Aviva Premiership Round Thirteen

Is this thread up and I can't see it?

Gloucester 24 - 23 Saracens

Sale 20 - 7   Northampton
Bath 39 - 26  Wasps
Harlequins 32 - 12 Leicester

Newcastle 38 - 7 London Welsh
London Irish 28 - 26 Exeter

The way Quins handled Leicester reinforces the point that Bath chose the wrong tactics against them last week.

Easter is winning praise again. He did what he's done for for some time now but I suppose it's inevitable there will be more attention on number eights after Morgan's injury.

This game highlights Danny Care is by far the best 9 and Easter the best 8 we have in England.

According to O'Shea, Lancaster's big doubt about Easter has been whether he can still keep that form until the RWC. Only 10 months away now and his form is if anything improving. He's not an option for post-2015, but this close in a bit of expediency is no bad thing.

Consider the possible back row combinations: Wood, Robshaw and....
...Vunipola? - the most obvious option but he's not fully in form and you need cover
...Ewers? - probably the next cab on the rank, but untried at international level
...Waldrom? - internationally experienced, in good form, unconventional
...Easter? - as per Waldrom, I would say has better skills and a better rugby brain, but may not be the cultural fit
...Armitage? - if they can secure his release, perhaps it should be looked at. Would at least silence the endless calls for his recall

That aside, it's been a pretty gripping weekend of rugby and it's shown how close the league is (outside the top 2. From an England perspective, good to see Croft back, Vunipola edging towards form, and strong showings from both Youngs, Marler, Robshaw, Care, Yarde and Brown. Centres continue to be a worry, not so much for lack of players in form but because we would seem to be heading towards yet another unfamiliar combination.

Feeling nervous for this afternoon now. Chiefs on a bad run of results so will come fired up. Our recent record against them is poor, we need to put in a real performance today.

Ozzy3213 wrote:Feeling nervous for this afternoon now.  Chiefs on a bad run of results so will come fired up.  Our recent record against them is poor, we need to put in a real performance today.

Nah - we will do them

I've got a good feeling about today, although that might be as a result of the beautiful sun beaming down on my garden or the church bells that I can hear ringing out, but I am feeling remarkably positive.

Sadly the last time I got such a hunch we lost to Northampton...

Rugby Fan wrote:The way Quins handled Leicester reinforces the point that Bath chose the wrong tactics against them last week.

I thought we probably shaded Quins in the first half on attacking play and scoring chances - but made crucial errors close to their line, while Quins were clinical. In the second half we were outclassed.

The praise for Easter was rather oot though.

Poorfour wrote:According to O'Shea, Lancaster's big doubt about Easter has been whether he can still keep that form until the RWC. Only 10 months away now and his form is if anything improving. He's not an option for post-2015, but this close in a bit of expediency is no bad thing.

Consider the possible back row combinations: Wood, Robshaw and....
...Vunipola? - the most obvious option but he's not fully in form and you need cover
...Ewers? - probably the next cab on the rank, but untried at international level
...Waldrom? - internationally experienced, in good form, unconventional
...Easter? - as per Waldrom, I would say has better skills and a better rugby brain, but may not be the cultural fit
...Armitage? - if they can secure his release, perhaps it should be looked at. Would at least silence the endless calls for his recall

That aside, it's been a pretty gripping weekend of rugby and it's shown how close the league is (outside the top 2. From an England perspective, good to see Croft back, Vunipola edging towards form, and strong showings from both Youngs, Marler,  Robshaw, Care, Yarde and Brown. Centres continue to be a worry, not so much for lack of players in form but because we would seem to be heading towards yet another unfamiliar combination.

I'd start from Robshaw, Haskell and...

Haskell is by far the form 6 and I think a better option than Wood

On the n°8 situation, been quite impressed by Hughes at Wasps too.

Mako will start against Wales you'd think, his form has been improving nicely. Be interesting to see who Lancaster goes with as back-up in the squad though...

I think you mean Billy. Mako is the prop, and still injured IIRC

No, Mako is playing, and doing quite well. But I wouldn't start him over Marler, maybe above Corbisiero if Mullen is dropped from the bench. Billy will be starting at 8. I'd prefer Easter in as a short term replacement over Armitage.

Shame Wasps didn't win. That would have really tightened the grouping. But 8th place is within 5 points of the playoffs. That's pretty good.

Hood83 wrote:

Poorfour wrote:According to O'Shea, Lancaster's big doubt about Easter has been whether he can still keep that form until the RWC. Only 10 months away now and his form is if anything improving. He's not an option for post-2015, but this close in a bit of expediency is no bad thing.

Consider the possible back row combinations: Wood, Robshaw and....
...Vunipola? - the most obvious option but he's not fully in form and you need cover
...Ewers? - probably the next cab on the rank, but untried at international level
...Waldrom? - internationally experienced, in good form, unconventional
...Easter? - as per Waldrom, I would say has better skills and a better rugby brain, but may not be the cultural fit
...Armitage? - if they can secure his release, perhaps it should be looked at. Would at least silence the endless calls for his recall

That aside, it's been a pretty gripping weekend of rugby and it's shown how close the league is (outside the top 2. From an England perspective, good to see Croft back, Vunipola edging towards form, and strong showings from both Youngs, Marler,  Robshaw, Care, Yarde and Brown. Centres continue to be a worry, not so much for lack of players in form but because we would seem to be heading towards yet another unfamiliar combination.

I'd start from Robshaw, Haskell and...

Haskell is by far the form 6 and I think a better option than Wood

Haskell been playing 7 all season. Ashley Johnson is Wasps first choice 6.

Falcons 26-7 up at ht with a tbp.

Haskell and Robshaw works similarly to Woodshaw then last season, Hound

I guess so CJ.

Hound of Harrow wrote:

Hood83 wrote:

Poorfour wrote:According to O'Shea, Lancaster's big doubt about Easter has been whether he can still keep that form until the RWC. Only 10 months away now and his form is if anything improving. He's not an option for post-2015, but this close in a bit of expediency is no bad thing.

Consider the possible back row combinations: Wood, Robshaw and....
...Vunipola? - the most obvious option but he's not fully in form and you need cover
...Ewers? - probably the next cab on the rank, but untried at international level
...Waldrom? - internationally experienced, in good form, unconventional
...Easter? - as per Waldrom, I would say has better skills and a better rugby brain, but may not be the cultural fit
...Armitage? - if they can secure his release, perhaps it should be looked at. Would at least silence the endless calls for his recall

That aside, it's been a pretty gripping weekend of rugby and it's shown how close the league is (outside the top 2. From an England perspective, good to see Croft back, Vunipola edging towards form, and strong showings from both Youngs, Marler,  Robshaw, Care, Yarde and Brown. Centres continue to be a worry, not so much for lack of players in form but because we would seem to be heading towards yet another unfamiliar combination.

I'd start from Robshaw, Haskell and...

Haskell is by far the form 6 and I think a better option than Wood

Haskell been playing 7 all season. Ashley Johnson is Wasps first choice 6.

Falcons 26-7 up at ht with a tbp.

You and your facts...which I will ignore. Well I think he's done the basics of a 6 role better than Wood has, alongside some very decent groundwork

Like it or not Calum Clark is better than all of them.

And Mark Wilson is sheer class.

Wood is an enormous part of England's lineout, which is a critical part of our game, he provides us with our best tail ball, essential for attacking rugby from that platform, and along with Lawes he's our main lineout stealer and disruptor, again in the pivotal opposition attacking position at the tail. His workrate and tackle count is always huge and he's also been improving his link play for club and country more recently.

If England are looking for a different option in that position who doesn't have the same lineout presence it has to be someone who offers substantial carrying ability and metre gains or our forward attacking options in different areas of the game will lack too much.

Haskell isn't that man, in the last 2 years he's had 5 starts and 6 bench appearances for England, carrying the ball 39 times and making only 42 metres. In his recent start against Samoa he failed to impose himself on the game in any fashion. If he gets another opportunity during the 6N he needs to produce significantly more.

If Morgan is out, Easter at 8 and Garvey at 6 with Robshaw is a decent combo

One area Easter IS excellent is the lineout

Evans must be in with a shout for England 8?

 Although would love to see Ewers on the bench.

 6) Haskell
 7) Robshaw
 8) Vunipola

 Bench Ewers would be my choice.

 Anyway the 6N's period imo will decide the Top 6 luckily Leicester won't be missing many and those that will go we have good back-ups in.

SirBurger wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:Feeling nervous for this afternoon now.  Chiefs on a bad run of results so will come fired up.  Our recent record against them is poor, we need to put in a real performance today.

Nah - we will do them

I've got a good feeling about today, although that might be as a result of the beautiful sun beaming down on my garden or the church bells that I can hear ringing  out, but I am feeling remarkably positive.

Sadly the last time I got such a hunch we lost to Northampton...

Looks like you were right this time

Good win for Quins, nice to see the big players step up.

Depressed for Easter and Care though, the former will not be picked by SL due to off field reasons even though he's the best in the country. The latter may well be picked but will quickly get jettisoned after being made to play the completely opposite style of play to that which got him picked.

yappysnap wrote:...Depressed for Easter and Care though, the former will not be picked by SL due to off field reasons even though he's the best in the country...

O'Shea's recent comments seem to suggest Lancaster was more concerned Easter wouldn't last a World Cup cycle. I hope that's the case, rather than his face not fitting. The flack he got over his remark about losing a Cup bonus seemed unreasonable me, because it just sounded like a typical bit of black humour rather than a sign of misguided priorities.

If anything, Easter's offloading game has improved since 2011. I suspect Ashton would love to track a player who made the ball available as much as him. As it stands, we've got more chance of seeing Cipriani in and England shirt again than either of those two.

Easter shouldn't be involved with England, we've moved on.

Decent win for the Falcons with a solid TBP. Scrum was pretty dire again and a bit of a concern. Barnes had a great game, nice to get a decent ref up here.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Easter shouldn't be involved with England, we've moved on.

But surely if Morgan is out long term you'd prefer an experienced older head to fill in for him with RWC round the corner target then another uncapped player? Or would you like to see Wood at 8 again?

8's I would go....

1) Billy V
2) Ewers

Sgt, as for the falcons...I agree our scrum is a real concern. Whats Micky Ward actually doing with them...(ignoring the fact we don't have a decent scrummaging LH and Lawson isn't the biggest chap in the world)

I thought we had already identified that selecting players out of position at No8 was a bad idea?

yappysnap wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Easter shouldn't be involved with England, we've moved on.

But surely if Morgan is out long term you'd prefer an experienced older head to fill in for him with RWC round the corner target then another uncapped player? Or would you like to see Wood at 8 again?

Easter is in no better form than he was in 2010/11. We know he is good at offloading and at club level he is powerful. We also know that at international level he was not quite good enough, not quite powerful enough and too slow. He is slower now and could potentially be humiliated at the top level.

Yappy, he's too slow for Int rugby. He was too slow 3 years ago and I doubt he's improved in that area.

We have more viable options in Billy, Waldroum, Ewers etc

I don't actually think he's slower now, I think he's faster than in 2011. And he was fine, if unspectacular, for England. He'd need a power carrier elsewhere in the pack to work though at int level

I'd argue that Waldrom is no faster and a very similar player! And Ewers is way behind him form wise, I've yet to see what all the fuss is about with Ewers. Last time he played for the Saxons he was poor too and his replacement was much better.

I'd rather start with Billy V and have Haskell as bench cover for all 3 back row positions I think. Baring an injury to Billy, I can't see Burt calling up Easter, he has nailed his colours to the mast a bit with him.

A very pleasing win for Bath this weekend, the forwards were very good in particular, even though Burgess has received all the headlines and plaudits, mostly for not looking like a headless chicken. Slightly worrying number of knocks to backs towards the end though, maybe lucky in a way that their is a premiership break coming up.


What is exciting at the moment is how the tight the table is from 3rd-8th, all to play for and I think it will be a very exciting second half of the season.

I also think he is in better form than in 2011, though not as good form as he was in 2012 and 2013

yappysnap wrote:I'd argue that Waldrom is no faster and a very similar player! And Ewers is way behind him form wise, I've yet to see what all the fuss is about with Ewers. Last time he played for the Saxons he was poor too and his replacement was much better.

Unless they have a head to head race we will never know. I suspect Waldrom is appreciably quicker though - not blindingly fast but quicker than he looks, and sufficient pace that he once outplayed Tipuric when playing 7 for Tigers.

I'd argue that Waldroum is without question faster.

I personally wouldn't go Ewers but I'd prefer we went with him than Easter. We need to look forward not bring in guys to do a job for a few games.

Let's be honest, the staring 8 will be Vunipola

Waldrom to me doesn't do the work rate else where needed for a international 8.

Oh I do not want Thomas playing for England, and yes BillyV will start with Haskell probably on the bench. wonder if we will see Steffon for the Saxons

Word up North is that Mark Wilson is to play 8 for the Saxons...

ABout time he was in the Saxons....

Moving slightly away from international selection issues, what was the standard of officiating like in matches this weekend. I have to say the ref in our game did a pretty good job, in that you hardly noticed him. There were a couple of incidents where both teams could have picked up cards by the letter of the law, but he used common sense and the game stayed 15 a side for 80 minutes.

I've only just noticed this round saw a complete sweep of home team wins.

Ozzy3213 wrote:Moving slightly away from international selection issues, what was the standard of officiating like in matches this weekend.  I have to say the ref in our game did a pretty good job, in that you hardly noticed him.  There were a couple of incidents where both teams could have picked up cards by the letter of the law, but he used common sense and the game stayed 15 a side for 80 minutes.  

Barnes was great.

He let the game flow and nailed pretty much everything.

Ozzy3213 wrote:Moving slightly away from international selection issues, what was the standard of officiating like in matches this weekend.  I have to say the ref in our game did a pretty good job, in that you hardly noticed him.  There were a couple of incidents where both teams could have picked up cards by the letter of the law, but he used common sense and the game stayed 15 a side for 80 minutes.  

Not in the Glaws game. I rarely criticise refs, but the officiating was appalling. I don't blame JP Doyle as it is the job of the touch judges, but Sarries were constantly going off side without any reproach. They would charge offside, then stop and retreat before being pinged, but when the ball came out of the ruck they would still be offside and would just charge at the receiver. I started counting this half way through the first half and by half time this has happened 10 times!

What was unique with our game was that none of the scrums ended up in a penalty, which in one way was great to see. Unfortunately the fact that Doyle and co failed to see Vunipola drop the scrum on 3 occasions is less good to see!

However, I will give Doyle his dues, all the cards were deserved although I'm surprised he didn't end up binning Stooke,

HongKongCherry, you forgot to mention several clear knock-ons by Gloucester that were missing/ignored

Also, the advantage/not advantage...when does an offside occur? When the kick was made or when they interfer with the ball.

Each game I saw - the refs allowed the team in possession to pretty much break every maul law going, while penalising the defensive side for anything and everything.

I suspect the AP teams will get a shock in the next two weeks as they find other refs a lot less accommodating.

LondonTiger wrote:Each game I saw - the refs allowed the team in possession to pretty much break every maul law going, while penalising the defensive side for anything and everything.

I suspect the AP teams will get a shock in the next two weeks as they find other refs a lot less accommodating.

Luke Pearce was pretty good on the maul, I thought, and allowed Quins to execute some smart defensive moves. Charlie Matthews was allowed to rise up through a split in the Tigers maul like the kraken emerging from the deep to wrap up the ball carrier, and Robshaw was allowed to go round the back of another "maul" and tackle the ball carrier when Leicester formed a flying wedge without engaging. The latter in particular is important as I've seen plenty of times this season where a team has formed into a one-team wedge before the ball carrier has been touched and then players reach out and pull opposing players into the maul. The law is clear that the tackle has to happen first, so I don't know why it is being allowed.

Pearce also did a pretty good job all round. At the ground I thought some of his scrum decisions were wrong, including penalising Quins when Leicester shoved before the ball went in, but on replay he had been clear from the first scrum what he didn't like (Sinckler's body position being too low to support his own weight) and didn't hesitate to blow up when he kept seeing it. Disappointing for Quins fans, but good refereeing.

I thought Pearce allowed Tigers and Quins when in possession to join the maul in front of the ball carrier, while penalising both teams if they were even a millimetre away from the back foot.

It was however a game where - lineouts aside - both teams tried to move the ball quickly.


What really bugs me is I have seen most teams score a try from the driving maul recently (or penalty try) that would have seen the attacking team penalised by SH refs. The ball carrier detaching and working his way to the back of the maul is my biggest bugbear.

And as I said I am worried that in Europe and 6Ns we will start getting pinged for offences that AP refs let go.

I agree that generally the refereeing of the maul in recent AP rounds has hugely favoured the attacking side

I can't remember a season where so many tried have been scored by driving mauls, Bath, Sarries and Saints have all got in on the action in the last few months and even Quins have a few!

Wasps have got a shedload from driving maul, we have a few and Sale do it pretty well at times.