Ben Morgan out for about 6 months. Who should take his place?

With Ben Morgan going off injured this week end, it look like he could be out for about 6 months. Who should be his replacement?

The Natural choice would be Bill V. But who should be on the bench?  

Is this the time to give Nick Easter a return to the England set up.

Thomas Waldram? Since his move to the chiefs he has been playing out of his skin.

Will SL swallow his pride and Call up Stephen Armatage? surely if any one should be given a chance it is him.


Who do you think should take Ben Morgans place?

Burgess?

The bench will probably be Haskell.

BV in the starting 15, Clark on the bench as he is playing the best of the all-rounders at the moment. People forget that Robshaw can cover 8 if necessary. I seem to remember him being quite successful there fro Quins

Nick Easter is consistently the best eight in the AP. He combines ball carrying with a great offload. Vunipola's form has not been great. He never looks fit to me. That might explain why he fades out of the match after forty or fifty minutes. Haskell would be my next choice after Easter.

I do not expect to see Easter. I am sure he is banned by the blazers at the RFU for acting as shop steward for England players over money demands. Bomber is not the sort to rock the boat by picking him.

Can Haskell play 8, he seems to be the logical choice and will increase the pack's intelligent quotient by a factor of 2.5

Easter is clearly week in week out performing the best in the AP. He will last until either Morgan comes back or the RWC arrives. SL must consider him and explain why not if he doesn't.

I don't understand these calls for coaches to explain all their selections and non-selections. I can't see how they are under any obligation to do that.

In the case of Easter - who I think deserved selection two years ago when Wood was chosen at eight against Wales - what happens if Lancaster does tell us "I don't think he's good enough"? Will those who disagree call for Lancaster to be sacked?

Its pretty clear it will be Billy V which is absolutely fine as he is roaring back to form.

After that Haskell or Ewers as back up.

I'd like to see Billy learn a bit more from Ben Morgan. ie not always be so quick to hit contact...look to hit the gaps when possible for the offloads which he is excellent at. That would take his game up to the next level.

Has to be BV to start with one of the utility players on the bench, but if/when BV gets injured I would be pretty happy if Easter got called up.

To be fair to BV also I think he is much fitter than he used to be, and is finally finding his form again

That's pretty much him out for the World Cup then, such bad luck for the lad

Has to be Billy first up, I'm still undecided on the whole Steffon Armitage thing, Ewers would be my next man up and Easter could pretty much just be parachuted in for the world cup as a last resort and still do ok IMO

Much discussion in the media that he can make the RWC, but considering how hard he seems to have to work to keep the fitness up you do have to wonder

Ben Morgan is out of the World cup in my opinion

"the Gloucester No 8 faces a minimum of six months on the sidelines with a serious leg injury. "The 25-year-old had a metal plate and nine screws inserted into his left leg during the early hours of Saturday morning, having suffered a spiral fracture and severe ligament damage in the victory over Saracens"

IF his leg heals in 6 months he will have no time to get fit with the warm up games only a month after his possible return. For me this just makes the exceptional case of Armitage even stronger, he plays 7 and 8. With no further injuries backrow players for me are now.

Wood
Vunipola
Robshaw

Haskell
Armitage
Clark/Croft

I don't really get all those arguing for a return for Easter. He may well be one of the best 8s in the Prem but he never really shone for England (to put it mildly), so not sure why there is any reason to believe that he would now after over 2 years out of the team. Top level sport is full of people who look great at club level but can't make the step up, or those who don't stand out for their clubs but can lift their game for internationals - I think Easter falls into the former category.

What is it people are sure about with Ewers...big power house covers 8 and 6.

Also Garvey?

Easter did make the step up and was very effective. He just wasnt going to run in any tries from the half way line. And he was an unlucky captain (being kind)

For those who watch bath; Garvey should be in there certainly over Croft, Clark or Ewers at this time. But no point mentioning him as Lancs will never pick him. Same with Fearns, who sadly is prone to injury but both Garvey/Fearns would have alot to offer and certainly bring more ball carrying impact than anyone bar Vunipola and maybe the hask.

Haskell isn't a great carrier for me. Ewers would certainly be up there though.

I agree with an earlier comment here. Selection is a huge part of the coaches job - arguably the most important. Selection is also just an opinion and the coach shouldn't have to explain it. Have them focus on explaining the reust.

I think there are some selective memories going on here (those saying Easter never stepped). I remember many games where he was by far and away the main reason we won games (certainly the game against Australia in the 2007 World Cup). I'd be more than happy to have him as emergency cover for the World Cup.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Its pretty clear it will be Billy V which is absolutely fine as he is roaring back to form.

After that Haskell or Ewers as back up.

I'd like to see Billy learn a bit more from Ben Morgan. ie not always be so quick to hit contact...look to hit the gaps when possible for the offloads which he is excellent at. That would take his game up to the next level.

Roaring back to form?

Outplayed by Morgan till he went off. Even more comprehensively outplayed by Evans.

I'd like to see Dave Ewers get a chance, he's a very powerful 6/8 and has got the most potential out of that group.

The way i'd split England's back row bench slot at the moment is power v versatility.

Power: Dave Ewers, Thomas Waldrom, Nick Easter, Carl Fearns

Versatility: Tom Croft, Callum Clark, James Haskell, Matt Kvesic

Those in my opinion are the bench options for England with BV starting. We have looked our best with a strong powerful bench coming on and that's the way, given our midfield woes we need to be looking at the game at the moment. We don't want to go back to a Croft/Robshaw/Wood BR again do we?!

I think Haskell will get the nod and I wouldn't object to that but i'd like to see Ewers brought into camp and developed.

An interesting combination might be the following: 19. N Easter 20. J Haskell - that's an option that could work for us given the overall work rate in the team.

HammerofThunor wrote:I think there are some selective memories going on here (those saying Easter never stepped). I remember many games where he was by far and away the main reason we won games (certainly the game against Australia in the 2007 World Cup). I'd be more than happy to have him as emergency cover for the World Cup.

Agreed, was always a big fan. It's in his favour that he Robshaw and Care know each-other's games so well.

Surprised no-one's mentioned Tommy the Tank at Exeter. He's been in excellent form. He's not exactly a poster boy but he does a lot of the dirty stuff and carries well, in addition to looking like he's shifted a bit of weight. He's also played under Lancaster, unlike Easter who, as stated above, may be "outlawed" by the Blazers following 2011...

An 8 for an 8?

Easter has been excellent and stand out exceptional. When even a blind man could see he is the best-selling 8 it does mean why can't SL? That's why people are calling for SL to explain his exclusion. There is no maybe about it.

SL has probably been told not to select him. He got rid of the "dead wood" and players who wouldn't be likely to considered for RWC 2015 when he took over for the 6N in 2012. Easter was one of those "not required".

I agree with selecting Easter (if he's on such good form why not use him??) but it's likely that Lancaster won't if he wants to avoid a massive RFU style headache. Expect Haskell on the bench and A.N Other from the plethora of back row potentials to fill Morgan's massive void.

"to fill Morgan's massive void"

Is Ewers actually international standard he's a big lump, but doesn't he mainly play six behind stand out waldrom at 8. I also wonder if he is a bit ponderous or does he smash defendes like Nathan hughes, not overweight billy vunipola, Ben Morgan etc. We should just chuck banahan in there and see what happens ! Less ridiculous than people suggesting Burgess at 8 in the short term !

Cumbrian wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:I think there are some selective memories going on here (those saying Easter never stepped). I remember many games where he was by far and away the main reason we won games (certainly the game against Australia in the 2007 World Cup). I'd be more than happy to have him as emergency cover for the World Cup.

Agreed, was always a big fan.  It's in his favour that he Robshaw and Care know each-other's games so well.

Speaking of selective memories . . .


He was decent for England, nothing more, and rarely stood out as being a key performer which is what you need from your 8. If he does come back I hope he plays as well as he does for Quins but I am just a bit sceptical that he has it in him to do that.

Saying that, with Morgan out and Billy V still not back to his best, there aren't exactly a stack of options at present.

sirtidychris wrote:Is Ewers actually international standard he's a big lump, but doesn't he mainly play six behind stand out waldrom at 8. I also wonder if he is a bit ponderous or does he smash defendes like Nathan hughes, not overweight billy vunipola, Ben Morgan etc. We should just chuck banahan in there and see what happens ! Less ridiculous than people suggesting Burgess at 8 in the short term !

Ewers played the whole season at 8 last year after Baxter retired and he's always been primarily an 8. I think Baxter Snr plays him at 6 because he recognises the need for two big carriers from the BR and Ewers has the fitness and power in the tackle to play at BS. What he would offer England is a different dimension at 6 as well as being a conventional 8.

I still think, given the injuries to key locks like Slater and Launchbury, there's room to play Easter as a SR/BR cover from the bench in the 19 shirt. It's a different option anyway.

Having said that, apart from the odd Italy game Easter was never a No.8 who caught the eye like all the other international 8's. Anyone would think he was Duane Vermulen in his day but he wasn't anywhere near that standard. What he was exceptional at was control from the base, particularly in a retreating scrum.

Chjw131 wrote:

sirtidychris wrote:Is Ewers actually international standard he's a big lump, but doesn't he mainly play six behind stand out waldrom at 8. I also wonder if he is a bit ponderous or does he smash defendes like Nathan hughes, not overweight billy vunipola, Ben Morgan etc. We should just chuck banahan in there and see what happens ! Less ridiculous than people suggesting Burgess at 8 in the short term !

Ewers played the whole season at 8 last year after Baxter retired and he's always been primarily an 8. I think Baxter Snr plays him at 6 because he recognises the need for two big carriers from the BR and Ewers has the fitness and power in the tackle to play at BS. What he would offer England is a different dimension at 6 as well as being a conventional 8.

I still think, given the injuries to key locks like Slater and Launchbury, there's room to play Easter as a SR/BR cover from the bench in the 19 shirt. It's a different option anyway.

Having said that, apart from the odd Italy game Easter was never a No.8 who caught the eye like all the other international 8's. Anyone would think he was Duane Vermulen in his day but he wasn't anywhere near that standard. What he was exceptional at was control from the base, particularly in a retreating scrum.

I guess you have to work with what players offer and their limitations. I remember way back when Scott Quinnell played his 1st first game against England, making a powerful and spectacular run through the English team only for Deano to casually rip the ball off him as he was going past. There can be a difference between eye catching and effective.

Agree, Easter's only stand out at int. level was control at the base of the scrum. In every other facet he was outplayed by others as far as I'm concerned. A very very good player, but I think the slight lack of pace means when stepping up he's always just a fraction behind the game.

Ewers looks ponderous to me, and doesn't carry as well as his frame suggests he should. I think Waldrom is a better 8.

Haskell should be played at 6, he's playing practically as a 6.5 and in really top form.

I think B Vunipola is way off form, and has possibly slipped back a little in terms of game management and fitness. As someone else said, it'd be nice to see him run for space, or even the arms! He's got a decent turn of pace but he seems too interested in going over people. It's a great option when needing a tight carrier to get small gains, but he needs to develop his game.

That said, i think he's the obviously option.

jelly wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:I think there are some selective memories going on here (those saying Easter never stepped). I remember many games where he was by far and away the main reason we won games (certainly the game against Australia in the 2007 World Cup). I'd be more than happy to have him as emergency cover for the World Cup.

Agreed, was always a big fan.  It's in his favour that he Robshaw and Care know each-other's games so well.

Speaking of selective memories . . .


He was decent for England, nothing more, and rarely stood out as being a key performer which is what you need from your 8. If he does come back I hope he plays as well as he does for Quins but I am just a bit sceptical that he has it in him to do that.

Saying that, with Morgan out and Billy V still not back to his best, there aren't exactly a stack of options at present.

I don't think it is selective memory to say that Easter was fairly consistent throughout his England career though, he never really let anybody down. I can't think off the top of my head many (if any) games he was humiliated in. People compare him to a guy like Kieran Read and point that Easter isn't as good, well who is? Being compared to the best player in the world and coming up short doesn't make you a bad player.

I can't help but think that if he was a 20 year old who hadn't been called up before, there would be a lot of people clambering for his inclusion because he is still just about the best performing no.8 in the Premiership at the moment.

I think people are framing it as a backwards step, which would be true if it were a long term, but it wouldn't be a long term thing and he would probably be used sparingly. You've got to compare the different candidates and see what they bring to the party. Players like Ewers maybe more powerful, but Easter has better skills and experience. We shouldn't forget that Easter has nearly 50 caps which is certainly a boon in a squad so light on experience.

sirtidychris wrote:"to fill Morgan's massive void"

If that happens i expect him to be out for longer than 6 months

A big plus for Easter is that he's been around the block a few times already, so dropping into the squad should be a lot easier if it's last minute. He'd also have his team mates right next to him and around him so it'll allow him to play naturally and to know that they'll be able to follow.

Guys like Ewers, Armitage, TT are all younger yes. But that is the only thing going for them over him on form. So should our emergency back up 8 be picked on experience and the ease that they can fit in? Or age? Seems a no brainer to me.

They offer slightly different attributes though, mainly the big carrying. I don't think many people would argue against Easter being in the best form but would he contribute to the areas where we are lacking with the loss of Morgan? DO you think including Easter would mean a change in the rest of the pack?

Cumbrian wrote:

jelly wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:I think there are some selective memories going on here (those saying Easter never stepped). I remember many games where he was by far and away the main reason we won games (certainly the game against Australia in the 2007 World Cup). I'd be more than happy to have him as emergency cover for the World Cup.

Agreed, was always a big fan.  It's in his favour that he Robshaw and Care know each-other's games so well.

Speaking of selective memories . . .


He was decent for England, nothing more, and rarely stood out as being a key performer which is what you need from your 8. If he does come back I hope he plays as well as he does for Quins but I am just a bit sceptical that he has it in him to do that.

Saying that, with Morgan out and Billy V still not back to his best, there aren't exactly a stack of options at present.

I don't think it is selective memory to say that Easter was fairly consistent throughout his England career though, he never really let anybody down.  I can't think off the top of my head many (if any) games he was humiliated in.  People compare him to a guy like Kieran Read and point that Easter isn't as good, well who is? Being compared to the best player in the world and coming up short doesn't make you a bad player.

I can't help but think that if he was a 20 year old who hadn't been called up before, there would be a lot of people clambering for his inclusion because he is still just about the best performing no.8 in the Premiership at the moment.  

I think people are framing it as a backwards step, which would be true if it were a long term, but it wouldn't be a long term thing and he would probably be used sparingly. You've got to compare the different candidates and see what they bring to the party.  Players like Ewers maybe more powerful, but Easter has better skills and experience.  We shouldn't forget that Easter has nearly 50 caps which is certainly a boon in a squad so light on experience.

No, it certainly isn't selective memory to say that he was "fairly consistent" throughout his England career. It is to suggest that there were "many games where he was by far and away the main reason we won". Those two assessments of his England career are poles apart.

I think the arguments against Easter are the same ones that apply against Strettle and Ashton. They may score plenty for Saracens but there are sufficient doubts against them at international level to mean that they are unlikely to get a chance again.

No 7&1/2 wrote:They offer slightly different attributes though, mainly the big carrying. I don't think many people would argue against Easter being in the best form but would he contribute to the areas where we are lacking with the loss of Morgan? DO you think including Easter would mean a change in the rest of the pack?

No, when he hits the line at pace like he does for Quins he makes yards against any opposition. He's played against a lot of Int players in Europe anyway and never been shown up, I don't know why it would suddenly happen now.

Now if he wasn't hitting the line at pace, like the rest of our pack..

He didn't really do it in a white shirt though previously. For me include him as the form 8 but to get the best out of the pack you make up for lack of carrying in the rest. Putting Vunipola, Dickenson, Ewers you don't have to. Or put Easter in keep the pack the same and don't see the best of him again.

Easter is also a good pack leader. We have a lot of decent players with good attitudes but I dont think we have many 'leaders'

And he did do it in the white shirt. Go dig up the numbers and see

Carrying stats lost? I'm not overly bothered by the stats but watching the games he wasn't a great carrier for us. Much like everyting in a rugby team though that should have been balanced by the rest of the pack which it wasn't. Without Morgan we would need to replace that carrying which in my mind Easter wouldn't be able to. We'd need someone else.

Everyone seems to be looking for a stand out player, they are likely to be disappointed.

Easter has had stand out performances for England but like EVERYONE else, the vast majority of his games have been avaerage. If stand out perfornaces were the norm ( which they are not) then he would be below average.

England need someone that can hold the shirt until Morgan comes back or BV shows he is fit and back to his best. Easter fits that need, he would need to play though, I don't see Easter as a bench option.

jelly wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:

jelly wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:I think there are some selective memories going on here (those saying Easter never stepped). I remember many games where he was by far and away the main reason we won games (certainly the game against Australia in the 2007 World Cup). I'd be more than happy to have him as emergency cover for the World Cup.

Agreed, was always a big fan.  It's in his favour that he Robshaw and Care know each-other's games so well.

Speaking of selective memories . . .


He was decent for England, nothing more, and rarely stood out as being a key performer which is what you need from your 8. If he does come back I hope he plays as well as he does for Quins but I am just a bit sceptical that he has it in him to do that.

Saying that, with Morgan out and Billy V still not back to his best, there aren't exactly a stack of options at present.

I don't think it is selective memory to say that Easter was fairly consistent throughout his England career though, he never really let anybody down.  I can't think off the top of my head many (if any) games he was humiliated in.  People compare him to a guy like Kieran Read and point that Easter isn't as good, well who is? Being compared to the best player in the world and coming up short doesn't make you a bad player.

I can't help but think that if he was a 20 year old who hadn't been called up before, there would be a lot of people clambering for his inclusion because he is still just about the best performing no.8 in the Premiership at the moment.  

I think people are framing it as a backwards step, which would be true if it were a long term, but it wouldn't be a long term thing and he would probably be used sparingly. You've got to compare the different candidates and see what they bring to the party.  Players like Ewers maybe more powerful, but Easter has better skills and experience.  We shouldn't forget that Easter has nearly 50 caps which is certainly a boon in a squad so light on experience.

No, it certainly isn't selective memory to say that he was "fairly consistent" throughout his England career. It is to suggest that there were "many games where he was by far and away the main reason we won". Those two assessments of his England career are poles apart.

I think the arguments against Easter are the same ones that apply against Strettle and Ashton. They may score plenty for Saracens but there are sufficient doubts against them at international level to mean that they are unlikely to get a chance again.

I don't know how to quantify 'many' in this context, but there were certainly games that I can remember where he was very good.  My point was that in Easter you have (had?) a guy who performed at a consistently good level and was occasionally excellent at international level.  You can't apply that to too many challengers.  

I think the situation is slightly different with Strettle/ Ashton, because there is a lot more depth in the back three than at no.8.

To be honest though, I think it is all pie in the sky because I don't believe Lancaster will pick him.  I just hope that Tom Wood doesn't get shoe horned back into the position.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Everyone seems to be looking for a stand out player, they are likely to be disappointed.

Easter has had stand out performances for England but like EVERYONE else, the vast majority of his games have been avaerage. If stand out perfornaces were the norm ( which they are not) then he would be below average.

England need someone that can hold the shirt until Morgan comes back or BV shows he is fit and back to his best. Easter fits that need, he would need to play though, I don't see Easter as a bench option.

I agree that if he's picked he wouldn't make a great bench option in the 20 shirt but that's why I think there's room for him at 19. Particularly if Lawes and Attwood are playing who can all run the line-out along with Tom Wood.

Easter was perfectly satisfactory for England but little more than that. It's why he's never been a Lion and why even MJ tried to move him on and replace him with Crane, who's got to be the most boring 8 in world rugby.

The other issue with Easter that can be overlooked is that he was most likely excluded by Lancaster for his potential disruptive influence on the team. He's an old school guy and I can't see him fitting in with Lancs new-wave team ethos. Despite him being a 'leader' he may not be the sought of leader Lancs wants.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Carrying stats lost? I'm not overly bothered by the stats but watching the games he wasn't a great carrier for us. Much like everyting in a rugby team though that should have been balanced by the rest of the pack which it wasn't. Without Morgan we would need to replace that carrying which in my mind Easter wouldn't be able to. We'd need someone else.

hmmm - the Telegraph used to have a stats tool that listed carries distance etc for the 6N, but I cant seem to find it now.. I'll have to do some more digging to find some numbers but that will have to wait until this evening. Damn work getting in the way of important stuff.

From memory Easter used to rank top or nearly top in carries and offloads, and very highly for his lineout work. Distance carried was none too shabby but as we all know that isnt quite his thing ^^. The indication was that he spent a lot of time with the ball in his hands.

I really like the way that Morgan can really shift when the opportunity arises. I think Billy can be a real weapon too, and fit and on form I'd have either in front of Easter because they can cause opposition teams a lot of problems. But after them you have to consider Easter. Armitage might be an option, but I am not convinced that Ewer is ready yet, so we end up with a very short list.

Let me just make clear I think he should be considered but I think having him there would require some other changes to the pack to be as effective as we are with Morgan or Vunipola.

I've said before but id like to see Billy V learn a bit from Ben Morgan - ie not automatically look for contact.

Ben is excellent at running fast at gaps. I'd like to see Billy try that now and again (mix it up) and he could be a far more dangerous player.

I'd select Easter, you know what you are going to get from him.

Easy choice for SL imo.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Let me just make clear I think he should be considered but I think having him there would require some other changes to the pack to be as effective as we are with Morgan or Vunipola.

Yes I think that's a fair reflection of my view as well. The only issue is what other changes do you make?

Possibly at flanker. Ewers Garvey or Armitage: all unproven at this level and unavailable or mysteriously not chosen. Mako? Would weaken the scrum. Youngs? Ditto.