Etzebeth to Toulon

by **Biltong** Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:20 am

First topic message reminder :

Planet Rugby wrote:According to local paper Var Matin, the Springbok lock will join the club from the South of France after next year's World Cup.

It would be a major coup for Mourad Boudjellal, who will lose Botha at the end of the season when he hangs up his boots.

Clermont Auvergne were believed to be keen on signing Etzebeth from the Stormers, but it seems his heart is set on Toulon.

Etzebeth would join the likes of Mamuka Gorgodze, Ali Williams, Romain Taofifenua and Jocelino Suta as second row options next year, while Samu Manoa is also believed to have signed for the club.

The 23-year-old Etzebeth has 33 Springbok caps to his name since making his debut back in 2012.

by LordDowlais Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:35 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
so what could we do about these clubs taking our best and brightest after our own clubs have invested so much into making them the players they are ?

Give the players longer contracts - then the club is entitled to compensation.

But that means they can't cast them aside if they're not up to it.

Indeed. Loyalty is a two way street I guess.

+1, yes the clubs cannot have it all their own way, also, they would not be able to make a player sign a longer contract. For me, there should be a rule in place where the club that holds the players contract has the first option to offer a new contract before any other club comes to the table, then when another club does come, the club holding the contract should have the right to match or better the offer somebody else is offering. I do not like situations like the one where we saw Owen Williams move to Leceister.

by BamBam Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:39 pm

That isn't a bad idea, but if the player wants to leave anyway, how is that to be solved?

As people, they might want to leave to experience new things etc, preventing that would just result in unhappy players.

I think with the types of players being mentioned it is quite unlikely that the original teams would be able to match the financial terms being offered by the French anyway

Not having a go, just don't see how there can be a practical solution which is fair on all parties

by **Biltong** Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:41 pm

BamBam wrote:That isn't a bad idea, but if the player wants to leave anyway, how is that to be solved?

As people, they might want to leave to experience new things etc, preventing that would just result in unhappy players.

I think with the types of players being mentioned it is quite unlikely that the original teams would be able to match the financial terms being offered by the French anyway

Not having a go, just don't see how there can be a practical solution which is fair on all parties

The players ultimately makes the decision, not the clubs.

by LeinsterFan4life Mon Dec 08, 2014 4:31 pm

I thought the French had a salary cap.

by HammerofThunor Mon Dec 08, 2014 4:35 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I thought the French had a salary cap.

10M Euros isn't it? No idea if it's stuck to in any way.

EDIT: although for these things you rarely hear about the guys leaving, only those signing. If he's on the same as Botha (who's retires) then no change in salary.

by Mad for Chelsea Mon Dec 08, 2014 4:46 pm

The French do have a salary cap, but IIRC it's about twice as high as the England salary cap. Given that it's generally accepted that the English clubs have more financial clout than the Welsh regions, you can only imagine how much more clout the French clubs have...

Reallistically Welsh regions can't compete financially with the French clubs. However, neither can the English clubs or Irish provinces, and they still manage to hold on to nearly all their players (at least those in with a chance of representing the country), so what gives?

Ireland and England have a pretty strict policy on only picking Irish-based players except in exceptional circumstances (Sexton, Wilkinson, and even then they negotiated clauses with their clubs for release). Surely that's the best way forward?

Look at it from the players perspective. You get the chance of earning much more money with very little or no consequence to your international aspirations? Who wouldn't take that opportunity?

I think England and Ireland have got it right. I'm not entirely sure of all the Irish details (I think they have a limit on the amount of non-IQ players in the matchday squads?), but the English RFU also offers bonuses to the Premiership teams who put out more EQ players, right? So: encourage the players to play in their countrie's clubs (or regions/provinces/whatever), encourage the clubs to play homegrown talent, and everyone's a winner?

For Scotland it's a bit different. Only two teams means a much smaller pool, so they should be happier to have some of their players abroad. They should however do as much as possible to encourage their teams to pick as many SQ players as possible (not sure if and to what extent they do this?).

by The Great Aukster Mon Dec 08, 2014 5:04 pm

The European Cup organisers should insist on no more than (say) five players allowed in any match day 23 who have been capped for a country different to the country their club is resident in.

by whocares Mon Dec 08, 2014 5:10 pm

dont think french salary cap (10 M€) is twice the english one (6 million GBP ?) keeping in mind English clubs can also have 2 players out if it. Also doesnt take into account the difference in tax regime. Although some french clubs like Toulon try to escape the salary cap by giving more "extras" to their marquee players (royalties on sponsorship, free car, free air tickets etc), overall the spending limit is pretty much the same between England and France. The difference is therefore on ressources.

by LordDowlais Mon Dec 08, 2014 5:18 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:The European Cup organisers should insist on no more than (say) five players allowed in any match day 23 who have been capped for a country different to the country their club is resident in.

I would be all for this, the only problem is the French would take the CC even less seriously than they already do. Rolling Eyes

by **Rugby Fan** Mon Dec 08, 2014 5:18 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:The European Cup organisers should insist on no more than (say) five players allowed in any match day 23 who have been capped for a country different to the country their club is resident in.

I doubt any arrangement like that would hold up in court. European restraint of trade interpretations have tended to favour players.

by HammerofThunor Mon Dec 08, 2014 5:21 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:The European Cup organisers should insist on no more than (say) five players allowed in any match day 23 who have been capped for a country different to the country their club is resident in.
I doubt any arrangement like that would hold up in court. European restraint of trade interpretations have tended to favour players.

You would also be massively limiting the number of international players in the top competition, which would probably put off sponsors. And if we've learnt anything it's that money is the most important factor.

by whocares Mon Dec 08, 2014 5:21 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:The European Cup organisers should insist on no more than (say) five players allowed in any match day 23 who have been capped for a country different to the country their club is resident in.

even including players that have officially retired from international rugby? I mean the likes of Masoe, Hayman or Williams might think that is unfair on them. Also what do you do with the likes of Gorgodze who do not have a domestic competition to play in?

at the end of the day, just do not cap people playing abroad. that is much easier than the above very odd proposal.

edit : for the sake of the argument, evil Toulon had 10 of them at WR.

by Mad for Chelsea Mon Dec 08, 2014 5:23 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:The European Cup organisers should insist on no more than (say) five players allowed in any match day 23 who have been capped for a country different to the country their club is resident in.
I doubt any arrangement like that would hold up in court. European restraint of trade interpretations have tended to favour players.

yeah the idea has been talked about on various occasions in football and never got through for legal reasons. It'd probably be even more complicated in the UK too...

I'm not entirely sure it should be up to the IRB or the ECC organisers to sort out what should IMO be internal matters in any case.

by Mad for Chelsea Mon Dec 08, 2014 5:26 pm

whocares wrote:dont think french salary cap (10 M€) is twice the english one (6 million GBP ?) keeping in mind English clubs can also have 2 players out if it. Also doesnt take into account the difference in tax regime. Although some french clubs like Toulon try to escape the salary cap by giving more "extras" to their marquee players (royalties on sponsorship, free car, free air tickets etc), overall the spending limit is pretty much the same between England and France. The difference is therefore on ressources.

well you're obviously more versed in the details than I am, so I shall bow to your superior knowledge. However, my point that in general the French clubs seem to have more financial clout than their English counterparts remain. Though obviously not all clubs are equal, my club Bordeaux almost certainly have a smaller budget than the biggest English clubs, but Bordeaux is attractive for other reasons Wink

by SecretFly Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:14 pm

Biltong wrote:

It would be a major coup for Mourad Boudjellal

Major Joke of the year.

Major coup? The guy has had so many coups he doesn't know where to put them. Some are in his locker, some are stuck in his attic, some are on the Bench (and aren't too happy about it if recent pronouncments are to be believed) and some - only some- get to play.

Mourad Coupjella.

by **rodders** Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:20 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote: Though obviously not all clubs are equal, my club Bordeaux almost certainly have a smaller budget than the biggest English clubs, but Bordeaux is attractive for other reasons

I think this is the big elephant in the room that too many people don't want to face.....

... that some places are just nicer to live in than others.... Run

by **Biltong** Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:21 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Biltong wrote:

It would be a major coup for Mourad Boudjellal

Major Joke of the year.

Major coup? The guy has had so many coups he doesn't know where to put them. Some are in his locker, some are stuck in his attic, some are on the Bench (and aren't too happy about it if recent pronouncments are to be believed) and some - only some- get to play.

Mourad Coupjella.

I think you quoted the wrong person here Wink

by The Great Aukster Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:22 pm

Don't understand the legal objections as the competition is still fundamentally a "European" one. If a Test team is unable to select a player from another country, why should a team that is representing their part of Europe be allowed to field all 23 players from a different country?

I don't get the 'sponsors wanting to see internationals' argument either. There is a vehicle for that already called Test rugby. Do they really want to see 46 international players togging out rather than say 10 foreign and say 20 indigenous from both teams? What they want is competitive rugby that has some meaning rather than the same team(s) winning year after year because they have the biggest wallets.

As for retired Test players, so what? They can play in the Leagues every week or be rotated as part of the maximum five in the European Cup.

by SecretFly Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:31 pm

Biltong wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Plant Rugby!!! wrote:

It would be a major coup for Mourad Boudjellal

Major Joke of the year.

Major coup? The guy has had so many coups he doesn't know where to put them. Some are in his locker, some are stuck in his attic, some are on the Bench (and aren't too happy about it if recent pronouncments are to be believed) and some - only some- get to play.

Mourad Coupjella.

I think you quoted the wrong person here

Yeah. Got my quoty things all mixed up. Apologies Bilt.

by whocares Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:47 pm

rodders wrote:
Mad for Chelsea wrote: Though obviously not all clubs are equal, my club Bordeaux almost certainly have a smaller budget than the biggest English clubs, but Bordeaux is attractive for other reasons

I think this is the big elephant in the room that too many people don't want to face.....

... that some places are just nicer to live in than others....

tell me about it, used to grow up there and now have to live close to that dump called Paris.

by bedfordwelsh Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:50 pm

The thing is that after their outburst over Halfpenny and Habana why are they signing more current test players unless Etzebeth or others are going to retire from International rugby.

by Mad for Chelsea Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:53 pm

whocares wrote:
rodders wrote:
Mad for Chelsea wrote: Though obviously not all clubs are equal, my club Bordeaux almost certainly have a smaller budget than the biggest English clubs, but Bordeaux is attractive for other reasons

I think this is the big elephant in the room that too many people don't want to face.....

... that some places are just nicer to live in than others....

tell me about it, used to grow up there and now have to live close to that dump called Paris.

I did it the other way round Very Happy

. Used to live in Paris, now been in Bordeaux for about 4 years.

by wolfball Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:59 pm

Look, the writing is on the wall... it seems the IRFU want the global game to be soccer's poorer cousin (clubs rule, test matches a sideshow) or maybe they can step in and figure out ways to stop the bleeding of Union power.

All the talk of global development of rugby is a sham. At the moment we have 10 tier 1 nations. 6 of them have the potential to win a worldcup (not naming them Wink

). In ten years it maybe only 3-4 can win a world cup as player drain continues to France England and Japan. Teams like ireland, Wales, Scotland (and even NZ!) are going to be put under more and more pressure of player drain as we are all small countries with small populations. But this seems to be what many of you wanted as was made apparent during the ERCC debate. Just don't whinge when all your players are spread across the globe and the 6 nations is played to half full stadiums.

by **LondonTiger** Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:03 pm

wolfball wrote:Look, the writing is on the wall... it seems the IRFU want the global game to be soccer's poorer cousin (clubs rule, test matches a sideshow) or maybe they can step in and figure out ways to stop the bleeding of Union power.

All the talk of global development of rugby is a sham. At the moment we have 10 tier 1 nations. 6 of them have the potential to win a worldcup (not naming them ). In ten years it maybe only 3-4 can win a world cup as player drain continues to France England and Japan. Teams like ireland, Wales, Scotland (and even NZ!) are going to be put under more and more pressure of player drain as we are all small countries with small populations. But this seems to be what many of you wanted as was made apparent during the ERCC debate. Just don't whinge when all your players are spread across the globe and the 6 nations is played to half full stadiums.

Why blame the Irish?

by LeinsterFan4life Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:21 pm

In all fairness the IRB do a good job in spreading the game and helping the smaller unions financially.

There is only so much they can do especially given the corruption in the likes of the Samoan and Fijian unions.

by **Biltong** Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:25 pm

This is the current situation we face in SA with overseas players. I doubt any other country has this depth of a problem, and many of them are our top players.

French Top 14 52
Aviva Premiership 12
Ireland 11
Italy 4
Scotland 7
Wales 8
Japan 17
Australia 9

That is 120 players in the top leagues of world rugby.

by GunsGerms Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:28 pm

Biltong wrote:It's becoming a bit pathetic when SARU can't even hold onto their 23 year old Springboks.

It is time they lay down the law, no overseas players for the Boks, our domestic rugby is suffering because of this, how many more players can Europe and Japan accommodate?

Cant stand Toulon. I wish the FFR and LNR would tighten up on the amount of non EU players allowed in the leagues. IMO teams like Toulon are ruining European rugby. However, clearly they wont as they are greedy.

by GunsGerms Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:34 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
wolfball wrote:Look, the writing is on the wall... it seems the IRFU want the global game to be soccer's poorer cousin (clubs rule, test matches a sideshow) or maybe they can step in and figure out ways to stop the bleeding of Union power.

All the talk of global development of rugby is a sham. At the moment we have 10 tier 1 nations. 6 of them have the potential to win a worldcup (not naming them ). In ten years it maybe only 3-4 can win a world cup as player drain continues to France England and Japan. Teams like ireland, Wales, Scotland (and even NZ!) are going to be put under more and more pressure of player drain as we are all small countries with small populations. But this seems to be what many of you wanted as was made apparent during the ERCC debate. Just don't whinge when all your players are spread across the globe and the 6 nations is played to half full stadiums.

Why blame the Irish?

Yeah, wierd to blame the IRFU. Surely they were in complete opposition to the PRL but in the end had to come to a so called compromise.

by **rodders** Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:43 pm

Biltong wrote:This is the current situation we face in SA with overseas players. I doubt any other country has this depth of a problem, and many of them are our top players.

French Top 14 52
Aviva Premiership 12
Ireland 11
Italy 4
Scotland 7
Wales 8
Japan 17
Australia 9

That is 120 players in the top leagues of world rugby.

Ah here now, I hope you aren't counting Diack, Strauss and Stander in there..... Wink

by **LondonTiger** Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:47 pm

Biltong wrote:This is the current situation we face in SA with overseas players. I doubt any other country has this depth of a problem, and many of them are our top players.

French Top 14 52
Aviva Premiership 12
Ireland 11
Italy 4
Scotland 7
Wales 8
Japan 17
Australia 9

That is 120 players in the top leagues of world rugby.

Would love to know who these are. Only managed to identify half that number so far.

by **rodders** Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:51 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Would love to know who these are. Only managed to identify half that number so far.

Probably because most of them have been capped by England.... Run

by **LondonTiger** Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:53 pm

rodders wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
Would love to know who these are. Only managed to identify half that number so far.

Probably because most of them have been capped by England....

Oof, look at the man in the glass house Very Happy

by **Biltong** Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:48 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Biltong wrote:This is the current situation we face in SA with overseas players. I doubt any other country has this depth of a problem, and many of them are our top players.

French Top 14 52
Aviva Premiership 12
Ireland 11
Italy 4
Scotland 7
Wales 8
Japan 17
Australia 9

That is 120 players in the top leagues of world rugby.

Would love to know who these are. Only managed to identify half that number so far.

Just go to WIki, it gives you all the squad lists.

by **Biltong** Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:56 pm

Francois Louw - Bath
Tim Swiel - Harlequins
Sebastian de Chavez - Leicester
Matthew Dobson - London Welsh
Ben Pienaar - London Welsh
Matt Williams - Northampton
Schalk Brits - Saracens
Brett sharman - Saracens
Petrs du PLessis - Saracens
Alistair Hargreaves - Saracens
Ernst Joubert - Saracens
Neil de Kock - Saracens
Ashley Johnson - Wasps

by The Saint Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:59 pm

Biltong wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
Biltong wrote:This is the current situation we face in SA with overseas players. I doubt any other country has this depth of a problem, and many of them are our top players.

French Top 14 52
Aviva Premiership 12
Ireland 11
Italy 4
Scotland 7
Wales 8
Japan 17
Australia 9

That is 120 players in the top leagues of world rugby.

Would love to know who these are. Only managed to identify half that number so far.

Just go to WIki, it gives you all the squad lists.

Adriaanse, Landman, De man sausage Steenkamp, Bernardo, Earle, Snyman - I counted 6. Does SA really miss those guys in Wales?

Edit: Brok Harris Smile

. Who's the eighth? Surely it can't be Dirksen...

by **Biltong** Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:05 pm

The Saint wrote:
Biltong wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
Biltong wrote:This is the current situation we face in SA with overseas players. I doubt any other country has this depth of a problem, and many of them are our top players.

French Top 14 52
Aviva Premiership 12
Ireland 11
Italy 4
Scotland 7
Wales 8
Japan 17
Australia 9

That is 120 players in the top leagues of world rugby.

Would love to know who these are. Only managed to identify half that number so far.

Just go to WIki, it gives you all the squad lists.

Adriaanse, Landman, De man sausage Steenkamp, Bernardo, Earle, Snyman - I counted 6. Does SA really miss those guys in Wales?

Edit: Brok Harris . Who's the eighth? Surely it can't be Dirksen...

It adds up Saint, we are going to have a sixth franchise in the convoluted ne Super 18, and with 120 players overseas how do you think it affects the strength of our local teams?

by wolfball Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:06 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
wolfball wrote:Look, the writing is on the wall... it seems the IRFU want the global game to be soccer's poorer cousin (clubs rule, test matches a sideshow) or maybe they can step in and figure out ways to stop the bleeding of Union power.

All the talk of global development of rugby is a sham. At the moment we have 10 tier 1 nations. 6 of them have the potential to win a worldcup (not naming them ). In ten years it maybe only 3-4 can win a world cup as player drain continues to France England and Japan. Teams like ireland, Wales, Scotland (and even NZ!) are going to be put under more and more pressure of player drain as we are all small countries with small populations. But this seems to be what many of you wanted as was made apparent during the ERCC debate. Just don't whinge when all your players are spread across the globe and the 6 nations is played to half full stadiums.

Why blame the Irish?

Yeah, wierd to blame the IRFU. Surely they were in complete opposition to the PRL but in the end had to come to a so called compromise.

TYPO! IRB of course Wink

by The Saint Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:14 pm

Biltong wrote:
The Saint wrote:
Biltong wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
Biltong wrote:This is the current situation we face in SA with overseas players. I doubt any other country has this depth of a problem, and many of them are our top players.

French Top 14 52
Aviva Premiership 12
Ireland 11
Italy 4
Scotland 7
Wales 8
Japan 17
Australia 9

That is 120 players in the top leagues of world rugby.

Would love to know who these are. Only managed to identify half that number so far.

Just go to WIki, it gives you all the squad lists.

Adriaanse, Landman, De man sausage Steenkamp, Bernardo, Earle, Snyman - I counted 6. Does SA really miss those guys in Wales?

Edit: Brok Harris . Who's the eighth? Surely it can't be Dirksen...

It adds up Saint, we are going to have a sixth franchise in the convoluted ne Super 18, and with 120 players overseas how do you think it affects the strength of our local teams?

When you put it like that, yeah definitely. I thought SA provincial teams could offer better than us though.

by **Biltong** Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:19 pm

The Saint wrote:
Biltong wrote:
The Saint wrote:
Biltong wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
Biltong wrote:This is the current situation we face in SA with overseas players. I doubt any other country has this depth of a problem, and many of them are our top players.

French Top 14 52
Aviva Premiership 12
Ireland 11
Italy 4
Scotland 7
Wales 8
Japan 17
Australia 9

That is 120 players in the top leagues of world rugby.

Would love to know who these are. Only managed to identify half that number so far.

Just go to WIki, it gives you all the squad lists.

Adriaanse, Landman, De man sausage Steenkamp, Bernardo, Earle, Snyman - I counted 6. Does SA really miss those guys in Wales?

Edit: Brok Harris . Who's the eighth? Surely it can't be Dirksen...

It adds up Saint, we are going to have a sixth franchise in the convoluted ne Super 18, and with 120 players overseas how do you think it affects the strength of our local teams?

When you put it like that, yeah definitely. I thought SA provincial teams could offer better than us though.

Think about the fact that you can build 4 squads of 30 out of the overseas players, if you take the top 60 players you will be able to build two squads that can beat the Kings, Lions and Cheetahs.

by **Notch** Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:20 pm

Biltong wrote:
Notch wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Us Welsh have been living with this for years now, first we lost a whole generation to rugby league, now we have been losing our best players to the rich clubs in France and England, I know exactly how frustrating it is, but just remember, you bring an over seas policy in and it WILL affect your national side, you cannot blame a player wanting to earn more money elsewhere, perhaps your union should bring central contracts or dual contracts like we are doing, to stem the tide.

You do understand that the SARU already have central contracts right?

No we don't mate, SARU has only 20 contracted Springboks.

Right, so the SARU centrally contracts players specifically for the national side. Thats central contracting.

by **Biltong** Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:30 pm

Notch wrote:
Biltong wrote:
Notch wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Us Welsh have been living with this for years now, first we lost a whole generation to rugby league, now we have been losing our best players to the rich clubs in France and England, I know exactly how frustrating it is, but just remember, you bring an over seas policy in and it WILL affect your national side, you cannot blame a player wanting to earn more money elsewhere, perhaps your union should bring central contracts or dual contracts like we are doing, to stem the tide.

You do understand that the SARU already have central contracts right?

No we don't mate, SARU has only 20 contracted Springboks.

Right, so the SARU centrally contracts players specifically for the national side. Thats central contracting.

Perhaps, but the way we see central contracting is the way NZ does it, all their super rugby players are contracted by the NZRU

by **Notch** Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:33 pm

Yeah thats one way of doing it. But thats just one form of central contracting.

I would describe what Ireland have as central contracting but the Union only directly employs about 20 players.

by broadlandboy Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:35 pm

Bilt, love the fact of trying to claim Ben Pienarr as SA having been to Langley & Greshams (both Norfolk) Schools. Started club rugby at North Walsham & Tigers academy. Have a feeling there are more dual qualified

by Sin é Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:36 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:The European Cup organisers should insist on no more than (say) five players allowed in any match day 23 who have been capped for a country different to the country their club is resident in.
I doubt any arrangement like that would hold up in court. European restraint of trade interpretations have tended to favour players.

Only if they are EU citizens.

by **Biltong** Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:36 pm

broadlandboy wrote:Bilt, love the fact of trying to claim Ben Pienarr as SA having been to Langley & Greshams (both Norfolk) Schools. Started club rugby at North Walsham & Tigers academy. Have a feeling there are more dual qualified

Remove ten players if you wish, the point remains

by broadlandboy Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:53 pm

Siné or Kolpak countries. Also you will surprised at how many players have European passports as well. IIRC at Tigers Salvi has an Italian & Matera has a German. I believe that there is a restriction in the Jeff of 2 or 3 "foreign" players on the pitch but EU & Kolpak countries are not included as "foreign"

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