Matt O'Connor Clock - tick tock

Lets face it there is a big elephant in the Leinster locker room. Surely its time to face facts, we dont have the right coach in place. Leinster are going no where fast. They have regessed and are playing some really dire rugby. At this alarming rate of decline I wouldnt be surprised if Leinster failed to progress from their group and if they fail to finish the league ahead of Connacht this season.

The question is who would you prefer to coach Leinster, what are the options and how soon can they be put in place?

Personally I reckon almost anyone would be better. Some options:

Robbie Deans
Ewan McKensie
Bernard Jackman
Eddie O'Sullivan

GunsGerms wrote:Lets face it there is a big elephant in the Leinster locker room. Surely its time to face facts, we dont have the right coach in place. Leinster are going no where fast. They have regessed and are playing some really dire rugby. At this alarming rate of decline I wouldnt be surprised if Leinster failed to progress from their group and if they fail to finish the league ahead of Connacht this season.

The question is who would you prefer to coach Leinster, what are the options and how soon can they be put in place?

Personally I reckon almost anyone would be better. Some options:

Robbie Deans
Ewan McKensie
Bernard Jackman
Eddie O'Sullivan

You can rule out Robbie Deans anyway!

Regrets [from Deans]? There may be a few. Examine the biography's pages on the Australia years and there are reservations about a lack of support from the ARU when it counted, perceptions of empire building by former high performance unit boss David Nucifora, a lack of control over player contracting, conditioning issues at the Super franchises, finding out after the ....

Eddie O'Sullivan is probably your best option there. Jackman is doing great in France - leave him there.

Where's Deccie at these days?

He works for UCC. He would probably be better than MOC in fairness but he wasnt particularly sucessful at Leinster before.

rodders wrote:Where's Deccie at these days?

Director of Sport and Physical Activity at UCC.

When is his contract up? Last season we won the league and got to the quarter final of the HC. If we do the same this year it'd be a tad unfair to sack him. But if his contract runs out I wouldn't be in a rush to extend it.

Me and SecretFly have already decided who the best coach for Leinster is on another thread. It's obviously Ronan O'Gara.

Does he have any experience other than being a kicking coach?

Rugby's getting just like football. Tut tut

HammerofThunor wrote:Rugby's getting just like football. Tut tut

It might feel appear that way if you judge it only on 1 round of the ERCC. However this has been building for quite a while and the more time MOC has had to put his imprint on his side, the further Leinster have regressed. It's backwards in playing style, it's poor training practices, it's an unsettled selection policy, late changes to starting lineups that invariably mean positional changes. These were all things that both Cheika and Schmidt had figured out, MOC didn't have to reinvent the wheel in this regard. Leinster, as a pro12 and HCup side, weren't reliant on Cullen and BOD for the vast majority of previous seasons, the rest of the squad (which is still there) did the hard graft, kept the playing intensity up, and delivered the results. He got in Kane Douglas for Cullen and Teo for BOD, tbh it will take a season for either of those to really settle in so I won't judge him on those. But it was a strong squad with a defined style where players could slot in and out when required, he has managed to lose that in a season and a quarter!

It doesn't always work out. What would have been the odds of hitting gold 3 coaches in a row (when all coaches were taking up the head coach role for the first time at that level)?

Girvan Dempsey is doing well in the academy. I don't think Leo is doing enough as forwards coach to keep hold of that job let alone think about taking over as a head coach.

Just joining in. Usually if a coach is sacked the calls of 'football football' ring out. Some coaches just don't fit with some teams.

And there are some Tigers fans who think we miss him.

 Lol.

Looks like Jonno Gibbes work was a bit underrated at Leinster. He's the reason behind Clermont historic win in Thomond. He has added the required structure to their preparation by having a second XV dedicated to play all main Munster set moves during all last week so that the first team was ready.

Leinster fans never underrated Gibbes. We all knew it was him who turned our pack around from Ladyboys into ladymen, and he was the constant in all our European Cup triumphs. Clermont have a great coach there and he may help them finally win the Cup they should have won by now.

double post.

whocares wrote:Looks like Jonno Gibbes work was a bit underrated at Leinster. He's the reason behind Clermont historic win in Thomond. He has added the required structure to their preparation by having a second XV dedicated to play all main Munster set moves during all last week so that the first team was ready.

Agree with that, Leinster still had the Joe Schmidt effect too, now that it is gone they are a pretty ordinary side, injuries notwithstanding which is pretty sad to see

You could argue Leinster are missing crucial players which has effected their chances (Healy, SOB - injured. BOD - retired). They're doing well considering this. Munster on the other hand have POC, POM and Murray, and are looking like they have some good depth. I think they've overtaken Leinster. Don't panic, just swings and roundabouts...

I never understood moc appointment in first place. It seemed a cheap option

The Saint wrote:You could argue Leinster are missing crucial players which has effected their chances (Healy, SOB - injured. BOD - retired). They're doing well considering this. Munster on the other hand have POC, POM and Murray, and are looking like they have some good depth. I think they've overtaken Leinster. Don't panic, just swings and roundabouts...

I dont buy that to be honest. Leinster have always rotated heavily so we should be able to maintain standards. However, the miminum standard is very low. We are a point ahead of Connacht in the league FFS. Not good enough really.

Are you not meant to givethe coach a season or two to settle in?

In fairness the quality of player O'Connor has is a long way behind what his predecessors have had:-

Wagga/Thorn/Cullen vs McCarthy/Douglas
Sexton vs Gopperth
SOB/Jennings/Elsom vs Murphy/Ryan/Conan
Horgan/Hickie/Nacewa vs Fanning
O'Driscoll vs Reid/Madigan

Thats a big drop of in quality and experience on the right.

Key players like Ross, Reddan, D'arcy, Boss are getting on a bit too.

For me there is a lot of poor coaches and recruitment going on across the provinces and the finger needs to be pointed at Nucifera and the IRFU. Too much jobs for the boys (Cullen,Doak,Foley), average NIEs and lengthy contract extensions for aging players.

rodders wrote:In fairness the quality of player O'Connor has is a long way behind what his predecessors have had:-

Wagga/Thorn/Cullen vs McCarthy/Douglas
Sexton vs Gopperth
SOB/Jennings/Elsom vs Murphy/Ryan/Conan
Horgan/Hickie/Nacewa vs Fanning
O'Driscoll vs Reid/Madigan

Thats a big drop of in quality and experience on the right.

Key players like Ross, Reddan, D'arcy, Boss are getting on a bit too.

For me there is a lot of poor coaches and recruitment going on across the provinces and the finger needs to be pointed at Nucifera and the IRFU. Too much jobs for the boys (Cullen,Doak,Foley), average NIEs and lengthy contract extensions for aging players.

I disagree with you Rodders. Every time a so called great player like Rocky Elsom left someone else filled their shoes because the province was managed well and younger players like SOB who were managed well were allowed to shine.

Sexton for example should have been replaced by Madigan but MOC has completely botched that transition. O'Driscoll was replaced by T'eo but he has been injured. (Nothing you can do there but Reid has been ok)

The bottom line Rodders is that Leinster have a very strong squad of players that are badly underperforming. In many of Ireland's games this year for example there have been 9 or 10 Leinster players playing. Ireland v Wales in the 6N for example. If they are good enough to play really well for Ireland then surely they are good enough to play well for Leinster.

nathan wrote:Are you not meant to givethe coach a season or two to settle in?

Yes you are but this isnt about settling in anymore as we keep going backwards.

GunsGerms wrote:

nathan wrote:Are you not meant to givethe coach a season or two to settle in?

Yes you are but this isnt about settling in anymore as we keep going backwards.

But are the players not to blame for that too? for example, nothing the coach could do about a player throwing an intercept pass.

nathan wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

nathan wrote:Are you not meant to givethe coach a season or two to settle in?

Yes you are but this isnt about settling in anymore as we keep going backwards.

But are the players not to blame for that too? for example, nothing the coach could do about a player throwing an intercept pass.

No I dont think they are. Our season isnt defined by an intercept pass. Ultimate responsibility lies with the manager and Leinster have been a mess for a while now. The issues are systemic.

I don't think Madigan is even close to Sexton - Teo for O'Driscoll? Are you serious?

I think Schmidt has Ireland overperforming rather than Leinster underperforming. Leinster have a very average looking squad to me and they've been grinding out results against better teams which is something O'Connor deserves a bit of credit for.

Yes its cringeworthy at times but there is very little strike threat there,either in terms of ball carrying and genuine pace in the outside backs. I think O'Connor isn't a great coach and should take some of the blame for the uninspired performances but comparing him to Schmidt or Cheika is unrealistic given the relative resources he has.

rodders wrote:I don't think Madigan is even close to Sexton - Teo for O'Driscoll? Are you serious?

I think Schmidt has Ireland overperforming rather than Leinster underperforming. Leinster have a very average looking squad to me and they've been grinding out results against better teams which is something O'Connor deserves a bit of credit for.

Yes its cringeworthy at times but there is very little strike threat there,either in terms of ball carrying and genuine pace in the outside backs. I think O'Connor isn't a great coach and should take some of the blame for the uninspired performances but comparing him to Schmidt or Cheika is unrealistic given the relative resources he has.

Madigan was close to Sexton when Schmidt was coach everything has regressed under MOC. Maybe Sexton would have too?

Im correcting you on the O'Driscoll replacement. You said Reid/Madigan were the replacements. T'eo was brought in to replace him. As yet we dont really know how good he is as he has played one game.

MOC has the same resources as Schmidt and better than Cheika. Cheika had the following team that beat Toulouse away in '06.

15: Girvan Dempsey
14: Shane Horgan
13: Brian O'Driscoll CAPTAIN (Kieran Lewis, 75)
12: Gordon D'Arcy (Rob Kearney, 72)
11: Denis Hickie
10: Felipe Contepomi (Rob Kearney, 55-60 blood)
9: Guy Easterby

1: Reggie Corrigan (Ronan McCormack, 52)
2: Brian Blaney
3: Will Green
4: Bryce Williams
5: Malcolm O'Kelly
6: Cameron Jowitt (Eric Miller, 60)
7: Keith Gleeson
8: Jamie Heaslip

We have much better forwards now and the backs arent as good but our depth in the backs is better.

That team is incomparibly better than the one that lost to quins - even in the pack. O'Kelly and Corrigan have more caps between them than the whole tight 5 that played on Sunday, Gleeson was one of the best opensides around and that's arguably the best backline in Europe at the time.

nathan wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

nathan wrote:Are you not meant to givethe coach a season or two to settle in?

Yes you are but this isnt about settling in anymore as we keep going backwards.

But are the players not to blame for that too? for example, nothing the coach could do about a player throwing an intercept pass.

We have conceded at least 5 tries through interceptions this season,that to me is a coaching issue.There is something fundamentally wrong with the way we are set up to attack and teams are reading us easily and scoring cheap intercept tries.

I didn't think MOC was setting anything up in attack? Clearly the players are predictable and need someone to give them a slap to stop being idiots. We're used to it in England when teams can't even make the decision to put more players in the ruck to protect the scrum half until half time. Nice to know that the difference is a kiwi coach, rather than our players being especially moronic.

rodders wrote:That team is incomparibly better than the one that lost to quins - even in the pack. O'Kelly and Corrigan have more caps between them than the whole tight 5 that played on Sunday,  Gleeson was one of the best opensides around and that's arguably the best backline in Europe at the time.

Couldnt agree less. Corrigan was a very very average player, the Tom Court of his day. Gleeson was good but these days we have so much more strength in out back row. Id prefer to have Jordi Murphy, Sean O'Brien, Rhys Ruddock etc. than Niall Ronan, Gleeson and Jowett. Id take Millar though.

Malcolm O'Kelly was decent but to be honest I reckon Toner is actually a much better player. Towards the end of Mals career he was a liability because he was a knock-on machine. All in all we have far superior forwards these days. There is no comparison actually.

The cliche still holds true - forwards win matches, backs by how much.

The front row and probably the front five is Leinster's biggest problem. They aren't good enough.

Ross ain't getting any younger and the replacements with Moore out are looking a bit thin on the ground. Richardt Strauss is not back to the form he had a couple of years ago and Cronin is allowed to be sloppy. Healy has been missing for a while, even when not injured. McGrath has been a very able replacement, but doesn't have the long-term experience that counts for a lot, particularly in European matches.

Without a doubt, the gloss has gone off Leinster and their attacking play. Darcy, I suspect, had his swan song season last year. Fanning and Reid are makeweights. Kirchner is a 50/50 player - you just don't know which 50% you're going to get on a given day. Rob Kearney looked glum as three of his passes escaped clutching fingers of his supporting wingers and went into touch. One senses that he thought a Tommy Bowe or Simon Zebo would have got to them. Fitzgerald still looks lively and might be better used in the centre, but you never know whether he's going to be clutching some body part by the end of a match each week and disappear to the treatment room for another lengthy spell.

Reddan and Boss are getting to exit stage - fresh 9 blood is needed.

The news that Gopperth is likely heading to Wasps next season may just hasten the end for him in a less than stellar time with Leinster. He seems to fire at all the less important times, in the less important matches. Madigan steps in some of the time, but seems destined to occupy the 12 shirt for another while.

In short, Leinster don't look the least bit threatening these days, and haven't done for 18 months or more. Will Sexton's return at 10 next season restore their fortunes? He'll be 30 next July heading into the World Cup which is where most of his focus is going to be. Madigan is five years younger than him - who should Leinster be looking to develop for the longer term?

I don't believe they'll get the result they need next weekend unless Quins have a major implosion that scuttles their own ship. Wasps will be hungry to repeat their win over Castres who are now out of the comp for all intents and purposes.

Leinster look like they will exit the competition with scarcely a whimper. And Munster and Ulster not far behind them.

Don't know why, but I sense the waning love affair with the Heineken/European Cup seems to have finally ended for the Irish teams. There's none of the 'do or die' attitude that seemed to be present in the Irish teams in previous seasons. The emergence of the French powerhouses 2-3 seasons ago is where the rot set in. Now it just looks like the provinces are turning up but don't care enough about the outcome.

Maybe there'll be an Irish team in the quarters, maybe not. Will anyone notice, will anyone care?

Pot Hale wrote:The cliche still holds true - forwards win matches, backs by how much.

The front row and probably the front five is Leinster's biggest problem.  They aren't good enough.

Pot, the Leinster front row is the strongest front row they have ever had. We provide both the first choice and second choice loose and tight head props to the Ireland team:

Cian Healy, Jack McGrath, Martin Moore and Mike Ross.

We aslo provide the 2nd and 3rd choice hookers:

Sean Cronin and Ricardt Strauss

No idea how you can say the Leinster front row is its weakness when it is our strongest front row ever probably.

Pot Hale wrote:

Don't know why, but I sense the waning love affair with the Heineken/European Cup seems to have finally ended for the Irish teams.   There's none of the 'do or die' attitude that seemed to be present in the Irish teams in previous seasons. The emergence of the French powerhouses 2-3 seasons ago is where the rot set in.   Now it just looks like the provinces are turning up but don't care enough about the outcome.  

Maybe there'll be an Irish team in the quarters, maybe not.  Will anyone notice, will anyone care?

Dont know why you would expect Irish teams to be excited about the Anglo-French cup?

MOC has a lot to answer for, but so do the other coaches and also the players. Quite what Leinster were thinking when they appointed Leo Cullen as forwards coach I will never now - we all loved Leo as a player but he has zero experience as a coach and despite that is parachuted into one of the most important coaching jobs in Leinster. Loyalty to former players and all that is great, but Leo aspired to a career in coaching then he should have started at a lower level to learn the trade - just as Girvan Dempsey was appointed coach of the A's rather than being parachuted in as backs coach when he retired.

The loss of Jono Gibbes can't be overstated as Munster found to their cost last weekend. I don't know whether Gibbes just fancied a new challenge or has become p1ssed off at Leinster but I'd have opened the chequebook to keep him.

I know Foley went straight from the Munster team to forwards coach, but at that stage after McGahan and Penney, Munster were determined to appoint one of their own. After last week's dire display and the lack of organisation that appointment might come back to haunt them.

I still think that we'll pull something out of the bag on Saturday and beat Quins - but not by much but Wasps are going to stuff Castres for 5pt making the group into a three-horse race. After that in the new year hopefully have to hope Quins or Wasps do each other irreparable damage in round 5 and we stuff Castres for 5 points, leaving it a two-horse race in round 6 when Quins go to Castres and we go to Wasps (hopefully with them having nothing to play for).


It's always trotted out that the bookies rarely get the odds wrong, but how Leinster can still be 5th favourites at 9-1 - behind Toulon, Clermont, Northampton and Saracens - but well ahead of Leicester (25-1) and Harlequins (20-1) is hard to fathom.

nathan wrote:Does he have any experience other than being a kicking coach?

Did MoC?

GunsGerms wrote:

The Saint wrote:You could argue Leinster are missing crucial players which has effected their chances (Healy, SOB - injured. BOD - retired). They're doing well considering this. Munster on the other hand have POC, POM and Murray, and are looking like they have some good depth. I think they've overtaken Leinster. Don't panic, just swings and roundabouts...

I dont buy that to be honest. Leinster have always rotated heavily so we should be able to maintain standards. However, the miminum standard is very low. We are a point ahead of Connacht in the league FFS. Not good enough really.

Leinster have always rotated a bit, as in, manage their squad well. I only remember them doing that and being able to maintain high standards under Schmidt, but neither before or after him was there that strength in depth. Missing players does play a big role IMO, I wouldn't be too worried, Leinster rugby will sort itself out in a year or two.

The Saint wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

The Saint wrote:You could argue Leinster are missing crucial players which has effected their chances (Healy, SOB - injured. BOD - retired). They're doing well considering this. Munster on the other hand have POC, POM and Murray, and are looking like they have some good depth. I think they've overtaken Leinster. Don't panic, just swings and roundabouts...

I dont buy that to be honest. Leinster have always rotated heavily so we should be able to maintain standards. However, the miminum standard is very low. We are a point ahead of Connacht in the league FFS. Not good enough really.

Leinster have always rotated a bit, as in, manage their squad well. I only remember them doing that and being able to maintain high standards under Schmidt, but neither before or after him was there that strength in depth. Missing players does play a big role IMO, I wouldn't be too worried, Leinster rugby will sort itself out in a year or two.

Couldn't agree more,after all a year or two is how long MoC has left on his contract.

... about four months or so if Leinster lose at the weekend.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

The Saint wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

The Saint wrote:You could argue Leinster are missing crucial players which has effected their chances (Healy, SOB - injured. BOD - retired). They're doing well considering this. Munster on the other hand have POC, POM and Murray, and are looking like they have some good depth. I think they've overtaken Leinster. Don't panic, just swings and roundabouts...

I dont buy that to be honest. Leinster have always rotated heavily so we should be able to maintain standards. However, the miminum standard is very low. We are a point ahead of Connacht in the league FFS. Not good enough really.

Leinster have always rotated a bit, as in, manage their squad well. I only remember them doing that and being able to maintain high standards under Schmidt, but neither before or after him was there that strength in depth. Missing players does play a big role IMO, I wouldn't be too worried, Leinster rugby will sort itself out in a year or two.

Couldn't agree more,after all a year or two is how long MoC has left on his contract.

Who are you hoping to have as Leinster coach after MOC, Gatland?? Get the cheque book out, you'll need a big one.

Is Gatland thinking of returning to Club after the WC?  

Dragons would be a good restart for him. Afterall, it might be an inducement for the lads who don't want to come home to it to have a change of mind?

But if the Welsh coaching ticket IS retiring after the WC, tell Edwards we'll take him as forwards coach..... on his cheapest rental rates, as we're not as rich as we used to be when the cottonwool cryogenic chambers were operating at 100% capacity in the lovely old days of yore.

GunsGerms wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:The cliche still holds true - forwards win matches, backs by how much.

The front row and probably the front five is Leinster's biggest problem.  They aren't good enough.

Pot, the Leinster front row is the strongest front row they have ever had. We provide both the first choice and second choice loose and tight head props to the Ireland team:

Cian Healy, Jack McGrath, Martin Moore and Mike Ross.

We aslo provide the 2nd and 3rd choice hookers:

Sean Cronin and Ricardt Strauss

No idea how you can say the Leinster front row is its weakness when it is our strongest front row ever probably.

Well I actually said the "front row and probably the front five" is their biggest problem - and I mean right now. Ross got screwed at the weekend. Literally. And he will be again - and not just against Quins. If a team's TH is under pressure, then the whole team is put under pressure. We've seen this before when Ross had to leave early against England a couple of seasons ago. Right now, Ross is not fighting fit and ain't getting any younger. And the current front row replacements ain't good enough. I said "probably the front five" because the second row should be helping to sort out some of the front row's problems - are they? Kanye Douglas seem to change things a bit on his arrival, but I've yet to be convinced that he's a massive presence who should be one of the first names down on the team sheet. As I stated McGrath has done brilliantly in standing in for Healy. But he's only starting out and was second best for a fair amount of the game. Just because a player is picked for the Ireland doesn't necessarily make them the strongest Leinster have ever had. Van Der Merwe and Cookie were pretty handy too even though they weren't eligible to pull on a green jersey.

Yeah maybe Healy and Moore's return will help to stabilise the ship, but I'm not convinced.

The Saint wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

The Saint wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

The Saint wrote:You could argue Leinster are missing crucial players which has effected their chances (Healy, SOB - injured. BOD - retired). They're doing well considering this. Munster on the other hand have POC, POM and Murray, and are looking like they have some good depth. I think they've overtaken Leinster. Don't panic, just swings and roundabouts...

I dont buy that to be honest. Leinster have always rotated heavily so we should be able to maintain standards. However, the miminum standard is very low. We are a point ahead of Connacht in the league FFS. Not good enough really.

Leinster have always rotated a bit, as in, manage their squad well. I only remember them doing that and being able to maintain high standards under Schmidt, but neither before or after him was there that strength in depth. Missing players does play a big role IMO, I wouldn't be too worried, Leinster rugby will sort itself out in a year or two.

Couldn't agree more,after all a year or two is how long MoC has left on his contract.

Who are you hoping to have as Leinster coach after MOC, Gatland?? Get the cheque book out, you'll need a big one.

Why would I want to replace MoC with another coach who loves boshball.Girvan Dempsey would be my choice,he worked under Schmidt so hopefully he learnt from what he saw.

Girv? Really? Too inexperienced surely? Id prefer Jackman than Girv.

Jackman has signed with Grenoble til 2016,we can't wait that long.Girv would be a risk,I think we should have offered the job to Gibbes in the first place but I'd like to see someone who learnt from Schmidt take over.

We did two stints - actually three - on mostly unknown no-name coaches. And it worked twice. Now I think it's time to do a novelty trick again and try to entice an actual big name coach next time and see where that takes us. So - McKenzie is probably licking his wounds and not feeling all that hot about his whispering dogs on the street surroundings. Maybe he'd like to get back to club rugby somewhere a good bit away from Aussie players.

Leinster are blessed. Didn't deserve to win that.

We are shambolic.

Score?

14-13 Saint. Tight one.

Matt O'C has got the team performing as dysfunctional as it's been in a while. Weird selections and tactics are killing them.

Gawd that was grim. Poor old Matt, he should get the freedom of Dublin for having to work with that shower...Roman Poite should probably get it too....