How do we tackle the problem of ISIS?

I don't post in the off topic section often, however I am a keen reader, especially when there is a topic of political relevance. However, often is the case that a discussion turns personal and the thread is locked and the section is removed temporarily. Its easier to let things get out of hand on an online forum, but often there is some really good, intellectual discussion that always then is spoiled as soon as someone posts the first insult. So please, for anyone getting involved in this discussion, and I apologise in advance to the mods who often have their work cut out, if the thread does take a turn for the worse, can we keep this a good, clean debate on the different ways in which the countries in West can approach the problem in the middle east currently. I'm intrigued as I've heard many views from friends in University, ranging from not really doing anything to increasing the bombing campaign currently ongoing.

No insults, just good discussion. If you don't agree with someone's view or deep down believe they're talking rubbish in your eyes, simply say "I disagree" then provide your point of view, rather than resorting to an insult, because as soon as you go down that route, your point becomes null and void.

Good debate. Won't be here to see it get banned, but I'll give my view quick.

First things first: for all their faults, and they have many, I can see ISIS' viewpoint. The reality is the Islam community prevalent at the time had no say in how their area was carved up following WWI. To add insult to injury, it was carved by a rather unseemly bunch of people, who to be fair were I suppose the best of an awful bunch. Their territory roughly reads like the old Ottoman Empire.

Anyway, I'm not sure there is a way to handle ISIS. Al-Qaeda, of which ISIS seems to be an off shoot, seems to grow a head whenever you cut another off. They seem to lose 80% of their upper echelons every few years, sometimes their leader, and they keep moving forward. You could bomb the entire area (ie increased bombing). But that probably leaves you with two inherent problems.

- You're just gonna develop a new generation of resentful jihadists.
- Seems to ignore the principle that no human life is fundamentally worth more than another.

I'm not really sure tbh. Short of proving that Allah doesn't exist in manner which cant be refuted on any level. Just seems like we're set for a Holy War. Every solution which doesn't equate to a modern genocide seems to be at best a temporary deterrent.

Get rid of professional priests. Reopen care in the community for mentally unsound people and encourage muslim families to report their kids by promising mental health treatment if they are reported first and prison if they are reported after. Thats for the ones from here - the ones over there need to die and die quick.

How do we tackle a problem like ISIS.

First tackle the problem that is USA.

They trained ISIS, they funded ISIS, they armed ISIS ok. I know the media would have everyone believe that ISIS sprung up completly independently but this is bollox. USA have their fingerprints all over this.

Remember when this un holy mess was all about Assad???

The US and UK were happy to side and aid the Syrian rebels yet Assad was calling them terrorists. US armed and trained them with the hope that they would overthrow Assad. A couple of years later ISIS is born.

Who was lying and who was telling the truth??? Assad said they were terrorists the US said they were freedom loving rebels.

The US has done this before. Nicoragua, Afghanistan and now Syria.

See ONETWO dusted off his tin-foil hat for Xmas.....

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:How do we tackle a problem like ISIS.

First tackle the problem that is USA..

Come and tackle us then !!!! ........But after the slap don't be begging us for money...

I don't sympathise with Isis and the majority of Muslims don't either..........REMEMBER THAT !!!

They scare me these people Mate.............

I love people who love......I don't value terrorist lives and I believe If waterboarding gets results on these people then do it because I don't care about them......Because they have got no humanity.................Do what you want to these people and If breeds more......Then nail them too...

Protect the innocent at all costs........Is my motto......and If there is to be collateral damage then better they suffer it than us.....

9/11 changed the rules and about time........Also changed the amount of gun money the IRA got from my home State when certain people realised Terrorism wasn't a romantic notion after all !!

Before Iraq George Bush was the right President at the right time..............Wouldn't have trusted Gore to go after the terrorists..

America isn't perfect but it is your friend.....If you come we promise we won't cut your head and we'll even allow you freedom of speech..

DON'T EVER FORGET WHO THE ENEMY IS !

The Anti American stuff is getting boring..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:How do we tackle a problem like ISIS.

First tackle the problem that is USA..

Come and tackle us then !!!! ........But after the slap don't be begging us for money...

I don't sympathise with Isis and the majority of Muslims don't either..........REMEMBER THAT !!!

They scare me these people Mate.............

I love people who love......I don't value terrorist lives and I believe If waterboarding gets results on these people then do it because I don't care about them......Because they have got no humanity.................Do what you want to these people and If breeds more......Then nail them too...

Protect the innocent at all costs........Is my motto......and If there is to be collateral damage then better they suffer it than us.....

9/11 changed the rules and about time........Also changed the amount of gun money  the IRA got from my home State when certain people realised Terrorism wasn't a romantic notion after all !!

Before Iraq George Bush was the right President at the right time..............Wouldn't have trusted Gore to go after the terrorists..

America isn't perfect but it is your friend.....If you come we promise we won't cut your head and we'll even allow you freedom of speech..

DON'T EVER FORGET WHO THE ENEMY IS !

The Anti American stuff is getting boring..

Its not anti American.

Its anti American policy.

You're view is one of continual war and death. That does not help your enemies or yourselves.

As for MY ENEMY? they are the evil of this world and they come from ALL walks of life.

9-11???? 2 sides to every story mate.

No there's really not to that OneTwo, that was a bunch of terrorists killing a bunch of innocents (Including kids)

Derbymanc wrote:No there's really not to that OneTwo, that was a bunch of terrorists killing a bunch of innocents (Including kids)

Yeah thats right....

and life is a GI-JOE movie

Don't upset the tin-foil hat brigade, Derby, for the sake of the whole forum, please.....

Ummmm no it's not although lately it is getting a lot like that. Leave the theories out though. Regardless of how any of us think we got here, we're at a point in time now and the question was how do you solve a problem like ISIS, not how do we prevent it in the first place.

I can't remember who it was but I watched a chat with a senior muslim figure a while back on Sky news (I think) and I thought he summed it up pretty well. There's not much we can do as we're dealing with cultural issues that none of us seem to understand (all the different tribes etc.) I personally think we should start to leave the issue whilst giving the opposers of ISIS the means to fight or try to get democratically involved.

It's a very messy situation to be sure and i'm not sure we'll see the end of it in our lifetime.

Just for you onetwo

What's the point, Derby...??

If you can't see 9/11 was an atrocity.............Then its fruitless trying to debate...

ONETWO there is a video on YOutube called......... Voices from the Tower..

You can get to hear a dad have to listen to his daughter's last moments... crying as she was stuck at the top beyond help and asking Daddy to help (Geez I couldn't cope with that bless him)...........Also listen to the Father calmly thanking his Mrs for being a great Wife and asking her to say goodbye to the kids for him as it was either a mile high jump or burning to death..........

These were people like me and you..............Who probably didn't even think about Islam.

I feel for the victims TRUSS but watching that video you suggest would still not answer the questions that still haunt this event.

If you are happy with the official explanation then great and I will respect you for it because I expect you to respect the many, many people who have been directly effected by the event who choose not to ignore the glaring holes missing in this picture.

Derbymanc wrote:Ummmm no it's not although lately it is getting a lot like that. Leave the theories out though. Regardless of how any of us think we got here, we're at a point in time now and the question was how do you solve a problem like ISIS, not how do we prevent it in the first place.

I can't remember who it was but I watched a chat with a senior muslim figure a while back on Sky news (I think) and I thought he summed it up pretty well. There's not much we can do as we're dealing with cultural issues that none of us seem to understand (all the different tribes etc.) I personally think we should start to leave the issue whilst giving the opposers of ISIS the means to fight or try to get democratically involved.

It's a very messy situation to be sure and i'm not sure we'll see the end of it in our lifetime.

Just for you onetwo

I can respect your side of seeing things derby but like Tony Blair said in the 90's ''tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime''

We can't imo opinion overlook the policy in that region today or the last 10 or so years because you can't have one without the other. You would not have ISIS had it not been for the illegal invasion of that Nation.

I think we can safely say that we're never going to agree on what happened so best if we leave that.

The problem we've got now is regardless of how it was caused or how it happened, the ISIS problem is now there. A lot of people need to sit down and try and come up with a solution to the problem it is going to take nations of all different types and cultures to sit and come up with that. I have to agree and say that bombing the area doesn't help too much and a different strategy is needed. I have no real idea what that could be nor how to actually implement it.

I'd be half tempted to say to try and politicize it, offer an amnesty to anyone NOT involved in the beheadings and try and work a solution like that. Unfortunately I think this is an issue that is going to keep going on and on and on.

Whats happening in Syria/Iraq has been happening in Mexico for years. I think this ISIS has been blown out of proportion by the media to serve a political agenda thats at play.

I will shock you derby when I say that no one is more happy about the birth of ISIS then the US and a friend of theirs. ISIS mean war for the next 10 20 years and war means money. ISIS are a very lucrative development for a war nation like the US who need enemies. When there are no more enemies ie USSR in the 80's then we simply go out and create one.

Another terrorist attack in France now.

Islamic tyranny is the greatest threat to Western civilisation today.

What can be done? Well I think it is obvious, but I would hate to be branded by a made-up word, or violate the forum rules which penalise rational debate, so I shall stay quiet.

Not officially confirmed as linked to Islamic terrorists, I believe.

True, but I did see a video on the Internet with one of the gunmen screaming "Allahu Akbar" at the top of his lungs, which pretty much confirmed it for me.

http://www.sudouest.fr/2015/01/07/la-video-de-l-attaque-contre-charlie-hebdo-qui-a-fait-11-morts-1788479-4697.php

I don't think it is obvious at all Duty, you can't tar all muslims with the same brush, the same way you can't blame all uneducated blacks for the gang troubles in America or say every white person is a racist.

There is no obvious solution just as there wasn't to the problems with the IRA and such. This issue needs a lot of countries with the aid of Islamic countries to come together and find a solution, not isolating people and making the next generation feel the same.

Twelve people were killed and four left critically wounded today when armed gunmen carried out a 'massacre' at the offices of a notoriously anti-Islamic satirical magazine in Paris.

Two masked men brandishing Kalashnikovs and rocket launchers burst into the Charlie Hebdo headquarters, opening fire on staff.

By midday, there were reports of up to 12 people dead and 10 wounded, four critically, including journalists, administrative staff, and police officers who attended the scene.

Pierre de Cossette, a broadcast journalist with Europe1 News, said: 'Several men in black cagoules were heard to shout "the Prophet has been avenged".'

I do not wish to tar all Muslims with the same brush. The vast majority of Muslims are peaceful, law-abiding citizens.

But I do think that as society becomes more progressive, so it must be that religion - all religion, not merely Islam - becomes increasingly marginalised.

Duty does seem to have rather big paintbrushes on him... Which to be honest, doesn't help the situation at all. If you're a Muslim and ISIS are screaming "Kill the West" at the top of their lungs, and you get idiotic stereotypes which claim you're basically a few steps from criminal on account of your religion, what do you think the weaker willed Muslims become?

kingraf wrote:Duty does seem to have rather big paintbrushes on him... Which to be honest, doesn't help the situation at all. If you're a Muslim and ISIS are screaming "Kill the West" at the top of their lungs, and you get idiotic stereotypes which claim you're basically a few steps from criminal on account of your religion, what do you think the weaker willed Muslims become?

Which idiotic stereotypes have I pandered to, may I ask?

You appear to have made that up completely.

Gotta say I completely disagree with that as well Duty. Religon should not be marginalised at all. People need re-educating in the fact that we all have to live together and what we believe should not be used as an excuse to treat people differently.

Marginilising muslims due to the actions of a few has done nothing but help the extremist as the younger more volatile members of their religon can be turned easier by stating how they're treated differently.


Note: To be fair duty it does sound like in the post a few bits above your going to state to treat all muslims as extremists.

Made what up? Learn to read. I said you tend to tar Muslims with the same brush. Then as a separate statement (the clue is the fact that I don't bring up your name, or your statement), I said making idiotic stereotypical statements doesn't help the situation. I didn't even come up with an example...

kingraf wrote:Made what up? Learn to read. I said you tend to tar Muslims with the same brush.

Exactly. You said that, and you have made it up.

I don't believe that. The vast majority of Muslims are peaceful and law-abiding. A slim minority are not.

How is that tarring Muslims with the same brush? Perhaps you should heed your own advice.

Shocking, shocking attack again today.......These terrorists are feral beasts.......

No doubt what happened today in France is America's fault..

Derbymanc wrote:Gotta say I completely disagree with that as well Duty. Religon should not be marginalised at all. People need re-educating in the fact that we all have to live together and what we believe should not be used as an excuse to treat people differently.

Marginilising muslims due to the actions of a few has done nothing but help the extremist as the younger more volatile members of their religon can be turned easier by stating how they're treated differently.


Note: To be fair duty it does sound like in the post a few bits above your going to state to treat all muslims as extremists.

Islamic tyranny = The actions of ISIS and other affiliated extremist groups. A minority, but incredibly dangerous, and a massive threat to Western Civilisation.
Moderate Islam = The overwhelming majority. Law abiding. Peaceful. But still not doing enough, I feel, to deride the actions of extremists.

Now as for religion in society, I see very few benefits that it brings, and I can see massive drawbacks. As society advances to greater enlightenment, religion will become more marginalised. It already has, in some respects, when you look at Britain being classed as a "post-Christian country".

Duty you've made very disparaging comments about Muslims and Islam in the past. You more than most on here. It's not even worth debating. You've yourself admitted to spouting casually racist statements in the past.

Calling for a religion to be marginalised is very much what happens... in dictatorships. Deciding for people what they can and can't believe is symptomatic of advanced crowd control. Why should legislation have to ability to decide ones lifestyle choices? All you're looking to create is more more extremists, which becomes the case when society forces people to choose between their beliefs and forced societal norms.

"What can be done? Well I think it is obvious, but I would hate to be branded by a made-up word, or violate the forum rules which penalise rational debate, so I shall stay quiet."

It's that quote up there that makes it sound bad Duty. No person regardless of beliefs should be treated different to their neighbour who has different beliefs.

Whilst Britain may be moving away from religion I don't think a lot of others are. I don't actually think there are many drawbacks to religion as long as tolerance is taught along with it. It's also the easy thing to blame everything off at the moment. If it wasn't religion it would be something else humanity would be arguing over.

kingraf wrote:Duty you've made very disparaging comments about Muslims and Islam in the past. You more than most on here. It's not even worth debating. You've yourself admitted to spouting casually racist statements in the past.

Calling for a religion to be marginalised is very much what happens... in dictatorships. Deciding for people what they can and can't believe is symptomatic of advanced crowd control. Why should legislation have to ability to decide ones lifestyle choices? All you're looking to create is more more extremists, which becomes the case when society forces people to choose between their beliefs and forced societal norms.

Yes I have made disparaging comments about Islam, I have no qualms to admitting that. But I do oppose the notion that I have done the same towards individual Muslims, or admitted making casually racist statements (what on earth would they be, may I have an example?).

I am not calling for a religion to be marginalised, I am calling for religion as a whole (Christianity, Islam, Judaism etc. all of them) to be marginalised with the role it has in society.

Derbymanc wrote:"What can be done? Well I think it is obvious, but I would hate to be branded by a made-up word, or violate the forum rules which penalise rational debate, so I shall stay quiet."

It's that quote up there that makes it sound bad Duty. No person regardless of beliefs should be treated different to their neighbour who has different beliefs.

Whilst Britain may be moving away from religion I don't think a lot of others are. I don't actually think there are many drawbacks to religion as long as tolerance is taught along with it. It's also the easy thing to blame everything off at the moment. If it wasn't religion it would be something else humanity would be arguing over.

The forum thread title is "How do we tackle the problem of ISIS?" and that is what I were referring to. Not moderate Muslims, merely ISIS and Islamic terrorism. The two are surely separate, after all.

And I have posted before about Islamic extremism, I believe, and was told to limit it, hence why I try to do so again.

kingraf wrote:Duty you've made very disparaging comments about Muslims and Islam in the past. You more than most on here. It's not even worth debating. You've yourself admitted to spouting casually racist statements in the past.

Calling for a religion to be marginalised is very much what happens... in dictatorships. Deciding for people what they can and can't believe is symptomatic of advanced crowd control. Why should legislation have to ability to decide ones lifestyle choices? All you're looking to create is more more extremists, which becomes the case when society forces people to choose between their beliefs and forced societal norms.

What's wrong with being critical/making disparaging comments about Islam?

Is it not a facet of modern democtratic society that we have sufficient freedom of speech to allow fair critique?

Fair enough Duty, didnt realise you'd been warned before. It just came across as you were tarring a whole people (Which I don't think you'd do intentionally.)

I apologise if it came across that way; that was, as you say, not my intention.

So why should Religion be marginalised? Because God doesn't exist? He/she/it may not, but that doesn't mean people aren't allowed to believe in one. All you do then is invariably replace dogma with more idiotic dogma. The reality is ISIS have arisen because western countries meddle in affairs that are none of their business. Why was the Ottoman empire carved up in world war 1? Were the Ottoman citizens consulted in this? Similarly why are Israel suddenly promised a homeland* slap bang in Ottoman territory? The miracle is that it's taken this long for the bottle to open.

*Homeland is a rather loose term, as European Jews aren't genetically particularly Jewish.

kingraf wrote:So why should Religion be marginalised? Because God doesn't exist? He/she/it may not, but that doesn't mean people aren't allowed to believe in one. All you do then is invariably replace dogma with more idiotic dogma. The reality is ISIS have arisen because western countries meddle in affairs that are none of their business. Why was the Ottoman empire carved up in world war 1? Were the Ottoman citizens consulted in this? Similarly why are Israel suddenly promised a homeland* slap bang in Ottoman territory?  The miracle is that it's taken this long for the bottle to open.

*Homeland is a rather loose term, as European Jews aren't genetically particularly Jewish.

What about these casually racist statements that I have supposedly made? May I have an example, or was it just a childish insult?

kingraf wrote:So why should Religion be marginalised? Because God doesn't exist? He/she/it may not, but that doesn't mean people aren't allowed to believe in one. All you do then is invariably replace dogma with more idiotic dogma. The reality is ISIS have arisen because western countries meddle in affairs that are none of their business. Why was the Ottoman empire carved up in world war 1? Were the Ottoman citizens consulted in this? Similarly why are Israel suddenly promised a homeland* slap bang in Ottoman territory?  The miracle is that it's taken this long for the bottle to open.

*Homeland is a rather loose term, as European Jews aren't genetically particularly Jewish.

Religion shouldn't be marginalised......Religion can be a positive thing.........

But I do find it amusing how a stupid, vile tasteless kid can get arrested for laughing about a teen suicide on twitter and yet radical clerics over here can spout anti-Western s**t as a call to arms and walk around free !!

I said you've admitted to spouting casually racist statements... I don't unfortunately copy and paste the links to such posts on my computer, much like I don't copy and paste Trussy posting up flaky crime stats from "Americans Against the Genocide of White South Africans", I make a mental note, and move on, because I expect one to be man enough to admit they've made such statements

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

kingraf wrote:So why should Religion be marginalised? Because God doesn't exist? He/she/it may not, but that doesn't mean people aren't allowed to believe in one. All you do then is invariably replace dogma with more idiotic dogma. The reality is ISIS have arisen because western countries meddle in affairs that are none of their business. Why was the Ottoman empire carved up in world war 1? Were the Ottoman citizens consulted in this? Similarly why are Israel suddenly promised a homeland* slap bang in Ottoman territory?  The miracle is that it's taken this long for the bottle to open.

*Homeland is a rather loose term, as European Jews aren't genetically particularly Jewish.

Religion shouldn't be marginalised......Religion can be a positive thing.........

But I do find it amusing how a stupid, vile tasteless kid can get arrested for laughing about a teen suicide on twitter and yet radical clerics over here can spout anti-Western s**t as a call to arms and walk around free !!

Twitter is a public forum... You wouldn't see the posts on the Off Topic section unless you're a registered member of the 606v2 and online.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

kingraf wrote:So why should Religion be marginalised? Because God doesn't exist? He/she/it may not, but that doesn't mean people aren't allowed to believe in one. All you do then is invariably replace dogma with more idiotic dogma. The reality is ISIS have arisen because western countries meddle in affairs that are none of their business. Why was the Ottoman empire carved up in world war 1? Were the Ottoman citizens consulted in this? Similarly why are Israel suddenly promised a homeland* slap bang in Ottoman territory?  The miracle is that it's taken this long for the bottle to open.

*Homeland is a rather loose term, as European Jews aren't genetically particularly Jewish.

Religion shouldn't be marginalised......Religion can be a positive thing.........

But I do find it amusing how a stupid, vile tasteless kid can get arrested for laughing about a teen suicide on twitter and yet radical clerics over here can spout anti-Western s**t as a call to arms and walk around free !!

Not sure they can TRUSS

many clerics who have been found guilty of inciting violence have gone to prison or deported.

kingraf wrote:I said you've admitted to spouting casually racist statements... I don't unfortunately copy and paste the links to such posts on my computer, much like I don't copy and paste Trussy posting up flaky  crime stats from "Americans Against the Genocide of White South Africans", I make a mental note, and move on, because I expect one to be man enough to admit they've made such statements

So it was a childish insult then, with no truth attached?

After all, you do not need to link to the post, you merely need to say what it was that I supposedly uttered.

Also, as you well know, the N & CA board has effectively disappeared, while the OT board as stated is all but invisible on the net so I can't bloody well Google your statement, Duty.

Well surely you can give me a gist of what I supposedly said?

kingraf wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

kingraf wrote:So why should Religion be marginalised? Because God doesn't exist? He/she/it may not, but that doesn't mean people aren't allowed to believe in one. All you do then is invariably replace dogma with more idiotic dogma. The reality is ISIS have arisen because western countries meddle in affairs that are none of their business. Why was the Ottoman empire carved up in world war 1? Were the Ottoman citizens consulted in this? Similarly why are Israel suddenly promised a homeland* slap bang in Ottoman territory?  The miracle is that it's taken this long for the bottle to open.

*Homeland is a rather loose term, as European Jews aren't genetically particularly Jewish.

Religion shouldn't be marginalised......Religion can be a positive thing.........

But I do find it amusing how a stupid, vile tasteless kid can get arrested for laughing about a teen suicide on twitter and yet radical clerics over here can spout anti-Western s**t as a call to arms and walk around free !!

Twitter is a public forum... You wouldn't see the posts on the Off Topic section unless you're a registered member of the 606v2 and online.

So ???????????

You are coming across a sympathiser Mate..............Low by any standards..

The reason why most of these psychos aren't arrested and deported or jailed is because the intelligence services need a starting point to work from. To determine funding recruitment etc. Only the most high profile Get arrested because the government has to be seen doing something and or thr intelligence services don't need them anymore or can't trap the Frak. This is why eejits who say stupid spiteful things get arrested...they're breaking the law and it's not in the public interest to leave em free. Although I disagree with them being punished by law...let em say stupid things only makes em look the imbeciles they are. With these hate preachers the government has a vital connection to isis they can exploit to prevent stuff like what happened in France this morning. Unpalatable as it is, on this particular issue I'd side with the government in leaving em free so the Frak who actually commit thr murders and bombings are caught. It might be resulting in Islamophobia but that's less important to me than some poor bastards life who got coffee in the wrong shop at the wrong time.

I said you've admitted to spouting casually racist statements... I don't unfortunately copy and paste the links to such posts on my computer, much like I don't copy and paste Trussy posting up flaky crime stats from "Americans Against the Genocide of White South Africans", I make a mental note, and move on, because I expect one to be man enough to admit they've made such statements

Don't know how that popped up again. Internet must be getting flaky.

Truss, how does explaining to you how you're more likely to get caught being an idiot on twitter than the OT board make come across as a sympathiser? The entire world can see that kids statement, about forty people can see anything written on here, the result isn't really all that surprising

ShahenshahG wrote:The reason why most of these psychos aren't arrested and deported or jailed is because the intelligence services need a starting point to work from. To determine funding recruitment etc. Only the most high profile Get arrested because the government has to be seen doing something and or thr intelligence services don't need them anymore or can't trap the Frak. This is why eejits who say stupid spiteful things get arrested...they're breaking the law and it's not in the public interest  to leave em free. Although I disagree with them being punished by law...let em say stupid things only makes em look the imbeciles they are. With these hate preachers the government has a vital connection to isis they can exploit to prevent stuff like what happened in France this morning. Unpalatable as it is, on this particular issue I'd side with the government in leaving em free so the Frak who actually commit thr murders and bombings are caught. It might be resulting in Islamophobia but that's less important to me than some poor bastards life who got coffee in the wrong shop at the wrong time.

Maybe some truth in that but not totally convinced.................You arrest them they become martyrs to the cause...