How to sound bitter and lose your reputation

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/dec/07/martin-castrogiovanni-leicester-richard-cockerill-toulon

This is sad. I used to think Castrogiovanni was great.

Now he's just making himself seem pathetic. And using these swear words to the national press doesn't help.

He went from 1st choice to 2nd/3rd choice - it happens. Just leave on good terms to the best club where you get game time, whether that's Toulon or a 2nd division Italian side.

Cockerill slagged him off to the press and wouldn't let him out his contract after all his years of service, castro obviously still feels hard done by, not the best way to deal with it but for me its a fair reflection on his treatment.

Personally I can see Castrogiovanni's point of view - no one wants to be seen as 2nd choice.

The loss of top dog status is tough to take.

Cole is obviously the local Leicester boy and England tight head.

Though going to Toulon is hardly the place to be first choice tight head because of the greater competition!

If Castrogiovanni believes the club has taken a turn for the worse he is entitled to his opinion.

Cockerill doesn't come across as the easiest person to get along with either.

beshocked wrote:Personally I can see Castrogiovanni's point of view - no one wants to be seen as 2nd choice.

The loss of top dog status is tough to take.

Cole is obviously the local Leicester boy and England tight head.

Though going to Toulon is hardly the place to be first choice tight head because of the greater competition!

If Castrogiovanni believes the club has taken a turn for the worse he is entitled to his opinion.

Cockerill doesn't come across as the easiest person to get along with either.

And clearly better.

Castro is my youngest daughter's hero. I cannot let her see this piece as the language he chooses to use would destroy her.

sure he is entitled to an opinion, but expressing it in such a foul mouthed way when his team has just lost belittles him.

That piece gave me a good laugh, especially the **** what you say in English.
Though surely he could of issued a statement at the time he left about buying himself out of his contract as he is implying there.
Can't believe the Guardian actually printed that language either.

This is from when he left.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/club-rugby/martin-castrogiovanni-has-lost-all-respect-for-leicester-tigers-director-of-rugby-richard-cockerill-8688128.html

Note, he says he was given a "very interesting offer from a financial point of view" although it wasn't the primary reason for him leaving (has any player EVER moved primarily for the money? It's usually for the life experience). He says he didn't like being rotated, but that's what Leicester did with their props, and I would be surprised that it had a big impact on Cole getting injured last year with sudden shift in game time. Teams have to plan their recruitment in terms of years, they would have planned to have Castro for at least another year and losing him meant they would need to scout out for another class tighthead, which is costly and may have required another contract buy out.

HammerofThunor wrote:

beshocked wrote:Personally I can see Castrogiovanni's point of view - no one wants to be seen as 2nd choice.

The loss of top dog status is tough to take.

Cole is obviously the local Leicester boy and England tight head.

Though going to Toulon is hardly the place to be first choice tight head because of the greater competition!

If Castrogiovanni believes the club has taken a turn for the worse he is entitled to his opinion.

Cockerill doesn't come across as the easiest person to get along with either.

And clearly better.

He is now yes. That's why Castro wanted to go too. Of course the pay day in France wouldn't have harmed too.

Not the first Tigers player to leave because he wasn't top dog - e.g. Twelvetrees and Ford.

Thanks Hammer, interesting read, think everything needing saying had already been covered at the time he left so it sort of reinforces the title of this thread.

beshocked wrote:

He is now yes. That's why Castro wanted to go too. Of course the pay day in France wouldn't have harmed too.

Not the first Tigers player to leave because he wasn't top dog - e.g. Twelvetrees and Ford.

Big difference is that Ford and 36 are first choice at their new clubs. Castro for most of last season was 3rd choice at Toulon.

True Londontiger. Obviously it has backfired on Castrogiovanni.

beshocked wrote:True Londontiger. Obviously it has backfired on Castrogiovanni.

Well he is living in a fantastic place, has a much higher salary and has T14 and HEC winners medals so not exactly backfired - just not playing week in week out as he states he wants to.

I am sure that as with previous cult heroes, Castro will retain the fans love - this is just a tad pathetic from him.

Well that was a disappointing read from a very well respected player of our game.

Rise above it Castro as you've made yourself look like a right ----!

TightHEAD wrote:Well that was a disappointing read from a very well respected player of our game.

Rise above it Castro as you've made yourself look like a right ----!

It will be tomorrows chip paper. Heck Geordie may even put a copy up in the loos at their Pasta emporium

LondonTiger wrote:

beshocked wrote:True Londontiger. Obviously it has backfired on Castrogiovanni.

Well he is living in a fantastic place, has a much higher salary and has T14 and HEC winners medals so not exactly backfired - just not playing week in week out as he states he wants to.

I am sure that as with previous cult heroes, Castro will retain the fans love - this is just a tad pathetic from him.

True but I meant it backfired if it is to be believed that the primary reason he left was to be top dog.

Toulon agreed a fee with Tigers then backed out the deal. Castro then asked to leave for free. Understandably Tigers said no. He had a year left on his deal and Tigers had looked after him following his loss of form from his gluten issue. He wanted the cash and Toulon wanted their man so Tigers wanted compensation. Castro is a bit over emotional and this is the reaction you get.

Give him credit for saying it like it is.

It is one thing saying what he thinks. It is another with the language used.

Christ's sake...you know someone has a point when people complain about foul language

He's Italian...he'll use language his way, not fleet street's way, or Convention's way.  His way.

Now, the media might then feel inclined not to cover it, broadcast it or print it - their prerogative - but Castro says what he feels and colours his mood his way, not politically correct society's way.

SecretFly wrote:Christ's sake...you know someone has a point when people complain about foul language

He's Italian...he'll use language his way, not fleet street's way, or Convention's way.  His way.

Now, the media might then feel inclined not to cover it, broadcast it or print it - their prerogative - but Castro says what he feels and colours his mood his way, not politically correct society's way.

No, he is not.

Oh and the point he is making is garbage any way. I will however defend his right to express his opinion - even when it is complete tosh.

SecretFly wrote:Christ's sake...you know someone has a point when people complain about foul language

He's Italian...he'll use language his way, not fleet street's way, or Convention's way.  His way.

Now, the media might then feel inclined not to cover it, broadcast it or print it - their prerogative - but Castro says what he feels and colours his mood his way, not politically correct society's way.

 He's from argentina but has some Italian blood dangerous mix,  it was just going to happen.

 TBH he got embarrassed at scrum time.

 It interesting because Rizzo, Leo and Barbieri all said how Castro said nice things about the Leicester team and it made it easier for them to move here?

 D.Armitage actions were far worse imo.

If what D. Armitage reportedly said is true then yes, his actions are definitely worse in my opinion

LondonTiger wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Christ's sake...you know someone has a point when people complain about foul language

He's Italian...he'll use language his way, not fleet street's way, or Convention's way.  His way.

Now, the media might then feel inclined not to cover it, broadcast it or print it - their prerogative - but Castro says what he feels and colours his mood his way, not politically correct society's way.

No, he is not.

Oh and the point he is making is garbage any way. I will however defend his right to express his opinion - even when it is complete tosh.

His points seem to be:

He wasn't getting gametime, therefore he wasn't going to play bench boy.
He used some of his own money to buy himself out of contract.
He then says Cockerill dished the dirt on him by suggesting he was chasing money, and to him that was an act without honour between two alleged friends.

Now, on a purely factual level, how much of that is tosh?  

Cockerill, for his part, seems to say That's rugby.  Castro will get over it one day and they'll have a good old laugh about it.  But I don't think I've heard him distinctly say Castro is talking tosh

Unfortunately as he has chosen to fly off the handle, his language and actions makes his argument lose credibility. He may well have been treated poorly by Cockers, but that is now clouded. Given the length of time that has passed, it is strange that he appears to still harbour such a grudge. Move on Castro

SecretFly wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Christ's sake...you know someone has a point when people complain about foul language

He's Italian...he'll use language his way, not fleet street's way, or Convention's way.  His way.

Now, the media might then feel inclined not to cover it, broadcast it or print it - their prerogative - but Castro says what he feels and colours his mood his way, not politically correct society's way.

No, he is not.

Oh and the point he is making is garbage any way. I will however defend his right to express his opinion - even when it is complete tosh.

His points seem to be:

He wasn't getting gametime, therefore he wasn't going to play bench boy.
He used some of his own money to buy himself out of contract.
He then says Cockerill dished the dirt on him by suggesting he was chasing money, and to him that was an act without honour between two alleged friends.

Now, on a purely factual level, how much of that is tosh?  

Cockerill, for his part, seems to say That's rugby.  Castro will get over it one day and they'll have a good old laugh about it.  But I don't think I've heard him distinctly say Castro is talking tosh

He had a year left on his contract, Toulon initially agreed to buy his last year of his contract out and then backed away. This left Castro with a choice, leave and pay the release fee himself or stay. He chose the former

HongKongCherry wrote:Unfortunately as he has chosen to fly off the handle, his language and actions makes his argument lose credibility.  He may well have been treated poorly by Cockers, but that is now clouded.  Given the length of time that has passed, it is strange that he appears to still harbour such a grudge. Move on Castro

Why is it clouded?

He is obviously not happy, no matter the manner of his comments, he feels strongly about them, and sometimes it is necessary to be more forceful in the manner one communicates, if someone does not like the manner in which he did it, doesn't change what he says.

SecretFly wrote:
His points seem to be:

He wasn't getting gametime, therefore he wasn't going to play bench boy.
He used some of his own money to buy himself out of contract.
He then says Cockerill dished the dirt on him by suggesting he was chasing money, and to him that was an act without honour between two alleged friends.

Now, on a purely factual level, how much of that is tosh?  

Cockerill, for his part, seems to say That's rugby.  Castro will get over it one day and they'll have a good old laugh about it.  But I don't think I've heard him distinctly say Castro is talking tosh

 1) He is a bench warmer at Toulon
 2) Only because Toulon messed about and at the last minute said they weren't going to pay it
 3) Why it wasn't for the game time.
 
 It wasn't tosh, but I pretty sure if he wanted game time there are other clubs about.

nathan wrote:

He had a year left on his contract, Toulon initially agreed to buy his last year of his contract out and then backed away. This left Castro with a choice, leave and pay the release fee himself or stay. He chose the former

Correct.

But nothing he says contradicts that.  He paid money to leave a club he didn't feel was in a position to give him what he wanted - gametime.  And when he left, the guy he considered a good guy, accused him of walking for money - ie, desertion from the Leicester army for mere money.

Castro is saying he walked because the Army didn't want/need him anymore and he wanted to Play.  And his colourful language is saying that Cockerill couldn't bring himself to tell that truth at the time and prefered instead to cast blame and betrayal down Castro's road - hinting that he prefered the mercenary way to the loyalty way.

I think there is grounds enough for any proud player to be annoyed by his perception of events.  It's up to Cockerill to say the perception is all wrong.  But from what I read of his response, he doesn't.

He played more in the last season of Leicester than the first season of Toulon.

Welly wrote: 
 It wasn't tosh, but I pretty sure if he wanted game time there are other clubs about.

Well, that and a Crystal ball to tell him Toulon also wanted a benchboy I'm sure that's what they were saying to him when he signed: "Now, Castro...you know this is only a bench warming deal. Little or no gametime - you're too old and breathless now."

SecretFly wrote:

nathan wrote:

He had a year left on his contract, Toulon initially agreed to buy his last year of his contract out and then backed away. This left Castro with a choice, leave and pay the release fee himself or stay. He chose the former

Correct.

But nothing he says contradicts that.  He paid money to leave a club he didn't feel was in a position to give him what he wanted - gametime.  And when he left, the guy he considered a good guy, accused him of walking for money - ie, desertion from the Leicester army for mere money.

Castro is saying he walked because the Army didn't want/need him anymore and he wanted to Play.  And his colourful language is saying that Cockerill couldn't bring himself to tell that truth at the time and prefered instead to cast blame and betrayal down Castro's road - hinting that he prefered the mercenary way to the loyalty way.

I think there is grounds enough for any proud player to be annoyed by his perception of events.  It's up to Cockerill to say the perception is all wrong.  But from what I read of his response, he doesn't.

But did cockerill actually say he left for purely money reasons?

Hayman was there, if he couldn't get past cole it would be just as hard to have gotten past hayman 2 years ago.

 In that case it was his ego.

 But there is nothing wrong with wanting a good amount of money anyway.

SecretFly wrote:

Welly wrote: 
 It wasn't tosh, but I pretty sure if he wanted game time there are other clubs about.

Well, that and a Crystal ball to tell him Toulon also wanted a benchboy  I'm sure that's what they were saying to him when he signed:  "Now, Castro...you know this is only a bench warming deal.  Little or no gametime - you're too old and breathless now."

Doesn't take a genius to work out that if your moving to a team full of international players that you won't spending a fair chunk of your time on the bench.

nathan wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Welly wrote: 
 It wasn't tosh, but I pretty sure if he wanted game time there are other clubs about.

Well, that and a Crystal ball to tell him Toulon also wanted a benchboy  I'm sure that's what they were saying to him when he signed:  "Now, Castro...you know this is only a bench warming deal.  Little or no gametime - you're too old and breathless now."

Doesn't take a genius to work out that if your moving to a team full of international players that you won't spending a fair chunk of your time on the bench.

It's not what Toulon said to him when they hired him though, was it? It's not about what Toulon eventually gave Castro (another bench), it's his reasons for leaving Leicester and what he considers a slur on parting from a guy he obviously respected a lot. It's a kick in the balls, to be Castro blunt about it It is Nathan. If a guy you considered a friend waved bye to you with what you considered an insult, you'd be a might p-iss-ed too. Castro seems pretty pi-ss-ed

SecretFly wrote:

  Castro seems pretty pi-ss-ed    

 understatement of the year.

nathan wrote:But did cockerill actually say he left for purely money reasons?

I don't know. I wasn't at any of the meetings that obviously went on between the two guys. And not every opinion that a coach or player might have needs a public exposure to 'Prove' things got said. The two of them will know the attitudes that existed between them as the relationship ended.
The point is Castro obviously feels that 'mercenary' was the pointed slur. He obviously feels he has grounds for having that opinion. And like I say, it was up to Cockerill to deny that was the intention of any of his words (publically or privately).

Welly wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

  Castro seems pretty pi-ss-ed    

 understatement of the year.

emmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...I don't know. Maybe some cultures Do emote more. Some think 'shock' when they read what Castro says. I'd have heard a lot worse in my time from people a ton more pi-ss-ed than Castro. Indeed, I'm sure most of us have heard much worse through our lives in workplaces and possibly even family. I'd put Castro's meltdown at about 6 on a scale of 1 to 10

SecretFly wrote:

nathan wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Welly wrote: 
 It wasn't tosh, but I pretty sure if he wanted game time there are other clubs about.

Well, that and a Crystal ball to tell him Toulon also wanted a benchboy  I'm sure that's what they were saying to him when he signed:  "Now, Castro...you know this is only a bench warming deal.  Little or no gametime - you're too old and breathless now."

Doesn't take a genius to work out that if your moving to a team full of international players that you won't spending a fair chunk of your time on the bench.

It's not what Toulon said to him when they hired him though, was it?  It's not about what Toulon eventually gave Castro (another bench), it's his reasons for leaving Leicester and what he considers a slur on parting from a guy he obviously respected a lot.  It's a kick in the balls, to be Castro blunt about it  It is Nathan.  If a guy you considered a friend waved bye to you with what you considered an insult, you'd be a might p-iss-ed too.  Castro seems pretty pi-ss-ed    

Your implying all sorts of things to reach that conclusion though. Were they friends? How do you know Toulon didn't say that? Did cockers say anything untoward when Castro left?

After all the unanswered questions, you then say it's a kick in the balls.

I could easily enough say it's a kick in the balls to the club after Castro has used those words regarding our coach after the amount of resources the club put into making the player he is today, or he is upset due to him wanting to be first choice all the time and the team he was going to pulled out of the initial agreement.

I just can't see how anyone can stick up for him. I wouldn't say I hate the bloke, but our club is very family orientated and to think a lot of the younger generation would of seen, heard or read his outburst.

What has Delon done, seen a few references in this thread.

LondonTiger wrote:What has Delon done, seen a few references in this thread.

 From what I have heard and a number of people have said the same thing even before it hit the internet.

 Delon called Tigers fans a bunch of inbr*d C*nts and tried to stir up the crowd when walking towards the coach after the game.

 Aslo heard he called on young fan trying to get his autograph a little c*nt and a adult fan trying to call him on what he just said a C*nt.

 Last statement was from the forums.

 the first I heard before it reached the main forums.

Wonder how if at all this will affect reservations in his restaurants in Leicester. As he co-owns them with Geordan Murphy I wonder how Murphy feels about this bad press.

I stand to be corrected here but I thought Castro had nothing to do with the restaurant now. In fact I've heard that neither does Murphy and there were some money issues. All very possibly internet Love sacks though, of course.

Whilst Castro's grievances with Cockers and the Tigers may have some validity, his foul language has completely undermined him. Calling anyone a c*nt to the press is just unacceptable imo. Also if you look at the situation as a whole Castro may have been aggrieved to be on the bench but he was still contracted to the Tigers for one more season, and Cockers was probably planning on that for the next season, so despite him having to pay his own transfer fee, Tigers were completely in their rights to ask for compensation. One final point also, if you read the whole transcript he has a rant at Cockers for Tigers' poor form this season and says he's close to the sack. It just shows how wayward this whole attack was and I think Castro will regret it, as he is a true legend of the  club and it was a shame for him even to come close to putting that endanger, when a more reserved statement would still have made the same point but would not lost him any of the acclaim from Tigers fans.

Doesn't sound like a passionate rant to me
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/30386227?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed

Anyone wonder if he'll be done for bringing the game into disrepute?

I'd prefer he wasn't, just want the rant swept under the carpet and forgotton

Statement from Castro

First of all I want to make amends for my profanity and apologise to everyone feeling offended by what I said, I’m sorry if my words have created misunderstandings.

It also wasn’t my intention to offend anyone, but only to point out my position after some statements. I hate lies and hypocrisy. I have always been a loyal person and I have been loyal to all the people I worked with. I felt to be attacked but moreover Toulon was attacked, and my feelings were I had to protect my team from yet another provocation.

I have always loved the Tigers, I grew up there and spent seven wonderful years, unique. Leicester supporters have made me feel at home, a beautiful piece of my heart is still there and when I went away it was not because of my will. I love rugby and the only thing I want to do is play, so I went to France, at Toulon, one of the best teams in the world.

There's no doubt that Cockerill does go on about Toulon being full of highly paid foreign players. He said so at least twice in interviews just before and during the match.

I don't know whether Cockerill has directly accused Castro of leaving for money, or whether Castro feels disrespected by association, but it seems clear to me that the Italian believes he has been insulted. If he genuinely didn't leave for financial reasons, and is being accused of disloyalty for doing so, then his irritation is understandable.

The Telegraph says his comments will be investigated by the EPCR, who will also look into allegations against Armitage.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/european-rugby/11281287/Toulon-players-Martin-Castrogiovanni-and-Delon-Armitage-under-investigation-after-Leicester-incidents.html

More news here:

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/dec/08/martin-castrogiovanni-sorry-foul-mouthed-outburst-leicester-richard-cockerill-toulon

I suspect Castro (and Armitage) were peed off at losing.

If this is officially investigated, how quick is the process? Is it like citing?

Castro will get nothing more than a caution and a reminder about image of rugby he's supposed to help represent.

If and I stress if Armitage has verbally abused a young fan seeking an autograph then he should get the book thrown at him.

hopefully Castro just gets a slapped wrist, I honestly think he didn't understand the gravity of the words he was using. He's done the right thing in apologising for his profanity.

Armitage on the other hand, if found guilty can be chucked out of rugby for all I care

Sounds bitter and angry. Don't think he's lost his reputation though.

He's always been known as passionate and hot-headed type, but also generous with his time with fans. He wouldn't be someone you want angry with you and he has a capacity for being a right arse on the field. There is the good and the bad. This doesn't change my perception of him at all. I also have worked under people who I would happily describe with very choice language, suspect I'm not alone in that respect on here.

As I say, he's always had a reputation for being good with fans. What Armitage is accused of doings several orders of magnitude worse.