Ireland v Georgia Sunday 16th

First topic message reminder :

Hi all,

Feel like this post can go up now that the dust is starting to settle on what was a very good win at the weekend.
Plenty of positives to take including the effective defense, the tenuous breakdown work and excellent control from the halfbacks. Some things could still be considered work ons including our attack with ball in hand, lineout and scrum.

Georgia, with all due respect, should be an easy game (echoes of 2007). Tonga beat them 23-6. Georgia failed to score a point in the second half and all of Tonga's tries came in the final 20minutes. Without wanting to sound too simplistic, it would appear as if Georgia are quite unfit albeit very physical while still on their feet. As a developed playing nation we should benefit from a number of things but the main one should be organisation and preparation. I am expecting a 100% return from our lineout, some later success in securing turnovers and our defensive shape to hold firm.

To put it bluntly, I don't believe that Georgia have any right scoring a point against us.............................with all due respect.

Injuries still account for a fair bit of our squad, other than the original cast who were down and out we have possibly lost Payne for this one, Best may be back, Henry should be back if it was just a virus and Darcy should be available also.

Any game day news, predictions, wish-lists etc pop it down below.
Much love,
Pete

GunsGerms wrote:I wouldnt be surprised if Sin was a Leinster fan parodying a Munster fan.

It all makes sense now!

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:You don't want your coach to be too nice though. And you certainly do NOT want him to ever think anything is ever good enough- constant improvement is always the target.

A pity he didn't have similar words with Sean Cronin a few years ago.  

Maybe he did.  How many Leinster backroom sessions did you sit through when he was coach there, sin?

Did Murray say a Phone or Phone book was thrown at him?  Did he say there was spittle coming out of the mouth of a wild eyed and dangerous looking Schmidt?  Or did he just get told he slipped up on something and then listen in as Joe did the circle and told other players little things they slipped up on?

JOE ATTACKS MUNSTER PLAYER AS LEINSTER BOYS LOOK ON!

The shame of it.

If he did, he should have learned that it didn't work.

Murray didn't say anything. It was Gerry Thornley who told the story, no doubt told to him by any number of about 50 people who would have been present in the dressing room.

GunsGerms wrote:.

Kurtley Beale could play v Ireland. Aparently he is flying out to join the squad now.

Kurtley is in the air again?????

God Help us ALL. I hope the World survives the trip.

The Ireland team is interesting. I am very disappointed in Marmion not starting (and Reddan as Captain removes the opportunity for a fullhalf each), but must trust Joe on this one. I think we will win by 25.

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:You don't want your coach to be too nice though. And you certainly do NOT want him to ever think anything is ever good enough- constant improvement is always the target.

A pity he didn't have similar words with Sean Cronin a few years ago.  

Maybe he did.  How many Leinster backroom sessions did you sit through when he was coach there, sin?

Did Murray say a Phone or Phone book was thrown at him?  Did he say there was spittle coming out of the mouth of a wild eyed and dangerous looking Schmidt?  Or did he just get told he slipped up on something and then listen in as Joe did the circle and told other players little things they slipped up on?

JOE ATTACKS MUNSTER PLAYER AS LEINSTER BOYS LOOK ON!

The shame of it.

If he did, he should have learned that it didn't work.

Murray didn't say anything. It was Gerry Thornley who told the story, no doubt told to him by any number of about 50 people who would have been present in the dressing room.

Exactly...Murray didn't say anthing.  But a journalist did.  You clung to it, you repeated it here..... and it's Schmidt up to his old tricks again of causing controversy with his methods.  

Schmidt is a trouble maker.... he shouldn't be making a circus of his tenure.  He's disrespecting his role by letting these leaks out.

Oh and I almost forgot - It does work.  It does work.  Schmidt outlining minor details that players want to forget does work.

Scratch away Sin..the confusion is all with you

So

Kilcoyne
Strauss
Ross
Foley
McCarthy
D Ryan
T O'Donnell
R Diack
Reddan
Madigan
Darcy
Cave
Gilroy
Jones

Bench

Cronin
McGrath
Ah You
Toner
Copeland
Marmion
Keatley
Olding

Such a 'let's have everyone get a game move'. Don't know how much you can take from a game of all predominantly second string.

We are seriously rolling the dice hoping Ross doesn't pick up a knock against a monster front row.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Such a 'let's have everyone get a game move'.  Don't know how much you can take from a game of all predominantly second string.

We are seriously rolling the dice hoping Ross doesn't pick up a knock against a monster front row.

Completely disagree. Its a warm up for our easier group games. Completely the right thing to do. We need two teams to win the world cup.

Ross needs game time having been out for so long. There isnt much choice but to play him.

15. Felix Jones 27(Shannon/Munster) 7
14. Craig Gilroy 23(Dungannon/Ulster) 5
13. Darren Cave 28?(Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) 7
12. Gordon D'Arcy 34(Lansdowne/Leinster) 79
11. Simon Zebo 24(Cork Constitution/Munster) 9
10. Ian Madigan 27(Blackrock/Leinster) 11
9. Eoin Reddan 34(Lansdowne/Leinster) 56 CAPTAIN

8. Robbie Diack 29(Malone/Ulster) 1
7. Tommy O'Donnell 27(UL Bohemians/Munster) 5
6. Dominic Ryan 24(Lansdowne/Leinster) *
5. Mike McCarthy 32(Lansdowne/Leinster) 16
4. Dave Foley 26(UL Bohemians/Munster) *
3. Mike Ross 34(Clontarf/Leinster) 42
2. Richardt Strauss 28(Old Wesley/Leinster) 5
1. Dave Kilcoyne 25(UL Bohemians/Munster) 11

Replacements
16. Sean Cronin 28(St Mary's College/Leinster) 36
17. Jack McGrath 25(St Mary's College/Leinster) 11
18. Rodney Ah You 26(Buccaneers/Connacht) 2
19. Devin Toner 28(Lansdowne/Leinster) 18
20. Robin Copeland 27?(Young Munster/Munster) *
21. Kieran Marmion 22(Galwegians/Connacht) 2
22. Ian Keatley 27(Young Munster/Munster) 2
23. Stuart Olding 21(Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) 1


Nearly half the squad have 5 or less caps but its experienced enough in terms of age.

Big game for Zebo to show us this "x factor" everyone is talking about. He will need a big game to oust Trimble and Bowe in the long term anyway.

GunsGerms wrote:Big game for Zebo to show us this "x factor" everyone is talking about. He will need a big game to oust Trimble and Bowe in the long term anyway.

Have Trimble or Bowe ever played on the left wing for Schmidt?

I think you will find that Bowe & Trimble will be fighting it out for the right wing (and Bowe will be the winner there).

Zebo will be fighting it out for the left wing with Daverage & Luke.

Had you ever seen Henshaw and Payne play 12 and 13 for Ireland before?

GunsGerms wrote:Had you ever seen Henshaw and Payne play 12 and 13 for Ireland before?

How could I see Payne playing at 13 for Ireland before - it was his first cap.

Henshaw only earned his 2nd cap, so its not as though he has been playing a lot of international rugby to set a precedent.

I'm not at all surprised he has been put at 12 (and is likely to be left there for a while). An easier position for him to play in with his size and the defence is easier than at 13.

You are witnessing a green and blue rugby revolution. Just sit back and enjoy the ride Sin.

GunsGerms wrote:You are witnessing a green and blue rugby revolution. Just sit back and enjoy the ride Sin.

Guns, I've seen it all before. All good things do come to an end What then?

Why not just enjoy it while it lasts?

Who says I'm not enjoying it?

Sin é wrote:Who says I'm not enjoying it?

Could have fooled me.

GunsGerms wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Such a 'let's have everyone get a game move'.  Don't know how much you can take from a game of all predominantly second string.

We are seriously rolling the dice hoping Ross doesn't pick up a knock against a monster front row.

Completely disagree. Its a warm up for our easier group games. Completely the right thing to do. We need two teams to win the world cup.

Ross needs game time having been out for so long. There isnt much choice but to play him.

Afraid I 100% disagree right back at you. The only way these kids make it to a level that they can be dropped into the starting side come the rwc is if they are stepping into a structure that contains more 1st teamers. I'd much prefer blooding an extra 2-3 players in the SA and Oz games rather than what we are going to have, which is an over-commitment and a premature-commitment to a first string leaving the rest of the squad to hold tackle bags and try and put on a show against the perverbial minnows.

Schmidt already picked Payne and Henshaw for their first caps in the positions that they were picked in v SA. 2 to 3 more debutants would be ridiculous. Glad you arent Ireland coach.

While at the world cup Ireland will be picking a B team against Canada and Romania so it is completely reasonable to test out potential b sides before then.

Do you lads ever get bored of arguing about the same things.


Anyone know what Georgia are like? They should have a competitive pack at least.

profitius wrote:Do you lads ever get bored of arguing about the same things.


Anyone know what Georgia are like? They should have a competitive pack at least.

All I know about them is what Bernard Jackman said on Against the Head the other night.They had a 60 minute training match against Fiji a few weeks ago and it had to be called off after 20 minutes cos Fiji were rampant (I think he said they scored 7 tries)..Decent pack but nothing in the backs is what I'm expecting to see.

One weird thing I've seen is that the bookies handicap was 39.5 pts early in the week,now that a hugely changed team has been named the handicap has gone out to 41.5 pts.There must be some money going on Ireland to beat that margin.

GunsGerms wrote:Schmidt already picked Payne and Henshaw for their first caps in the positions that they were picked in v SA. 2 to 3 more debutants would be ridiculous. Glad you arent Ireland coach.

While at the world cup Ireland will be picking a B team against Canada and Romania so it is completely reasonable to test out potential b sides before then.

I think you should all be more than glad that I'm not the Ireland coach!!

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Schmidt already picked Payne and Henshaw for their first caps in the positions that they were picked in v SA. 2 to 3 more debutants would be ridiculous. Glad you arent Ireland coach.

While at the world cup Ireland will be picking a B team against Canada and Romania so it is completely reasonable to test out potential b sides before then.

I think you should all be more than glad that I'm not the Ireland coach!!

You have Zebo scoring more tries in a free agent roving position?

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Big game for Zebo to show us this "x factor" everyone is talking about. He will need a big game to oust Trimble and Bowe in the long term anyway.

Have Trimble or Bowe ever played on the left wing for Schmidt?

I think you will find that Bowe & Trimble will be fighting it out for the right wing (and Bowe will be the winner there).

Zebo will be fighting it out for the left wing with Daverage & Luke.

You think so? Bowe hasn't played on the right wing for Ireland or Ulster when Trimble is available in quite some time. Trimble has been in much better form.

If Payne is doubtful for Australia I would have much rather Henshaw got some time with Darcy/Cave or whoever Schmidt thinks is next in line.

What are the chance of Best or Henry playing against Australia now? I'd imagine if they feature it will be from the bench and depend on how Ruddock and Strauss get on in this one.

Good team selection from Joe - it's great to see a coach who is actually planning for the RWC for a change.

For those who think this is a B team - think again, this is an eliminator all over the park. Remember there are only 30 members of the RWC squad and 23 will be involved in every game so there won't be A and B sides but 30 man rotation. It doesn't look good for Ah you who probably thought this was a chance to push his claim to go as third Tighthead, and yet he still isn't trusted enough to start this game despite Ross playing 70 against the Bokke and only a 6 day turnaround to Australia. Archer is fit so he must be even further down the list - so the logical inference is that Schmidt is looking at Moore and White to make up his TH quota.

These AI's were always about identifying the post BOD midfield so Joe is wheeling out the next candidates - there will only be three first choice Centres make the plane. I expect Cave to be subbed with Olding at some stage.

Probably the two players I want to see most operate under Joe is Olding and Earls.  I think there is excitement in how those two players might operate under a Joe regime....
BUT................  there is also the risk that rather than accentuating their nip and dodge, Schmidt might be of a mind to solidify it or dampen it all down - Dave Kearney Greyscale it as it were or, indeed, Zebodise it....!

I'm not sure we should ever be looking for sparks from Joe as International coach, regardless of how he ran the Leinster show.  Ireland International seems a much more staid and pragmatic template.

But I guess the weekend's game is the kind of game that might suggest there is all a long a much more fluid, darting, opportunistic blueprint ready, willing and able to be implemented for the right opposition.

Interesting article about the relative size and strength of Irish players v SA in particular and the wrestling culture in Georgia. The Dr makes reference to the culture of Eastern Europeans wrestling and gymnastics. It's also interesting to look at the comparable sizes of the team that lined out last week v this. I think it's fairly obvious that size is probably the first box to be ticked now between two players competing for the same position. It worked bringing in Ruddock v SA but I hope if O'Donnell plays well tomorrow he will in the team v Australia. They will kill us at the breakdown without a specialist open side.
There are two Romanian brothers in the youth team I coach. They both get sent back every summer and spend 4 hours every morning on wrestling and gymnastics. In comparison with the other guys they are way ahead strength wise and are extremely flexible which helps enormously with injury prevention.
We have asked their dad to help coach and started to include wrestling and a very limited form of gymnastics in our fitness work and it is definitely improving their overall conditioning.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/size-does-matter-but-how-much-297934.html

Send those two Romanian brothers over to Irish Passport school and find them an Irish granny. Although the Irish granny threory didn't do us much good last night.

Submachine wrote:Interesting article about the relative size and strength of Irish players v SA in particular and the wrestling culture in Georgia. The Dr makes reference to the culture of Eastern Europeans wrestling and gymnastics. It's also interesting to look at the comparable sizes of the team that lined out last week v this. I think it's fairly obvious that size is probably the first box to be ticked now between two players competing for the same position. It worked bringing in Ruddock v SA but I hope if O'Donnell plays well tomorrow he will in the team v Australia. They will kill us at the breakdown without a specialist open side.
There are two Romanian brothers in the youth team I coach. They both get sent back every summer and spend 4 hours every morning on wrestling and gymnastics. In comparison with the other guys they are way ahead strength wise and are extremely flexible which helps enormously with injury prevention.
We have asked their dad to help coach and started to include wrestling and a very limited form of gymnastics in our fitness work and it is definitely improving their overall conditioning.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/size-does-matter-but-how-much-297934.html

Size is important but some people go overboard. My view is theres an optimal size for rugby. Too big and you become less mobile, too small and you lack physicality. Most top tier sides are in the same size range. People obsess about being too small but theres another side to the size coin.

Look at Tony Buckley. Man mountain, good handling ability and was able to carry the ball well etc but never got to grip with scrums. He should have been a tighthead lock IMO but thats another story. People criticised his workrate but he was probably just a little too big to be very mobile. Will Skelton is impressive also but he can't start internationals because he wouldn't last the pace. I'd say he'll have to lose a few stone if he can.

France usually select a different kind of pack than the home nations. Every nation is slightly different but France selects big lock forwards and get their (usually lightweight) backrow to do most of the jumping in the lineouts. The big locks are their to add ballast to the pack.

I'd question that article and Liam Hennessy. Wasn't he part of the 07 world cup calamity where a strong Ireland squad spent months bulking up in spala and then produced their worst performances ever? I might be wrong but himself and Eddie O'Sulliavn fell out around that time. So much for size.

For me its all about what you can bring to the table pound for pound. Skills, workrate, speed, intelligence etc are all important too. NZ are the best team in the world and have a good balance to their team. Even scrums are as much about technique as physicality.

I've spoken about this a number of times and almost every time I do get the response that I'm overdoing the idea that Ireland players could be bigger and physically appear often less bulked than their opponents.  Genuine hard muscle I'm talking about - not pumped fluff stuff  I'm not talking shape, I'm talking added muscle bulk that plays a part in helping players get through games, get through series of games.

Now, some do hark back to 2007.  O'Driscoll himself talked about the disaster of Eddie O'Sullivan's world cup fiasco, when Ireland were so satisfied with their playing skills that they instead decided to use up precious preparation time to go into the gym and bulk up.  And boy did they look the thing when they arrived at the world cup....but they were all over the place as players.
Some might point out that famous 2007 juxtapositioning of bulk verses skills as an example of bulk ups not being necessary and actually counter productive.
But I wouldn't consider the episode as a good example considering that the issue with O'Driscoll himself was that the gym stuff was isolated from continuous work on skills.  The Irish players stopped playing and it was the rustiness of skills that killed them, not their new toned bulk.

And then I'd add more of what Paul O'Connell said in interview recently (part of which is quoted in the article mentioned by Submachine).  Now POC knows what he talks about because he's played all the top teams and suffered against many if not all of them.  He knows what it takes to make the job easier and he knows what his teams get hit with that make their job more difficult than need be:

“I think you need a big man that is willing to stop a team mauling, that is going to work hard at scrums, that is going to shift people in rucks.
“I don’t really know if that is an ‘enforcer’. It’s a physical contact game and you can’t let teams maul you, you can’t get mauled by teams. Scrums are a massive part of the game in terms of producing opportunities for your backline. In the past they were a big source of penalties for a team so therefore a big source of either territory or points for teams.
“There is no doubt about it, the physical part of the game is suited to the South Africans. It’s a massive part of rugby and Bakkies Botha played a fantastic part in that for them the last few years and Eben Etzebeth has been the same over the last few years. There is no doubt having big athletic men helps you be successful in rugby.”
“A big part of Joe’s work with Jason Cowman [Ireland's fitness and conditioning] is trying to bring on that part of the Irish squad’s profile. We have some great athletes but we could be bigger as well, we could be more physical. If we can add that to the smartness we show, the good kicking game we showed with our provinces and with Ireland, we have the potential to be an excellent rugby team."

I agree with him.  Skills primary, tactics and gameplans and strategy very important...and the shield of physique to allow players to play and sustain play through rough series.

Ireland up to 3rd in the world now. Have to beat Georgia to maintain that ranking.

Good article on Zebo

http://tapandgorugby.com/2014/11/16/gilroy-threat-zebo/

It is pretty realistic that Gilroy can oust him for Australia. I think the best performer today will take the left wing spot with Tommy on the right.

Another good article;

http://www.thescore.ie/georgia-rugby-1782614-Nov2014/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Mark Egan, IRB Head of Competition and Performance wrote:We’ve seen great progress since that 2007 Rugby World Cup. That game against Ireland was a bit of a watershed for them. The president of the country was at the game and post-match he went into the changing rooms and said he was ‘very proud of what they’d achieved on the day’ even though they didn’t get the victory. And that he was committed to investing in rugby in Georgia because he saw the rugby team as great ambassadors for the country and he saw the potential.

Seems like that World Cup helped Georgian rugby attract investment.

Ireland always does its bit to propel rugby on in the lesser regions. I'm glad we decided to help out Georgia in 2007. Now it's time to welcome them to the real world of rugby and.................... all in the best possible taste.................. beat the bejaysus out of them
If we lose this one it'll be sick bags for everyone.... and ye howls of derision for Joe.

Notch wrote:Good article on Zebo

http://tapandgorugby.com/2014/11/16/gilroy-threat-zebo/

It is pretty realistic that Gilroy can oust him for Australia. I think the best performer today will take the left wing spot with Tommy on the right.

It is good and is more or less what I have been saying re Zebo. You are not allowed criticise Munster players on here though.

Not sure though that you can rate defensive duties against the number 2 side in the World (a side that beat New Zealand and now just beat England) with Georgia.

I don't think Zebo will or should feel on edge if Gilroy defends well against Georgia.

It's an opportunity for Schmidt to look at players but also an opportunity for those players to get gametime and more importantly feel they are part of the squad mix, playing their part in the series.

Gilroy might take Zebo's place against Australia but I'd think that would only be because Joe wants to have a look at Gilroy in a much tighter scrap against a much more high value opponent.... not because he's mad (again) with Zebo.

GunsGerms wrote:

Notch wrote:Good article on Zebo

http://tapandgorugby.com/2014/11/16/gilroy-threat-zebo/

It is pretty realistic that Gilroy can oust him for Australia. I think the best performer today will take the left wing spot with Tommy on the right.

It is good and is more or less what I have been saying re Zebo. You are not allowed criticise Munster players on here though.

Interesting point about how Munster & Connacht players are disadvantaged when it comes to team selection with Schmidt (& most the coaching team ex-Leinster) and Kiss with Ulster playing favourites.

All we need now is for Ireland to play Munster as a world cup warm-up and beat them like back in 1999.

Luckily the team is called Ireland and it actually doesn't matter in the slightest what domestic teams the players play for.

FecklessRogue wrote:Luckily the team is called Ireland and it actually doesn't matter in the slightest what domestic teams the players play for.

Not everyone is convinced of that. That blog is saying that Gilroy has an advantage over Zebo because he has Kiss as his coach.

I suppose you think that the Welsh players on the Lions were not advantaged by having Gatland as their national coach?

No you're right. When under pressure coaches are liable to go with what they know. Players from Munster and Connacht probably are slightly disadvantaged in the close marginal calls.

What I'm saying is I don't care what domestic team any Irish player plays for when they're wearing green. It's irrelevant. They could be playing for Zebre for all I care, as long as they do the business for Ireland.

Kiss has been at ulster for 3 months. I would say the knowledge iphe has built up over 4 odd years of Irish squads is a bit greater

Munster, Connacht, Leinster, Ulster. One guy always gets back to the ingredients in the pie.

How would you feel Sin if we organised a quota system that would give equal numbers to each Province in the Ireland squad? Would that finally mean that Munster folk could cheer on Ireland without any guilt that they might be committing treason against their Province?

Yes or No - quotas?

Standulstermen wrote:Kiss has been at ulster for 3 months. I would say the knowledge iphe has built up over 4 odd years of Irish squads is a bit greater

That is no use when you are a new entrant (for example, Duncan Casey couldn't make the squad despite his fine performances all season) presumably because he didn't have someone at the selection table talking him up.

SecretFly wrote:Munster, Connacht, Leinster, Ulster.  One guy always gets back to the ingredients in the pie.

How would you feel Sin if we organised a quota system that would give equal numbers to each Province in the Ireland squad?  Would that finally mean that Munster folk could cheer on Ireland without any guilt that they might be committing treason against their Province?

Yes or No - quotas?

Whatever about having a head coach who has worked previously with a province, it might be better if the rest of the coaching staff were not involved with a province. Even Easterby is tainted by his brother being Leinster's team manager.

Tainted? Ain't Schmidt tainted that he's a New Zealander? Ain't Strauss tainted that he's a South African? Ain't Ross and Redden tainted that the're Munstermen?
No, Sin. We're on the path to Leinster purity of the genes and things. But we haven't gotten there yet.

SecretFly wrote:Tainted?  Ain't Schmidt tainted that he's a New Zealander?  Ain't Strauss tainted that he's a South African?  Ain't Ross and Redden tainted that the're Munstermen?
No, Sin.  We're on the path to Leinster purity of the genes and things.  But we haven't gotten there yet.

I didn't know Ross, Reddan & Strauss are picking the team