Jonothan Kaplan on the two yellow cards of the weekend.

Hookers Adriaan Strauss and Dane Coles were both shown yellow cards on Saturday which could have been avoided if the referee concerned had used a bit of common sense.

Strauss was sent to the sin-bin for taking Irish fullback Rob Kearney out in the air in the Springboks' defeat in Dublin, whilst Coles was sent from the field at Twickenham for lashing out with his foot during the All Blacks' victory over England.

In the second minute of the Test at Lansdowne Road Rob Kearney clearly took Willie le Roux out and the sanction was upgraded from a free kick to a penalty with the player hardly receiving even a warning.

Then 60 minutes later Kearney was taken out by Strauss just before he landed in a fairly innocous way without any malicious intent. It was almost as if Strauss had tried to put him off catching the ball and then touched him. That is literally all it is.

If you are going on the argument that we need the players to understand what is going to happen to them before they run onto the field then it must be done across the board and there should be a lot more yellow cards than they are giving.

I am not arguing that it should not have been a penalty, it should have. But certainly if you are refereeing at this level I would expect that there needs to be more common sense in a game that is a contact sport. I think netball has more contact in an aerial sense than what was allowed in that particular case.

If the referee had used common sense he could have just as easily have managed that situation by saying that although a player was taken out in the air in this particular case it falls at the lower end of the scale and we are going to give a penalty and a caution.

It would have been in line with what he had done in the second minute of the game and I cannot agree with the decision because it is a contact sport and they are over-sanitising that arena because they happen to be concerned about injuries of players who are exposed in the air, which is a knee-jerk reaction to something that could just as easily be managed with the right amount of law application and common sense.

At Twickenham Nigel Owens did not deal with the perpetrator Dylan Hartley who started the whole thing by pulling Coles.

Coles' reaction was worse, but for me it could just as easily have been managed. It was not a yellow card offence and the guy who started it should have been included in the discussion.

My feeling was that a penalty should have gone in favour of England because the reaction of Coles was worse than Hartley's, he should not have lashed out, but certainly both should have been put on notice.

Even though the reaction is wrong you cannot ignore the original action, you have got to take both into account.

In this case it wasn't that he kicked somebody, he was frustrated so he lashed out with his foot and happened to make contact.

Whilst you can argue that Owens was not wrong in the strictest sense, there are a whole bunch of better outcomes that could have been obtained through better mangement of that situation.

By Jonathan Kaplan - Rugby 365

I did not see the Ireland - SA game so cannot comment. I completely agree that from a common sense point of view Coles shoudl not have been carded. It annoys the hell out of me that players get away with sly tugs, holding down etc. Yes a pro plyer needs to show restraint but Hartley was cheating - pure and simple.

Has Kaplan retired from reffing? Even if he has not, I am uncomfortable with him being so critical of referees who were his peers.

Yes he is retired, he now reviews refereeing decisions for Rugby 365. He did it for the RC as well.

As things stand I think Coles should have got a yellow and Hartley should have got away with nothing but holding people in rucks etc is increasing and annoying. You can't just ignore lashing out though and it was intentional to hit Hartley even if he managed to get someone else. Also all holding offenses should be penalised not just those where someone loses their rag.

Both cards were correct.

Kearney should also have been carded at the start of the Ireland/SA game.

Kaplan was a pretty poor ref and still doesn't seem to understand the game.

Re. Coles, you can't just lash out like that even if you have been (slightly) provoked.

Watching the England vs All Black match now, the carding of Coles is pathetic.

English commentator is quick to say Coles is stupid, but it is a reactionary act, not pre meditated.

I fear common sense is leaving rugby, I understand we want to protect players, but there has to be some common sense about things.

It is a nothing reaction, and to be truthful Hartley deserved to be sent off as well.

Those who instigate is at least as guilty as the player reacting

Also what has happened to looking at the severity of the reaction?

Kicking someone in the face is a lot worse than hacking at a boot.

Rugby is getting too soft.

Biltong wrote:Rugby is getting too soft.

Aye, bring back gouging

Cyril wrote:

Biltong wrote:Rugby is getting too soft.

Aye, bring back gouging

Typical reaction from someone who cannot use common sense.

Hartley was guilty of deliberate, pre-meditated cheating. that we see it several times per game does not make it correct. Rugby fans in general and on here are quick to claim some moral high ground over Football, laughing at diving and feigning injury. This to me is just as bad.

I just saw on the clock in the England match on 64 minutes and 25 seconds Corey Jane goes up with Owen Farrell to contest a high ball, Jane raps his arms around Farrell and brings him down, he doesn't even get close to the ball, Farrell falls and stays down.

No mention by the referee, the touch judge, the commentators or anyone.

Where is the outrage? Or is it a case of double standards or common sense?

I also didn't see the Ireland v SA game. What I saw with the Hartley/Coles incident was Hartley pulling Coles out of the ruck (Coles was on the wrong side), and Coles then lashing out with his boot at an England player's ankle...and Coles had a look at the 'target' for good measure.

Owens was pretty sure that it was a yellow, but the TMO was trying desperately to keep NZ from going down to 14 men.

Biltong, are you saying that kicking an opponent does not merit more than a penalty?

Hound of Harrow wrote:I also didn't see the Ireland v SA game. What I saw with the Hartley/Coles incident was Hartley pulling Coles out of the ruck (Coles was on the wrong side), and Coles then lashing out with his boot at an England player's ankle...and Coles had a look at the 'target' for good measure.

Owens was pretty sure that it was a yellow, but the TMO was trying desperately to keep NZ from going down to 14 men.

Biltong, are you saying that kicking an opponent does not merit more than a penalty?

Yes, he clearly looked to see where he could stamp. Like Healy on Cole.

Hound of Harrow wrote:I also didn't see the Ireland v SA game. What I saw with the Hartley/Coles incident was Hartley pulling Coles out of the ruck (Coles was on the wrong side), and Coles then lashing out with his boot at an England player's ankle...and Coles had a look at the 'target' for good measure.

Owens was pretty sure that it was a yellow, but the TMO was trying desperately to keep NZ from going down to 14 men.

Biltong, are you saying that kicking an opponent does not merit more than a penalty?

Well firstly, Coles was not on the wrong side, he was over the try line in the corner, play had moved on, as for the kick.

I have seen rucking worse than that. It wasn't a kick, and landed on the boot.

My point is if it was a rake into someone's face it is a different story.

Bilt you are judging Hartley's pull by the overreaction it caused. That is quite obviously ridiculous.

Lashing out, if it makes contact, runs the risk of being carded. It could have been someone's face on the ground and then it would have been red. It's not an excuse to say he lashed out not meaning to hit anyone.

The problem for players and teams is 16 cameras and video replays. Everyone grows up playing rugby in a much less sanitised way. But at the top level if you do something silly it is invariably going to look worse in slow-mo.

We can't eliminate cheating in rugby...we'd never get to watch the great McCaw if we did! Rugby is a game where it's about getting away with whatever you can in order to secure advantage...niggle, scrumming for pens and pen trys, conning the oppo about line out numbers, etc, etc.

Cyril wrote:

Hound of Harrow wrote:I also didn't see the Ireland v SA game. What I saw with the Hartley/Coles incident was Hartley pulling Coles out of the ruck (Coles was on the wrong side), and Coles then lashing out with his boot at an England player's ankle...and Coles had a look at the 'target' for good measure.

Owens was pretty sure that it was a yellow, but the TMO was trying desperately to keep NZ from going down to 14 men.

Biltong, are you saying that kicking an opponent does not merit more than a penalty?

Yes, he clearly looked to see where he could stamp. Like Healy on Cole.

?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Really - really?. I suspect you are so far up your own arse that you can see daylight again.

Quins, you are correct, we cannot eliminate cheating, but just as we review the reaction we are looking a what causes the reaction.

Earlier this season we had referees looking at players being held back, not being able to play to the ball or continuing play.

Those that were holding back was identified and penalised. It worked very well, I do not kow why it isn't enforced more rigorously

LondonTiger wrote:

Cyril wrote:

Hound of Harrow wrote:I also didn't see the Ireland v SA game. What I saw with the Hartley/Coles incident was Hartley pulling Coles out of the ruck (Coles was on the wrong side), and Coles then lashing out with his boot at an England player's ankle...and Coles had a look at the 'target' for good measure.

Owens was pretty sure that it was a yellow, but the TMO was trying desperately to keep NZ from going down to 14 men.

Biltong, are you saying that kicking an opponent does not merit more than a penalty?

Yes, he clearly looked to see where he could stamp. Like Healy on Cole.

?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Really - really?. I suspect you are so far up your own arse that you can see daylight again.

I doubt that, he has gone to a very dark place and danky place.

Kaplan wasn’t much of a ref on the pitch. Respecting his comments made whilst sitting in his armchair watching the slomo replays and scratching his ‘arris isn’t easy.

The description of Stauss’s “fairly innocous way without any malicious intent” offence is just a lazy personal opinion. Let the ref sort that out on the pitch.

Coles’ offence WAS “managed” – he kicked out at an oppo player, making some contact and the YC was a no-brainer. And I have to larf at any faux outrage that Hartley’s tug was unacceptable, but kicking out at a player is just what happens. Given the continual shenanigans practiced in the pack, a little tug here and there seems pretty forgettable.

I thought both refs did ok tbh. Got to say Biltong whinging at the ref is starting to get a habit with you.

But how many times (correctly) have we seen the initial 'offence' superceded by an act of retaliation, which is then punished? The initial offence is usually also dealt with by a card if deemed serious enough.

Barney, I am not whinging, I have given Ireland their dues, I have criticised my team to the hilt.

If you think I am whinging, well then so be it.

I am whinging about te inconsistencies and lack of common sense in rugby as a whole.

Do me a favour. look at the Strauss yellow card in slow mo, then do the same in the 64th minute of the England vs AB game, where Jane takes out Farrell.

COmpare the reaction (or lack thereof) by the referee NIgel Owens, the TMO, the Touchjudge, the crowd at Twickenham and the commentators.

Biltong wrote:Barney, I am not whinging, I have given Ireland their dues, I have criticised my team to the hilt.

If you think I am whinging, well then so be it.

I am whinging about te inconsistencies and lack of common sense in rugby as a whole.

Do me a favour. look at the Strauss yellow card in slow mo, then do the same in the 64th minute of the England vs AB game, where Jane takes out Farrell.

COmpare the reaction (or lack thereof) by the referee NIgel Owens, the TMO, the Touchjudge, the crowd at Twickenham and the commentators.

Common sense and empathy are the two keys to great refereeing Bill

I agree with you on your above points, it is a similar situation to the thread I started yesterday regarding players preventing defenders from rolling away to get penalties.

In general with rugby, retaliation was punished far more than an initial incident. But that was metered out in an era where the game was mostly played by gentleman. Today sees some thuggish intent from those claiming professionalism and the referee has to look to prevent at source rather than just punishing the retaliation.

Maybe now is the time that the referee has to look far more closely at why a player reacts and make a common sense decision based on why that player is reacting so much.

Reacting to a pull, with a kick or punch, is always going to be punished more harshly than the initial pull.

Always. And rightly so, or it would be open season on taking the law into ones own hands. Can you imagine?

I didn't watch the England match, but I did note a piece in the NZ Herald criticising Nigel Owens' performance as a whole. Did people think it was really that bad? It was a fairly snotty piece of polemic, particularly from a journalist whose side had won that day.

George Carlin wrote:I didn't watch the England match, but I did note a piece in the NZ Herald criticising Nigel Owens' performance as a whole. Did people think it was really that bad? It was a fairly snotty piece of polemic, particularly from a journalist whose side had won that day.

In the NZ Herald?!

Never

No complaint with either.

Hartley hardly did anything. Barely holding onto his shirt. It wouldn't ever have been a penalty in any circumstance. Coles was a fool and totally over reacted in a way you simply can't. Say it can't be a yellow is ridiculous.

Strauss... you can't take a man out in the air. Simple.

Had he competed for the ball it would have been a different story but he didn't. He didn't even look at the ball. He went for the man and his arm was dangerous... not in the impact but how it could have caused Kearney to fall. Kearney could have landed on his head on that challenge, had he done so would Kaplan said that it shouldn't have warranted a card. Of course not.

Whether or not a player gets injured from a tackle doesn't mean it is legal or not. The tackle was illegal and dangerous and the TMO showed he had no intention of going for the ball. To say he couldn't pull out of it is ridiculous. Unless he has the reactions of a 89 year old with Alzheimer's he would have been able to pull out of the tackle. He simply got his timing wrong and chose to continue with the hit.

That's a yellow regardless of how forceful it was or how much Kearney suffered from it. Nick Mallett said it. I think Kaplan suffers a little here from national bias.

quinsforever wrote:Reacting to a pull, with a kick or punch, is always going to be punished more harshly than the initial pull.

Always. And rightly so, or it would be open season on taking the law into ones own hands. Can you imagine?

I disagree as there is plenty of evidence that players presume to get away with an initial act as they know that the retaliation they get for it from their victim will defer the attention away from them.

Gouging, biting, sucker punching a trapped and helpless player, bending limbs and snapping tendons all to often go unpunished because the victim gives the nasty piece of work that committed the act a good clip around the ear.

Tese days referees have to look at the whole situation, and if both acts, initial and reactionary are illegal both players deserve punishment.

The citing commissioner can take things further if necessary.

Hound of Harrow wrote:But how many times (correctly) have we seen the initial 'offence' superceded by an act of retaliation, which is then punished? The initial offence is usually also dealt with by a card if deemed serious enough.

Owens has spoken a lot about retaliation on Talksport in the past. He has said it is a common mistake to "upgrade" an original offence just because the retaliation was severe. In other words, handing out a yellow because you plan to hand out a yellow or red to the retaliator.

As soon as he looked like judging Coles' action was worth a yellow, I'm not surprised he didn't even go on to speak with Hartley about his tug.

maestegmafia wrote:Maybe now is the time that the referee has to look far more closely at why a player reacts and make a common sense decision based on why that player is reacting so much.

That is all I am asking mate. The sneaky little plays should be stamped out as much as the retaliation.

And whilst it is not happening, use common sense when someone retaliates.

FA wrote:Hartley hardly did anything. Barely holding onto his shirt. It wouldn't ever have been a penalty in any circumstance. Coles was a fool and totally over reacted in a way you simply can't. Say it can't be a yellow is ridiculous.

My word but you are being blinded this morning.

COles was getting to his feet and was pulled OFF HIS FEET by Hartley, pulled back into the pile of bodies.

FA wrote:I think Kaplan suffers a little here from national bias.

You love to play two side of the fence, eh?

Do you remember Kaplan's bias when he criticised the referee for going back to the TMO that gave Lambie the match winning kick after the crowd bayed?

Nah, I didn't think so.

There are basically two issues that Kaplan is referring to here.

Competing for the ball in the air, and retaliation.

Both needs to be dealt with by using common sense.

Would support a move to give pens against holding onto peoples shirts and preventing them from rejoining play but kicking or striking out needs to be a yellow.

I reckon you should be allowed lash out within reason when someone is cheating. It would spice the game up a bit.

We'll definitely start Callum Clark then.

Striking does deserve a YC I agree. Like when Hartley smashed his forearm into McCaw's face in 2010 but got no YC or penalty against. It was a shame the local partisan broadcasters didn't think it worthwhile replaying that 10 times on the bigscreen. I read yesterday that there will be independent broadcasters at the RWC. If this is true, every non-England rugby fan should rejoice.

No 7&1/2 wrote:We'll definitely start Callum Clark then.

I said within reason.

Biltong wrote:

FA wrote:I think Kaplan suffers a little here from national bias.

You love to play two side of the fence, eh?

Do you remember Kaplan's bias when he criticised the referee for going back to the TMO that gave Lambie the match winning kick after the crowd bayed?

Nah, I didn't think so.

Everyone is biased... even subconsciously. If not then referees would be allowed to officiate games including their own team.... they're professionals after all. But we don't, they're banned from doing so.

You can't lash out like coles did. That is a yellow any day of the week, in any country, any game.

Same with Strauss, a heavy hit or not, its still a hit and he still was looking off the ball at the crucial minute and didn't try and retract his tackle.

Both yellows, both justified.

ebop wrote:Striking does deserve a YC I agree. Like when Hartley smashed his forearm into McCaw's face in 2010 but got no YC or penalty against. It was a shame the local partisan broadcasters didn't think it worthwhile replaying that 10 times on the bigscreen. I read yesterday that there will be independent broadcasters at the RWC. If this is true, every non-England rugby fan should rejoice.

Maybe McCaw should have been yellow'd in the WC final for striking with his forearm and then kneeing Parra in the face at a ruck?

ebop wrote:Striking does deserve a YC I agree. Like when Hartley smashed his forearm into McCaw's face in 2010 but got no YC or penalty against. It was a shame the local partisan broadcasters didn't think it worthwhile replaying that 10 times on the bigscreen. I read yesterday that there will be independent broadcasters at the RWC. If this is true, every non-England rugby fan should rejoice.

Hypocritical twaddle comment of the day.

Biltong wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Maybe now is the time that the referee has to look far more closely at why a player reacts and make a common sense decision based on why that player is reacting so much.

That is all I am asking mate. The sneaky little plays should be stamped out as much as the retaliation.

And whilst it is not happening, use common sense when someone retaliates.

Biltong I think there is a cognitive dissonance is asking for the sneaky little plays to be stamped out and saying the Strauss cynically disrupting the play after warnings was not a yellow card. Both captains had been warned by that point, and following that Vermeulen had been pulled up for having Heaslip round the neck from behind. It was frustration more than anything, but after being warned about niggles and then niggling, you are definitely running the risk of seeing yellow.

I agree that Hartley should have been pulled up for the jersey pull, but a sneaky jersey pull and lashing out indiscriminately like a brat are not, to my mind, equals. Again its open to discussion depending on how stringent you want to be, but it is not the referee to blame here.

LondonTiger wrote:

ebop wrote:Striking does deserve a YC I agree. Like when Hartley smashed his forearm into McCaw's face in 2010 but got no YC or penalty against. It was a shame the local partisan broadcasters didn't think it worthwhile replaying that 10 times on the bigscreen. I read yesterday that there will be independent broadcasters at the RWC. If this is true, every non-England rugby fan should rejoice.

Hypocritical twaddle comment of the day.

To be honest he has a point. The BBC does tend to ignore the England teams indiscretions and focus on the opposition. In all fairness you arent going to slow mo your own player doing something dirty over and over again whereas the BBC definitely does it when a team playing England does something bad.

That said Moore in particular isnt afraid to be critical of England dirty play.

What's hypocritical about that LT?

Why should it be every non England fan exactly?

Do the math mate

No. Go on say what you mean.

1 + 2 = 3

For the WC as they do in football, the TV replay shouldnt be allowed replay contentious decisions. If the ref wants to he can go to the TV match official. However, it isnt fair where a home broadcaster choses to replay away teams indiscretions that are subsequently picked up by the ref and do not replay their own teams fouls.

So why only non England fans? Say what exactly you mean by that please.

Guns is onto it, happened in the weekend with Coles.

Surely not just for England?