What can be done to change the view of the Springboks.. or does it not need to..

First topic message reminder :

I bet we have all watched Invictus, and not going to get into the debate on whether it was a good film or not, whether it portrayed the RWC correctly or any of that stuff...

.. but one thing that stood out for me, was the young black South African not wanting the Springbok jersey at the beginning of the film, but at the end accepting it has his own. The speech Mandela made to retain the Springbok as the emblem of SA rugby... I felt that a strong and very brave line to take and for me underpins what a remarkable and wise person he was.

I'm therefore a little surprised at this BLOG I spotted on the BBC, and have to ask our Bok posters on here... Do you think this is complete hogwash or accurate, and if the latter, does this represent a backward step or has it always been the case and simply the cracks are reappearing..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/30028782

Personally, I hope it is just Tom Fordyce's usual hogwash, as I'm a strong believer that rugby, beyond any other sport, has the ability to unite people rather than create divides. And I have believed, that South Africa, more than any other nation, due to its "past politics", has demonstrated this more than any other rugby playing nation. I for one would be really disappointed if there is credibility in this Blog...

Be interested in your comments...

Well, it's not Two trucks, but you're not far off... unless I don't know what it means

kingraf wrote:Well, it's not Two trucks, but you're not far off... unless I don't know what it means

means chin/mouth/jaw King.

I always assumed it was the plural of truck...i.e more than 1 so just assumed trucks botha or two-trucks botha etc.

Oh! Rather strange term of endearment, as that's generally a derogatory way of saying it

fa0019 wrote:

kingraf wrote:Well, it's not Two trucks, but you're not far off... unless I don't know what it means

means chin/mouth/jaw King.

I always assumed it was the plural of truck...i.e more than 1 so just assumed trucks botha or two-trucks botha etc.

That's a 'bek' as as in Biltongbek (biltong jaw) Bakkies is a reference to a pick-up truck.

...oh and I forgot a nickname earlier. Who remembers Vleis Visagie? (Vleis = meat)

ANd there was that player for the Lions called Baksteen Nel (Baksteen = brick)

Oh Yes, and what about Moaner Van Heerden...

(And for your benefit Secretfly a translation of some above mentioned nicknames: Os = Ox; Mof = pufta; and Gaffie = ...I don't know, we'll have to ask Biltong)

bek is the mouth of an animal no? as in "hou jou bek".

Bakkies is not a reference to a pick up truck from what I now understand.... original thought mind.

Where is our resident boer when we need him.

My favourite was Adolf Malan... no doubt where his parents loyalties were given he was born post WWII.

That is in fact his actual name. shudder!

Although they could have named him after Adolf 'Sailor' Malan the South African RAF ace from WW2! (Who not only fought against the Nazis, but was also an anti-apartheid activist of sorts)

Mr Fishpaste wrote:Although they could have named him after Adolf 'Sailor' Malan the South African RAF ace from WW2! (Who not only fought against the Nazis, but was also an anti-apartheid activist of sorts)

Didn't know about him.... although its spelt the hitler way so perhaps, perhaps not. Sailor Malan was Adolph from a quick web search. Learn something new every day!

"Now son, we named you after a racist dictator who brought to the world a war that killed millions, executed millions more and brought ruin, shame and destruction to his own nation.  And we named you after him because we Love You"

How loving.

But on the other hand, it's completely believable that they named him after the other Adolf. There was a fair bit of home-grown South African support for the Germans during WW2 (Mainly, I think, because they were fighting the English, so an enemy of my enemy is my friend etc...)

SecretFly wrote:"Now son, we named you after a racist dictator who brought to the world a war that killed millions, executed millions more and brought ruin, shame and destruction to his own nation.  And we named you after him because we Love You"

How loving.

Apparently one of the most popular names in Kosovo today for boys is Tony... after Tony Blair (due to his intervention in 99/00 etc)

Mr Fishpaste wrote:But on the other hand, it's completely believable that they named him after the other Adolf. There was a fair bit of home-grown South African support for the Germans during WW2 (Mainly, I think, because they were fighting the English, so an enemy of my enemy is my friend etc...)

The friend of my enemy is my friend thing always complicates matters doesn't it! Like a spiders web by the end.

Its crazy to think that Israel was probably South Africa's strongest ally (perhaps only ally) during the latter apartheid years yet many of those who were leading the country come the end were Nazi Germany supporters in their youth.

Yeah those boere who joined up for his majesty were not well thought of apparently.

Makes sense to me. Isnt there a big Jewish population in SA? Jonathan Kaplan and Joel Stransky for example.

GunsGerms wrote:Makes sense to me. Isnt there a big Jewish population in SA? Jonathan Kaplan and Joel Stransky for example.

Yeah large population in Cape Town, Seapoint-Camps bay area.

I think it was more to do with how their similar isolationist policies drew them together.

There's an old Afrikaans lady (about 80yrs old) in my town who married an Englishman back in the day...and there are still parts of her Afrikaans family who don't talk to her as a result!

It is difficult to always know where a nickname comes from.

Jaque Fourie is Mossie , which is a little bird.
Bakkies means face in Afrikaans, so hard to tell how he got that name.
Mof Myburgh you would think Mof comes from Moffie (gay) but mof also suggests being a bit dense in Afrikaans

Ezample, biltongbek comes from me loving biltong and Bek, which is used in the terms of big mouth "grootbek" as I always have an opinion.

Gaffie I can't say, his first name is Gabriel, and his second name is Stephanus, which is often shortened to Fanie.

It could be Ga (Gabriel) and Fie from Fanie.

We have weird nick names, I had a nick name in the army related to a cartoon character because of my nose and had nothing to do with my name at all.


We are a weird bunch.

Went to school with a kid called Adolf Hilter Pretorious. Gave a rather convoluted explanation which I didn't internalise... I mean his name was Hitler!

Yip, mine was rather standard though. Francesc would have been Cesc or Franco, had I grown up in Spain or an English school... instead I roam the world as Faffa

Yes you are a wierd bunch. Did Adolf Hitler Pretorious come from a family of Nazi sympathisers?

One of my best friend's grandfathers was a Nazi in the Waffen SS. They are quite ashamed about it and like to keep it quiet understandably.

Also Adolf Hitler's brother worked in the Shelbourne hotel in Dublin and married an Irish woman.

We have an embarassing history. Our leader at the time shamefully signed Hitler's book of condolances. Clown.

It is strange how history goes.

The Afrikaaners hate England?
The Afrikaaners are of Dutch ancestry.
The Dutch are the House of Orange.
King Billy (William 3rd) was an Orange King of Britain
British Loyalists on my Island (Orange Order) owe their historic loyalty to the man of Orange with the Dutch lineage (birth) who was King of England!

But the Afrikaans hate the English.

GunsGerms wrote:Yes you are a wierd bunch. Did Adolf Hitler Pretorious come from a family of Nazi sympathisers?

One of my best friend's grandfathers was a Nazi in the Waffen SS. They are quite ashamed about it and like to keep it quiet understandably.

Also Adolf Hitler's brother worked in the Shelbourne hotel in Dublin and married an Irish woman.

We have an embarassing history. Our leader at the time shamefully signed Hitler's book of condolances. Clown.

Churchill had drinks and cigars with Stalin...who probably killed by extermination as many Russians as Hitler killed Europeans. Churchill himself bombed German cities to rubble. Americans vapourised Japanese to shadows on doorsteps. It's hard to know where to look when looking for clowns.

But the Afrikaans hate the English.

That is not entirely true.

Afrikaners come in various guises.

You get the ultra conservative lot, a very small minority who still live in 1901. They hate everything English.

Then you get the lesser conservative Afrikaner, but still conservative enough where they are proud to be Afrikaners and therefor take pride in the language, they don't want to speak English and demand they be served in their own language. This group is centralised around most of your farming communities and cities like Pretoria and Bloemfontein.

But they don't hate everything English, they are just very adamant they want to be Afrikaans. a Big percentage of these farmers simply aren't exposed to English speaking people as their communities are very traditionally Afrikaans

ANd then you get the rest, which live in the other more cosmopolitan cities, they do business in English, in fact half their day consists of communicating in English. They just aren't bothered about the whole thing and have moved on.

No idea GG. I assumed that was the case. He's father was Adolf as well. Then the family tradition demanded his middle name start with an "H", and names like Hardus or Herman were to mainstream, I guess.

SecretFly wrote:It is strange how history goes.

The Afrikaaners hate England?
The Afrikaaners are of Dutch ancestry.
The Dutch are the House of Orange.
King Billy (William 3rd) was an Orange King of Britain
British Loyalists on my Island (Orange Order) owe their historic loyalty to the man of Orange with the Dutch lineage (birth) who was King of England!

But the Afrikaans hate the English.

Yeah well it was all down to self determination and the boer war to be honest.

Its strange how things turned out. The boer war generated huge resentment for the English but in reality it gave them full control of the entire country within 10 years even though they technically lost. Before they only had the Free state and Transvaal but by 1910 they had Natal and the Cape Colony thrown in too. They were still a dominion but as much as AUS & NZ were.

Afrikaans pre boer war was dying out too. It was unfashionable and many started speaking English in the home as it started to take over in the cape. The Boer war re-addressed this at least in the Cape.

Had Gold not been discovered in the Transvaal modern SA would look very different from today. Scarred this continent like no other.

Wasn't seen the other way around mind. The English had a lot of respect for the boer post war due to their fighting skill. Jan Smuts was held in such regard by Churchill that had he died during WWII he would have become PM of the UK. He was Churchill's war-time successor.

SecretFly wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Yes you are a wierd bunch. Did Adolf Hitler Pretorious come from a family of Nazi sympathisers?

One of my best friend's grandfathers was a Nazi in the Waffen SS. They are quite ashamed about it and like to keep it quiet understandably.

Also Adolf Hitler's brother worked in the Shelbourne hotel in Dublin and married an Irish woman.

We have an embarassing history. Our leader at the time shamefully signed Hitler's book of condolances. Clown.

Churchill had drinks and cigars with Stalin...who probably killed by extermination as many Russians as Hitler killed Europeans.  Churchill himself bombed German cities to rubble.  Americans vapourised Japanese to shadows on doorsteps.  It's hard to know where to look when looking for clowns.

I think its a little harsh on Churchill.

You have to understand that we were at total war. It was a battle of survival and in on no uncertain terms can you fight a war of that magnitude without forging allies with those who you detest which may be necessary but also take difficult decisions which cost the lives of many innocent victims.

He may have signed the dotted line causing the deaths of perhaps millions of innocent Germans but in reality that's what it took to save the world from Nazism. Without which many more would have died and our world yours and mine would be far worse with it.

We can't view decisions with a modern sense of morality which has been developed upon 70 years of relative European peace.

kingraf wrote:Yip, mine was rather standard though. Francesc would have been Cesc or Franco, had I grown up in Spain or an English school... instead I roam the world as Faffa

Wow Faffa, so your sister is staying with the relatives in Spain? Let me guess... you have some Francisco Franco pedigree?

That probably explains your severely grandiose and deluded desire to "rule the world, lol"

Have you bought your new orange (with silver lightening bolt motifs on the side) jet ski yet, Kingy?

Smuts is an interesting character, fought against Britain under de la Rey, then held senior positions in both WWI and WWII. He was the only person to sign treaties after both wars I think.

As you say Churchill was a big supporter of his and of course interestingly, Churchill was captured during the Boer war. Well interesting if you are a geek like me!

GunsGerms wrote:Yes you are a wierd bunch. Did Adolf Hitler Pretorious come from a family of Nazi sympathisers?

One of my best friend's grandfathers was a Nazi in the Waffen SS. They are quite ashamed about it and like to keep it quiet understandably.

Also Adolf Hitler's brother worked in the Shelbourne hotel in Dublin and married an Irish woman.

We have an embarassing history. Our leader at the time shamefully signed Hitler's book of condolances. Clown.

You can say that again.

Thank goodness the Republicans couldn't organise the boat off Wexford that night. The Germans are still pi55ed off about that.

A date is a date.

Yep. Vastly superior quality of education. Night and day. To my knowledge it was a simple case of my great grandfather being "Frans", and my dad deciding I'd get the Catalán variation. Even though he lived in Madrid, he's a Pro Catalán independence type. Unlike me.

Not yet. Mate getting his finances in order to pay for his. Should be done by January.

fa0019 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Yes you are a wierd bunch. Did Adolf Hitler Pretorious come from a family of Nazi sympathisers?

One of my best friend's grandfathers was a Nazi in the Waffen SS. They are quite ashamed about it and like to keep it quiet understandably.

Also Adolf Hitler's brother worked in the Shelbourne hotel in Dublin and married an Irish woman.

We have an embarassing history. Our leader at the time shamefully signed Hitler's book of condolances. Clown.

Churchill had drinks and cigars with Stalin...who probably killed by extermination as many Russians as Hitler killed Europeans.  Churchill himself bombed German cities to rubble.  Americans vapourised Japanese to shadows on doorsteps.  It's hard to know where to look when looking for clowns.

I think its a little harsh on Churchill.

You have to understand that we were at total war. It was a battle of survival and in on no uncertain terms can you fight a war of that magnitude without forging allies with those who you detest which may be necessary but also take difficult decisions which cost the lives of many innocent victims.

He may have signed the dotted line causing the deaths of perhaps millions of innocent Germans but in reality that's what it took to save the world from Nazism. Without which many more would have died and our world yours and mine would be far worse with it.

We can't view decisions with a modern sense of morality which has been developed upon 70 years of relative European peace.

Innocents are innocents.  I keep saying this.  They don't care how they die or who kills them.  They get killed.  And in a war someone is killing them.  

I'm not a pacifist.  I believe sometimes it's necessary to go to war.  That means sometimes its necessary to kill.  But in a war, the 'Good' side kill innocents with equal disregard to the 'bad' side.  They'll talk through the necessity for certain acts - like the Americans talked us through the 'necessity' to atomic bomb two Japanese cities.  But the real reason is to win a game of chess - which is what war is in practical terms (or test new technology, which was the real reason America dropped their bombs).  The innocent, meanwhile, don't care that they were killed by nice people or for good reasons.

My absolute belief in that truth never wavers and therefore I always balance those who wish to glorify one kind of killing of innocents whilst condemning another.

In battles of survival fly, you do what you have to do. The British, the Americans weren't looking to destroy Germany but rather destroy Nazism and cause their unconditional surrender, without which would have meant their own destruction. Post war they even protected them.
Had it been the other way around millions more would have literally been lined up against a wall and shot and that would have been seen as a good way to go.

I understand what you're saying but its similar to what the BNP say... not accusing you of being part at all. But they always try and hold up the British for their crimes in WWII which in reality is just a cover for them to show their support for Facism, racism and Nazism.

Millions of innocents died on both sides but in this case the allies had little choice. It wasn't about a barrel of oil, gold deposits or what not. It was about saving the world from the brink of disaster. I'm sure war crimes were committed by the Allies but in comparison it wouldn't even constitute.

I don't think Churchill took on an image of a war hero anyhow, but he was the saviour of our nation, with others the western world and the global democratic movement.

There are a lot of bodies which have been slain to get us to the point when we can talk freely about our own opinions on this site for instance. Perhaps too much to really comprehend.

kingraf wrote:Yep. Vastly superior quality of education. Night and day. To my knowledge it was a simple case of my great grandfather being "Frans", and my dad deciding I'd get the Catalán variation. Even though he lived in Madrid, he's a Pro Catalán independence type. Unlike me.

Not yet. Mate getting his finances in order to pay for his. Should be done by January.

Good stuff.

Also the contributions to this thread. So many interesting insights into the SA psyche. It's so rich and complex... and totally fascinating.

By comparison, in Australia, there is almost an innocent and naive relationship between politics and sport. Two completely different things to us.
Of course, there has always been racial issues here... in all walks of life including sport... but there is something unique about this place.
Especially after the Apology - there have been many great leaps forward socially and politically speaking... however there is still some way to go in some places and institutions.

We are not for quotas (too egalitarian... "fair go", "give him a go!", etc) and I always get the feeling that we embrace our Indigenous players and in many cases depend on them. There are so many legends in a few sports... and we almost idolise them because they are such natural athletes. It's very hard to describe that feeling. Unlike SA... out on the field... we are very good at being "mates" for the good of the "mob". If that makes sense?

It's all about how some kid can get from some very isolated community and then somehow get before the eyes of a scout. Still so many who miss out either because they can't afford the ticket to get to a certain place for a trial match, for instance. Others get snapped up by rich private boarding schools and are fully sponsored. And then there are all the others in between who might make the move to the big smoke over several steps - from learning to boot or run with the ball in the sticks... then to a local club in a township hundreds of miles away... and maybe then (if they are lucky) Canberra or Sydney, etc.

By the time someone does that; they have proved their commitment and determination to the people that count - rugby selectors, etc.
However, as we all know - too much glitz and glamour can also corrupt.... unfortunately.

Interesting how South Aftican's are very aware of their heritage. By contrast you could easily meet a third generation Aussie called Darby O'Gill and they would be blissfully unaware of their Irish heritage.

GunsGerms wrote:Interesting how South Aftican's are very aware of their heritage. By contrast you could easily meet a third generation Aussie called Darby O'Gill and they would be blissfully unaware of their Irish heritage.

More like Darby O'Dill I'd say. Well, that's their problem. Shame really.

You'd spill your tea if you knew how much I know about my heritage. (it turns out they are from everywhere the further back you go)
A fair bit of Irish there on my Mum's side. They sure did get around mid 19thC. They were mostly very bold pioneering types!

That's why I'm here tonight... thanks to my Irish ancestors.

GunsGerms wrote:Interesting how South Aftican's are very aware of their heritage. By contrast you could easily meet a third generation Aussie called Darby O'Gill and they would be blissfully unaware of their Irish heritage.

I dont think thats true, Im of Irish Australian stock.

I think it's difficult. Emigrate to the other side of the world and you're literally on another planet. Today not so much but even 20 years ago it was.

Before the internet you would receive the odd letter from family & friends who had gone to AUS/NZ etc. The odd phone call at stupid o'clock for both sides with terrible line service.

Its easy to understand how people would grow apart from their past. There was no FB, Twitter, instagram etc to keep tabs on past friends etc.

Flight tickets were extortionate (I recall us going in the 80s, we paid more money then when we would now and given it was the old style 747s we had to stop in Kuwait, Bombay (as it was then called) and Singapore just to get there. It was a mission.

kingraf wrote:Also, I'm not actually sure how the nutritional factor is being overstated? 80 years ago there was a four inch disparity between the average African American and European American (yes they aren't called that, but..). Now it's half an inch. Is that just some form of miraculous miracle? Can't be an influx of West Africans because they only average 5'7 (surprisingly, the "much smaller," South African Africans average 5'6.5... perceptions Ey). When 6'5 Max Baer became world champion eighty odd years back, the average Italian height was 5'3, now it's 5'8. Couldn't be improved diet and living conditions could it?

I read before that Americans dwarfed Dutch people at the beginning of the last century. The Dutch diet of dairy products has boosted their height. So if you want your kids to be taller make them eat and drink more dairy products.

Genes also play a part. Interestingly, genetically the Dutch are half nordic and half celtic. So in other words very like the English.

Without knowing much about South African players I'd guess the makeup of the current team has more to do with farming background than being English or Dutch.

Bathman_in_London wrote:Smuts is an interesting character, fought against Britain under de la Rey, then held senior positions in both WWI and WWII. He was the only person to sign treaties after both wars I think.

As you say Churchill was a big supporter of his and of course interestingly, Churchill was captured during the Boer war. Well interesting if you are a geek like me!

Smuts was a genius. And I mean that literally.
His family could only afford to send one son to school. Smuts being the second eldest missed out. His older brother died when Smuts was 12, so Smuts was then sent to school. Smuts managed to complete a 12 year curriculum in 4 years and passed his final exams well enough to be considered for Cambridge. When he reached Cambridge he was informed that he was required to know Greek for his studies. Having never learnt it before, Smuts locked himself in his room for a week and learned sufficient Greek to get through University.

He studied Law (for which he received a first - very rare in those days) but also wrote books on poetry, became a fellow of the Royal Society of Botany and president of the Association for the Advancement of Science. Legend had it that when Einstein was asked if anyone actually understood his theory of relativity, he replied: Yes, Smuts. He invented the philosophical /psychological idea of Holism; he was the one of the key originators of the idea of the League of Nations; he recognised that air power would become the most important arm of the military and persuaded the British Ministry of Defence to form the RAF (instead of just treating the RFC as a regiment of the army) - all this, on top of being the Prime Minister of South Africa! and, of course, not to mention that as a youngster he led a 3500 strong Boer army against, at one stage, 400 000 British, and eluded capture for 2 years (in fact he was never captured: he realised the war was futile and decided to negotiate instead!) The Guinness Book of Records states that in his old age Smuts committed nearly 5000 books to memory!

As I said: Genius

Yes, he was a genius. Quite literally of course. Given the manner in which black professionals and artisans had begun trickling into the City during the War, it's not outside the realm of possibility for South Africa to have been the pioneers of a multi racial society had his party won the '48 elections, instead we had to be dragged kicking and screaming into a modern world.

In fact, one of the NP election campaigning points was that Smuts' party was intending to extend the franchise to coloured and Indian people...hence, so said the NP, don't vote for them!

fa0019 wrote:"Butch" James.... now that's a nickname, whoever named him that must have known his temperament very well.

Better than "Jessie" James. Not a good adjective if you're Scottish.

kingraf wrote:Yes, he was a genius. Quite literally of course. Given the manner in which black professionals and artisans had begun trickling into the City during the War, it's not outside the realm of possibility for South Africa to have been the pioneers of a multi racial society had his party won the '48 elections, instead we had to be dragged kicking and screaming into a modern world.

Yeah for me easily he is the greatest South African after Mandela. One of the greatest men of the century.

There is a story about him and Gandhi. Apparently they met in the 20s/30s etc and he was given a pair of sandals as a gift. Years later he returned the sandals saying that whilst he had worn them for many summers he felt he was no longer able to wear the shoes of such a great man. Inspiring stuff.

Mr Fishpaste wrote:In fact, one of the NP election campaigning points was that Smuts' party was intending to extend the franchise to coloured and Indian people...hence, so said the NP, don't vote for them!

The crazy thing is.... in 1948 the NP actually garnered die platteland (Afrikaner speaking) coloured vote to take office and it is partly how they got to the finish line.... then 5 years later after using their vote, they barred them from voting. TIA.