PGA Tour: Two Tournaments, Cultures and Continents Apart: Notes from the Ballwasher

First topic message reminder :

Not much interest in last week's tournaments (or my blog although uncanny how Europeans performed, almost all in conformance to my Notes!) so let's make this brief!

1).Great opportunities for Europeans who are PGA Tour members this week at the WGC:HSBC Champions in China, especially Donaldson and Dubuisson.

Westwood, for instance, will be 25% at least on his way to The Barclays, plus 20% of the way in to his Tour season. Possibly screwed by one of the rain delays last week but par for the Malaysian course. American media seem to favour non-Americans to bring home the bacon; the pgatour.com hacks' "expert picks" choose 11 four-man teams a la their Fantasy Game and there are only 11 (out of 44 chances) American choices made. History would suggest they have a good point, especially given Dustin Johnson's absence.

2).But many European PGA Tour members will be in Mississippi celebrating the 9 million chickens "processed" by "Sanderson Farms" each and every week. Knox and Laird will be hoping to continue their good starts to the season. The CC of Jackson is an old course but a new Tour venue so horses for courses goes out the window. As usual I fancy a Southern boy for tournaments in the South: Kevin Kisner and John Peterson will win soon - chance for one of them this week?

3).Bernhard Langer duly took home his $1M bonus swag for winning the Schwab Cup annuity and completing the most rewarding, monetarily at least, season in US Senior Tours history, squeaking by Hale Irwin's total money won ten years ago.
A couple of Langer tid-bits which were mentioned on last week's telly coverage, and repeated in this week's GolfWorld:
~His greens-hit-in-regulation %age this year of 78.35 is the highest ever recorded, on either the PGA or Champions Tours.
~Is this apocryphal or just Bernhard being Bernhard? Langer "After being given a yardage by his caddie asked 'From the front of the sprinkler head or the back?'"!

4).I'll be interested in Cameron Smith's showing this week in Mississippi with the 21-y-o Aussie, of whom I know nothing, making his first US start after last week's fifth-place effort at the CIMB. Anyone know anything about him? Is he the new "Aussie Stud"??

5).And an update from the US Ryder Cup pantomime suggests that each member of the US Team at Gleneagles texted Fred Couples imploring that he put his name forward for the 2016 Captaincy. Not clear whether this story has any legs or whether it's just the Press advocating for their favourite media darling. Interesting nevertheless.
Meanwhile, on the European side of the ledger, hasn't Nick Faldo been quiet since his "Sergio was useless" comment and the Ted Bishop/Ian Poulter spat? Would not be surprised if CBS TV were looking for replacement options for their "lead analyst" position.

McLaren wrote:If WGC's do not have the prestige that their field strength suggests they should, then what is going on?

In what sport do the worlds best players not totally relish the chance to play against each other?

Are players really not bothered about proving how good they are in some of the strongest fields in golf?


Missed the action in China, but I am sure Gerry will be a popular winner.

Well Bubba apparently gets it and agrees with most the golf world about the WGCs being prestigious wins... this from his interview after the round:

Question: Seventh win for you now on the PGA Tour an your third win in this calendar year, in your mind where does this put you in the world of golf.

Bubba Watson: I'm not sure where this puts me, but for me this was a big one, very big because I wanted to win outside the U.S., I've always wanted to win outside the U.S. It gets me my seventh win, closer to ten wins, and it's a World Golf Championship so it's a big win. Add all that up and it's a big one for me. This one means a lot. [/b]

Obviously to win outside the states was huge for him and sounds like 10 wins is his big goal (I might have thought it higher)... but it seems pretty clear that being a WGC made the victory all that much bigger to him...

I am sure Bubba said he used Progressive Insurance when he won the Farmers, Geico Insurance when he won the Travelers.

Players are going to say the Politically correct thing.

I think winning overseas was Bubba's biggest hurdle, considering his past faux-pas.

Interesting course, that's for sure. Surprised that Kaymer or McDowell did not grab this, but not surprised that young Fowler cards yet another runner up in a strong field tournament. Also -- and this could just be the TV shots -- gate looked small. I suspect it would have been much larger if McIlory and Woods played.

Des Smith anointing Rory as greater than both Nicklaus and Woods.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/golf/mcilroy-is-a-notch-above-them-all-including-nicklaus-and-woods-30729304.html

Very premature, IMO.

Apparently Fowler spoke out in defense of Tom Watson while in China....

“The unfortunate part, I believe, is that stuff that happens in the team room should stay there."

“I thought Tom did a great job of talking to the guys. He had been there plenty of times, and I enjoyed the time I got to spend with him. I respect him, he is a legend within the game. Some things may have got blown a little bit out of proportion. But obviously we didn’t play as well as we needed to in order to win.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/golf/rydercup/11218216/Rickie-Fowler-hits-back-at-Phil-Mickelson-over-criticism-of-Tom-Watsons-Ryder-Cup-captaincy.html

EDIT: Also his full comments here from the HSBC 3rd round presser... http://www.asapsports.com/show_interview.php?id=104512

GPB wrote:I am sure Bubba said he used Progressive Insurance when he won the Farmers, Geico Insurance when he won the Travelers.

Players are going to say the Politically correct thing.

I think winning overseas was Bubba's biggest hurdle, considering his past faux-pas.

Boy... a lot of those players sure are "politically correct" when it comes to WGC's... or maybe it's just a case they've been lying so long about how huge these WGC wins are they've actually started to believe it...
++++++++++++++++

Rory McIlroy on winning the 2014 Bridgestone...
Q.  And your first WGC title, Rory.  A quick word on that.
RORY McILROY: It's sort of the only thing missing.  Three majors and PGA Tour wins, European Tour wins, Ryder Cups, world No.1-- it was just sort of-- it was just the thing that was sort of missing on the CV was a World Golf Championship.

Matt Kuchar on his 2013 WGC Match Play
Q.  You've won THE PLAYERS, now you've won your first WGC title.  How do you compare the two achievements?
MATT KUCHAR:  Tough to compare with the match play difference, but you've got two fields that are the strongest fields in golf.  You've got the best players in the game of golf showing up, and to be a champion at an event where you've beaten the best in the world is just a-- it's an amazing feeling.
Winning THE PLAYERS, so many things were so cool to me about winning THE PLAYERS.  I look at THE PLAYERS as having the strongest field in the game of golf on one of the most difficult courses.  It also finished on Mother's Day.  My mom had never been to a tournament that I had won.  So to have all those things kind of come together was just a really special week.
But to be here to win my first World Golf Championship in this format, to win six matches, to win two matches Saturday and two matches Sunday is just an amazing feeling.

Dustin Johnson on his 2013 WGC HSBC
LAURA NEAL:  We'd like to welcome Dustin Johnson to the interview room.  You started off your 2013 season with a win.  Tell us what it feels like to start off another season with a win, this time in a World Golf Championships event.
DUSTIN JOHNSON:  It feels good.  It's been a long year. So obviously getting off this year with a win is definitely huge, especially winning HSBC-WGC.
It's my biggest win I've had so far in my career, and you know, it feels really good.

Hunter Mahan on his 2012 WGC Match Play
Q.  What does that say about two of those wins being WGCs?  Making you think too hard?
HUNTER MAHAN:  I think it's-- I don't know, I'm excited about it, for sure. Like I said, it's a goal of mine.  Since I've gotten two, I'd like to win them all. I think they're the prettiest trophy in the game.  I think they're pretty cool-looking for sure.  It would be pretty to have them all in my house.  That's a goal of mine.  But to have two, it feels nice.
No question when you play a WGC event, it's the best players in the world.  It's not just in the U.S.; it's in the world.  And you saw a lot of them come from Asia this week, and there are a lot of studs over there.  So this feels pretty special.  It's hard to get lucky in this week, because you're going to play such great players every single round.

Justin Rose on his 2012 WGC Cadillac
PAUL SYMES:  And this must give you great confidence going into the Masters.
JUSTIN ROSE:  No doubt about it, if you look at the tournaments I've won, Jack's tournament, Tiger's tournament, a Playoff event over here and now a World Golf Championships, the progression is really, really nice.  The only thing that really is the next level up is a major.

Luke Donald on his 2011 WGC Match Play
Q. You referenced in an earlier interview that you had the monkey taken off your back. I'm just wondering if we can infer from that statement the fact that you hadn't won in a while really bothered you more than you were letting on?
LUKE DONALD: It certainly bothered me. My goal every year is to win, win tournaments. ....
....I solely focus on trying to win tournaments. I felt like I hadn't won my fair share for as good a player as I felt I was and could be. It was disappointing, yeah. It was frustrating to me. I think winning in Europe took a little bit off. Obviously it was a little bit of a smaller event, obviously not a field like this. But to come here and compete against the best players in the world and win the trophy is very gratifying.

Adam Scott on his 2011 WGC Bridgestone win...
Q. You've had 19 wins around the world. How does this victory compare with those other wins? And the second part of the question is what does this do now for your confidence going to Atlanta?
ADAM SCOTT: Well, this is obviously one of the biggest wins of my career, to win a World Golf Championship is what I set out to do this year with the majors, a real focus on the big events, and I think I've done a pretty good job so far of getting myself in the hunt.
But that's the goal is to give myself a chance to win these big events. It's what I've wanted to do my whole career, and for whatever reason I haven't performed my best. But I really feel like I've got a good plan in place to get myself ready for these events now. That's working nicely.

Nick Watney on his 2011 WGC Cadillac win..
Q. Given a couple of the negative memories you mentioned, 2009 here, Whistling Straits, what could something like this -- how can you build on this?
NICK WATNEY: Well, I think just to win more. I mean, winning -- Top-10 finishes are nice but winning is what counts out here and that's how you're measured. To win this tournament against this field, it's a huge honor. I'm very excited. I'm very proud.

Hunter Mahan on his 2011 WGC Bridgestone win...
Q. What does this win mean to you different from your other wins?
HUNTER MAHAN: Yeah, obviously to win any time on the PGA TOUR is great, but an event like this, 80 of the best players in the world, this definitely means -- it's something special. This is a great, great tournament. Bridgestone does an incredible job. This course is immaculate. Every time we come here it's just like a major.

robopz wrote:Apparently Fowler spoke out in defense of Tom Watson while in China....

“The unfortunate part, I believe, is that stuff that happens in the team room should stay there."

“I thought Tom did a great job of talking to the guys. He had been there plenty of times, and I enjoyed the time I got to spend with him. I respect him, he is a legend within the game. Some things may have got blown a little bit out of proportion. But obviously we didn’t play as well as we needed to in order to win.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/golf/rydercup/11218216/Rickie-Fowler-hits-back-at-Phil-Mickelson-over-criticism-of-Tom-Watsons-Ryder-Cup-captaincy.html

This is first time someone (A huge critic of Mickelson) in the team room defended Watson and been critical of Mickelson. A couple of weeks ago, someone claimed that Fowler and Reed both defended Watson. I asked him for a citation and all I heard was crickets. He couldn't even acknowledge that he had put his mouth in foot.

And Robo: Do you think players are going to be dissing a tournament that they just won? How naive are you.

and BTW, it looks like Kenny Perry is going to be playing the PGATour this year.

http://thegolfnewsnet.com/golfnewsnetteam/2014/11/09/kenny-perry-pass-sam-snead-pga-tours-oldest-winner-8702/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

GPB wrote:
And Robo:  Do you think players are going to be dissing a tournament that they just won?  How naive are you.

Funny.. I was going to ask how much in denial are you...

Bottom line: You can deny it all you want... but earlier in this thread you let it slip and once again revealed EXACTLY WHY your feeling about the WGC's are what they are:   "Tiger Woods has little to nothing with my bias against the WGCs. A big part of TIGER is the GOAT argument is the amount of players is DEEPER than ever before. But the fact is that over 25% of his wins have been accomplished in short fields."

Your "short field" argument in the Tiger GOAT debate is so important to you, you feel you have to diminish WGC's in any and every way you can to justify it... and your bias against Tiger Woods (who's won so many WGC's) is EXACTLY the reason for your bias against WGC's.

++++

The KP thing surprises me...  No complaints from me though... he's earned his right to compete against the flat bellies if that's his choice... but I think he's kidding himself if he believes winning a PGAT event is anything more than a long shot.   I checked his OWGR line... in only 8 OWGR rated starts over the past 2 years... he hasn't come close to being competitive... 4 missed cuts and T27 the best of the bunch (but granted, he did have T28 and T27 in two majors this year... so there's that which is probably giving him the hope)

Robo:  Again, I have never said or even implied that WGC's are less than regular tour events.

I have always maintained that they are over-rated and no "bold print" on the resume.

Look who finished one shot out of the playoff.  Hiroshi Iwata, a player that mostly unknown to anyone outside Japan.  GMac said he was a good young player (He is nearly as old as GMac)

WGC's are just as easy to win as a regular tour event, maybe moreso because beating 70 something players is easier than beating 130+ players.  There is not that big of talent gap between #45 and #130 and #300.

Heck Poulter has won two WGC's events and won no full field events.

And look what Poulter did this week.  IMO, with the season he had, he should have never been invited this week.  And with his result this week, he basically secured a top 50 ranking at year end and a Masters invite.   Only one players in the top 80 going into this week had earned less OWGR points in 2014.  

Just another exhibit why I say WGC's help Top 50 players stay in the Top 50.   And with the result this week, Poulter gets into the RtD.  Its Food Stamps for the Elite Golfer.

The reason why only top 50 players win WGC's is because Top 50 are 80% of the field.

BTW, I am AOL if you want to take this offline.

GPB wrote:Robo:  Again, I have never said or even implied that WGC's are less than regular tour events.

I have always maintained that they are over-rated and no "bold print" on the resume.

Look who finished one shot out of the playoff.  Hiroshi Iwata, a player that mostly unknown to anyone outside Japan.  GMac said he was a good young player (He is nearly as old as GMac)

WGC's are just as easy to win as a regular tour event, maybe moreso because beating 70 something players is easier than beating 130+ players.  There is not that big of talent gap between #45 and #130 and #300.

Heck Poulter has won two WGC's events and won no full field events.

And look what Poulter did this week.  IMO, with the season he had, he should have never been invited this week.  And with his result this week, he basically secured a top 50 ranking at year end and a Masters invite.   Only one players in the top 80 going into this week had earned less OWGR points in 2014.  

Just another exhibit why I say WGC's help Top 50 players stay in the Top 50.   And with the result this week, Poulter gets into the RtD.  Its Food Stamps for the Elite Golfer.

The reason why only top 50 players win WGC's is because Top 50 are 80% of the field.

BTW, I am AOL if you want to take this offline.

Let me say it again as apparently you didn't see it earlier.  DEPTH of field is not the ONLY factor in what makes events prestigious.  Never has been in Golfs history, isn't now, and probably won't ever be... and to illustrate the point... hold the arguments you made above up to the Masters and you get most the EXACTLY same comparisons... IE:

You point to Hiroshi Iwata... True he was mostly an unknown... but apparently he has some game... or he wouldn't have made this field... and he was ranked OWGR #127. So even though I agree the OWGR overrates some of the small tour guys... it doesn't overrate them THAT much IMO.  Now compare him to Angel Cabrera who went into the 2013 Masters ranked #273... and he made a playoff with Adam Scott.  I'd have to say there's ample evidence Iwata was as much "in form" coming into this WGC as Cabrera was going into that Masters (despite Angel having won it 4 years prior).  

While I disagree with your argument... your suggestion of WGC's being just as easy to win as "regular events" would apply very close to equally to the Masters.

You point to Poulter's "sketchy" entry into the WGC's... Um... WHERE do you want me to start on all the "Poulter's" that get in the Masters via the OWGR top-50?   It's the same deal only worse. Masters uses top-50 from three months ahead of time... most of the WGC's use Top-50 a few weeks before (HSBC a few weeks older, but not all the OWGR top-50 necessarily get in)

And no sense rehashing the fact that players who qualify for these events have a leg up on maintaining rankings or keeping privileges over those that don't... because I AGREE with that point... always have... always will.  The only difference is I don't have near the problem with it that you do, at least as it applies to the PGA Tour (but the money gets things a lot more out of whack on the other tours).  But I don't see where it's any different now, then it has been going back into the history of the Tour... including the 60's & 70's when the games best players were getting to play TOC's, World Series, Invitationals (which were much shorter fields than today), getting seeded into final 16's of Match Play's, playing in team events with only 16 to 32 teams... etc.. etc.. etc...  

And actually the average # of players in WGC's is around 72 (counting all 4)... so on AVERAGE, if every top-50 player were to play all of them.. they would represent about 70% of the field... not 80%.  And for the Masters, it's not much better. Most the time there's only about 80 competitive players in that one... of which the top-50 represents about 60%.

DISCLAIMER: My above comparisons of WGC's to the Masters in no way shape or form should be construed to mean that I believe any WGC win is in the same league of prestige as winning the Masters or any other major for that matter. But IMO reasonable arguments can be made that at least 3 of the 4 WGC's are in fact VERY CLOSE in comparisons of actual field depth as the Masters... in some years the WGC Bridgestone possibly even a stronger field than the Masters.

Pssst....The Masters has a cut....and no guarantee of official money and no guarantee of FE Points. (Duh, Same argument as your desperate comparison to the Players a day or two ago that you abandoned mysteriously)

If the WGCs instituted a cut, I would give them more respect.

GPB wrote:Pssst....The Masters has a cut....and no guarantee of official money and no guarantee of FE Points.  (Duh, Same argument as your desperate comparison to the Players a day or two ago that you abandoned mysteriously)

If the WGCs instituted a cut, I would give them more respect.

Woosh and Sheesh... BAD on me... I missed the point.  OK somehow having cuts makes events stronger (not sure how exactly, but whatever) So how about we petition them to start cutting WGC's at 70 and ties... there... that ought to make WGC's a lot more prestigious in your eyes... and that should validate everything the players say about them... (those PC lying bastards... :-)

OK, The Hyperbolic Strawman has come out and joined the board.

A Cut Similar to the Masters cut would be my preference.

For someone that gets all sanctimonious about replaying this argument (Post on Friday Night at 6:07 pm CST) you sure do want to keep picking the scab.

I had no intentions into getting into this discussion on this forum, but you scratched the scab so it started bleeding. I even offered to take it offline on AOL this morning. Your remarks early this morning were obviously directed at me (I ignored the ones from yesterday)

I respect your opinion on the WGC's, I don't agree with them ....why don't you respect my opinion.

Tell me something.

Is a two horse race easier to win than a 5 horse race?

Is a 5 horse race easier to win than a 10 horse race?

etc. etc.

Assuming that you answer the lower amount... at one point does it change where a "Y" horse race is easier to win than a "X" horse race.

Where "Y" is approximately twice as many as "X".

Just now heard Bubba's post round interview with Curt Byrum and the first thing he said was important because it was a win "outside the US". The WGC comment was thrown at the end of interview....Sounds PC-ish.

Re: Masters and WGC

IMO: A big difference between the Masters and WGC's is the Masters pre-dates the OWGR. Whether it was intentional or not, the WGC's exploit the top-heavy OWGR SoF formulas which were before the WGC's. And that taints them.

Yes, under the current rating system (and just about any other possibly SoF rating system) the Masters and WGC are going to be rated nearly the same. But the Masters has about 50 years of history longer than the OWGR. The Masters invites have become more objective than it was 30 years ago.

For someone that does think WGC's and Majors are comparable, you sure do want to compare them.

Sorry Davie, I offered to take this offline. Robo didn't do it.

Don't apologize GPB - you too are far more entertaining than anything else going on here the last few days

I don't see any reason to take the discussion offline... because i have nothing about my views I feel needs to be hidden from critical eyes. But let's do Kwini a favor and quit crapping all over his thread and move it over to a new one I've created... Why WGC's suck... or don't...

I agree, glad to see this discussion continue somewhere else.

GPB wrote:Players are going to say the Politically correct thing.

Just not about gay or black people.  

Didn't watch any of the WGC, but really enjoyed the Sanderson Farms win for Nick Taylor - first win by a Canadian since 2009, probably 2007 for a Canadian-born golfing win.
#1 Amateur in 2009, but couldn't get on Tour - resorted to the Vancouver mini-Tour just two years ago. Brilliant putting display yesterday and good to see guys looking so pleased for him, starting with Lucas Glover who almost seemed to be cheerleading for him for the final few holes. It will be interesting to see how Taylor's career moves forward, or not, from here.

Have also enjoyed the "Fall Finish" courses at Silverado, McGladrey and now CC of Jackson's faux Donald Ross!

Stat of the week:  Tim Clark finishes 2nd in a PGATour event for the 11th straight season.

Nicklaus probably holds this record. Nicklaus finished 2nd every year from 1962 to 1985 if you include his 2nd in 1979 in the Open Championship.

Dunno,
But it's pretty bloody remarkable!
Is it coincidence that Timmy's only two Tour wins have been against other serial runners up, Allenby and Furyk?
Imagine he'll be playing as much as possible this year as his anchoring (crutch?) only has 10 months left.

kwini see my edit.

Ha! I wondered if it might be Mr.Nicklaus! Not surprised.
Phil has a 11-year run going too, I think. Not so unusual though as he usually has at least as many wins.