Scotland V New Zealand - November 15th

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Scotland v New Zealand

Date: Saturday, November 15
Venue: BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh
Kickoff: 17:30 local (GMT)
Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant Referees: Johnny Lacey (Ireland), Stuart Berry (South Africa)
TMO: Gareth Simmonds (Wales)

************************

Right this isn't one of your GC fancy pants matchday threads, I'm in charge this time.

Had originally considered calling it the 'Kiwi Krushing Kelebration' thread, but realized that'd be an inappropriate acronym...

Now onto the game, normally you'd expect to read about form / head to head here, but for reasons which I'll go onto none of that really matters because this is the year that we will finally beat the All Blacks!

Now what makes me so sure you ask, well quite simply, I've a cast iron, 100% scientific theory that proves that next weekend we will at long last neutralize New Zealand.  

2003 England win the Rugby World Cup - 3 years later they lose at Murrayfield
2007 South Africa win the Rugby World Cup - 3 years later they lose at Murrayfield
2011 New Zealand win the Rugby World Cup - 3 years later...  

Quite simply and to quote Tinie Tempah, it's "written in the stars".

Teams to be announced (not that it matters).

Scotland

15 Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors); 25 caps
14 Sean Maitland (Glasgow Warriors); 14 caps
13 Mark Bennett (Glasgow Warriors), 1 cap
12 Alex Dunbar (Glasgow Warriors); 9 caps
11 Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors); 11 caps
10 Finn Russell (Glasgow Warriors); 3 caps
9 Greig Laidlaw CAPTAIN (Gloucester); 32 caps

1 Alasdair Dickinson (Edinburgh Rugby); 37 caps
2 Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby); 78 caps
3 Euan Murray (Glasgow Warriors); 61 caps
4 Richie Gray (Castres); 40 caps
5 Jonny Gray (Glasgow Warriors); 6 caps
6 Rob Harley (Glasgow Warriors); 8 caps
7 Blair Cowan (London Irish); 4 caps
8 Adam Ashe (Glasgow Warriors); 2 caps

16 Fraser Brown (Glasgow Warriors); 1 cap
17 Gordon Reid (Glasgow Warriors); 4 caps
18 Geoff Cross (London Irish); 33 caps
19 Tim Swinson (Glasgow Warriors); 9 caps
20 Johnnie Beattie (Castres); 32 caps
21 Chris Cusiter (Sale Sharks); 68 caps
22 Duncan Weir (Glasgow Warriors); 16 caps
23 Sean Lamont (Glasgow Warriors); 89 caps

New Zealand

15 Ben Smith
14 Colin Slade
13 Malakai Fekitoa
12 Ryan Crotty
11 Charle Piutau
10 Dan Carter
09 TJ Perenara

08 Victor Vito
07 Sam Cane
06 Richie McCaw
05 Dominic Bird
04 Jeremy Thrush
03 Charlie Faumuina
02 James Parsons
01 Joe Moody

16 Dane Coles
17 Wyatt Crockett
18 Ben Franks
19 Luke Romano
20 Liam Messam
21 Augustin Pulu
22 Sonny Bill Williams
23 Julian Savea.

One thing's for sure, with Williams and Savea to come on it certainly means that Scottish substitutions will have to be very carefully considered if ,probably a big if, we find ourselves still in contention mid way through the second half. Last weeks subs did nothing to improve the Scottish performance, my feeling is if things are going well leave players on for the whole 80.

Just seen the scotland selection. Elated with the picks. Come on boys, make us proud!!
I really like what VC is doing, he's picked the right blend and best squad, now down to the boys to deliver. Can't wait!!!!!!!!!!!

Scotland team v New Zealand at BT Murrayfield
Saturday 15 November (kick-off 5.30pm)

15 Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors); 25 caps
14 Sean Maitland  (Glasgow Warriors); 14 caps
13 Mark Bennett  (Glasgow Warriors), 1 cap
12 Alex Dunbar (Glasgow Warriors); 9 caps
11 Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors); 11 caps

10 Finn Russell (Glasgow Warriors); 3 caps
9 Greig Laidlaw CAPTAIN (Gloucester); 32 caps

1 Alasdair Dickinson (Edinburgh Rugby); 37 caps
2 Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby); 78 caps
3 Euan Murray (Glasgow Warriors); 61 caps
4 Richie Gray (Castres); 40 caps
5 Jonny Gray  (Glasgow Warriors); 6 caps
6 Rob Harley (Glasgow Warriors); 8 caps
7 Blair Cowan (London Irish); 4 caps
8 Adam Ashe (Glasgow Warriors); 2 caps

Substitutes

16 Fraser Brown (Glasgow Warriors); 1 cap
17 Gordon Reid (Glasgow Warriors); 4 caps
18 Geoff Cross (London Irish); 33 caps
19 Tim Swinson (Glasgow Warriors); 9 caps
20 Johnnie Beattie (Castres); 32 caps
21 Chris Cusiter (Sale Sharks); 68 caps
22 Duncan Weir (Glasgow Warriors); 16 caps
23 Sean Lamont (Glasgow Warriors); 89 caps

Got to be happy with that

100% happy with that, particularly the bench!

Bizarre ABs team. As everyone else remarked Slade on the wing is wierd. He would make a good boxer, really long arms but the jury is out is he will have any impact on the wing.

The team in general is odd. Hope Scotland win. They might.

Also do you have to be a bird to play 4,5 and 6 for NZ?

McCaw, Thrush and Bird. Everythibng about this team is wierd. im tempted to change my prediction.

I know it’s still very early days in his reign and things could go badly wrong from here, but got to be impressed by Cotter so far. He’s picked a team who are in form, in their correct positions (twice), he’s got us playing a style of rugby that suits us, and seemingly given the players license to play what’s in front of them.

When was the last time we had that!?

EWT Spoons wrote:I know it’s still very early days in his reign and things could go badly wrong from here, but got to be impressed by Cotter so far.  He’s picked a team who are in form, in their correct positions (twice), he’s got us playing a style of rugby that suits us, and seemingly given the players license to play what’s in front of them.

When was the last time we had that!?

Yep, good times for Scotland. Will be nervous when Ireland play them away this year.

You'd think it'd make sense to play Ben Smith on the wing and Slade at FB? My only thought is the ABs want them to interchange throughout the match?

NZ by around 15-20 is my prediction.

EWT Spoons wrote:I know it’s still very early days in his reign and things could go badly wrong from here, but got to be impressed by Cotter so far.  He’s picked a team who are in form, in their correct positions (twice), he’s got us playing a style of rugby that suits us, and seemingly given the players license to play what’s in front of them.

When was the last time we had that!?

By the same token, one would argue that's what a regular* head coach should do. I think that our standards and expectations might have dropped in these lean years.

* Not mad, not a quipmeister, not Scott Johnson, not consumed with ideas about playing Kelly Brown at scrum half this time, because oooh we haven't tried that one yet.

That is almost entirely the team and bench I wanted to see. So nice having a coach who appears to have watched the players before picking the team.

The ABs have gone for mass rotation so hopefully we can punish them a bit.

Given availabilities (or lack of) I wouldnt change any of this squad.
The only players who could challenge IMO are:
Primary, Scott, Denton, Grant, Fusaro, Welch, Brown (K).
Secondary, Barclay, Visser, Gilchrist, Hall, Rennie.
But all these are injured, returning or not on form.
I'm elated with our 23 for the game, and to have these guys above in reserve is a great position to be in.

George Carlin wrote:Sorry Graham - the OP has become marginally more Fancy Pants, but only functionally so I hope.

You just couldn't let me have my moment could you!

George Carlin wrote:

EWT Spoons wrote:I know it’s still very early days in his reign and things could go badly wrong from here, but got to be impressed by Cotter so far.  He’s picked a team who are in form, in their correct positions (twice), he’s got us playing a style of rugby that suits us, and seemingly given the players license to play what’s in front of them.

When was the last time we had that!?

By the same token, one would argue that's what a regular* head coach should do. I think that our standards and expectations might have dropped in these lean years.

* Not mad, not a quipmeister, not Scott Johnson, not consumed with ideas about playing Kelly Brown at scrum half this time, because oooh we haven't tried that one yet.

100% agree, but we've had some interesting head coaches of late, it seems we've hit upon a perfect blend of players being on form and a coach knowing who they are and how to use them.

For clairty I'm not getting carried away here, I realise that we are still a long way off from actually challenging for anything, but it's a step in the right direction.

GLove39 wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Sorry Graham - the OP has become marginally more Fancy Pants, but only functionally so I hope.

You just couldn't let me have my moment could you!

Still your thread, squire and all analysis is untouched.

I also decided not to put this graphic next to your name:

So basically, I was very restrained, I think.

George Carlin wrote:

GLove39 wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Sorry Graham - the OP has become marginally more Fancy Pants, but only functionally so I hope.

You just couldn't let me have my moment could you!

Still your thread, squire and all analysis is untouched.

I also decided not to put this graphic next to your name:

So basically, I was very restrained, I think.

How the hell did you get my nursery portrait?

Personally I must say I agree with what hansen is doing here with his squad.

It is not a case of him taking Scotland lightly,its a case of him rehearsing the situation that presents itself of how you go about putting a starting xv on the field when playing a World cup semi Final.

I fit turns it custard, then bring on the bench.

Totally agree Laurie-here's now I see the team.

15 Ben Smith - give him a run in the position many feel his best
14 Colin Slade - a utility-he and Bender will swap a lot I feel
13 Malakai Fekitoa - his best position and needs time-game breaker
12 Ryan Crotty - see above but a great balance. Underrated
11 Charle Piutau - gamebreaker who can play 11, 14 and 15. See 2013
10 Dan Carter - GOAT. Enough said.
09 TJ Perenara - brilliant close out last week-needs time

08 Victor Vito - great skills but can Scotland exploit physicality?
07 Sam Cane - physically great now-ask SA last year.
06 Richie McCaw GOAT 7. Physical? Two fetchers-dangerous for Scot.
05 Dominic Bird-two of our locks are hurt. What do you expect?
04 Jeremy Thrush-see above.
03 Charlie Faumuina-needs to improve scrummaging and fitness-best to do it from 80 and rest Franks for Wales
02 James Parsons-big call. Can Scotland exploit lineouts
01 Joe Moody-Crockett needs a rest and Woodcock's home.

We've got a bit of ammo on the bench but no real calm head which is why Slade's on the wing. That's the second goalkicker. SBW destroyed Scotland in 2010 and he can cover 12 13 and wing. All going well skip will come off at 50, if not well look at his engine. Kaino's hurt too so Messam's there. I like Romano a lot and he needs to get back ASAP. Retallick's blinder of a season has set the mark for him-he's good enough to put pressure on him and IMO was ahead of Retallick (just) before he got hurt.

The WC prep is logical-we're preparing for injuries in a sh*t hitting the fan scenario. Before anyone complains that it's drastic, remember that we didn't expect to have our best two 10s crocked in one game.

Who will lead the haka?

Yes, Disney you are right, but it goes even further than the selection of individual players, its also the whole squad on a campaign and the variables that can be thrown up at an International coach.

The current campaign is:

Pool game: U.S.A.
Quarter final:England.
Semi Final: Scotland.
Final : Wales.

If there are any lessons to be learnt, its better that they raise their ugly heads now.

aucklandlaurie wrote:Yes, Disney you are right, but it goes even further than the selection of individual players, its also the whole squad on a campaign and the variables that can be thrown up at an International coach.

The current campaign is:

Pool game: U.S.A.
Quarter final:England.
Semi Final: Scotland.
Final : Wales.

If there are any lessons to be learnt, its better that they raise their ugly heads now.

The IRFU asked NZ for a test too but NZ turned them down.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Who will lead the haka?

On that subject, plan for responding. Team stands back on the 22, Maitland trots up to half way and does one back to NZ.

GunsGerms wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:Yes, Disney you are right, but it goes even further than the selection of individual players, its also the whole squad on a campaign and the variables that can be thrown up at an International coach.

The current campaign is:

Pool game: U.S.A.
Quarter final:England.
Semi Final: Scotland.
Final : Wales.

If there are any lessons to be learnt, its better that they raise their ugly heads now.

The IRFU asked NZ for a test too but NZ turned them down.

G&G: Everyone wants to play New Zealand, there comes a point when someone has to say enough is enough, most of the All Blacks have been playing since early February and we are now half way through November and still going, its not that long ago that Ireland played New Zealand four times in one year, youve got to be patient and wait your turn.

The most was three times in one year. England have played NZ four times this year. NZ should have played the NH champions instead.

Sorry, may be it was in a 12 month period as in a November test then three games in June down here, or the other way round. but I think you get the point I was making.

I presume that the All blacks fixture list for the year (2014) was filled in before we knew who the 6nations champions were. when did you win the six nations?

France had four last year. I'm quite glad we're not playing Ireland at present!

Messam will lead the haka.

Scots out there you think Harley can dominate physically against this smaller NZ back row?

Yes, in this situation a game against ireland may not be that positive at all, as we all predicted Ireland were always going to improve this year.

aucklandlaurie wrote:Sorry, may be it was in a 12 month period as in a November test then three games in June down here, or the other way round. but I think you get the point I was making.

I presume that the All blacks fixture list for the year (2014) was filled in before we knew who the 6nations champions were. when did you win the six nations?

Afraid we didnt even get that luxury.

As you pointed out above chilly, the two fetchers worries me a bit. Our attacking game needs quick ball and yours will thrive on turnovers. We need to be clever about where and how we carry into contact and our back row will have to work really hard to support the carrier and secure ball. Will come down to fitness & brains as much as physicality.

disneychilly wrote:France had four last year. I'm quite glad we're not playing Ireland at present!

Messam will lead the haka.

Scots out there you think Harley can dominate physically against this smaller NZ back row?

It's a tough ask being up against an outfit that includes the Master & the Apprentice.
I'm very wary of that backrow, reminds me of Robinson's masterstorke of playing two 7's against Australia. But hopefully we'll see the likes of Ford & the Grays smashing rucks as well.

GunsGerms wrote: The IRFU asked NZ for a test too but NZ turned them down.

Thats interesting. After England beat New Zealand in their fourth game in 2012 and NZ also arranged their shirt sponsorship to replace the missing money, I understood NZ were limiting their European games. However, from an Irish point of view, would this have been in addition to the 3 games they are playing or replace Georgia or one of the other 2? Judging by how they started off, seeing Ireland v the big SH 3 in successive weekends would have been very interesting.

I can't see the IRFU arranging 4 fixtures in November, that must go against the player management policy?

Well England played 4 plus we can always put a B team out against SA.

GunsGerms wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

In hindsight, I'm definitely glad we played England before either Ireland or Scotland as we probably wouldn't have taken either anywhere near as seriously as England- our 'perceived' biggest foe of the 4. It's clear both sides were well prepared for both their opening matches and I think the Boks copped it instead of us with this years draw.

Thankfully, our eyes are now wide open for the next two...

Given Irelands performance v NZ last year and the clue that they are NH champions that may have been a little naive. Never understood why Kiwis are so in awe of England.

Pehaps it's because England have actually beat them.......

GLove39 wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Who will lead the haka?

On that subject, plan for responding. Team stands back on the 22, Maitland trots up to half way and does one back to NZ.

Superb precedent for that, of course:

George Carlin wrote:

GLove39 wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Who will lead the haka?

On that subject, plan for responding. Team stands back on the 22, Maitland trots up to half way and does one back to NZ.

Superb precedent for that, of course:

As awesome as that was, the Munster kiwis are a lot scarier than Sean Maitland!

RDW_Scotland wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

GLove39 wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Who will lead the haka?

On that subject, plan for responding. Team stands back on the 22, Maitland trots up to half way and does one back to NZ.

Superb precedent for that, of course:

As awesome as that was, the Munster kiwis are a lot scarier than Sean Maitland!

Nonsense, Maitland is bloody terrifying

GLove39 wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

GLove39 wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Who will lead the haka?

On that subject, plan for responding. Team stands back on the 22, Maitland trots up to half way and does one back to NZ.

Superb precedent for that, of course:

As awesome as that was, the Munster kiwis are a lot scarier than Sean Maitland!

Nonsense, Maitland is bloody terrifying

I'm sure Blair Cowan could join in too!

Anglobraveheart wrote:Just seen the scotland selection. Elated with the picks. Come on boys, make us proud!!
I really like what VC is doing, he's picked the right blend and best squad, now down to the boys to deliver. Can't wait!!!!!!!!!!!

Yup - really like Big Vern so far!   Makes the right noises, picks look really good.

aucklandlaurie wrote: Personally I must say I agree with what hansen is doing here with his squad.

It is not a case of him taking Scotland lightly,its a case of him rehearsing the situation that presents itself of how you go about putting a starting xv on the field when playing a World cup semi Final.

I fit turns it custard, then bring on the bench.

Indeed - to challenge at the WC you need 2 players in every position. 30 first team.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

In hindsight, I'm definitely glad we played England before either Ireland or Scotland as we probably wouldn't have taken either anywhere near as seriously as England- our 'perceived' biggest foe of the 4. It's clear both sides were well prepared for both their opening matches and I think the Boks copped it instead of us with this years draw.

Thankfully, our eyes are now wide open for the next two...

Given Irelands performance v NZ last year and the clue that they are NH champions that may have been a little naive. Never understood why Kiwis are so in awe of England.

Pehaps it's because England have actually beat them.......

geez guns 'in awe' is a bit over the top. Can't say we've ever been in awe of them. But the fact remains aside from England its been over 50 years since any of the other 3 have had a win so your perception of 'naive' cuts both ways. 'Close' and 'whoever won the 6N' are not ingredients that are going to have the AB's running for cover. Ireland won the 6N last year yes but England also beat them so in terms of who the better side is from a NZ point of view does not necessarily make that Ireland, because other factors come into play- ability to have won in the past certainly one of them

My point was there may have been enough of under prep by the AB's and an excellent showing by Ireland on the weekend to suggest Ireland rather than England might have had a better chance vs the ABs last weekend- and thats only in hindsight.

Ive seen a few comments pertaining to Maitland and the Haka, just thought Id share the following little story from this mornings Herald:


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11358164

Do the ABs call McCaw, Rico? Not heard that one before. Presumably its rickshaw Rico and not Rico Gear Rico.

"The expectation is that the Scots will start the game with a hiss and a roar and try to play wide and fast. The Scots are a bit new to this pass and run malarkey and the All Blacks are hopeful that if they can apply maximum pressure at the breakdown, they may profit greatly. One of them has to be the openside and that will be Sam and Rico [McCaw] is going to have to adjust his game and become the six," says All Blacks head coach Steve Hansen."

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11358156

ps. It was the journalist that used the condescending tone regarding Scotland and running/passing and not anyone associated with the ABs.

ebop wrote:Do the ABs call McCaw, Rico? Not heard that one before. Presumably its rickshaw Rico and not Rico Gear Rico.

"The expectation is that the Scots will start the game with a hiss and a roar and try to play wide and fast.  The Scots are a bit new to this pass and run malarkey and the All Blacks are hopeful that if they can apply maximum pressure at the breakdown, they may profit greatly. One of them has to be the openside and that will be Sam and Rico [McCaw] is going to have to adjust his game and become the six," says All Blacks head coach Steve Hansen."

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11358156

ps. It was the journalist that used the condescending tone regarding Scotland and running/passing and not anyone associated with the ABs.

saw that on Engage last night ebop. The comments about the Scottish defence were interesting I thought. They throttled Argentina by having that tight close in cover on the Argie insides. The panel agreed that if they do that against the AB's they'll be fodder out wide with the AB ability to get the ball to the wings far superior to Argie. So that will be interesting how Cotter manages his backline. Unfortunately Aaron Smiths pass is a far better combatant of a tight inside defence as he can usually go straight to 12 before they get up.

I have harboured ambiguous feelings about the AB's for some time now. Yes they are consistently the most successful side in world rugby, but ... there's always a but.
A few years ago I went along to Murrayfield almost as excited at the prospect of seeing the ABs in the flesh as my beloved Scotland. They hammered Scotland and that didn't bother me too much, but what did was the eighty minutes of cynical cheating which I witnessed. I felt collusive just watching it.
Regardless of the result on Saturday Hansen has already won the mind games. If Scotland win: well it was against a second string team. If Scotland lose: jeez just how bad are you guys?
More and more often when I watch the AB's I am reminded of Banquo's comment on Macbeth, and I paraphrase "You have it all, but I fear you played most foully for it."

Thanks Tman, missed Engage last night as wifey has a mortgage on the remote Will check a replay today. Yeah Smith has been great this year. He seems to be more consistent between games as well, consistently good. I wonder if he has been given more responsibility in the team and he is thriving on that.

Jimbo, I dont know whose been filling your head with all this rubbish but the All Blacks do not cheat, you probably need to listen more to some of us Kiwi guys who know what we're talking about when it comes to rugby.

Last week there were still English posters coming on here saying how Richie McCaw is a cheat, or enjoys immunity from the referees etc etc, the fact is he doesnt cheat. Sure rugby at all levels in New Zealand can get very competitive, but thats what teaches us to be fully aware of rugby law and its application to play, because to not do so, gives your opponent a very big advantage.

Every team occasionally "cheats" to gain an advantage. Call it bending the rules or being cute, but it happens in every rugby competition at every level worldwide.

Picking out one team as the cheaters in chief is as silly as claiming your team doesn't cheat. Playing the referee and getting away with it, exploiting the blind spots in his specific interpretation of the laws, is one of the most important parts of professional rugby. There's a whole lot of grey area to play with in the laws and the best teams will extract the maximum advantage from those grey areas.

Yeah, the AB's don't cheat and your reply was neither patronising nor insulting.
The match I attended had the highly unusual statistic that not one scrum collapsed on the AB put in but 50% collapsed on the Scotland put in, and almost all of them when Scotland were in attacking positions. But that's not cheating is it?

Auckland, you seem like a decent fella for an Aussie......
It was me that commented on Tuesday morning that McCaw was a cheat. Whilst I am most definitely NOT English, (and struggle to embrace their rugby persona) it was pretty blatant the way that McCaw came in from the side when England were threatening the NZ line. His careful calculated penalty give-aways at various strategic points during the rest of this game (and others) is typical of his measured approach to cheating, combined with the 'protection' received in being the captain, He well and truly milks this to best advantage.
Now then, if this is being "fully aware of the laws", then I think a point has been stretched to extreme distortion.
As I said previously, I just hope that Romain Poite has large enough cahoonas to do the right thing and get these offenders into the bin, regardless of which nation they hail from or whether they are the captain or not.
Please also understand that despite the myopia of the NZ Herald, the general impression I have of NZ (or Aussie) posters on here are fair, balanced and refreshing.
Your captain however, is a bandit.
Your teams rugby is clinical, often pure and simple natural genius, but often tainted by needless gamesmanship. (cheating).
I look forward to a fabulous match on Saturday, and in many ways it promises to be a new beginning for many on both sides.

Almost regardless of whether the AB's and other sides are good at professional cheating (for want of a better name), or not. What you can actually say with some certainty is that Scotland have been particularly bad at it and seem to spend far to many games on the wrong end of refereeing decisions.

That is partly due to confidence, or lack of it in Scotland's case brought about by our sustained lack of success, you can kind of see that even the players at times sort of accept that decisions are going to go against them. Refs as well always seem to favour who they perceive as the more dominant side, a situation which again, NZ will do well in and we will do badly.

It will be interesting to see, if it is true that we are finally developing a side worthy of taking some notice of, how this will pan out with our relationship with refs. It certainly did not seem to be much changed last weekend when we were clearly on top but again on the wrong end of some pretty poor decisions and cards and penalty tries from the officials. It will be interesting to see how that pans out this weekend.