Ireland vs South Africa 8th of November

First topic message reminder :

In six days time Ireland will host South Africa in their first test of the November tours. South Africa will have to lift themselves for this one as the standard under Meyer has ben exemplary in Europe, he is yet to lose a test match and the Six Nations champions gets first shot at breaking Meyer's unbeaten streak over the Six Nations teams.

It seems both teams are effected by injuries so their depth will be severely tested.

South African players unavailable due to injury.

Props - Marcel v d Merwe, Frans Malherbe
Hooker - Schalk Brits, Callie Visagie
Locks - Pieter Steph du Toit, Flip v d Merwe
Back Row - Frans Louw, Willem Alberts, Siya Kolisi, Arno Botha
Halfback - Fourie du Preez, Ruan Pienaar (Pending a fitness test)
Midfield - Jaque Fourie

Irish players unavailable due to injury.
Props - Healy, Moore, Ross (Questionable)
Hooker - Cronin, Best (questionable)
Locks - Tuohy, Ryan
Back Row - Henderson, Murphy, O'Brien
Halfback -
Flyhalf - Sexton (Questionable)
Midfield - Darcy (questionable)
Back Three - Kearney, Earls, Trimble, Fitzgerald, McFadden, Bowe (questionable)

Ireland has been rather successful against South Africa in the last decade, managing wins in 2004, 2006 and 2009.

South Africa 31 - 17 Ireland
South Africa 26 - 17 Ireland
Ireland 17 - 12 South Africa
Ireland 32 - 15 South Africa
Ireland 15 - 10 South Africa
Ireland 21 - 23 South Africa
Ireland 12 - 16 South Africa

Likely matchday 23 for South Africa.

1. Tendai Mtwarira
2. Bismarck du Plessis
3. Jannie du PLessis
4. Eben Etzebeth
5. Victor Matfield
6. Marcell Coetzee
7. Oupa Mohoje
8. Duane Vermeulen
9. Francois Hougaard
10. Handre Pollard
11. Brya Habana
12. Jean de Villiers
13. Jan Serfontein
14. Cornal Hendricks
15. Willie le Roux.

Subs
16. Coenie Oosthuizen
17. Adriaan Strauss
18. Julian Redelinghuys
19. Bakkies Botha
20. Schalk Burger
21. Cobus Reinach
22. Johan Goosen
23. Patrick Lambie/Damien de Allende

Likely Irish matchday 23. (Help please)

Ireland will be keen to beat the Springboks, even though they are unlikely to meet them in earlier rounds of the RWC it will give them validation and confidence for the Rugby World Cup. Under their new coach I expect them to throw the ball around and attempt to run the SPringboks off their feet, Ireland is also more used to the conditions and could use that to their advantage, I suspect the territorial game will be part of their plans.

It is easier sad than done though, the only team in recent years that managed to run the Springboks off their feet was New Zealand, and that was at altitude. South Africa these days play more adventurous rugby and at a great pace as well, newcomer Handre POllard will be on his first trip to Europe, so it might take him a while to adapt, but once on song he will be the danger man, South Africa attacks a lot flatter without Morne Steyn which does provide more hesitation in opposition defences and creates more space for their outside backs.

One issue with South Africa this season has been their inconsistency in performances, and they will have to be on song from the start.

Springbok coach Heyneke Meyer has warned his team they will need to be at their best if they are to keep their unbeaten record under his management in the northern hemisphere intact.

Meyer singled out the team’s first fixture against Ireland as a crucial one to kick off the team’s four week tour, and one which is the most tricky of all their fixtures.

The Boks know they cannot focus on the Twickenham showdown before getting past the tricky Irish, who have been a team that has plagued them at this time of year under previous coaches.

The Boks will know all too well how a poor opening performance can set the trend for the tour, and with chances to experiment getting less and less ahead of the World Cup, it is imperative that the team kick off the tour on a high note.

“We have a proud record and we haven’t lost a game there. But we have a proud record and this is probably the toughest tour we have faced to the Northern Hemisphere. I truly believe Ireland is an unbelievable team, they were unlucky not to beat the All Blacks last year.

“They’ve got a great coaching staff, a lot of in-form players and their defence is great. They’ve got a good kicking game in those conditions."

That's it boys, enjoy the discussion.

Baz1974 wrote:You could make the same argument for a similar number of Irish players though Biltong, mostly missing through injury and we don't have the same depth as you guys so hence the pessimism.
One thing that's struck me about this selection, and I'm sure it's very deliberate by Joe, is that this is the biggest Irish backline I can ever remember seeing -
15 Rob Kearney 6' 1" 95KG
14 Tommy Bowe 6' 3" 96KG
13 Jared Payne 6' 2" 94KG
12 Robbie Henshaw 6' 3" 100KG
11 Simon Zebo 6' 2" 94KG
10 Jonathan Sexton 6' 2" 94KG
9 Conor Murray 6' 2" 94KG

We've had the odd big man peppered through the backs in the past but can never remembering see a backline where all of them are over 6ft and 90KG.

Its unusual alright. The packs are about even in weight and I'd imagine the back lines are similar too. So we can be using size as an excuse :p

If you want a bigger backline, 108kg Stuart McCloskey has been one of the players of the season and an option going forward. Still I don't think Schmidt is just going for big men. You have to be able to play a bit too and these lads can.

brennomac wrote:Dunno if this has been posted before, but if not very funny Gift Grub p1ss-take on Irl-Saf game - Saffers might have some difficulty with this bit of Irish popular culture though!!

http://www.todayfm.com/player/podcasts/The_Ian_Dempsey_Breakfast_Show/The_Ian_Dempsey_Breakfast_Show/23185/2/gift_south_africa_love_hate

The last bit is a bit tough to understand, the accent is a bit heavy.

It isn't that Pienaar isn't a good player, but I simply don't believe he fits our game plan

SecretFly wrote:

Notch wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ofho-CKSXX8

Exactly... mad but beautiful moment for all people who love the concept of rugby. And thus the point that I hope the size of our backs is not the only reason they are there.  

Size but the drive of the 'midgets' is what will be required.  They'll have to stand up and meet true International standards with the same courage as BOD and his crew, and that means not always waiting for your alloted turn in defence but imposing yourself aggressively; pushing the aggressors back by being more aggressive than they are, letting them know it's not a tactical game but a true blue fight.  

I love this one

Biltong wrote:It isn't that Pienaar isn't a good player, but I simply don't believe he fits our game plan

You're damn right, he fits our (Ulster's) game plan and we need him back in harness ASAP....STAT....SUFTUM!!!!

Pete330v2 wrote:

Biltong wrote:It isn't that Pienaar isn't a good player, but I simply don't believe he fits our game plan

You're damn right, he fits our (Ulster's) game plan and we need him back in harness ASAP....STAT....SUFTUM!!!!

You need to get your club to draw up better contracts

Biltong wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

Biltong wrote:It isn't that Pienaar isn't a good player, but I simply don't believe he fits our game plan

You're damn right, he fits our (Ulster's) game plan and we need him back in harness ASAP....STAT....SUFTUM!!!!

You need to get your club to draw up better contracts

Like Toulon bil?

You may not like when players based overseas play for the Springboks but at least we don't kick off over them doing so!

SecretFly wrote:

Notch wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ofho-CKSXX8

Exactly... mad but beautiful moment for all people who love the concept of rugby. And thus the point that I hope the size of our backs is not the only reason they are there.  

Size but the drive of the 'midgets' is what will be required.  They'll have to stand up and meet true International standards with the same courage as BOD and his crew, and that means not always waiting for your alloted turn in defence but imposing yourself aggressively; pushing the aggressors back by being more aggressive than they are, letting them know it's not a tactical game but a true blue fight.  

Always what matters against the crowd thats coming this weekend. Thing is, they are considerably better than the World Champion side we beat in 2009. They can beat us in other ways if they get stopped up front.

But we're a better side than we were back then too. International rugby as a whole is better.

profitius wrote:

Its unusual alright. The packs are about even in weight and I'd imagine the back lines are similar too. So we can be using size as an excuse :p

If you want a bigger backline, 108kg Stuart McCloskey has been one of the players of the season and an option going forward. Still I don't think Schmidt is just going for big men. You have to be able to play a bit too and these lads can.  

you are probably right. But in fairness we do not have Schalk Burger, Bakkies botha and Adrian Strauss on the bench. They are all monsters.

Notch wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

Biltong wrote:It isn't that Pienaar isn't a good player, but I simply don't believe he fits our game plan

You're damn right, he fits our (Ulster's) game plan and we need him back in harness ASAP....STAT....SUFTUM!!!!

You need to get your club to draw up better contracts

Like Toulon bil?

You may not like when players based overseas play for the Springboks but at least we don't kick off over them doing so!

Well, their owner is a royal arse, but he also needs to sign ironclad contracts, eh?

Pete330v2 wrote:

Biltong wrote:It isn't that Pienaar isn't a good player, but I simply don't believe he fits our game plan

You're damn right, he fits our (Ulster's) game plan and we need him back in harness ASAP....STAT....SUFTUM!!!!

Is it Ulster that taught him his annoying habit of kicking the ball back into the ruck ?

GunsGerms wrote:

profitius wrote:

Its unusual alright. The packs are about even in weight and I'd imagine the back lines are similar too. So we can be using size as an excuse :p

If you want a bigger backline, 108kg Stuart McCloskey has been one of the players of the season and an option going forward. Still I don't think Schmidt is just going for big men. You have to be able to play a bit too and these lads can.  

you are probably right. But in fairness we do not have Schalk Burger, Bakkies botha and Adrian Strauss on the bench. They are all monsters.

In all honesty we have not been "bigger" for some time. I think the physicality everyone always harp on about is the attitude with which we play rugby. We enjoy and savour the contact battle.

Biltong wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

profitius wrote:

Its unusual alright. The packs are about even in weight and I'd imagine the back lines are similar too. So we can be using size as an excuse :p

If you want a bigger backline, 108kg Stuart McCloskey has been one of the players of the season and an option going forward. Still I don't think Schmidt is just going for big men. You have to be able to play a bit too and these lads can.  

you are probably right. But in fairness we do not have Schalk Burger, Bakkies botha and Adrian Strauss on the bench. They are all monsters.

In all honesty we have not been "bigger" for some time. I think the physicality everyone always harp on about is the attitude with which we play rugby. We enjoy and savour the contact battle.

Thats what we meat when we were talking about BOD. The Springboks would have loved to have him because of his raw desire for contact and for making that big hit. He even said in a recent article that his standout memory from the game where he scored a hat trick in Paris was making a big hit that lead to a turnover!

The problem teams have with you is when you get to test level your guys have traditionally had that love of contact and size.

Notch wrote:

Biltong wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

profitius wrote:

Its unusual alright. The packs are about even in weight and I'd imagine the back lines are similar too. So we can be using size as an excuse :p

If you want a bigger backline, 108kg Stuart McCloskey has been one of the players of the season and an option going forward. Still I don't think Schmidt is just going for big men. You have to be able to play a bit too and these lads can.  

you are probably right. But in fairness we do not have Schalk Burger, Bakkies botha and Adrian Strauss on the bench. They are all monsters.

In all honesty we have not been "bigger" for some time. I think the physicality everyone always harp on about is the attitude with which we play rugby. We enjoy and savour the contact battle.

Thats what we meat when we were talking about BOD. The Springboks would have loved to have him because of his raw desire for contact.

The problem is when you get to test level your guys have that love of contact and size.

But we are not that big, look at the Aussie backline, they are heavier than us.

Anyway, this is interesting. Can the Schmidt factor swing it for us? Didn't last year against Australia, at all. We likely don't have the preparation time to implement everything we need to.

http://www.thescore.ie/ireland-south-africa-joe-schmidt-1767395-Nov2014/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

South Africa are six-point favourites amongst the bookies in the build-up, they’re ranked second in the world, and have recently beaten number one side New Zealand. Ireland are down a raft of proven international players, have concerns over the fitness of their tighthead prop and start with an unfamiliar centre pairing.

It seems stacked against the home team entirely

They really love the underdog tag, eh?

Realistically, we’ve got an incredibly enthusiastic and talented bunch in the squad. They have worked really hard this week and last to make sure that they are as well prepared as we can possibly be.

Motivation, enthusiasm can easily undo the Boks if they aren't there mentally

Biltong wrote:

South Africa are six-point favourites amongst the bookies in the build-up, they’re ranked second in the world, and have recently beaten number one side New Zealand. Ireland are down a raft of proven international players, have concerns over the fitness of their tighthead prop and start with an unfamiliar centre pairing.

It seems stacked against the home team entirely

They really love the underdog tag, eh?

Yeah. To say it gets tiresome for me is an understatement. But theres no inbetween with the press. Against Wales in the world cup quarter final we apparently couldn't lose, because it was only Wales! Theres no balance there at all.

You should see it when NZ come to town they're given mythical status. No wonder the players have a complex when playing them.

Ireland's pack is around even in weight to South Africa's, and the Irish backline is heavier. No excuse for not winning or at least gaining parity in the collision zone.

PredictorofTeams wrote:Ireland's pack is around even in weight to South Africa's, and the Irish backline is heavier. No excuse for not winning or at least gaining parity in the collision zone.

There ya are predictor. Haven't heard from you for a while. How are your buddies "lotto numbers" and "weather" keeping?

qn for the saffers - will pollard be taking the kicks this weekend? just putting the finishing touches to my fantasy team for the first weekend

Yes Quins

cheers. really excited to see how pollard goes. havent watched him since the u20 jrwc. still cant believe he scored 2 tries against new zealand!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8Xw7WqhE74

I very much enjoyed this article from Mr Quinlan, a real insight into what both teams will be working on.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/lineout-battle-a-fascinating-prospect-at-the-aviva-on-saturday-1.1987934

Biltong wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8Xw7WqhE74

thx. what a talent.

GunsGerms wrote:

profitius wrote:

Its unusual alright. The packs are about even in weight and I'd imagine the back lines are similar too. So we can be using size as an excuse :p

If you want a bigger backline, 108kg Stuart McCloskey has been one of the players of the season and an option going forward. Still I don't think Schmidt is just going for big men. You have to be able to play a bit too and these lads can.  

you are probably right. But in fairness we do not have Schalk Burger, Bakkies botha and Adrian Strauss on the bench. They are all monsters.

Ruddock, Ah You and McCarthy match up on the weight stakes give or take a few pounds - Ah you weighing in at a decent 19stone plus....

Whatever Dod.

Just indicating we match up size wise....all over the park...

why what was your point?

I forget

Bigger doesn't necessarily mean better.

I mean bakkies for instance isn't bigger than other locks. He's not heavier, taller given he weighs in around 120kg and is +2metres tall.

I think the reason is that he simply lives for contact and is hyper aggressive at the breakdown.

I recall people saying AW Jones is a physical beast come ruck time but he's simply a choir boy compared. The intensity, the tempo of the breakdown in the SH is off the chart compared. Guys literally launch themselves into contact.

People say Schalk is a physical beast but he's well known to hate the gym. His strength is more akin to a builder than a bodybuilder such as Spies. Spies may look more impressive, have greater gym stats but Schalk is just naturally strong so he bats well above his 115kg (or whatever) frame in terms of strength.
Its one thing I think hinders the European game slightly. They condition players often as proto-type Ivan Dragos.... have you seen how all the Ireland backs have been listed as 6'1-6'3 and 95kgs??? Seems a little forced rather than building up players to their own individual optimal weight. Its not just Ireland, in fact its the first time I've noticed it in them (perhaps because BOD always bucked the trend but in Wales and Scotland its well known to be the case).

In the SH yes the players are conditioned but their strength is more natural, they lead very physical lifestyles and the game for me reflects this.

Put a SA team at 900kg out vs. a European team with exactly the same metrics and I think you'll think the SA team are taller, heavier, stronger, faster.

In terms of scrums I think Ireland with their top 8 out could match this SA pack with Matfield and Jannie they are vunerable on the righthand side. But on the breakdown, with dogs of war in Bismarck leading the charge I think Ireland will have to play to a whole new level of intensity to match them.... the last time I think I saw Ireland play this way was in 2011 when they smashed England in the 6N.... but they always raise the temperature against England... but can they do it against the boks?

ME-109 wrote:Just indicating we match up size wise....all over the park...

why what was your point?

Are you sure? Looking at the starting packs I'd say SA would have a weight advantage in the front and 2nd row. The back-row might be more even as SA are without Alberts.

Poite is reffing so that leaves scrums a complete lottery

My optimism is beginning to take over, I now believe this will be less than a five pointer, I think we can run them pretty close if the Schmidt factor works.
The main thing we have in our favour is no matter how prepared the Saffers are, by the time they get to meet that little Leprechaun and have gone through their anthem and both of ours they'll have forgotten their calls and fallen badly off form. They may even pick up a few crutial injuries during Ireland's call.

It's like a reverse Haka really.

PredictorofTeams wrote:Ireland's pack is around even in weight to South Africa's, and the Irish backline is heavier. No excuse for not winning or at least gaining parity in the collision zone.

As we've been discussing, most worthy sage, dominating the collision zone can be as much mental as it is physical when teams are evenly matched and even beyond. It's also like most things in rugby inn that its highly technical, a small guy can hit harder than a big guy with the right contact skills.

But pointing out that we're as big or bigger than them is probably the first step to getting over the mental block. We can beat them, but it will take a lot of things going very right.

As for the weight thing- well, where is the weight and how is it being used.

MMaaxx wrote:Hi Bilt, long time.

Usually agree with your input but cannot with regard to JJ. To me (and of course this is just an opinion and could very well be wrong) he is a race horse and little else and I have never seen him dominate better teams. He could be a great wing when we play weaker teams and you want to put them away.

Cornel has shown more to me especially in the way of heart even given his perceived weakness under the high ball. JJ had his fair share of chances and even though clearly a HM player he has been pretty much discarded which makes me believe that there are fundamental flaws in his game. We know HM analyses the hell out of his players etc.

To me JJ's weaknesses are more glaring such as defence, handling, organisational skills, vision, game management. Simply put he is not a ball player especially for the centre of the park.

Perhaps this will change after a couple more years in Super Rugby and he may become one of our main men around 2016 / 17

Hi Maxx, sorry missed your post earlier. We will have to disgree mate, Cornal is a sissy under the highball, defensively he is poor and worse than JJ. I would rather have Jj on the wing than Cornal, purely because his defence is better.

Both are excellent finishers, but the way in which Cornal avoided Savea and the High ball was pathetic.

Courage you can't teach, you can teach technique

profitius wrote:

Biltong wrote:

South Africa are six-point favourites amongst the bookies in the build-up, they’re ranked second in the world, and have recently beaten number one side New Zealand. Ireland are down a raft of proven international players, have concerns over the fitness of their tighthead prop and start with an unfamiliar centre pairing.

It seems stacked against the home team entirely

They really love the underdog tag, eh?

Yeah. To say it gets tiresome for me is an understatement. But theres no inbetween with the press. Against Wales in the world cup quarter final we apparently couldn't lose, because it was only Wales! Theres no balance there at all.

You should see it when NZ come to town they're given mythical status. No wonder the players have a complex when playing them.

Wait and see what happens when we beat you on Saturday! Springboks worst team going, couldn't even beat the poor injury-ravaged Irish etc.

Then if you win 'Sure, what did ye expect?'

And of course, every time I make a post about how poor our chances are, I still believe we'll be winning this one. But thats different, thats just being a fan.

The Saint wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Just indicating we match up size wise....all over the park...

why what was your point?

Are you sure? Looking at the starting packs I'd say SA would have a weight advantage in the front and 2nd row. The back-row might be more even as SA are without Alberts.

Except for Sean Cronin versus Bismarck du Plessis the front fives are evenly matched size wise.

As FA pointed out. Its not what you've got its what you do with it.

fa0019 wrote:Bigger doesn't necessarily mean better.

I mean bakkies for instance isn't bigger than other locks. He's not heavier, taller given he weighs in around 120kg and is +2metres tall.

I think the reason is that he simply lives for contact and is hyper aggressive at the breakdown.

I recall people saying AW Jones is a physical beast come ruck time but he's simply a choir boy compared. The intensity, the tempo of the breakdown in the SH is off the chart compared. Guys literally launch themselves into contact.

People say Schalk is a physical beast but he's well known to hate the gym. His strength is more akin to a builder than a bodybuilder such as Spies. Spies may look more impressive, have greater gym stats but Schalk is just naturally strong so he bats well above his 115kg (or whatever) frame in terms of strength.
Its one thing I think hinders the European game slightly. They condition players often as proto-type Ivan Dragos.... have you seen how all the Ireland backs have been listed as 6'1-6'3 and 95kgs??? Seems a little forced rather than building up players to their own individual optimal weight. Its not just Ireland, in fact its the first time I've noticed it in them (perhaps because BOD always bucked the trend but in Wales and Scotland its well known to be the case).

In the SH yes the players are conditioned but their strength is more natural, they lead very physical lifestyles and the game for me reflects this.

Put a SA team at 900kg out vs. a European team with exactly the same metrics and I think you'll think the SA team are taller, heavier, stronger, faster.

In terms of scrums I think Ireland with their top 8 out could match this SA pack with Matfield and Jannie they are vunerable on the righthand side. But on the breakdown, with dogs of war in Bismarck leading the charge I think Ireland will have to play to a whole new level of intensity to match them.... the last time I think I saw Ireland play this way was in 2011 when they smashed England in the 6N.... but they always raise the temperature against England... but can they do it against the boks?

Bigger certainly doesn't mean better... I'd agree there. No point being big if you can't use it.

I disagree in terms of it being a NH vs SH thing but I do think the weather plays a big part. Quicker ground means a faster game and a different type of athlete. When Josh Strauss came to Glasgow he mentioned the difference in the ground and that he has to use different muscles (I forget which ones he said) than he was in South Africa.

Once you're used to playing a fast game then the skill levels need to match so you end up with a fast skillful team versus a slower less skillfed team who base their game on forward strength. Even you Boks have realised that you've fallen behind NZ and are now trying to play a faster skill based game! Australia have always played that way which allowed them to punch above their weight.

Going back to the SH vs NH, Ireland beat Australia up front in the last word cup. We had better athletes up front like O'Brien, Ferris, Healy, O'Connell etc. They had the better backline but couldn't use it.

Regarding the point about Irelands backs, if you look at pictures of them they're actually fairly lean looking. SA's backs are supposedly shorter but the same weight though! Wales are the country with the Ivan Dragos! Gatland likes to bulk them up as much as possible which means they're hard to stop on the gainline but not great defensively.

The thing is, with the game being played at a higher tempo in the SH and players being the same weight it would seem to me that the play in the SH is more cardio intensive. That their weight is kept down by the intensity and therefore a 110kg in SA is probably more lean, stronger than a 110kg of a similar frame in say Scotland.

SA have played more in the backs this season but remember at the start of the season Morne had the shirt, the same rules applied and when Du Preez comes back I think the boks will return to a more constructive game plan.

Biltong wrote:

MMaaxx wrote:Hi Bilt, long time.

Usually agree with your input but cannot with regard to JJ. To me (and of course this is just an opinion and could very well be wrong) he is a race horse and little else and I have never seen him dominate better teams. He could be a great wing when we play weaker teams and you want to put them away.

Cornel has shown more to me especially in the way of heart even given his perceived weakness under the high ball. JJ had his fair share of chances and even though clearly a HM player he has been pretty much discarded which makes me believe that there are fundamental flaws in his game. We know HM analyses the hell out of his players etc.

To me JJ's weaknesses are more glaring such as defence, handling, organisational skills, vision, game management. Simply put he is not a ball player especially for the centre of the park.

Perhaps this will change after a couple more years in Super Rugby and he may become one of our main men around 2016 / 17

Hi Maxx, sorry missed your post earlier. We will have to disgree mate, Cornal is a sissy under the highball, defensively he is poor and worse than JJ. I would rather have Jj on the wing than Cornal, purely because his defence is better.

Both are excellent finishers, but the way in which Cornal avoided Savea and the High ball was pathetic.

Courage you can't teach, you can teach technique

Biltong please we all watched the game! He did not avoid Savea he was simply bullied in contact . Julian Savea literally ran through his attempted tackles and it was usually Marcell Coeztee flying in to make the hit after Hendricks was shunted aside . But to say he avoided him is unfair and untrue .

ME-109 wrote:

The Saint wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Just indicating we match up size wise....all over the park...

why what was your point?

Are you sure? Looking at the starting packs I'd say SA would have a weight advantage in the front and 2nd row. The back-row might be more even as SA are without Alberts.

Except for Sean Cronin versus Bismarck du Plessis the front fives are evenly matched size wise.

As FA pointed out. Its not what you've got its what you do with it.

Who do you have heavier than Etzebeth and Beast?

Yes I know that, but I think you were making the point about size, not I.

*Assuming Toner is in the 19 stone range? It slipped my mind that he was starting.

Bullsbok wrote:

Biltong wrote:

MMaaxx wrote:Hi Bilt, long time.

Usually agree with your input but cannot with regard to JJ. To me (and of course this is just an opinion and could very well be wrong) he is a race horse and little else and I have never seen him dominate better teams. He could be a great wing when we play weaker teams and you want to put them away.

Cornel has shown more to me especially in the way of heart even given his perceived weakness under the high ball. JJ had his fair share of chances and even though clearly a HM player he has been pretty much discarded which makes me believe that there are fundamental flaws in his game. We know HM analyses the hell out of his players etc.

To me JJ's weaknesses are more glaring such as defence, handling, organisational skills, vision, game management. Simply put he is not a ball player especially for the centre of the park.

Perhaps this will change after a couple more years in Super Rugby and he may become one of our main men around 2016 / 17

Hi Maxx, sorry missed your post earlier. We will have to disgree mate, Cornal is a sissy under the highball, defensively he is poor and worse than JJ. I would rather have Jj on the wing than Cornal, purely because his defence is better.

Both are excellent finishers, but the way in which Cornal avoided Savea and the High ball was pathetic.

Courage you can't teach, you can teach technique

Biltong please we all watched the game! He did not avoid Savea he was simply bullied in contact . Julian Savea literally ran through his attempted tackles and it was usually Marcell Coeztee flying in to make the hit after Hendricks was shunted aside . But to say he avoided him is unfair and untrue .

I have the match recorded, watch it.

The Saint wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

The Saint wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Just indicating we match up size wise....all over the park...

why what was your point?

Are you sure? Looking at the starting packs I'd say SA would have a weight advantage in the front and 2nd row. The back-row might be more even as SA are without Alberts.

Except for Sean Cronin versus Bismarck du Plessis the front fives are evenly matched size wise.

As FA pointed out. Its not what you've got its what you do with it.

Who do you have heavier than Etzebeth and Beast?

Yes I know that, but I think you were making the point about size, not I.

*Assuming Toner is in the 19 stone range? It slipped my mind that he was starting.

As has been said we match up size/weight wise.,,,what we do with it is another story...anyhow.....

Beast - 18st 4lb...Mike Ross 19st 13lb

Etzebeth 6ft 9, 19st 10lb...Toner 6ft 10, 19st 7 lb

It seems Ross is a bit chubbier than I thought. I always thought Beast looked a bit bigger than that too, he almost makes Gethin Jenkins look small.

Can someone please explain to me what the 'Schmidt Factor' is? I am still trying to work it out.

I thought it was a fancy name for Schmidtball?

Biltong wrote:

Bullsbok wrote:

Biltong wrote:

MMaaxx wrote:Hi Bilt, long time.

Usually agree with your input but cannot with regard to JJ. To me (and of course this is just an opinion and could very well be wrong) he is a race horse and little else and I have never seen him dominate better teams. He could be a great wing when we play weaker teams and you want to put them away.

Cornel has shown more to me especially in the way of heart even given his perceived weakness under the high ball. JJ had his fair share of chances and even though clearly a HM player he has been pretty much discarded which makes me believe that there are fundamental flaws in his game. We know HM analyses the hell out of his players etc.

To me JJ's weaknesses are more glaring such as defence, handling, organisational skills, vision, game management. Simply put he is not a ball player especially for the centre of the park.

Perhaps this will change after a couple more years in Super Rugby and he may become one of our main men around 2016 / 17

Hi Maxx, sorry missed your post earlier. We will have to disgree mate, Cornal is a sissy under the highball, defensively he is poor and worse than JJ. I would rather have Jj on the wing than Cornal, purely because his defence is better.

Both are excellent finishers, but the way in which Cornal avoided Savea and the High ball was pathetic.

Courage you can't teach, you can teach technique

Biltong please we all watched the game! He did not avoid Savea he was simply bullied in contact . Julian Savea literally ran through his attempted tackles and it was usually Marcell Coeztee flying in to make the hit after Hendricks was shunted aside . But to say he avoided him is unfair and untrue .

I have the match recorded, watch it.

My impression was not that Hendricks avoided tackles, it's just that he was knocked back in the tackles against Savea, allowing Savea to gain metres every time. It was a trend that came to an emphatic end when JP Pietersen came on!

Baz1974 wrote:You could make the same argument for a similar number of Irish players though Biltong, mostly missing through injury and we don't have the same depth as you guys so hence the pessimism.
One thing that's struck me about this selection, and I'm sure it's very deliberate by Joe, is that this is the biggest Irish backline I can ever remember seeing -
15 Rob Kearney 6' 1" 95KG
14 Tommy Bowe 6' 3" 96KG
13 Jared Payne 6' 2" 94KG
12 Robbie Henshaw 6' 3" 100KG
11 Simon Zebo 6' 2" 94KG
10 Jonathan Sexton 6' 2" 94KG
9 Conor Murray 6' 2" 94KG

We've had the odd big man peppered through the backs in the past but can never remembering see a backline where all of them are over 6ft and 90KG.

Have you been commentating for the US rugby channels by any chance?

It was his play under the high ball that was very poor, he avoided the ball every time, he did not take one high ball going to him.

Nachos Jones wrote:Can someone please explain to me what the 'Schmidt Factor' is? I am still trying to work it out.

it's like the X factor except no matter how many times you vote for your favourite Munster players they still never get picked