in both the league and Europe if they can.

by SecretFly Mon 03 Nov 2014, 15:22

beshocked wrote:If you were making cake for the last 6 or seven years - what were you doing in the years before that? You've been subsidised for years - it was about time you gave something back.

As for making the cakes you have still eaten more than you have produced!

You don't subsidise cakes. Someone make them and if they're liked, they're the things that give the owners profit. We've been giving the product value over the last six or seven years...us. The word is not 'subsidise' but 'buy-out'. The guy across the street used banker's money (BT) - not his money (subsidy) - to walk over to the cake makers and say he was buying them out and now they work for him. Theft is another word for loans given to guys to buy things they can't afford. Wink

by andyi Tue 04 Nov 2014, 16:41

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:The call to televise more Challenge Cup games is to counter the whiff of condescension, arrogance and negativity that pervades some of these threads.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuStsFW4EmQ

but mostly it's to avoid having to watch blydi Munster and blydi Saracens.

Problem is, there is no incentive for the TV companies as it's ratings are Poopie.

BT Sport 2
w/e 26 Oct 2014
7 day data (000s)
1 MOTOGP 2014 (SUN 0746) 153
2 EUROPEAN RUGBY CHAMPIONS CUP (SAT 1930) 115
3 EUROPEAN RUGBY CHAMPIONS CUP (FRI 1900) 106
4 EUROPEAN RUGBY CHAMPIONS CUP (SUN 1630) 104
5 MOTOGP 2014 (SUN 0606) 59
6 SERIE A (SUN 1358) 37
7 MOTOGP 2014 (SAT 0600) 26
8 EUROPEAN RUGBY CHALLENGE CUP (THU 1930) 20
9 UFC - THE ULTIMATE FIGHTER - SERIES 20 (THU 2200) 19
10 MOTOGP 2014 (MON 1715) 17

They have no real interest in it TBH.

Maybe once the KO stage starts, they may show more games?

by TJ Tue 04 Nov 2014, 17:48

Has any of you who want the 20th place in the european cup to go to the winners of the second teir - can you please answer - who drops out of the previous years cup teams to accommodate them? Its the sticking issue and no one has answered it that I can see

Would it be the lowest ranked team from that nation? From that league? last years qualifiers?

by quinsforever Tue 04 Nov 2014, 18:12

and what if the 2nd tier winner qualifies anyway through their league? runner up qualifies? and if they already qualify via their league, semi-finalists to qualify?

english teams will not agree to have an english winner of the amlin displace the 6th placed english team in the AP from qualifying. why? because we have 6 teams in the Amlin compared to rabo's 3, and 4 of those teams will fancy their chances of winning the Amlin. So the PRL will not agree to have the amlin winner's spot come from the AP's allocation of Champions Cup spots.

it really should have been just 6/6/6 plus the winner of each competition. its the only way that doesnt involve some kind of horrifically messy playoff/fudge/allocation process

by HammerofThunor Tue 04 Nov 2014, 19:07

TJ wrote:Has any of you who want the 20th place in the european cup to go to the winners of the second teir - can you please answer - who drops out of the previous years cup teams to accommodate them? Its the sticking issue and no one has answered it that I can see

Would it be the lowest ranked team from that nation? From that league? last years qualifiers?

Scrap the playoff. Fail to see the problem.

by TJ Tue 04 Nov 2014, 20:02

There still has to be a team drop out every year to allow this years winners in.

by HammerofThunor Tue 04 Nov 2014, 20:24

Yeah, scrap the play off. 6 from T14, 6 from Jeff, 7 from Pro12 and the Challenge Cup winner. 20 teams.

by quinsforever Tue 04 Nov 2014, 20:51

i would prefer the 6/6/6 and winners of both comps get a free spot.

but scrapping the playoff works just fine.

by asoreleftshoulder Tue 04 Nov 2014, 20:56

beshocked wrote:Secretfly that's where we are perhaps different. I prefer this season's top tier because it's more competitive even though it makes it harder for Saracens to progress. It's what the top tier should be about - top tier teams fighting it out.

It's unfair on other sides in the competition that team X got two teams in their pool last season which gave them 19 out of 20 points - allowing them to qualify for the quarter finals. That's not what top tier European rugby should be about. Yes it was nice for team X I guess but it's not fair is it?

Castres lack of interest in the top tier damages the integrity of the competition. It's like when certain Pro12 sides don't take the Pro12 seriously or when AP sides throw in the towel before a game.

You could argue LW's lack of competitiveness also damages the AP.

If you want to increase the value of a competition then you have to show a level of effort and competitiveness.

The reason it's harder to qualify is because they made a balls of the seeding process.Leinster had a few really tough groups in the last few years,you might remember one with Saracens and Clermont,that was because the old seeding system was pretty crap too.They had the chance to at least rectify the structural problems with the old cup but have failed on every major issue and made the seeding system even worse.

by quinsforever Tue 04 Nov 2014, 21:12

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
beshocked wrote:Secretfly that's where we are perhaps different. I prefer this season's top tier because it's more competitive even though it makes it harder for Saracens to progress. It's what the top tier should be about - top tier teams fighting it out.

It's unfair on other sides in the competition that team X got two teams in their pool last season which gave them 19 out of 20 points - allowing them to qualify for the quarter finals. That's not what top tier European rugby should be about. Yes it was nice for team X I guess but it's not fair is it?

Castres lack of interest in the top tier damages the integrity of the competition. It's like when certain Pro12 sides don't take the Pro12 seriously or when AP sides throw in the towel before a game.

You could argue LW's lack of competitiveness also damages the AP.

If you want to increase the value of a competition then you have to show a level of effort and competitiveness.

The reason it's harder to qualify is because they made a balls of the seeding process.Leinster had a few really tough groups in the last few years,you might remember one with Saracens and Clermont,that was because the old seeding system was pretty crap too.They had the chance to at least rectify the structural problems with the old cup but have failed on every major issue and made the seeding system even worse. the seeding will get better when all leagues have to compete in their domestic competition. however there are still going to be anomalies as long as some leagues seed based on playoff outcomes rather than performance over a whole league season.

the previous seeding system was an awful lot worse than pretty crap. it was massively loaded in the pro12's favour. that's not just crap thats systematically biased.

by Sponsored content