T Youngs v Hartley v Webber?

Tom Youngs is clearly performing extremely well after the Bath game last weekend. I've never been a fan of his due to his wonky throwing at the lineout and his lack of power in the scrum. However his form in the loose is very hard to ignore right now.

Hartley on his day is good allround but never seems to really excel at anything. His discipline is woefully inadequate. Wales will want to wind him up in Cardiff but it won't work because they've tried it before even before the match with gatland's big gob. If he starts he will be on his best behaviour.

That leaves Webber. Another good allround player who carries very well and very good defensively. He seems to go about his work quietly and thoroughly with no mistakes. His attitude reminds me of other great players who don't make a song and dance but just focus and get on with the job.

It's Webber for me.

In my opinion Tom Youngs is not a hooker. If I was Hibbard or Owens I would be overjoyed if England went with Youngs over either of the other two. He would definitely be seen as a vulnerability in Englands pack. Hartley is the best of the three. A hooker should be that combative type. Look at the best players in that position...Fitzy, Moore, Britz etc. None of them are angels and you want them to have that kind of attitude. In the middle of the front row you need a kind of insanity to make you keep going back to it. For me it's Hartley every time and anyone who says he's a liability is wrong. Yes he gets carded occasionally but he's had his card this season. Won't be another one for a while now...

All outstanding hookers imo.
I think you summed it up well Glory. Lawes will be calling the line out & the club combo with Hartley ensures an almost perfect line out.
For the impact sub Youngs is perfectly suited & the other front 4 will secure any lack of ballast Youngs has in the scrum.

Fingers crossed for Cole's injury but Wilson is solid enough.

mckay1402 wrote:In my opinion Tom Youngs is not a hooker.  If I was Hibbard or Owens I would be overjoyed if England went with Youngs over either of the other two.  He would definitely be seen as a vulnerability in Englands pack.  Hartley is the best of the three.  A hooker should be that combative type.  Look at the best players in that position...Fitzy, Moore, Britz etc.  None of them are angels and  you want them to have that kind of attitude.  In the middle of the front row you need a kind of insanity to make you keep going back to it.  For me it's Hartley every time and anyone who says he's a liability is wrong.  Yes he gets carded occasionally but he's had his card this season.  Won't be another one for a while now...

I think that's the first time I've seen Youngs called (effectively) non-combative. If anything I think he's a bit of a hot head...just not the sort to bite, gouge, elbow, etc (or be heard calling the ref a ****).

Hartley is a step up in class for me. If you want to mention his discipline Webber was hardly a saint at the weekend.

HammerofThunor wrote:

mckay1402 wrote:In my opinion Tom Youngs is not a hooker.  If I was Hibbard or Owens I would be overjoyed if England went with Youngs over either of the other two.  He would definitely be seen as a vulnerability in Englands pack.  Hartley is the best of the three.  A hooker should be that combative type.  Look at the best players in that position...Fitzy, Moore, Britz etc.  None of them are angels and  you want them to have that kind of attitude.  In the middle of the front row you need a kind of insanity to make you keep going back to it.  For me it's Hartley every time and anyone who says he's a liability is wrong.  Yes he gets carded occasionally but he's had his card this season.  Won't be another one for a while now...

I think that's the first time I've seen Youngs called (effectively) non-combative. If anything I think he's a bit of a hot head...just not the sort to bite, gouge, elbow, etc (or be heard calling the ref a ****).

I wasn't saying Tom Youngs isn't combative I was just countering the anti Hartley feeling. Comment on Hartley is not a comment on anyone else. I think Youngs is decent around the park but a hooker is a specialised position in which you need to be able to throw the ball properly and actually hook (some times). I do think he weakens Englands set piece when he comes on.

Oh ok. It's just you said Hartley was the best of the three and then went on to only talk about the fact the Hooker needs to be combatative.

For the record I think Hartley is the best hooker (with a bit of a margin). It depends whether Lancaster will 'send a message'. I don't think he will as he will have done his ban. The only player 'dropped' as a lesson was Care and that was because he didn't recieve a rugby ban as it wasn't rugby related.

I can see how it came across.

I actually think Hooker is a bit of a problem for England. If Hartley is injured then the quality drops by some distance. I don't think any front row in the six nations would be too concerned about either Webber or Youngs.

I think Hartley is our first choice, then would have Webber off the bench

Our scrum has been a real weapon in the last 20 in the AIs, and I reckon Webber and Brookes were a big part of that. He is also excellent in defence, and a decent ball carrier.

I like Youngs dynamism in the loose, rucking and ball carrying but I can't forget the many times the lineout has fallen to pieces with him on, whether its his fault or the jumpers. Seeing as there isn't much prospect of Parling lining up at lock, I don't think that little bit extra in the loose is worth the potential downside at the set piece

I agree Hooker is a problem for England

Hartley is by a country mile the best - but, and it is a hugh but, is his discipline.
Youngs is great round the park but he is a poor thrower and a weak scummager
Webber isn't even the on form hooker at Bath at the moment let alone England

I think one hooker who has solidly gone about his work and I would say has possibly edged Youngs and Webber all round basics and has a strong carrying game is Jamie George. Since Brits has been injured George has taken responsibility and could be in contention for me.

Tough decision, because all 3 have their merits. 

In my opinion, Hartley is first choice but I have always been impressed when Webber pulls on an England shirt. Hartley's all round game is very good, but i'd like to see him carry more effectively. 

Youngs needs to sort his throwing out. Too often in an England shirt he's lost the ball at important times. His work around the field is unrivalled though.

I always think it's a shame that Wasps/England couldn't maxmise the potential in Tom Lindsay. An absolute specimen, but just fell down on the hooking basics. Pity, because had he sorted his throwing he could have been a massive asset.

He's a big lump but a shocking hooker. You could just chuck any big lump in if that's all you wanted.

It is a shame about Lindsay. I always thought he'd make a good 6 or 8, but was shoe-horned into the 2 shirt. 

Such a great carrier, but as Hammer says, shocking hooker!

How is this debate still going on... how many times do people have to watch mighty mouse hooker type hookers get smashed in the set piece time and time again which totally disrupts the entire game for us to finally put the nail in the head on this sort of hooker/centre hybrid.

From Lee Mears to Tom Youngs... they can do well, even look flashy against poor scrummaging teams like AUS but against the rest they will disrupt the entire game. From the Lions 09 test 1 to ENG vs WAL 2013... how many times do people have to watch car crash tv of this sort to say... ok ok... set piece no.1 priority.

Last year it was Tom Youngs missed line outs that cost us several times when he came on as sub. That might have just been a blip, but I would like to see more evidence of accurate throwing before he gets on the bench.

Plus you need to look at the from row combinations and ensure we have strong props to counter his weaker scrummaging. Mako, Youngs and Cole struggled against the Aussies for the Lions and I would not like to see them back as a unit.

Hartley to start and Webber on the bench for me, but at least Tom is pushing and that gives SL options.

hugehandoff wrote:Last year it was Tom Youngs missed line outs that cost us several times when he came on as sub. That might have just been a blip, but I would like to see more evidence of accurate throwing before he gets on the bench.

Plus you need to look at the from row combinations and ensure we have strong props to counter his weaker scrummaging. Mako, Youngs and Cole struggled against the Aussies for the Lions and I would not like to see them back as a unit.

Hartley to start and Webber on the bench for me, but at least Tom is pushing and that gives SL options.

His cameo vs. NZ in the 2013 AI's was brilliant no?

England ahead by 2 with 15 mins to go and SL brings on T. Youngs. He instantly miss-throws FOUR lineouts in a row which gives NZ territory and tries for the win.

Quite possible one of the worst displays I've ever seen.

I don't like what Cockerill had to say about the England hooker spot. He's entitled to support the claim of his own player but I wish he hadn't gone on to rubbish the other contenders.

“If there is a better hooker in England after the weekend I don’t know who he is,” Cockerill said. “Tommy has been outstanding for us.

“If Webber has any pretensions of playing at Test level in front of Tom Youngs, you saw at the weekend the difference: the ball-carrying, the mentality, the mauling. Tom is a different league, for me, to Hartley and to Webber.”

“Tom’s throwing is as good as anybody’s,” Cockerill said. “I have got no qualms about that. Hartley has more poor days at the office than Tom Youngs.

“Tom Youngs’ discipline and attitude to physicality is right on the line. It is not over the line, it is not under the line, it is right on it every time he plays. I don’t know what Tommy’s disciplinary record is but I think it is a lot better than the other bloke.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11331839/Dan-Cole-injury-blow-puts-England-coach-Stuart-Lancaster-in-a-fresh-quandary-ahead-of-Six-Nations-opener.html

I think we all want coaches and players to be free to speak their mind, but I think you can do that without disrespecting opposition players.

fa0019 wrote:

hugehandoff wrote:Last year it was Tom Youngs missed line outs that cost us several times when he came on as sub. That might have just been a blip, but I would like to see more evidence of accurate throwing before he gets on the bench.

Plus you need to look at the from row combinations and ensure we have strong props to counter his weaker scrummaging. Mako, Youngs and Cole struggled against the Aussies for the Lions and I would not like to see them back as a unit.

Hartley to start and Webber on the bench for me, but at least Tom is pushing and that gives SL options.

His cameo vs. NZ in the 2013 AI's was brilliant no?

England ahead by 2 with 15 mins to go and SL brings on T. Youngs. He instantly miss-throws FOUR lineouts in a row which gives NZ territory and tries for the win.

Quite possible one of the worst displays I've ever seen.

That still hurts along with his immediate missed throw V France last year. Wales away is a real tough game.....imagine England lead by 2 and Tom comes on and has to throw into a defensive 5m lineout. That is too scary to contemplate!

Rugby Fan wrote:I don't like what Cockerill had to say about the England hooker spot. He's entitled to support the claim of his own player but I wish he hadn't gone on to rubbish the other contenders.

“If there is a better hooker in England after the weekend I don’t know who he is,” Cockerill said. “Tommy has been outstanding for us.

“If Webber has any pretensions of playing at Test level in front of Tom Youngs, you saw at the weekend the difference: the ball-carrying, the mentality, the mauling. Tom is a different league, for me, to Hartley and to Webber.”

“Tom’s throwing is as good as anybody’s,” Cockerill said. “I have got no qualms about that. Hartley has more poor days at the office than Tom Youngs.

“Tom Youngs’ discipline and attitude to physicality is right on the line. It is not over the line, it is not under the line, it is right on it every time he plays. I don’t know what Tommy’s disciplinary record is but I think it is a lot better than the other bloke.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11331839/Dan-Cole-injury-blow-puts-England-coach-Stuart-Lancaster-in-a-fresh-quandary-ahead-of-Six-Nations-opener.html

I think we all want coaches and players to be free to speak their mind, but I think you can do that without disrespecting opposition players.

Cockerill is talking utter ******* if he things Youngs throwing is the equal of Hartley.

When Hartley/Webber have a bad day in the office they would be ranked  say 5/10. When Tom Youngs has a bad day in the office its literally 0.5/10.
Club rugby is club rugby. Whenever he carries in test rugby he gets smashed.

I don't even support England yet I hate it when he plays test rugby because the cringe factor is often too much to deal with.

Lee Mears got 40+ caps for England and even for the Lions. The great McGeechan even threw him up against historically the best scrummagers of all time and we all know what happened there.

Just don't go there in the first place. There are very few teams where you can play a total liability at 2 and still win. If you can't scrum, can't push, can't hook and your lineout throws are at best adequate then it will cause the whole team to suffer.

Do clubs get a bonus for the number of players in and England squad; Leicesters usual high number are dwindling with Cole and Manu STILL out, Croft seriously lacking fitness and form, Parling down the pecking order and Youngs overtaken by Webber. Coaches always seem to really push there players for international recognition, obviously morally this is great for the player but for the club it means your best players are AWOL and prone to injury. Youngs is the third choice hooker at the moment and should remain so until he gets his chance on the test stage to prove otherwise, but we really do have strength in depth in this position.

I'd disagree with his carrying for England, it's still very good and makes metres. He's obviously not a liability in either the scrum or lineout either.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd disagree with his carrying for England, it's still very good and makes metres. He's obviously not a liability in either the scrum or lineout either.

Are you talking about TY? There are plenty of examples above that show he is a liablility

sirtidychris wrote:Do clubs get a bonus for the number of players in and England squad; Leicesters usual high number are dwindling with Cole and Manu STILL out, Croft seriously lacking fitness and form, Parling down the pecking order and Youngs overtaken by Webber. Coaches always seem to really push there players for international recognition, obviously morally this is great for the player but for the club it means your best players are AWOL and prone to injury.  Youngs is the third choice hooker at the moment and should remain so until he gets his chance on the test stage to prove otherwise, but we really do have strength in depth in this position.

Yes, they do. Although the EPS payments are smoothed a club still gets more if they have more EPS players (but clubs still get money if they have none). And that's discounting sponsorship, attendence, etc which can also be improved by having internationals on board.

As an aside, when in the revised EPS named? Or is it not happening this year for some reason.

mckay1402 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd disagree with his carrying for England, it's still very good and makes metres. He's obviously not a liability in either the scrum or lineout either.

Are you talking about TY?  There are plenty of examples above that show he is a liablility

Yup. He's by no means a liability. He's had plenty of good games for England in both his scrummaging and lineouts.

Well put it this way. I would rather England played Youngs than either Hartley or Webber because I want Wales and Scotland to beat them and I think they have a better chance with Youngs in.

I'd probably agree but he's not a liability and not a big step down from Webber.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mckay1402 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd disagree with his carrying for England, it's still very good and makes metres. He's obviously not a liability in either the scrum or lineout either.

Are you talking about TY?  There are plenty of examples above that show he is a liablility

Yup. He's by no means a liability. He's had plenty of good games for England in both his scrummaging and lineouts.

And plenty of poor ones - he is not a strong scrummager and his throwing is ropey.
In the loose though the pick of the bunch

I don't that's true at all geoff. He had a really poor one vs Wales where everyone was awful and didn't know what they were doing wrong and struggled with his throwing from the bench a couple of times. You maybe could point to the Lions where Vunipola was struggling majorly. When else has he been poor?

It's another one of those problems, like centre and half back, in which the answer very much lays in how the team plays as to who is selected.

From our point of view at the moment England struggle with breaking teams down in phase play without players like Manu in the back-line. That being the case a top performing line-out is crucial to launch set plays from and of course the ever-popular maul.

On that basis Hartley with a combination of 4. D Attwood 5. C Lawes in the second row seems our best set-piece option on form. I think they missed two line-outs in the entire Autumn series.

As much as i've been critical of Hartley for not standing out at very much these days, particularly some poor carrying performances. His discipline for England hasn't been appalling and he has responded well when put in some high pressure situations, Gatland being most un-sporting a few years ago a notable one.

Tom Youngs has also performed well for England but between him and Webber I think Webber can offer more consistency. I'd just like to see Youngs get some more game time for Leicester, the line-out wasn't exactly a strength for the Tigers against Bath where Attwood outshone Parling.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't that's true at all geoff. He had a really poor one vs Wales where everyone was awful and didn't know what they were doing wrong and struggled with his throwing from the bench a couple of times. You maybe could point to the Lions where Vunipola was struggling majorly. When else has he been poor?

Actually when Youngs first came in to the team his throwing was faultless. He's had some issues at notable times but I don't honestly think it's the major issues a lot of people make out.

But then again is Hartley more likely to be sent off as well? esp in high pressure games.

 TY has a higher win percentage than Hartley with England.

 His lineouts are still a myth IMO last season he had the 2nd highest lineout completion record behind brits.

 And Hartley lineouts were poor anyway in the AI's.

 Also Mckay Tom Youngs has yet to lose against Scotland or Ireland.

I'd say that even with the higher percentage lineouts Youngs' aren't as good. For England a good proportion are short throws to secure possession. Since Hartley and Lawes have established themselves again they've been brilliant. Which is kind of what I'm getting at, Youngs isn't a liability but the quality isn't as good.

I agree with that.

 But then what If Parling is a starter?

Parling is the guy he struggled with. Personally for all him being the lineout expert and all since Lawes took over it's been better. Obviously a fair few changes with lifters etc as well so hard to pick apart.

Welly wrote:But then again is Hartley more likely to be sent off as well? esp in high pressure games.

 TY has a higher win percentage than Hartley with England.

 His lineouts are still a myth IMO last season he had the 2nd highest lineout completion record behind brits.

 And Hartley lineouts were poor anyway in the AI's.

 Also Mckay Tom Youngs has yet to lose against Scotland or Ireland.

When were Hartley's line outs poor in the AIs? They missed two the whole series! Something like 97% line out success rate.

If Parling starts I shall write a letter. He's done nothing of note since he's returned from injury and despite his good track record Lawes' line out work has been superior all year. There's no coincidence either that the scrum has been stronger with a combination of Lawes and Attwood in the SR. They offer good balance in the engine room.

Chjw131 wrote:

Welly wrote:But then again is Hartley more likely to be sent off as well? esp in high pressure games.

 TY has a higher win percentage than Hartley with England.

 His lineouts are still a myth IMO last season he had the 2nd highest lineout completion record behind brits.

 And Hartley lineouts were poor anyway in the AI's.

 Also Mckay Tom Youngs has yet to lose against Scotland or Ireland.

When were Hartley's line outs poor in the AIs? They missed two the whole series! Something like 97% line out success rate.

If Parling starts I shall write a letter. He's done nothing of note since he's returned from injury and despite his good track record Lawes' line out work has been superior all year. There's no coincidence either that the scrum has been stronger with a combination of Lawes and Attwood in the SR. They offer good balance in the engine room.

Who says rugby union is a toff's game

I agree with you, the set piece has been our strength recently, and Parling doesn't offer enough extra in the loose to dislodge either of the incumbents IMO

BamBam wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:

Welly wrote:But then again is Hartley more likely to be sent off as well? esp in high pressure games.

 TY has a higher win percentage than Hartley with England.

 His lineouts are still a myth IMO last season he had the 2nd highest lineout completion record behind brits.

 And Hartley lineouts were poor anyway in the AI's.

 Also Mckay Tom Youngs has yet to lose against Scotland or Ireland.

When were Hartley's line outs poor in the AIs? They missed two the whole series! Something like 97% line out success rate.

If Parling starts I shall write a letter. He's done nothing of note since he's returned from injury and despite his good track record Lawes' line out work has been superior all year. There's no coincidence either that the scrum has been stronger with a combination of Lawes and Attwood in the SR. They offer good balance in the engine room.

Who says rugby union is a toff's game

I agree with you, the set piece has been our strength recently, and Parling doesn't offer enough extra in the loose to dislodge either of the incumbents IMO

Well i'll have a good think about writing a letter anyway and then decide that on balance it might be a bit off.

fa0019 wrote:
England ahead by 2 with 15 mins to go and SL brings on T. Youngs. He instantly miss-throws FOUR lineouts in a row which gives NZ territory and tries for the win.

Quite possible one of the worst displays I've ever seen.

You do realise that England lost 3 lineouts all match, at least one by Hartley. I agree it was not a great cameo but no need to resort to lies to make your point. Youngs has had some high profile lapses - but has also at times shown great consistency.


I am damn glad that Webber has thrown better for England than Bath - as at times at club level he has been shocking.

Hartley is the best hooker in NH rugby - if we exclude his temperament. Major caveat though.

Regarding Hartley's discipline issues I think it's worth noting that in an England shirt he has seen yellow 3 times in 61 caps, with only the recent yellow against SA being for dangerous play, the other two were for not rolling away and playing the ball off his feet.

LondonTiger wrote:

Hartley is the best hooker in NH rugby - if we exclude his temperament. Major caveat though.

Questionable - Hibbard and Best have aspects of their game that is superior to Hartley

Subjective. Hartley would be my Lions pick.

mckay1402 wrote:In my opinion Tom Youngs is not a hooker.  If I was Hibbard or Owens I would be overjoyed if England went with Youngs over either of the other two.  He would definitely be seen as a vulnerability in Englands pack.  Hartley is the best of the three.  A hooker should be that combative type.  Look at the best players in that position...Fitzy, Moore, Britz etc.  None of them are angels and  you want them to have that kind of attitude.  In the middle of the front row you need a kind of insanity to make you keep going back to it.  For me it's Hartley every time and anyone who says he's a liability is wrong.  Yes he gets carded occasionally but he's had his card this season.  Won't be another one for a while now...

Let's not omit the inestimable, but calm, shy, retiring Mr. Cockerill.  We've all seen it, and could watch over and over:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hOZRHpleH8

But it is a little funny when he talks about Hartley;  'a little red mist'.  Indeed!

Bit of difference between that and the things Hartley has been banned for.

Hartley is miles ahead of the rest. And as for his discipline...aside from the odd yellow (how many) has he got a bad record for England?

Just would like to see his carrying a bit better for his size.

Jaimie George is another who is looking good...and a good carrier.

geoff999rugby wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

Hartley is the best hooker in NH rugby - if we exclude his temperament. Major caveat though.

Questionable - Hibbard and Best have aspects of their game that is superior to Hartley

So does Youngs but it doesnt make them better overall. It is a good debate though. Best is another who is consistantly good but rarely great when you would hope them to be

LondonTiger wrote:

fa0019 wrote:
England ahead by 2 with 15 mins to go and SL brings on T. Youngs. He instantly miss-throws FOUR lineouts in a row which gives NZ territory and tries for the win.

Quite possible one of the worst displays I've ever seen.

You do realise that England lost 3 lineouts all match, at least one by Hartley. I agree it was not a great cameo but no need to resort to lies to make your point. Youngs has had some high profile lapses - but has also at times shown great consistency.


I am damn glad that Webber has thrown better for England than Bath - as at times at club level he has been shocking.

Hartley is the best hooker in NH rugby - if we exclude his temperament. Major caveat though.

Dude... watch the tape... don't rely on ESPN stats as they are at best a guideline.