Tom Wood

First topic message reminder :

One of the biggest topics that has come from the AI's and the balance of our back row.

There has been many comments for and against.

Tom Wood is a jack of all trade and not as good at that as Robshaw.

Tom Wood is one of the best 6's in the world on top form

Tom Wood is Englands least specialist player and we have other players who could do his job better

.

So come on....what your thoughts on Tom Wood.

Is the back row imbalanced with him and Robshaw.

Do we have better 6's or at least players who could do his job for England better or is he by far our best option there.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:If you play Croft you go on the pitch with only 7 forwards and 3 wingers. I think our wingers are good enough to do the wide job themselves. Surely a fit Ewers and Sam Dickinson are way out in front of Croft?

I don't think Cockerill plays his blindsides (not just Croft) on the wing for their finishing skills. It's so they can play the ball wide knowing if it does pearshaped they have a back row specialist who can keep up.  Also their for defence/counter-rucking if they get turned over.

It's not just Cockerill.  A lot of coaches do it from time to time.  I agree it's not so much about finishing skills.  But I think the potential physical mismatch on attack out wide is a huge advantage.  As well as defending it all goes to perdition.  

We'd have to get the ball out wide though

Ah, I believe that is England Rugby Challenge number 204.

Question:  Daddy, what do wings do?
Answer:  I don't know, son.  I am an England supporter.

doctor_grey wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:If you play Croft you go on the pitch with only 7 forwards and 3 wingers. I think our wingers are good enough to do the wide job themselves. Surely a fit Ewers and Sam Dickinson are way out in front of Croft?

I don't think Cockerill plays his blindsides (not just Croft) on the wing for their finishing skills. It's so they can play the ball wide knowing if it does pearshaped they have a back row specialist who can keep up.  Also their for defence/counter-rucking if they get turned over.

It's not just Cockerill.  A lot of coaches do it from time to time.  I agree it's not so much about finishing skills.  But I think the potential physical mismatch on attack out wide is a huge advantage.  As well as defending it all goes to perdition.  

We'd have to get the ball out wide though

Ah, I believe that is England Rugby Challenge number 204.

Question:  Daddy, what do wings do?
Answer:  I don't know, son.  I am an England supporter.

Silly thing is I agree with the sentiments expressed by the doc and others but May scored three tries this autumn and Watson looked sharp. This with a generally defensive midfield. You can discount May's first try I suppose, that was just searing pace that caught everyone by surprise especially as he picked the ball up in midfield and just let rip.one of the best individual tries we will see from an England player for a long time.

Are we finally learning to use the wings as an attacking option?

I don't know, but then I can remember Cohen running tries in for fun, then there was that Billy Whizz fella.

Not so long ago some guy called Ashton seemed to score a few

doctor_grey wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:If you play Croft you go on the pitch with only 7 forwards and 3 wingers. I think our wingers are good enough to do the wide job themselves. Surely a fit Ewers and Sam Dickinson are way out in front of Croft?

I don't think Cockerill plays his blindsides (not just Croft) on the wing for their finishing skills. It's so they can play the ball wide knowing if it does pearshaped they have a back row specialist who can keep up.  Also their for defence/counter-rucking if they get turned over.

It's not just Cockerill.  A lot of coaches do it from time to time.  I agree it's not so much about finishing skills.  But I think the potential physical mismatch on attack out wide is a huge advantage.  As well as defending it all goes to perdition.  

It's a role Read regularly plays brilliantly for NZ as well. Admittedly Read is stronger in the ruck, heavy traffic and tackle than Croft but if we're not picking guys on the basis of having a more limited skill set than Read it's going to be a pretty barren team sheet!

We keep saying we need more big forward carriers and I would happily have another - hopefully Attwood or Slater can fulfill that in the boiler room. However I feel that our main problem is still an inability to finish chances or turn pressure and phases into line breaks. Both of these could be helped massively by a forward with good support play and whilst we'd sacrifice some rucking and tackle count by dropping Wood, Croft would add support play in abundance.

1.Marler
2.Webber
3.Wilson or Cole
4.Attwood
5.Lawes
6.Croft
7.Robshaw
8.Morgan

9.Youngs or Care
10.Ford

11.May
12.Burrell or Twelvetrees - Would happily see how 12.Twelvtrees 13.Tuilagi or 12.Burrell 13.Tuilagi goes
13.Tuilagi
14.Watson, Wade, Rokoduguni - Any of them offer something unpredictable on the wing
15.Brown

lostinwales wrote:I don't know, but then I can remember Cohen running tries in for fun, then there was that Billy Whizz fella.

Not so long ago some guy called Ashton seemed to score a few

.....and how did England do with Cohen and Robinson in the lineup?

I think it is that ability to make a break or be in the right place in support at any time is a game changer.

I know he's hated but Calum Clark is really starting to put in some ferocious performances...his breakdown work is very impressive and hes a big aggressive physical guy.

Good player but very much in the same mould as Wood. but not as good for my money.

Yes I agree a similar type but Ive watched him closely in the last few Saints game and he's really impressed me.

Yeah, he's played really well but not sure he's going to displace Wood. The big 6 who's a contender for me is Ewers.

Yeah maybe wont replace Wood...

Judging by that dirge I watched on Saturday I don't think any Exeter or Glos players put their hand up , though the second half was slightly better.

Ewers is a big boy alright.

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Ewers is a big boy alright.

Every time I have seen Exeter play this season they have lost and Ewers has been poor. Of course he may have been world class in the other games.

Well I will maintain, I think on current form Clark will be pushing especially if Robshaw doesn't recover from his shoulder issue.

Kvesic has also been playing well in a very poor side. Motm again v Exeter.

Could we merge this and the Robshaw thread nods?

Not suggesting that Wood is not a good player but I was quite impressed by how Garvey has been playing since his return from injury.  He adds a lot in the tight areas of the game.  Totally different player to Wood, but I wonder if he played blindside for England whether this would free up with other backrow members and indeed the second rows to do their own thing.

Lancaster likes athlentic second rows, but sometimes I feel they struggle in the tight and expend too much energy there.  Generally the back five has been fairly light (but athlentic) which is fine, except if they then have to play a tight game.  Garvey seems very good at those sort of chores and he can be a front of the line out option (but not a Croft).

Haskell is our best 6 on form, by a country mile. Has been outstanding in every game I've seen him. He also, when he gets his positioning right, carries better than Wood and Clark, tackles better, and is better over the ball. We'd lose out in the lineout. I think Clark is fast becoming a better version of Wood too. Otherwise Garvey is a decent option.

I've not been overly impressed with Wood this season with Clark looking the better flanker for the majority. Haskell has looked good at 7 but not sure if a Robshaw/Haskell combo is the way forward.

I think the loss of Corbisiero and Cole has been massive to our pack. Not so much in terms of scrummaging as Marler and Wilson have stepped up well, but what they offer above that in terms of carrying and breakdown work. Even Mako would have been useful here, though weaker than Marler in the scrum.

I don't think our back row balance is bad, but it's too reliant on the 8 to carry if there is no support from the tight 5.

I really don't think Corbs adds to carrying above Marler or Mako and certainly not adding to the breakdown. I know I'm biased but even maligned in this role for England Marler makes plenty of tight carries and a lot of tackles and rucks and I can never remember, one try apart, that being one of Corbs' strength. Cole adds a LOT to the breakdown certainly but I don't think he's a better carrier than Wilson, slightly the contrary in fact. And Marler still has the potential to show off the handling and carrying game he has had at Quins, now that he has improved at scrum time

Actually, when he's had the chance (Scotland 2012) Marler has shown excellent hands for England too.

The only bonus of Corbs over Marler is his scrummaging (although Waller has looked better than Corbs this season so perhaps not).

I don't think Wilson or Cole are that great at carrying tbh

Cole is pretty good at the breakdown though

Sgt_Pooly wrote:The only bonus of Corbs over Marler is his scrummaging (although Waller has looked better than Corbs this season so perhaps not).

I don't think Wilson or Cole are that great at carrying tbh

Give him a chance Sgt, Saturday was his first start for quite a while. I do rate Waller though, looks like he left school last week, but he learns very fast and is a brilliant open field runner for a prop.

Davey Wilson has regularly carried excellently for Bath and he was also very good on the Arg tour. Unfortunately he seems to have forgotten to pack his hands for a few high profile England games since though. The first test in NZ springs to mind there.

Proper int rugby is a step up though Carlos

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Proper int rugby is a step up though Carlos

Indeed it is, players have less time to make decisions, and are facing the very best. It is one reason why players have to be completely proficient at the basics of their position as the added extras they bring - that help them shine at club level - are so much harder to do. It is one reason why we should always be careful about pushing for the latest club hotshot to be selected over those with proven international class. Once selected however players do need some time to adapt to the increased pace and pressure of the int game.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I know he's hated but Calum Clark is really starting to put in some ferocious performances...his breakdown work is very impressive and hes a big aggressive physical guy.

who deliberately tried to tear someone's arm off and engaged in flying headbutts in a maul... Can/should someone like that ever be rehabilitated; opposition forwards will do their very best to trigger his dark side. Frankly i think the guy should have had a life ban for his GBH, have never seen the like of it on a rugby pitch.

I don't think Clark has even received a yellow this season has he??

Gwlad

You can look at it both ways.

What he did was utterly shocking...Noone denies that.
Should his ban have been longer. I think probably unanimously we would all say yes.

However he has served the ban and has been very vocal about taming the "demons" in his head. His discipline is very very good....better than his captain.

It depends if you think people should be allowed to try and rehabilitate themselves or if they should be permanently tarred.

And I guess that's a different question.

Purely on form at the moment....you wont find a better flanker and breakdown guy than Clark....way better than Woods current form.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I don't think Clark has even received a yellow this season has he??

He has, last week I believe?

So he has, dragging down a maul.

Clark's ban was nearly three years ago now with no real disciplinary problems since. Bad as it was, I don't think it should still be seen as a factor. I'd like to see him given a go.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:So he has, dragging down a maul.

Nothing too malicious, but that hasn't stopped a lot of the trolls coming out of the woodwork. Do you have the Ultimate Rugby app for the Iphone? There was some pretty vitriolic stuff on there when he was sent off!

bluestonevedder wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:So he has, dragging down a maul.

Nothing too malicious, but that hasn't stopped a lot of the trolls coming out of the woodwork. Do you have the Ultimate Rugby app for the Iphone? There was some pretty vitriolic stuff on there when he was sent off!

Lots of people love their pantomime villains dont they? I guess Clark should shave his head, get some bad tattoos and grow a big beard....

He's quite possibly been the best flanker in the AP this season, I wonder if Stewie will give him a shot?

He'll definitely be in the EPS, but whether he'll be in the matchday squad I'm not sure. SL seems very set on Wood and Robshaw, but the bench spot is up for grabs. 

With Morgan now out, and Billy surely in at 8, Haskell seems like the natural cover. Though has Clark played 8 before?

Well the irony if he isn't Sgt would be that hes been every squad at times when hes been nowhere near worth a spot....to drop him now when he very much IS worth a spot would be not picking on form...

bluestonevedder wrote:He'll definitely be in the EPS, but whether he'll be in the matchday squad I'm not sure. SL seems very set on Wood and Robshaw, but the bench spot is up for grabs. 

With Morgan now out, and Billy surely in at 8, Haskell seems like the natural cover. Though has Clark played 8 before?

Not often, but Robshaw has for Quins.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:He'll definitely be in the EPS, but whether he'll be in the matchday squad I'm not sure. SL seems very set on Wood and Robshaw, but the bench spot is up for grabs. 

With Morgan now out, and Billy surely in at 8, Haskell seems like the natural cover. Though has Clark played 8 before?

Not often, but Robshaw has for Quins.

Um... How about we don't go down the flanker at 8 route again? Robshaw CAN but it should be saved for dire emergency,except Haskell who might have enough experience at 8 for regular bench cover

Robshaw has looked good at 8... In the odd fixture against bottom half teams in the AP, and even then he's only looked good doing the same things he does at 7 anyway.

The problem with Wood at 8 wasn't that Wood played any worse there, it was just that without Morgan we didn't have enough carriers and the balance of the team as a whole suffered. Robshaw/Wood/Clark would probably do fine at 8, but England would play worse.

Fair play then Clark should get his shot but i still find it unpalatable that ANY rugby player can do that to another and still be allowed to play the game. But based on the argument that he served his ban and has changed his ways then of course he deserves one more chance. I hope his victim made a full recovery, does anyone know? I just hope he never does anything like that ever again.

Hawkins made a full recovery, he now plays for us (Falcons).

Just not again with the three flanker routine. It's not the way we play and nearly all the teams at international level realise the need for a decent ratio of carriers.

Robshaw actually DID play 8, effectively anyway, for England. He was always the one who would drop back and field the kicks and operated at 8 in that open play. It didn't work then and it won't work now. Particularly if Lancs goes back to his fetish for lightweight SR partnerships and plays Lawes and Parling together again.

I really really think Haskell has been the stand-out flanker. Really good on the deck, making better decisions at the ruck, good defence out wide, very good defence in the tight especially holding up opposition players to create the maul, decent distribution to get the ball out wide when needs be, and decent carrying. The only thing missing probably is line-out work.

He'd be my choice hands down.

Hood83 wrote:I really really think Haskell has been the stand-out flanker. Really good on the deck, making better decisions at the ruck, good defence out wide, very good defence in the tight especially holding up opposition players to create the maul, decent distribution to get the ball out wide when needs be, and decent carrying. The only thing missing probably is line-out work.

He'd be my choice hands down.

Hurts to admit but agree, is excelling as captain and playing the best rugby of his career. Is still likely a giant tool but if he could put his energy into RWC not his ego i think he could be a stand out player for England.