Matt O'Connor Clock - tick tock

First topic message reminder :

Lets face it there is a big elephant in the Leinster locker room. Surely its time to face facts, we dont have the right coach in place. Leinster are going no where fast. They have regessed and are playing some really dire rugby. At this alarming rate of decline I wouldnt be surprised if Leinster failed to progress from their group and if they fail to finish the league ahead of Connacht this season.

The question is who would you prefer to coach Leinster, what are the options and how soon can they be put in place?

Personally I reckon almost anyone would be better. Some options:

Robbie Deans
Ewan McKensie
Bernard Jackman
Eddie O'Sullivan

Would rather we lost. MOC has been running the "a win is a win" excuse over the past few weeks. He needs a kick up the tush.

I never want Leinster to lose. And I wouldn't call their performances shambolic either. Just mediocre. Or grim as rodders said. No cutting edge, and the continued selection of Gopperth over Madigan makes no sense to me.

O'Connor seemed happy enough, but topping the group is out of our hands now. I think Quins will top the group, so if we can beat Wasps and Castres then an away quarter is likely. And then it's curtains because we aren't good enough to beat a good side on the road.

But Wasps are in the mix now. Can we beat them away from home with qualification possibly in their grasp?

You boys don't know you're born as a Dragons fan I would love for a season of mediocrity like yours, in top six of Guinness and joint top in your European group .

FR,

With regards the Wasps game they will have moved to Coventry by then (I think) and I would imagine the team will want to 'make the move' work so to speak at least do all they can by getting the on pitch stuff right so that in itself could be a big ask winning there.

Will Wasps get much support in Coventry?

That's ther big question, spoke to a few friends who are Wasps fans and they are going to give it a go but the club themselves are also doing a lot of promotion in the area free tickets etc so guys time will tell.

Someone earlier made an allusion to the idea that players should have the skill and intelligence to play what's in front of them.

From what I constantly see of Leinster, they are a perfect example of that notion in motion.  

They are Totally alone and making most of it up on a whim.  I can't see any coaching in operation - genuinely can't.  It's go out and do the best that you can, hoofing and puffing as individuals and then hopefully that might scrape through.  And it is just about scraping through, and I'd credit uncoached players for doing most of that themselves so far.

Like I keep saying, you can absolve Matt O'Connor from some blame because he came in as a rookie Head Coach, he wasn't familiar with the Leinster way of doing things, he wasn't familiar with Pro12 and he lost a few players that Schmidt used as ballast (Sexton, BOD, Cullen).

So he just happens to be very much the wrong kind of coach at the very wrong time who seems to have gone into meltdown mode in coaching terms and appears to be pretty much leaving it to the players to wing it as best they can.  
When you look at the kind of smart, well-drilled rugby that Quins were playing to almost coax a hit or a challenge and then have support there ready to recieve an offload out of trouble....... Leinster, for their part, were simply playing on memories of vague ideas that might have worked before in years gone by, but with all players thinking of their own individual memories - nothing looking coordinated or a common thought of action.

So it's pretty bad but I wouldn't blame O'Connor too much - he's just a guy out of his depth.

Cullen though has no excuses.  He knows what these games need, he knows you can't keep sucking on memories of a better coaching era - you have to do the homework, you have to do the correct drills - you have to work these players up to get a job done.   But I firmly believe the main issue is a frustrating 'Yawn' of apathy and therefore only casually coached nonsense emerges.

If Cullen wants a real future as a coach - he needs to let us see evidence of his presence as one.

FecklessRogue wrote:I never want Leinster to lose.

My reasoning is that things have to get worse before they get any better. We are a side full of internationals with an extremely strong academy system and some of the best facilities in Europe. Mediocre shouldn't be acceptable , but it is- MOC got awarded Phillips manager of the month last week. We need a serious reality check. An 11 point loss to Munster wasn't enough in October, an equally dreary and uninventive season last year didn't do it, so I think the only thing that'll snap Leinster out of accepting mediocrity is an embarrassing few losses.

Long term it's what we need. Otherwise we can expect no improvement for the next couple of seasons.

Leinster's inability to score from 5meters out is the most alarming thing about Leinster since MOC took over.

When was the last time the 3 provinces where so out of form?

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Leinster's inability to score from 5meters out is the most alarming thing about Leinster since MOC took over.

When was the last time the 3 provinces where so out of form?

At 23, I'm too young to remember. leinster have not always been a dominant force in euro rugby, but during their days with Nathan spooner or David holwell they were not world beaters, but were at least ambitious and exciting. Now we are happy to repeatedly sacrifice performances for results.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Leinster's inability to score from 5meters out is the most alarming thing about Leinster since MOC took over.

When was the last time the 3 provinces where so out of form?

True.  I guess on the one hand, you can't expect Irish Provinces to always have things their own way.  Each pool in ERCC has its own teams improving and fighting for recognition in their own right.  And in Pro12, the same could be said.
So some of Irish Provincial struggling is down to other sides improving.

But some of it is............ it's very hard to understand.  I don't know what's happening but I have a feeling it's all linked into some joined up thinking running through all sections of rugby now from Provincial to International, with this Nucifora in charge and Schmidt at the wheel with the International team.

Something isn't reading right in the efforts sustained by players in International and the pale efforts at Provincial.  It doesn't stack up in logical or form terms.  Example, again Leinster in a tight game refrained from any offloading to take the pressure off themselves and offer something sharper for the opposition to think about.  No, they plodded through a tight gaime almost resisting the urge to even attempt something different.  I just don't think you approach games like that against Quins, with so much riding on it and keep to such a rigid limited gameplan.  So I don't know what's going on but often times I sense a bit of a rat.

I think it could also be the coaching aswell Fly. Munster gave 'jobs for the boys' so to speak and Leinster and Ulster have not replaced previous coaches.

Tough times ahead for the Provinces they all may go out at the group stage.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I think it could also be the coaching aswell Fly. Munster gave 'jobs for the boys' so to speak and Leinster and Ulster have not replaced previous coaches.

Tough times ahead for the Provinces they all may go out at the group stage.

Yeah. But I'm saying I think there has to creativity there somewhere. It's got to be a factor both in Provincial and/or Ireland training. But Ireland and now Leinster almost refuse point-blank (even at the expense of a loss) to act creatively. It seems to be a version of rugby by numbers (ancient ones!) I think there is a degree of supression involved. I hope there is. I think we might be seeing the turn around now where player's loyalties in Ireland are more in tune with Ireland now than Provincial.
We/media often accused Provincial players of holding something back when playing International. Maybe it's now the other way round. 2015 is a big year and a small pool of players. Pacing will be required.

Coaching upheavals in all 3 provinces have not gone as well as hoped.

Also the foreign players are a much lower quality than in the past, plus the talent in general seems more spread over the four teams rather than mostly concentrated in one all conquering super team. The big three have definitely gone backwards, put at least the rise of Connacht under Pat Lam can cheer us up.

Four competitive provinces getting knocked out earlier is probably a bit better for Joe Schmidts Irish team than one or two provinces going all the way to the punishing end in Europe. Especially in a RWC year. But Fly, I don't think there is any deliberate strategy at play there. That would make Schmidt an evil genius and iron dictator of epic proportions.

Maybe you could argue that the big players have been there and done that in Europe and in their minds are more interested in international success, more like the Welsh. But at the moment I don't think any of the provinces would be close to Toulon or Clermont even if they played to their full potential.

FecklessRogue wrote: But Fly, I don't think there is any deliberate strategy at play there. That would make Schmidt an evil genius and iron dictator of epic proportions.

We are not being as creative as WE CAN be, Feckless.  I'd put my house on that thought.  Therefore the only question for me is why?  

Some say it's to cut down on mistakes...to keep everything solid, to cut down on the possible intercepts, etc etc.  Well, coming pretty damn close to losing time and time again is a very fine degree of mistake minimising!!! I wouldn't play that mistake-minimalising game too often if I was a coach. I'ts bordering on a self-defeating philosophy.

I'm not buying it either as any side could use those excuses to cut back to the basic elements and win the way Ireland is currently winning.  Schmidt is not a genius no...but he's been pretty clear in his thoughts on rugby.  You have to keep thinking what the opponent thinks you're thinking.  That kind of Schmidt longthinking would suggests he's trying to project images of how Ireland play into the minds of opponents.

I say again - we CAN be more creative than we're currently showing - I fully believe that - O'Connor is a backs coach himself who coached it.  It's weird how Leinster are playing.  Weird. I can't understand it. They could make life so much easier for themselves, but they seem to reject the easy way.

Bloody good comeback of sorts from Munster. LBP? Well, better than nothing against a team that can't be beaten

If Clermont don't win it this year, they never will, They have made some really smart signings and have more than replaced players that have departed in recent times.

Thats something the provinces used to be able to do

And the have Jonno Gibbes.

FecklessRogue wrote:And the have Jonno Gibbes.

So....? All we need is for Denis O'Brien to make the man an offer he can't refuse to return. Guys - more creative thinking please instead of the defeatism. Now where is that lad's number. I used it a few times already to dig us out of a hole.

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:Where's Deccie at these days?

Director of Sport and Physical Activity at UCC.

Papers saying today that he maybe going to London Irish.

Declan Kidney is apparently the favourite for a head coaching job in the Aviva Premiership
Kidney would be a good appointment for London Irish.
Image: Dan Sheridan/INPHO

THE DISPOSED IRELAND head coaches of recent times haven’t exactly been given a chance to

http://www.thescore.ie/declan-kidney-london-irish-1833747-Dec2014/

SecretFly wrote:

FecklessRogue wrote:And the have Jonno Gibbes.

 

So....?  All we need is for Denis O'Brien to make the man an offer he can't refuse to return.   Guys - more creative thinking please instead of the defeatism.  Now where is that lad's number.  I used it a few times already to dig us out of a hole.

Why would Gibbs have left Leinster in the first place*? Its not as if he is head coach of Clermont.



*My opinion he might have seen the writing on the wall!

Sin é wrote:
Why would Gibbs have left Leinster in the first place*?

Money?

Its not as if he is head coach of Clermont.

Clermont can offer him more money than O'Connor probably gets for Head Coach anyway.  

But good idea Sin - invite him back as Head Coach  He gotta start someplace and Leinster seems to be the test ring for assistants that want to try their hand at it.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Leinster's inability to score from 5meters out is the most alarming thing about Leinster since MOC took over.

When was the last time the 3 provinces where so out of form?

I don't think they are out of form - they simply aren't good enough.

Inexperinced coaches and poor recruitment are on show in all the provinces (Connacht excepted) and this is against a backdrop of the English and French sides becoming much stronger. Physically Leinster, munster and Ulster have all be shown up in this competition as has the lack of depth vs the other top European sides.

The writing was on the wall in the last 2 seasons but now the dam has burst. If the IRFU (rightly) wants to focus its resources on the national squad and retaining the top Irish players at the expense of cutting back on marquee NIES and coaches then the provinces are going to pay a price and that is being seen this year.

That said with the budgets around in the top English and French sides we couldn't compete financially if we wanted to.

rodders wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Leinster's inability to score from 5meters out is the most alarming thing about Leinster since MOC took over.

When was the last time the 3 provinces where so out of form?

I don't think they are out of form - they simply aren't good enough.

Inexperinced coaches and poor recruitment are on show in all the provinces (Connacht excepted) and this is against a backdrop of the English and French sides becoming much stronger. Physically Leinster, munster and Ulster have all be shown up in this competition as has the lack of depth vs the other top European sides.

The writing was on the wall in the last 2 seasons but now the dam has burst. If the IRFU (rightly) wants to focus its resources on the national squad and retaining the top Irish players at the expense of cutting back on marquee NIES and coaches then the provinces are going to pay a price and that is being seen this year.

That said with the budgets around in the top English and French sides we couldn't compete financially if we wanted to.

Rodders you have been on the record numerous times pre Schmidt as saying Ireland's players arent good enough too but yet with a good coach Ireland have won a six nations and a Nov clean sweep. The problem is three of our provinces are rudderless at the moment.

Totally agree and it shows how good a coach Schmidt is to mitigate our creaking set piece, which struggled in the autumn, and win games. He has the national side well drilled and playing to their strengths in a way no other national side, bar the ABs are.

However don't forget that the teams at this level are bolstered by international talent and huge squads - its about money not player development in this tournament.

I think in the short term under Schmidt Ireland can really achieve some great things but conversly don't see any of the provinces being very competitive in this competition as things stand, maybe the odd QF or SF at best over the next few years - I don't see a contradiction there.

I remember too a time when Welsh players were virutally unknown to most of us (even we who operate in Pro12) until they actually came alive at International.
But the coach wasn't the one getting the credit back then - yes he had his Gatlandball (the original of the named species too might I add - wherever Warrenball came from I don't know - it's meaningless as an allusion)  - anyway, Gats got some credit but a lot of folks here said it was just that Welsh players didn't give a four X about Regional rugby and saved their true skillsets for International.

Now that Irish provinces are beginning to mimic Welsh Regions of the past in the underperforming territory, are we not going to attempt the trick of saying it's because with Schmidt at the helm, Irish players are saving their best for International now rather than Provincial.

If such is the case then perhaps Provincial coaches aren't so much to blame and perhaps the Irish players are only pretending to be pushed around at the breakdown due to lack of interest?

Only one scenario can be true.  We're either shyte and bluffing the International stuff (Schmidt is good but even he can't turn turnips into a box of chocolates repetitively) or we're not really as bad as the individuals appear to be in the last few weeks.

No fly whats happening is the IRFU are breaking its dewindling bank for guys like Heaslip, Sexton and co and therefore the kitty for non-indiginious reinforcements is not what it was.

I'd get slaughtered on some other threads for pointing out the lunacy of giving someone like Roger Wilson a 3 year deal or Munster being held to ranson by a guy who was playing in AIL 12 months ago but there you go. Some of the NIEs knocking around are water carrier quality compared to a few years ago.

Joe has more resources to pick from which is a positive but when Leinster can barely scape past a mid table English side at the aviva then we know we're in a new era club rugby wise.

But Rodders, the resources Joe is picking from is a good handful of the underperformers at Provincial level.  
The same guys who look magnetic and intense in an Ireland shirt are the same guys who are doing a lot of puffing, panting, back stepping, head scratching, lung sucking and see-sawing hopelessly (Kearney!! ) through Provincial.

These aren't different people.

I think Ireland is a pretty confused place this year/into next year.  A lot of expectation in certain areas, a lot of pressure applied behind the scenes to sustain key player form, a lot of frustration I'm sure with the Provincial coaches who must feel their plans are being dogged now by the more intense centralisation of International preparation that exists now with both Schmidt and Nucifora around.

I'm not too gloomy because I still think Schmidt's exacting standards are still only settling down - I mean moreso the behind the scenes stuff with Nucifora involved and the new Strength and Conditioning guy.  I think the ship is shuddering a little under the strain of all the new little details - and tempers and annoyances are probably high as a more business-like environment is created for Ireland inc (Province + International)

No, I'm not too gloomy because I think it a necessary disruption of a room before a complete tidy up.  I hope I'm right! - but only time will tell me.

You could argue all the Irish sides leaving European competition early is good for Joe Schmidt just this year, in a RWC year.

I think that's exactly how it will pan out.

Further question marks about player management arising. Kev Mclaughlin was brought in to cover a back row injury prior to the Harlequins game, but never played. It was confirmed earlier today that Rhys Ruddock has a broken arm.

When Ruddock went off at 63 mins it wasn't clear he was injured, it just looked like a routine sub. Looks as though they played Rhys without fully assessing him, or just played him because it was deemed a must win game for the team.

Its either desperately unlucky, or Leinster's backroom staff need to up their game. Marty Moore & SOB's injuries have already been suggested as the product of bad player management. We don't need any more of that.

kunu wrote:Further question marks about player management arising. Kev Mclaughlin was brought in to cover a back row injury prior to the Harlequins game, but never played. It was confirmed earlier today that Rhys Ruddock has a broken arm.

When Ruddock went off at 63 mins it wasn't clear he was injured, it just looked like a routine sub. Looks as though they played Rhys without fully assessing him, or just played him because it was deemed a must win game for the team.

Its either desperately unlucky, or Leinster's backroom staff need to up their game. Marty Moore & SOB's injuries have already been suggested as the product of bad player management. We don't need any more of that.

Also whats with all the secrecy around injuries and even player signings. We signed some SA prop on loan and not one word was said about it. You can't even rely on the team selection announcements anymore.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

kunu wrote:Further question marks about player management arising. Kev Mclaughlin was brought in to cover a back row injury prior to the Harlequins game, but never played. It was confirmed earlier today that Rhys Ruddock has a broken arm.

When Ruddock went off at 63 mins it wasn't clear he was injured, it just looked like a routine sub. Looks as though they played Rhys without fully assessing him, or just played him because it was deemed a must win game for the team.

Its either desperately unlucky, or Leinster's backroom staff need to up their game. Marty Moore & SOB's injuries have already been suggested as the product of bad player management. We don't need any more of that.

Also whats with all the secrecy around injuries and even player signings. We signed some SA prop on loan and not one word was said about it. You can't even rely on the team selection announcements anymore.

There is some genuine secrecy alright. I knew in advance that Ian Madigan was picked to start at 15 for Leinster's group game against Wasps. But MOC named Kearney on the team sheet, despite the fact he hadn't trained all week - then it was deemed a late withdrawal when Madigan started the game. Either MOC was trying to protect Madigan, and prevent wasps from targeting him - which is fair enough, but probably a bit sketchy as he was intentionally naming a player that he knew wasn't going to play, or MOC felt that there was a chance Kearney could play, which would be in line with Leinster's willingness to send out players in need of rest.

Playing silly games around selection and player availability sounds like a move straight out of the Richard Cockerill playbook. Product of a bad upbringing!

Yep...it is silly schit toying with names on a team sheet. If that's the little 'edges' you think you need to gain something from a game then you're already half way down the building having jumped 3 second earlier. There's no miracle going to save you.
How about just an effective few gameplans at the ready regardless of teamsheet? I think that might serve Leinster better, MOC.