Ospreys Vs Ulster Dan Lydiate to make his debut

First topic message reminder :

Well I am looking forward to this one, I will be going to the game as well, how do you reckon this one will go ? Do Ulster have any injury worries ?

The Welshmen have won their last seven PRO12 matches at Liberty Stadium since Munster were the visitors in February.

Ulster's last six Guinness PRO12 matches have all been won by the home side on the day whilst their only away win in any tournament since May came in Cardiff on 19th September - this is their only victory in Wales since October 2013.

Ospreys have beaten Ulster just once in their last six encounters: 16-12 in Belfast in February 2013. The Ulstermen have not been victorious in Swansea since September 2011.



http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/30502717

The teams have not been announced yet, but I would expect a good game of rugby here.

Venue: Liberty Stadium Date: Saturday, 20 December Kick-off: 17:15 GMT

Referee: Neil Paterson (SRU, 65th competition game)
Assistant Referees: Nigel Owens, Chris Williams (both WRU)
Citing Commissioner: John Charles (WRU)
TMO: Tim Hayes (WRU)

Its only after the Scarlets game that I really looked into the current injuries we have and realized just how bad they are. This crisis has flown under the radar a bit. Currently missing:

15 -
14 -
13 - Payne
12 - Olding/McCloskey
11 - Trimble
10 - Jackson
9 -
8 - Williams
7 - Henry
6 - Henderson
5 -
4 -
3 - Herbst
2 -
1 - Warwick (about even with Black as first choice)

From our first choice team.

Then you also bare in mind that Pienaar has only played a couple of times....I feel bad for Doak as this is an awful situation for a new coach to have to deal with in his first season. Our back row or reserve back row in this case is very weak, I can't see us doing anything at the breakdown other than losing it quite significantly.

Well Williams isn't first choice 8 - Wilson is
Warwick is available as you say and Olding could be available

Oh and Payne shouldn't be first choice 13 although he is.

So whilst you are implying we could be 9 short I make it 6 (Payne should be 15)

geoff998rugby wrote:Well Williams isn't first choice 8 - Wilson is
Warwick is available as you say and Olding could be available

Oh and Payne shouldn't be first choice 13 although he is.

So whilst you are implying we could be 9 short I make it 6 (Payne should be 15)

Well whether it was at 15 or 13 if Payne was available he'd be starting. I didn't realize Olding was in contention to be back, which is positive. Is Wilson first choice? It gets a bit muddled up because of other back row injuries, Williams started at 8 against the Scarlets at Ravenhill.

Wilson is definitely first choice 8.
Williams played for 2 reasons - Wilson has played a lot this year, but more importantly we needed a gain line breaker in the backrow.

If everyone was available our backrow would be Henderson, Wilson, Henry
In fact I dont think Williams would even make the bench because of the extra versatility Diack brings to the table

Of the 1st XV - we definitely missing Payne, Trimble, Jackson, Henry, Henderson and Herbst

Artful_Dodger wrote: Our back row or reserve back row in this case is very weak, I can't see us doing anything at the breakdown other than losing it quite significantly.

When you consider this it does make me feel sorry for Doak as he had no input into the composition of the squad. Humphreys left us with a back-row crisis waiting to happen and then disappeared.

I thought Marshall was first choice at centre?

It's pretty debatable, I would have Olding as first choice ahead of him. Its q pretty close call between those two and McCloskey

What is this topic about, is it a race to the bottom?, if it is I reckon we are a couple of lengths ahead due to the loose head situation.

McCloskey and Olding have been two of the highlights of this season at centre which shows the wealth we have there considering Marshall's abilities at 12. Tis mad I tells ya.
For me Olding is the most talented young player we've seen for a long time, McCloskey and Marshall are close behind.

For that matter McCloskey could nearly be filling in at 6 or 7, he's a lump of a lad. At times he and O'Connor are like twins.

The Saint wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

The Saint wrote:

wayne wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Thats not a bad side wayne, are both Morgan Allen and Dan Baker injured ?

Is Iuean Jones still on loan with you?

Yes BW, until after the 6N, and with the interview he gave Ospreys TV and comments by our coaches he could be signed long term next season, he must have done something badly wrong at the Blues for them to discard him so easily

He was discarded by us first. I never understood why, I always rated him. If Toby gets a DC then we would really need guys like Jones.

Saint,

I agree but did we let him go or did he want to go etc, I was of the understanding it was the latter, what with Taulupe there he was never really going to be 1st choice and at the time Copeland had announced he was leaving the Blues so maybe he thought here is his chance for 1st team rugby.

Unfortunately for him it didn't work out at the Blues for whatever reason, good he's down at the Os now but if Baker continues his form then Jones is likely to be a bench warmer there to.

You still need a good back-up though. And who knows, in time he could oust those who are first choice at No.8. That's two decent 8s that have slipped our nets and gone to Ospreys now.

Thats true but if he wanted to better himself and push for international honours maybe he felt he had to move.

wayne wrote:Our probable Team
15 Evans    1st
14 Walker  1st
13 Beck     1st or 2nd
12 Matavesi 1st
11 Dirksen 2nd or 3rd
10 Biggar  1st
 9 Webb   1st
 1 Thomas 5th
 2 Baldwin 1st
 3 Arhip     1st
 4 Bernardo 2nd or 3rd
 5 AWJ      1st
 6 King     1st or 2nd
 7 Tipuric  Ist
 8 Ardron  3rd or 4th
Replacements Parry, Thomas 6th choice, Suter 4th choice at best, Lydiate, Lewis, Roberts, Davies and could be Bishop or Grabham, so basically we are down in about 5 or 6 positions and are seriously compromised at loose head and very well could be at tight head, so Ulster losing their tighthead shouldn't be to much of a problem, this is a game that we really have to win after our recent losses and teams breathing down our knecks, there is an even bigger reason why we could lose this game, I will not be there, Grandaughters birthday and HAVE to go to that.  

That is our team and subs, with Bishop on the bench, this is the strongest we can put out at the moment, hope it is strong enough

Some great rugby from the Ospreys so far

They'll be moaning about that one later. This is a bit of a farce now with the TMO back again.

Shambolic stuff, the right decision made but the officials have made themselves look rather stupid.

Lol, that was a few strange phases of decision making. The officials should have made their mind up sooner. Humphs is having a pretty bad game.

Comedy gold at the Liberty

Was that Nigel Owens' stamp on the game?

Embarrassing stuff there, but thankfully the right call was made.

Yeah it was the right call but talk about a bunch of clowns.

Pienaar off, that won't help us any.

Pete330v2 wrote:Yeah it was the right call but talk about a bunch of clowns.

Pienaar off, that won't help us any.

It certainly won't. If Best goes off you guys are doomed.

Last action of the 1st half really killed all the O's enthusiasm, they are now kicking everything away!

Right decision from the TMO - the ball came off Walker's head, therefore not a knock-on.

From what I seen; Walker tried to offload, Ludike hit it back into Walker's head, Tips passed back inside and it was a legit try.

IanBru wrote:Right decision from the TMO - the ball came off Walker's head, therefore not a knock-on.

I thought so too. I wish the commentators wouldn't be so blind.

Jesus!!!

Can Patterson not officiate at all, now asking Ulster players where try was scored against them.

At least he's having no effect on the score, Ulster are doing all that for the O's. 'Here you go lads we'll kick you the ball and you run at us, something you are really good at but our coach has instructed us to just kick it to you.'

Great game plan Doaky

Ospreys are executing their own game plan very well by the looks of it, it's been an efficient display. Ulster's forward are doing some good work but the 2nd choice half-backs are very poor, Marshall used to be a much better No.9 in previous seasons. Ospreys half-backs are running show as they have all season - shut them down and they don't have much else.

Aaaaaaaand there's the bonus point try, all too easy for the O's who are looking inspired against one of the worst Ulster displays I've seen in recent times.

Reckless challenge from Bowe there IMO, and should have been a penalty. The 'in the air' area needs reviewing.

Don't remember the last time I saw Ulster concede 4 at home.

The Ulster pack has been well up for it in the 2nd half, Ospreys forwards seem to have taken their foot off the gas and that must surely be a concern.

Thats a great driving maul, fair play.

If only it wasn't for that pesky... every other part of rugby we'd be doing alright tonight.

The Saint wrote:The Ulster pack has been well up for it in the 2nd half, Ospreys forwards seem to have taken their foot off the gas and that must surely be a concern.

The O's pack is clearly their weakness and i think they will struggle a lot against the strong Scarlets' pack.

George Carlin wrote:Don't remember the last time I saw Ulster concede 4 at home.

You can keep searching your memory, as this game is in Swansea.

Notch wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Don't remember the last time I saw Ulster concede 4 at home.

You can keep searching your memory, as this game is in Swansea.

Don't Ulster have such a great record in Swansea? It's like they are playing at home :P

The Saint wrote:Reckless challenge from Bowe there IMO, and should have been a penalty. The 'in the air' area needs reviewing.

You're nothing if you're not consistent in the shear amount of BS you spout

Pete330v2 wrote:

The Saint wrote:Reckless challenge from Bowe there IMO, and should have been a penalty. The 'in the air' area needs reviewing.

You're nothing if you're not consistent in the shear amount of BS you spout

Snore. I mentioned this area in the Wales vs SA game actually, because I felt both SA challenges in the air were reckless and not really contesting for the ball; a bit like Bowe's challenge here. It's an area that needs reviewing because it can lead to serious injury. You should know it's a grey area given Payne's red card in a previous European game.

Notch wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Don't remember the last time I saw Ulster concede 4 at home.

You can keep searching your memory, as this game is in Swansea.

Ouch. A hit. A palpable hit.

Aye. But be assured if it wasn't for the atrociousness of this Ulster dipslay it would have come with a complimentary smiley to take the edge off!

Got to hand it to the Opsreys for their performance. Well done Ospreys.

The Saint wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

The Saint wrote:Reckless challenge from Bowe there IMO, and should have been a penalty. The 'in the air' area needs reviewing.

You're nothing if you're not consistent in the shear amount of BS you spout

Snore. I mentioned this area in the Wales vs SA game actually, because I felt both SA challenges in the air were reckless and not really contesting for the ball; a bit like Bowe's challenge here. It's an area that needs reviewing because it can lead to serious injury. You should know it's a grey area given Payne's red card in a previous European game.

Yet more BS, wow

Pete330v2 wrote:

The Saint wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

The Saint wrote:Reckless challenge from Bowe there IMO, and should have been a penalty. The 'in the air' area needs reviewing.

You're nothing if you're not consistent in the shear amount of BS you spout

Snore. I mentioned this area in the Wales vs SA game actually, because I felt both SA challenges in the air were reckless and not really contesting for the ball; a bit like Bowe's challenge here. It's an area that needs reviewing because it can lead to serious injury. You should know it's a grey area given Payne's red card in a previous European game.

Yet more BS, wow

Get over yourself pete.

Did you enjoy the game?

Hope the rest of the games over the next few weeks are as good we are in for a good xmas and new year. If the Ospreys play near that form the Scarlets are going to get stuffed home and away unless their defence improves.

Well done to the Ospreys, fully deserved to win that.

The try bonus point was very questionable though as Paterson showed yet again why he is incapable at this level.

Ulster are in freefall and will be lucky to make the top 6.

The Great Aukster wrote:Well done to the Ospreys, fully deserved to win that.

The try bonus point was very questionable though as Paterson showed yet again why he is incapable at this level.

Ulster are in freefall and will be lucky to make the top 6.

Got to say that while Rhys Webbs try might be unconvincing, the performance was very confident.

That said Ulster played some good rugby especially in the last quarter. Tommy Bowe still looks in great shape.

Ospreys played well but not nearly as well as some are claiming because Ulster were beyond Poopie.

We are seeing the slow decline of a team with their only 2 top class backrowers injured (Henderson and Henry) and a coach not up to the job.

I sincerely hope I am wrong but I can see us getting worse before it gets better.

As to Pienaer I reckon he was brought back before he was ready because of the HC matches.
If he misses a number of games now Doak should be strung up !
As soon as we lost the first 2 games in the HC the league was our priority.

What makes it worse is idiots like Doak, McWhirter etc still say we are not out of the HC
What planet are they on - if any of our key players are in the team away to Toulon I will join the Doak out crowd

Interestingly Tyrone Howe talked at the teams organization disintegrating - you don't have be a genius to know what he was implying

geoff999rugby wrote:What makes it worse is idiots like Doak, McWhirter etc still say we are not out of the HC
What planet are they on - if any of our key players are in the team away to Toulon I will join the Doak out crowd

You'd have to say that players need rested in Round 5. Not in Round 6- losing at home to an English side is not a notion that should ever be entertained regardless of qualification but Round 5 is about resting guys who need rested and giving other guys experience of that magnitude of game.

But Doak out is kind of a stupid crowd to join because he will be basically out even if we win every game from now to summer once Kiss comes in. He'll still be called Head Coach but will be Assistant Coach in all but name. I've seen people talk about sacking him online, not this forum, and you just think... what planet are these people on that they think that anyone better is going to want to come into Ulster Rugby as a caretaker coach to replace a caretaker coach. Doak out... and Kieran Campbell in? Allen Clarke? All our problems will be solved then alright.

I'm quite frustrated with the usual knee-jerk crowd that comes out when Ulster aren't doing well because its a series of knee-jerk decisions that got us here in the first place. We may indeed need to get worse to get better but it's pretty obvious that more disruption isn't the answer and the only thing that will work is patience from everyone including fans and hard work from coaches and players. And hope that we have got the long-term coaching structure right and that Kiss is the right man will be given a free hand.

I don't see us possibly finishing outside the top 6 in all honesty and I think the reaction to a poor run of form over just a month or two is pretty hysterical from some Ulster fans on various social media platforms and forums I read. I think if you look at our performances against Glasgow and Ospreys at home this team clearly has the ability to compete and beat anyone in the Pro12 at the moment and in the bad games we've had there have been moments where we have created really good scores and played good rugby. There are clearly issues atm with reacting to a few near-misses in Europe that would have kept us alive and the impact of that mentally, and the lack of leaders in the dressing room who can address that. The biggest problem of the last four years is still evident which is unnecessary errors and sloppy mistakes, and thats where a top coach would have made the difference for us. We also need a bit of luck with injuries and our depth has been shown up, but the squad composition really is the responsibility of the guy who swanned off to England over the summer not the coaches. I don't think Doaks predecessors would have been doing better with this squad, you yourself have alluded to the likes of Muller making previous coaches look better than they were.

Anyway its a far cry from our actual worst seasons and I would still say the standards now are still higher than almost every year of professionalism in Ulster- I think that that isn't saying much as we have been chronic under performers, but to read the reactions online you'd think we were Treviso.

I think people have been a bit spoilt or have come to expect success permanently and easily, and while we haven't played to our potential over the last month and confidence looks low the team is still very much alive in the Pro12 title race. The doom-mongering is just hard to take seriously.

What a very good performance, shouldn't have allowed them back into the game, need to be more ruthless, is there a worse combination for a referee being Irish born and affiliated to the Scottish RU, he was absolutely useless, Owen had to school him through so many processes in that game it was totally embarrassing, there was one in the first half when Owen said about a crooked feed and Pratterson actually ignored him, the actual level of refereeing standards in the NH is pathetic.

Notch I agree re team at home to Leicester which is why I only said Round 5

Well not a knee jerk reaction from me - just a simply analysis of how he has performed as a coach.
I see nothing to suggest Doak is up to the job of being a backs coach at provincial level , Same goes for Clarke as a forward coach, and Longwell, and Campbell.
As I have posted before Ulster have underachieved over the past 15 years and in large part is because our coaching staff have not been good enough.
If we continue to appoint local lads who are not up to it it begins to look like jobs for the boys in an insular set up.  

When we had the chance of appointing someone who could make a positive difference another local lad, Humphreys, refused to give up control and we have suffered as a result.

I honestly think we are entering a dangerous cross roads where either the likes of Olding, Henderson, Gilroy, Marshall get the coaching they deserve or they might question whether Ulster is the best place to be to further there career.
It wasn't me but Tyrone Howe who questioned the organization of the team.
We probably are ok for the top 6 (although a defeat to Connacht would bring even that into question) but would 5th or 6th really be acceptable.
We had 10,500 Season Ticket holders this year, I confidentally predict we will not reach that level next year - that is the hard cash reality of failure

The decision to sign Ludik not a backrower was criminal (yes a Humphreys decision) - we needed to stand up to Payne and say you are 15 or nothing then we would not have needed a NIQ back. That  decision is costing us dearly now.

An awful lot is resting on Kiss because if it doesn't work out with him we wont attract big names in 2016 when 2 NIQ slots become available.

I have to disagree on Clarke. The maul and scrum has been much, much greater than the sum of its parts and the lineout is good too. Breakdown is questionable but we have a very average tight five now if you take out Henderson, Tuohy and Best and even when we've been missing those two second rows as sometimes Best we've been excellent at the set piece and maul, probably the best mauling side in the league and very much the best scrummaging side in the league with Herbst fit. I also disagree on Doak, I don't think he's anything special or long term Head Coach material but the structure in our play in attack is very good and we've seen scores come off a number of well-worked backs moves and strike moves. I also think tactically he's got it right a lot more often than wrong.

Our problem is that they aren't leadership material, they aren't able to inspire or cajole or give players confidence to put in really great performances. I think they are both good technical coaches but lack the charisma and insight of really good head coaches. I think when you see players making basic errors, that comes down to a lack of concentration, or a lack of confidence. These are mental issues as opposed to questions of game plan or coaching and I think the leadership isn't there in the senior players or coaches.

Missed the game. How was Lydiate? Was he both anonymous and awesome in equal measure (the sign of a great player )???

We will have to disagree on Doak and Clarke - I dont rate either.

Our scrum is decent because Herbst is very good and Best excellent - not the coaching.
Best mauling side in the league - we are not even the best mauling side in Ireland.
As to Lineout we have had a handful of games where it has gone into complete melt down and not just because of the throwing.
I do not see the cohesion in our forward we had when Mueller was the (unofficial) coach.
As to offloading we are non existant.

Given our backs the return is poor.
We have a few pre set plays but once we get to 3rd phase or more we don't have a clue.

To my eyes we are watching a declining side poorly coached and urgent remedial action is required.
I suspect we will survive ok given Henderson and Jackson back soon but that will just mask some fundamental underlying problems.

Griff wrote:Missed the game. How was Lydiate? Was he both anonymous and awesome in equal measure (the sign of a great player )???

Griff, he came on early in the 2nd half, we took off Bernardo 2nd row, put King there he made a few yards with one carry, no lineouts were thrown to him, according to ESPN he made 4 tackles, one of which was one of his trademark hits and he missed one, although I didn't see it, to put a spanner in the works King took 2 lineouts he did carry I don't know how much ground he made, according to the same site he made 16 tackles and didn't miss any, his workrate is great for us. Tandy said after the game Dan wouldn't have it all his own way in playing for us, which I agree with.