T4; Sydney

well there is hope now and life back in test cricket.
We drew T3 because of one act of postiivity on D5 of T1....by Kohli wanting to and nearly chasing down.
and that is what delayed Smith's declaration yesterday.

and Shastri said I don't care whether we go down 2-0 or 3-0........we will try to win....as defiant as one can get to Dhoni's ways......in the BCCI culture of gagged mouths.

India may ( and should) play 2 spinners.....throw Patel in, now that he has arrived and both spinners can bat a bit.

added cushion can come in the form of batsman WK Naman Ojha

so Patel for Rahul
Ojha for Dhoni
and if Bhuvi is fit then he is in for someone like shami

Happy New Year to you KP_f and all the cricket regs.

Only 3.5 hours to go here... and then only 6 more days until T4:S

It should have a different dynamic to the other ones so far. Saving the best for last, right?

Think Ojha is back in India already. He was called up as cover for Dhoni only for the first test. So it will be Saha taking over behind the stumps.
With MSD gone, I am not sure we can really go in with only 5 batsmen including Shikhar Dhawan, who has major technical issues, and Cheteshwar Pujara who hasn't been on top form. But if Rohit Sharma is the additional batting cover, might as well play Akshar, bat Ashwin at 6, Saha at 7, Patel at 8 an Bhuvneshwar at 9.
Shastri is a huge fan of Raina, and I think he's in with a good chance to be picked at 6 ahead of Rahul, who's nervous display should give Shikhar Dhawan one more opportunity.

Meanwhile Ashton Agar makes it to the Australian squad. Will they go in with 2 spinners?

msp83 wrote:Meanwhile Ashton Agar makes it to the Australian squad. Will they go in with 2 spinners?

Msp - I don't know if Sydney favours spinners. Unless it does and the current track looks especially receptive to spin, I would be very surprised if Australia went in with two spinners.

Their bowling approach of three speedsters and Lyon plus some back up from Watson now seems well established and highly effective. See no purpose in changing that. Possibly Agar has been included to show the youngster that he hasn't been forgotten by the selectors (no bad thing) or as a precaution if Lyon has a niggle. Certainly can't envisage Agar getting in ahead of a fit Lyon - that's been well documented on other recent threads.

guildfordbat wrote:

msp83 wrote:Meanwhile Ashton Agar makes it to the Australian squad. Will they go in with 2 spinners?

Msp - I don't know if Sydney favours spinners. Unless it does and the current track looks especially receptive to spin, I would be very surprised if Australia went in with two spinners.

Their bowling approach of three speedsters and Lyon plus some back up from Watson now seems well established and highly effective. See no purpose in changing that. Possibly Agar has been included to show the youngster that he hasn't been forgotten by the selectors (no bad thing) or as a precaution if Lyon has a niggle. Certainly can't envisage Agar getting in ahead of a fit Lyon - that's been well documented on other recent threads.

My thoughts too, Guildford.......

Won't be the worst option for India though, to go in with 5 bowlers including Ashwin and Akshar. The series is lost, and India despite the scoreline, showed fight in patches in all the 3 games. Its the beginning of a new era under a new captain. So in a way, its a good opportunity to give young Akshar an opening....... Perhaps they should have Rahul, despite that poor debut test, opening, and bring Patel for Dhawan with Kumar in for Shami.......

a happy new year to all members.
For Indian cricket.....the bad energies of a forgettable year are behind...
new year , new energy , new force.....lets see what it brings

msp83 wrote:Meanwhile Ashton Agar makes it to the Australian squad. Will they go in with 2 spinners?

Would be shocked if they did. Would you fancy going in to a Test Match with Johnson/Harris and just Watson as pace back up ? One (hardly unthinkable) injury away from a very overworked vital fast bowler...not worth the risk.

alfie wrote:

msp83 wrote:Meanwhile Ashton Agar makes it to the Australian squad. Will they go in with 2 spinners?

Would be shocked if they did.  Would you fancy going in to a Test Match with Johnson/Harris and just Watson as pace back up ?  One (hardly unthinkable) injury away from a very overworked vital fast bowler...not worth the risk.

the pace trio would be Johnson, Harris and Hazlewood.

Agar..if he plays would come in for either of Watson or Burn

Dan Brettig of cricinfo asks whether Agar is picked as 2nd spinner or all-rounder? An interesting one indeed if the 2nd option is the answer....... .

msp83 wrote:Dan Brettig of cricinfo asks whether Agar is picked as 2nd spinner or all-rounder? An interesting one indeed if the 2nd option is the answer....... .

It's certainly an idea. However, whilst the current attitude of the Australian selectors is more daring than mine, I suspect that for this Test they'll still consider him too short of being the finished all-rounder.

They have the series already in the bag, and since Shane Watson, closer to the end of his career, isn't on top form, and if the pitch is likely to turn, then it won't be a bad option and a bad time to experiment......

KP_fan wrote:

alfie wrote:

msp83 wrote:Meanwhile Ashton Agar makes it to the Australian squad. Will they go in with 2 spinners?

Would be shocked if they did.  Would you fancy going in to a Test Match with Johnson/Harris and just Watson as pace back up ?  One (hardly unthinkable) injury away from a very overworked vital fast bowler...not worth the risk.

the pace trio would be Johnson, Harris and Hazlewood.

Agar..if he plays would come in for either of Watson or Burn

An interesting idea...and one I confess I'd not considered. Possible, I suppose. But it would mean another new number three (Marsh ?) and presumably Haddin up to six after his runs in Melbourne...reckon even for a dead rubber they'd be a bit concerned about relying on the (very handy) tail scoring heavy runs again. Still you never know...

I remember seeing a feature on Sky where they discussed England put a lot of stock on recording which spinners put the most revs on the ball (Swann and Panesar were miles ahead IIRC) and they put a lot of stock in this. I guess Agar must have something going for him, because he hasn't looked special on what I've seen this BBL.

Agar doesn't put a lot of revs on the ball though, JD.

My gut feeling is that he has been heavily talked up by Justin Langer and perhaps Mark Waugh and the other selectors were encouraged to throw his name into the hat again - at the behest of JL. He's only taken 7 wickets @ 45 in Sheffield Shield matches this season and scored 130 runs @ 26 in 4 matches... hardly an outstanding performance to merit Test match selection. So it must be something else we all don't know about. I hope his call up is not solely based on some "x-factor".

Also worth considering: the SCG is not nearly the renowned spin-friendly wicket it once was; particularly in the 60s, 70s and 80s.

However, if we get the predicted hot spell in the coming days and Tom Parker leaves even a little grass on the top in the coming days... it will probably dry out and deteriorate very quickly... and thus favour spin bowling more.

It's probably more of a batsman's paradise if anything with the roped off boundaries and super fast outfield.

That's what I thought LD, but the way Brad Hogg was talking about him he reckoned he actually does get some decent revs and turn on the ball when he gets his wrist in the correct position. I don't know enough about the technicalities of spin bowling to comment, but he clearly has something about him to earn these chances. Just trying to rationalise what it is!

Yeah, Hogg does tend to exaggerate and talk things up. He's a serial pest on and off the field.

Divide everything he says by 4.

Kp_fan, you want to drop Rahul after ONE Test and carry that limited overs slogger AGAIN? Words fail me. The faith in Dhawan is just impossible to understand. HE IS NOT BLOODY TEST STANDARD FFS. The blood boils when everyone has him as an automatic choice.

ShankyCricket wrote:Kp_fan, you want to drop Rahul after ONE Test and carry that limited overs slogger AGAIN? Words fail me. The faith in Dhawan is just impossible to understand. HE IS NOT BLOODY TEST STANDARD FFS. The blood boils when everyone has him as an automatic choice.

i don't want to drop Rahul for good....he deserves a run.

if we play 5 batsman....the choice of the opener is between Rahul or Dhawan......in an already lean batting line-up.

and given Rahul's temperament its better to give him a run in home conditions in about 4 to 5 consecutive innings.

I thought you wanted to give Dhawan 2 tests to prove himself? He has already had 3. Why give him another?

BTW KP_Fan, what do you make of my "early judgement" on Dhawan not being Test class well before this started? Isn't this in the Ashwin category where I was proven right?

Hi there kp_ fan, what do you have to say about my 'early call' on Dhawan?

KP_fan wrote:

ShankyCricket wrote:Kpfan, I don't remember me ever being 'after Rahane' in tests. Yes, in ltd overs cricket, he is yet to convince me although I'd have in my WC side.
Vijay, yes, I got that horribly wrong
I don't think you can anyone blame anyone for not rating Ishant. He has finally started delivering consistently after over 50 Tests of sustained mediocrity. I think 90% of the country was 'after' him before the Eng and NZ tours.

Here again, I'm not 'after' Dhawan but his technique gives me next to no confidence. He is not as gifted as a Sehwag or a Warner to play that way and get away with it. Nor does he seem to be the type who has the temperament to 'graft'. I'd be happy to be proven wrong but he just doesn't seem to be a test opener to me. Still if there is one surface in Aus where he can do well, it is this. Its an absolute belter. If he can't get runs here, you might as well forget him at the Gabba.

I do also rememebr though that you made quite good and early calls on the futility of Ashwin as an overseas spinner and on raina as an overseas batsmen in any form

shanky I agree.....Dhwan is not going to cut it as a test opener........so your call was a good one.

if we play 5 bowlers:

the choice is to throw a nervous Rahul in and get nothing from him.....and jeopardize his long term potential

OR

throw Dhawan in and hope he gives a 20 or 30 and cushion Rahul for now and initiate him in next series

OR
Move Pujara or Rahane up to open and play someone else in at No.5 ( but who else do we have Raina and Rohit?) to bring in the middle order

devil's alternatives all...why ? because we brought Bhai's favourite Rohit and Raina for test slots

More than Rahul's returns, the way he got out in both innings, I doubt whether he's really ready for the big stage as yet. I really do have high hopes of him, but he just was a nervous wreck in that first test. Dhawan hasn't done much to deserve continued selection, but he at least has been scoring a few 20s and 30s. I too have major doubts about his test match temperament, but I am with KPF that Rahul might have to be initiated in home conditions where he might feel a bit easier.......

The last 3 Indian players to score a hundred on Test debut are Suresh Raina, Shikhar Dhawan and Rohit Sharma.

On the other hand, Ajinkya Rahane had a shocker on Test debut. Virat Kohli looked out of his depth on debut.

That is all I have to say.... 'D

By the way Ashwin did alright in the last test didn't he? Took 5 wickets and kept things quiet too.

Both Kohli and Rahane had a little bit of time out of the side before they came back in....... Kohli after the West Indies series, Rahane after his debut test.......

For a one off Test, I'd prefer Raina to Dhawan.

Logic? Well, both are cr@p but at least Raina's failures came 2-3 years ago and I'm giving this benefit of doubt on an assumption that he may have improved as opposed to Dhawan whose suckery is quite recent. He has shown improvement in his technique in ODIs. Give him this 1 test, let him fail so that Tracer Bullet doesn't give him chances in the subcontinent. The.worst thing would.be Dhawan scoring a meaningless 40 odd to stay in the side a bit longer and if Raina doesn't fail here, he too will be given chances in the subcontinent.

Ashwin is still averaging 50 in this series. Gee,.our expectations are low.

I'd rather invest time in Axar Patel and Karn Sharma instead of Srini Mama's tried and failed 'cement mafia' (Ashwin and Jadeja).

Very disappointing that Ishant Sharma has been appointed the Test vice captain instead of Rahane.

Ishant of all people!. The guy doesn't know to even work a batsman out for himself!. What a joke!.

The bowling averages of Ishant, Umesh, Aaron and Shami on Australian tracks in this series?

Karn Sharma isn't really test class. As for Akshar,he has potential, but he looks more like a limited overs prospect at the moment. Even for someone like Anil Kumble, it took years of experience to evolve into a good overseas bowler lets not forget.

As always, Ravindra Jadeja gets a lot of undeserved stick. Yes he doesn't run through lineups away from home. But he has always managed to keep the runs down and contain, it is just that our seamers have by and large been useless to make anything out of that. Who was the last Indian spinner to take an away 5for? And during our last overseas win, his lower order slogging and control with the ball played an important role.......
And I thought he would have made a serious difference on that Adelaide track had he played.......
We unfortunately don't have spinners in the class of Bedi-Chandra-Kumble at present, but lets not forget even those players weren't always able to run through sides in overseas conditions.
Spin is the least of our worries when playing away from home. Its the 3rd rate seam bowling and the collapse prone batting that have often been the letdown.

ShankyCricket wrote:Ashwin is still averaging 50 in this series. Gee,.our expectations are low.

I'd rather invest time in Axar Patel and Karn Sharma instead of Srini Mama's tried and failed 'cement mafia' (Ashwin and Jadeja).

CSK propaganda machine drills in our head......there are no alterntaives

shanky I agree without logic of bringing Raina in.

msp83 wrote:By the way Ashwin did alright in the last test didn't he? Took 5 wickets and kept things quiet too.

Msp - I kept an eye out for him in view of the varying comments on recent threads and, yes, pretty much go along with that. He did ok. A useful container rather than a great wicket taking threat. Doubt anyone would suggest otherwise. If he is going to play Tests, feel he best belongs as part of a 5 man bowling attack although unsure how feasible that would be.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia-v-india-2014-15/content/story/815615.html

I was going to mention something about all of this before the 2nd Test.

All this talk of testing/sledging... call it whatever you want... has got out of hand and is a cheap distraction as far as I am concerned.

I was quite surprised to hear Smith getting involved as the new captain. He shouldn't have said anything about the Indian team not being able to handle the pressure (so to speak) and touching on the idea of "cracks starting to appear amongst the Indian side".

Call me well-mannered but I find that sort of behaviour totally unnecessary and disrespectful.

As the renowned sledger McGrath said recently during a radio broadcast: "...when things are going relatively well (taking wickets, scoring runs) there is no need to say anything..." Maybe he was having a lend of us all? I think so.

I don't know if Lehmann or someone else is urging Smith to say these things. It's just comes across as very childish and rude.

Don't forget: the Indian team had their preparation for the series severely interrupted with the death of Phil Hughes.
They showed considerable decency and respect to go out of their way to attend the funeral.

I hope someone in the Australian set up thanked them properly for this and showed some genuine appreciation for their heart-felt concern.
This needed to be emphasised and stated publicly. (if it was and I missed it; then my apologies)

I just find it awkward that as soon as they get on the field - all this nastiness surfaces again. I know pride is at stake and they are competitive sportsmen... and that perhaps Kohli can be a emotional character... but he deserves a massive amount of credit for 1) his brilliant batting performances thus far and 2) having to also deal with recent tragedy - with impeccable respect and decency - along with the rest of Indian squad.

It seems the Australians have quickly forgotten this - which is a deep shame really.

Mitchell Johnson in doubt for this Test with hamstring soreness. He didn't travel to Sydney for the first practice session.
Starc and/or Siddle on standby to make an appearance again.

On onfield abuse, some of us are "so old fashioned" LD.
Doesn't matter Johnson/Clarke/Smith/Anderson/Kohli/Rohit Sharma, I just don't like this total nonsense. It adds nothing positive to the game, nothing whatsoever.
But unfortunately, we are in a minority, and not many would want to even listen.

If Johnson isn't a hundred percent, I doubt Australia will risk him, considering the series is already in the bag, and that the World Cup is so close.

As for Ashwin, Guildford, the idea of 5 bowlers is not a bad one. Ashwin can be used as an all-rounder and can easily bat 7, and at a stretch 6. However, there is no Mahendra Singh Dhoni to cover for that move. Perhaps they should consider Naman Ojha for the wicketkeeper role in the future, bat him at 6, Ashwin at 7, Jadeja, Akshar, Kumar and 1 more seamer in Indian conditions, and 2 seamers or even an all-rounder like Rishi Dhawan for the spinners in overseas conditions. And If Akshar continue to develop as an all-round cricketer and evolve into India's led spinner, then he can take up the role in the future.

msp83 wrote: Ashwin can be used as an all-rounder and can easily bat 7, and at a stretch 6. .

he is no more than a No 8 material with the bat in overseas conditions.
the problem with ASHWIN his bowling short of making him one of 4 bowlers
and batting short of making him the 5th bowler.

if really the 5th bolwer cum batsman they are looking for.......Jalaj Saxena and Rasool should be tried.
I am not sure whether at international level they will make the cut......but unless tried we cannot tell.

and we will figure out how good Patel is with the bat.....when we see him...with the ball he will do a fair job

Think Ashwin comes across at times as a number 8 because that's where he bats and the thought process would be on those lines. Think he is as good a batsman as Mahendra Singh Dhoni was in test cricket. Give him a sustained go at 7, pick Ojha as the wicketkeeper, and with 2 or 3 of Bhuvneshwar, Patel, Jadeja, and perhaps Dhawan in that lower order, it could be a solid enough lineup that has some depth in bowling as well.
Mumbai's Shardul Thakur is making some headlines this Ranji season. He's quick by Ranji standards, and can bat as well. J&K's Ram Dayal is another seamer who has been doing alright in domestic cricket with some batting abilities to add to it.
Perhaps some time in the not too distant future, may be they can be given a go.......

msp83 wrote:Think Ashwin comes across at times as a number 8 because that's where he bats and the thought process would be on those lines. Think he is as good a batsman as Mahendra Singh Dhoni was in test cricket. Give him a sustained go at 7, pick Ojha as the wicketkeeper, and with 2 or 3 of Bhuvneshwar, Patel, Jadeja, and perhaps Dhawan in that lower order, it could be a solid enough lineup that has some depth in bowling as well.

I agree with the principle .....Samson or Ojha type WK batsman...and then 2 spinners who can bat Ashwin/ Rasool/ Jalaj/ Patel/ Jadeja....and 3 seamers out of whom one is Bhuvi who can bat.....
gives a lot of useful batting from 6 thru 9.

Mumbai's Shardul Thakur is making some headlines this Ranji season. He's quick by Ranji standards, and can bat as well. J&K's Ram Dayal is another seamer who has been doing alright in domestic cricket with some batting abilities to add to it.
Perhaps some time in the not too distant future, may be they can be given a go.......

why have we dumped Ishwar Pandey without giving him a game ?

Thakur made some encouraging signs end of last season....going at 140+....he has to get a consistent full season under his belt and such scarce is our bowling talent and such high the injury rate of seamers that sooner than later he will get a break.

Rishi Dhwan is also running throuhg sides with the ball...admittedly in a weak group and seam friendly conditions....but he must be factored as one of the possible 5 bowlers we will play with an eye on bowler's batting capabilities

msp83 wrote:If Johnson isn't a hundred percent, I doubt Australia will risk him, considering the series is already in the bag, and that the World Cup is so close.

Agreed.

Ishwar Pandey is injured and has been out since the first round of Ranji. He does deserve an opportunity, though like most other seamers in India, he too has been good but not standout....... As for the seam bowling department, the one to really look forward to is Punjab's Sandeep Sharma, who is highly rated by many with his ability to swing the ball consistently. Sandeep has gained good experience at domestic level with 2 solid seasons under his belt. Not a lot to offer with the bat though he's better than the set of number 11s that we have at the moment. Sandeep has gone on record that he wants to increase his pace so that he can have an edge at the top level.

The problem with Sanju Samson is that he doesn't keep in the longer formats. He plays as a pure batsman for Kerala in the Ranji Trophy. Had a quiet start to the season before scoring 89 against Jharkhand last week.

msp83 wrote:On onfield abuse, some of us are "so old fashioned" LD.
Doesn't matter Johnson/Clarke/Smith/Anderson/Kohli/Rohit Sharma, I just don't like this total nonsense. It adds nothing positive to the game, nothing whatsoever.
But unfortunately, we are in a minority, and not many would want to even listen.

I suspect a lot of us are ''old fashioned'' in respect of this matter.

Whilst very few of us would want sledging (or as Loaded Dog says in his post, whatever it is called) removed from the game altogether (it can validly test a player's character as well as bringing humour and adding to the game's colour and history), it is important that the line not be overstepped. Overstepping the line may appear a rather woolly comment but it's something a good and experienced captain should know and be able to pro-actively recognise so as to prevent it either happening or at least getting out of control.

The circumstances prevailing at the time as to whether something is acceptable should always be a relevant factor. That undoubtedly includes India's dignified response to Phil Hughes' death.

The 5 bowler theory sounds good in principle but really doesn't work in practice unless you've got 5 world class batsmen, all in form. Thought that was rather evident in England. I'm not too sure Rishi Dhawan would necessarily be a bigger wicket taking threat on flat Test pitches than say, a.Stuart Binny, who turned out to be a failure.

Shardul is the one worth keeping an eye out for.

Still think we need 6 proper batsmen, 3 proper seamers and a proper spinner (not Ashwin).