How long will Hartley be banned for ?

Call me a cynic, but I think it'll be a month

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/video-dylan-hartley-sent-off-for-an-ugly-elbow-on-matt-smith-30852389.html

Scroll down the article for the video

Don't think it will be that long to be honest, would guess a couple of weeks

He's not got a good record, so it'll probably be harsher than the norm.

If t's upheld as a red, which it probably will, it'll be low entry I'd have thought. So 2 weeks. Might be decreased or increased by a week depending on whether he pleads guilty or not.

Very disappointed for Hartley - he just seems unable to keep it together for things like this.

Incidentally, I would think a lot more of Mallinder if he didn't come out with rubbish like this:

The nature of the game didn't justify a red card. I think Smith went down pretty easily, to be honest, which was disappointing.

Because it's really the fault of the bloke who got elbowed in the face.

Did it truly deserve a red card? I thought it may was a yellow card....Red?

Will Mat Smith get an oscar for (HIS GREAT DIVE?)....he did seem to milk it alott IMO.

Looks like a bit of a soft elbow. Mallinder may have a point as it reminds me of a Tom James red card for an apparent head butt on Azam - it's a bit different to this as they barely made contact and it seemed like James was intending to square up to him. Azam went down like he'd been shot, to see it on a rugby field is pathetic. I don't think Mallinder come out with much rubbish either as he acknowledged the situation firstly, and he didn't condone Hartley's actions.

It was disappointing. Dylan has got to keep his arms down, but he was being held and I don't know there was any malice in it. The nature of the game didn't justify a red card. I think Smith went down pretty easily, to be honest, which was disappointing.

It is a tough game. That 80 minutes of rugby was hard, physical, with some great tackles, but I don't think there was any malice in that. I think JP's initial reaction of the yellow card would have been the correct decision.

It's a tough game, and Dylan plays to the edge. You wouldn't change Dylan. He is competitive - It is a difficult one. I think he should have kept his arms down - we are not saying that what he did was right - but what I am probably saying is that the opposition made it a lot easier, and a yellow card was sufficient.

George Carlin wrote:Very disappointed for Hartley - he just seems unable to keep it together for things like this.

Incidentally, I would think a lot more of Mallinder if he didn't come out with rubbish like this:

The nature of the game didn't justify a red card. I think Smith went down pretty easily, to be honest, which was disappointing.

Because it's really the fault of the bloke who got elbowed in the face.

Of course it was Hartley's fault, but I do agree that Smith went down easily and somewhat theatrically, which I think is the point Mallinder is making. I agree with Mallinder on that point, but I also agree with you that it is a worrying trait of Hartley. I think he has to make it up to the rest of the boys today as they put in a hell of a shift with 14 men for the majority of the match.

I would like to see that at full speed. The slo-mo makes it look like a pretty vicious contact, but can be misleading.

Mallinder keeps coming out with jibes against Leicester - remember he defended Calum Clark against Rob Hawkins. If Cockerill did it back he would be pilloried

There is no place in rugby for condoning foul play. Is it really OK to elbow someone in the face? Malinder should simply say it is unacceptable and face up to the fact Hartley is a loose cannon who he can't control.

Hartley ought to be more concerned about whether he has put himself out of contention for the World Cup. His yellow card against South Africa will also count against him because, like both his reds against Leicester, it was a case of him being annoyed with what an an opposition player was doing, and reacting poorly to it.

Smith certainly collapsed theatrically - there was even a momentary delay between contact and going down - but Hartley couldn't have been more stupid. His own team mate is there holding him back but he still decided he needed to make a point by shrugging Smith off . Whether he actually intended to elbow the bloke or not is irrelevant, because as soon as he brought his arm up to head level, he was risking making dangerous contact.

It also doesn't help that he appears to have a clear view of where Smith is in that tussle, and isn't just flailing around blindly.

Hartley is a thug and a liability to whichever team select him, Saints or England.

Both teams can select other hookers who are as good and don't get in these situations.

So why do they select Hartley.

Maesteg....the irony is.. If he was Welsh he would be the best hooker in the world.

Hartley should not have reacted however the dive was an utter joke.

Habana set it off....but you know what.....

I really fear for rugby now

GeordieFalcon wrote:...the dive was an utter joke.

Habana set it off....but you know what.....

I really fear for rugby now

Has anyone been penalized for diving? I know Owens had a word with Habana but he didn't take any action.

On the other hand, Smith might well be wondering whether Hartley's elbow would have been picked up if he hadn't dropped like he'd been shot.

Diving or play-acting will usually be a lesser offence than than any foul play but until referees start reversing penalties, or issuing cards, then the incentive to continue such behaviour will always be there.

Hartley should have been a South African, only they do stupid things like that

GeordieFalcon wrote:Maesteg....the irony is.. If he was Welsh he would be the best hooker in the world.

Hartley should not have reacted however the dive was an utter joke.

Habana set it off....but you know what.....

I really fear for rugby now

That's not irony Geordie that's you making an assumption.


I do not rate thuggish players no matter where they are from. Hartley has had too many chances to prove me wrong.

A short ban. It is a pity that they cannot ban Smith for bad acting!

maestegmafia wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Maesteg....the irony is.. If he was Welsh he would be the best hooker in the world.

Hartley should not have reacted however the dive was an utter joke.

Habana set it off....but you know what.....

I really fear for rugby now

That's not irony Geordie that's you making an assumption.


I do not rate thuggish players no matter where they are from. Hartley has had too many chances to prove me wrong.

GF,

Not the case at all but if you have seen some of the vitriol Liam Williams has been getting for his poor discipline of late you can understand how we feel.

Hartley is IMO a class player but seems to becoming a liability, his past record may well go against him this time and there does come a time when coaches have to say enough is enough.

Players with the thugish mentality of Hartley have no place in sport.

I'm a bit of an extremist. In the bigger scheme of things, Smith - for diving - and Mallinder - for whining - are worse culprits than Hartley. I support the game of rugby, played by men (and women of course!), not effing wendyball.

Rugby Fan wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:...the dive was an utter joke.

Habana set it off....but you know what.....

I really fear for rugby now

Has anyone been penalized for diving? I know Owens had a word with Habana but he didn't take any action.

On the other hand, Smith might well be wondering whether Hartley's elbow would have been picked up if he hadn't dropped like he'd been shot.

Diving or play-acting will usually be a lesser offence than than any foul play but until referees start reversing penalties, or issuing cards, then the incentive to continue such behaviour will always be there.

One one hand Hartley has to know the referee (or in this case the TMO) will always have one eye on him and he gets less slack than anyone else.  He simply cannot continue to put himself in these situations and cannot make contact with anyone like that.

On the other hand that was a dive.  Full stop.  Not a cheap dive one like Habana, but good quality and well executed.  Even the Russian judge gave a good score.

OK first of all, apologies shouldn't post on a belly full of speckled hens....my head is rather tender today.

Hartley does himself no favours. He is a top class hooker in my opinion one of the best in the world. However he is sometimes stupid and it does become a problem for the rest of the team.
He does have a bad name however. Bakkies is revered as a "hard man" despite some of his cheap shots but Hartley gets the "thug" title labeled at him.

However I think rugby needs to get hold of this diving malarkey by the scruff of the neck very quickly and make examples of people to stop it dead.
There is no place for it in our game.

How would you punish Hartley for this mate?
Would you give any ban at all, the dive being a mitigating factor?
Or throw the book at him?

Smith did make the most of it but an elbow to the face is a straight red and the correct decision

doctor_grey wrote:How would you punish Hartley for this mate?
Would you give any ban at all, the dive being a mitigating factor?  
Or throw the book at him?

It's not a mitigating factor though, it occurred after he elbowed him in the face which is a deserved red.

As LT has said on another thread. The RFU has instructed refs to access the damage of the impact before passing judgement. After Blair Cowan got away with a punch in Gibson because Gibson remained upright. As that's the RFU stance you won't see many players putting a brave face on if they are struck.

Hartley is guilty of an elbow to the face of another player. What happens after that should not matter. Only provocation before hand should be considered.

On 1st view didnt think it was a pen then at full speed replay it looks to be Hartley shrugging him off and slow mo a blatent elbow. TBH I thought the ref was right and tv official harsh. His rep cost him again. I reaaly wouldnt want to see him dropped for England as hes up there with the best.

Agree completely. Slow motion it looks awful. Real time you see the actual speed of the elbow and its pretty slow

How anyone can say that did not deserve a red card is beyond me

I don't see a dive. I don't see a player trying to shrug off another.

Smith is barely touching DH when he hits him full pelt on the nose. I think most people would flinch at such a blow.

MrsP wrote:I don't see a dive. I don't see a player trying to shrug off another.

Smith is barely touching DH when he hits him full pelt on the nose. I think most people would flinch at such a blow.

I've been head butted full in the face. Nose poring with blood, etc (not broken thankfully). I didn't fall to the floor clutching my face. I don't believe that is instinctive. I believe Cockerill has told his players that if they get hit they should go down (in response to previous issues already mentioned).

Also, there is no way that was full pelt to the nose. Have you see it in real time or just super slo-mo?

Feeling a bit more understanding with Scarlets fans now

Well I had one of my kids miss time a jump into my arms when they were very young and their head caught me square on the nose. I could hardly see for about 19 mins!

But clearly I'm just a girl!



Although labour was no walk in the park!

What can I say. I'm well 'ard.

Also, that kind of happened to me when I was kid, except my mum moved and I cracked my head on the corner of a wall. i still guilt trip her over it now 30 years later.

I thought Hartley was a bit unlucky in that he connected very well with his elbow, just below Smith's nose.  May not have been wholly intentional to hit him just there, but the effect was quite dramatic.  Sort of border-line, I would have said 65/35 for a red card.  Pleased the reference did not chicken out.  Having said that I hope the powers that be will not be too hard on Hartley as it was not the more violent action I have seen.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Maesteg....the irony is.. If he was Welsh he would be the best hooker in the world.

Hartley should not have reacted however the dive was an utter joke.

Habana set it off....but you know what.....

I really fear for rugby now

That's not irony Geordie that's you making an assumption.


I do not rate thuggish players no matter where they are from. Hartley has had too many chances to prove me wrong.

GF,

Not the case at all but if you have seen some of the vitriol Liam Williams has been getting for his poor discipline of late you can understand how we feel.

Hartley is IMO a class player but seems to becoming a liability, his past record may well go against him this time and there does come a time when coaches have to say enough is enough.

In fairness, Liam doesn't really help himself.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-30568658

Hammer, I doubt in the split second of the blow Smith had chance to think of dropping to the ground. I've been in both situations where I've been head butted and stayed up right and also been caught by the edge of a boot and suddenly found myself on my backside.

Whether Smith decided to stay down after he found himself there only he knows.

The thing to remember is Hartley's elbow was travelling vertically, it caught Smith under the nose, yet he went backwards like he had been elbowed horizontally. You cannot generate much force that way, if he had been elbowed hard just there he would not have gotten up very quickly and his lip would have looked like a red balloon.

Hartley is a class ONE idiot, but Smith went looking for the card and in my opinion should receive a retroactive siting for bring the game into disrepute

nathan wrote:

In fairness, Liam doesn't really help himself.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-30568658

Then maybe Tagikabau should also apologise for his sexist costume unless I'm missing something? Oh yeah, it's the hate-LW brigade. It's a daft costume but not an act of racism. Nobody said that about Robert Downey Jr in Tropic Thunder...

Which direction should he have fallen then?

Up?

The Saint wrote:

nathan wrote:

In fairness, Liam doesn't really help himself.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-30568658

Then maybe Tagikabau should also apologise for his sexist costume unless I'm missing something? Oh yeah, it's the hate-LW brigade. It's a daft costume but not an act of racism. Nobody said that about Robert Downey Jr in Tropic Thunder...

Bearing in mind the flak the ulster boys got a few months ago, LW has to be pretty dim to do the same thin,

As to Downey Jr, in a dreadful film, a white actor who plays a white actor who blacks up is mocked withinn the film. It also got slated in the press. So get your facts right maybe?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Maesteg....the irony is.. If he was Welsh he would be the best hooker in the world.

Hartley should not have reacted however the dive was an utter joke.

Habana set it off....but you know what.....

I really fear for rugby now

What do you mean Habana set it off?

The Saint wrote:

nathan wrote:

In fairness, Liam doesn't really help himself.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-30568658

Then maybe Tagikabau should also apologise for his sexist costume unless I'm missing something? Oh yeah, it's the hate-LW brigade. It's a daft costume but not an act of racism. Nobody said that about Robert Downey Jr in Tropic Thunder...

Well that's ok then....

MrsP wrote:

Which direction should he have fallen then?

Up?

What Smith did or didn't do matters not. Hartley elbows him in the face - red card no debate necessary. There can be no sanction for "going down easily". If Smith bursts into tears and runs off calling for his mum, that's up to him! It would be different if there's no contact and he dives to the ground looking to fool the ref.

MrsP wrote:

Which direction should he have fallen then?

Up?

Well physics would say that he would move in the direction of the force that "hit" him and as nobody is contesting that Hartley's elbow was moving in a vertical direcion.............

Smith stopped, thought about it for a second and then went backwards before falling down. I know what conclusions I would draw from that. I am not trying to say Hartley wasn't a prize to$$er, just that Smith got a tickle on the underside of his nose and then thought it through first before making the most of it.

I agree with those who believe it was a red card.

You can debate whether Smith went down easily but Hartley shouldn't have hit him.

It's also a player whose had previous incidents of poor discipline.

4 weeks in total I think would be a fair ban - 2 for the incident itself and 2 for previous.

What I expect - 1 week as Hartley will probably get a very low ban for remorse,good conduct during the hearing,pleading guilty and mosty importantly not eating biscuits.....

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

MrsP wrote:

Which direction should he have fallen then?

Up?

Well physics would say that he would move in the direction of the force that "hit" him and as nobody is contesting that Hartley's elbow was moving in a vertical direcion.............

Smith stopped, thought about it for a second and then went backwards before falling down. I know what conclusions I would draw from that. I am not trying to say Hartley wasn't a prize to$$er, just that Smith got a tickle on the underside of his nose and then thought it through first before making the most of it.

Even in slow motion the fall looks virtually instantaneous - and Wilson is supporting Smith which could explain any delay.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

MrsP wrote:

Which direction should he have fallen then?

Up?

Well physics would say that he would move in the direction of the force that "hit" him and as nobody is contesting that Hartley's elbow was moving in a vertical direcion.............

Smith stopped, thought about it for a second and then went backwards before falling down. I know what conclusions I would draw from that. I am not trying to say Hartley wasn't a prize to$$er, just that Smith got a tickle on the underside of his nose and then thought it through first before making the most of it.

Well, I would contest a lot of that.

The moment of Hartley's elbow was not purely vertical.
Even if it was that was not the only force acting on Smith at the time. (Wilson is pushing him away too)
You don't seem to have accounted for the effect of hitting an object which is tethered to the body (ie the movement of the head on the neck).
Your assessment of the time between contact and the start of the fall.

In fact there is only one part of your analysis I can completely concur with!



I will let you guess which bit!

nathan wrote:

The Saint wrote:

nathan wrote:

In fairness, Liam doesn't really help himself.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-30568658

Then maybe Tagikabau should also apologise for his sexist costume unless I'm missing something? Oh yeah, it's the hate-LW brigade. It's a daft costume but not an act of racism. Nobody said that about Robert Downey Jr in Tropic Thunder...

Well that's ok then....

Yep, the anti Liam Williams brigade over at Show Racism The Red Card have really pulled the wool over everyone's eyes here.

They are notorious for posting anti Liam Williams comments on Internet rugby forums after all

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

MrsP wrote:

Which direction should he have fallen then?

Up?

Well physics would say that he would move in the direction of the force that "hit" him and as nobody is contesting that Hartley's elbow was moving in a vertical direcion.............

Smith stopped, thought about it for a second and then went backwards before falling down. I know what conclusions I would draw from that. I am not trying to say Hartley wasn't a prize to$$er, just that Smith got a tickle on the underside of his nose and then thought it through first before making the most of it.

Some tickle that was a forceful thrust and could have easily broken his nose.
Smith may well have been over reacting but Hartley has no excuse for, another, act of stupidity

Intersting dynamic between the ref and tmo though. Twice the ref concluded a swipe away and yellow with the tmo asking him to look again. Asked him for 1 last view in slow motion ref said no normal speed please and we got 2 more views in slow mo. Cant help but feel ref was spot on and was painted into a corner.