Saracens - Munster

First topic message reminder :

Didn't see a thread and I am stuck home watching. So I figured start a thread and see where it goes.

Stupid question: do players wear studs on the artificial pitch?

Well, really disappointed with that from Munster. Absolutely gutted to be so outplayed in every aspect of the match. Billy V certainly staked his claims to be the Incumbent England 8.

Saracens are very dominant in the half that I've seen. So credit where it's due, they're continuing to grow while a lot of Pro12 teams have gone backwards. Munster however are the exception, I think they've actually got a bit better than last season.

The Saint wrote:Saracens are very dominant in the half that I've seen. So credit where it's due, they're continuing to grow while a lot of Pro12 teams have gone backwards. Munster however are the exception, I think they've actually got a bit better than last season.

I don't think so i think they have gone backward, as much as Leinster. Penney was probably a better coach than Foley too.

Well,
Thanks for the company gents. Time to go outside and do something which won't get me in trouble with the missus.
Temps outside here is -8°C. Bloody marvelous.

TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:Stupid question: do players wear studs on the artificial pitch?

yes. the short metal ones or moulded boots.

Well, Munster were dominated and never really in the game at all. I'm a chronic optimist but we can't expect any more of a depleted Ulster in the Felix Mayol. It's turning into a bad afternoon!

Munster have really gone backwards. They are not progressing at all right now and are no longer a feared team.

Poite had an absolutely shocking games today and got so many calls wrong but that does not take anything away from what was an outstanding performance from Sarries.

VinceWLB wrote:

The Saint wrote:Saracens are very dominant in the half that I've seen. So credit where it's due, they're continuing to grow while a lot of Pro12 teams have gone backwards. Munster however are the exception, I think they've actually got a bit better than last season.

I don't think so i think they have gone backward, as much as Leinster. Penney was probably a better coach than Foley too.

They were pretty inconsistent in the league under Penney and received a couple drubbings. They did manage to occasionally step up in Europe though which was impressive. I think Munster are now the top Irish province, and they certainly have more squad depth under Foley. So they may be just slightly better than before. I don't think we can be too judgemental of them when they're grouped with Clermont and Saracens.

The Saint wrote:I think Munster are now the top Irish province, and they certainly have more squad depth under Foley. So they may be just slightly better than before. I don't think we can be too judgemental of them when they're grouped with Clermont and Saracens.  

Really?  The top Irish province??  Not sure if that accolade can be handed to any of the three provinces in the european cup.  They've all been dreadful this season.    

Ulster already down 27-10 at halftime in Toulon. Leinster to follow them at tea-time.

Obviously the changed format of the competition and actually having to compete in their own league has caught up with them.

The level playing field just shows where they're really at in European terms.

Munster have definitely regressed this season. Fortunately for them, so have a lot of the teams in the Pro 12.

Only team who has improved in the pro 12 is Edinburgh. All the other teams have either regressed or stayed the same like Glasgow and Ospreys.

Pot Hale wrote:

The Saint wrote:I think Munster are now the top Irish province, and they certainly have more squad depth under Foley. So they may be just slightly better than before. I don't think we can be too judgemental of them when they're grouped with Clermont and Saracens.  

Really?  The top Irish province??  Not sure if that accolade can be handed to any of the three provinces in the european cup.  They've all been dreadful this season.    

Ulster already down 27-10 at halftime in Toulon.   Leinster to follow them at tea-time.

Obviously the changed format of the competition and actually having to compete in their own league has caught up with them.

The level playing field just shows where they're really at in European terms.

Highest in the top 4 aren't they? And have beaten main rivals, Leinster, twice.

Pot Hale wrote:

The Saint wrote:I think Munster are now the top Irish province, and they certainly have more squad depth under Foley. So they may be just slightly better than before. I don't think we can be too judgemental of them when they're grouped with Clermont and Saracens.  

Really?  The top Irish province??  Not sure if that accolade can be handed to any of the three provinces in the european cup.  They've all been dreadful this season.    

Ulster already down 27-10 at halftime in Toulon.   Leinster to follow them at tea-time.

Obviously the changed format of the competition and actually having to compete in their own league has caught up with them.

The level playing field just shows where they're really at in European terms.

Nope it's just the natural turn of things,the provinces have been on the slide for the last few years we're still all very comfortable in our own league despite still having to adhere to the IRFU restrictions on our players gametime.We also have to stick to 4 NIQ players plus one project player which will be down to 3 + 1 next season so we're at an immediate disadvantage to the moneyball clubs.Thankfully our system will lead to us dominating the 6 nations in the next 10 years so while I'll miss Leinster dominating Europe at least Ireland will console me.

Did O'Mahony play at 8 in this game after Stander went off injured? A quick look at the stats show that he played very well there, I always thought it was his best position. Also gives the talented O'Callaghan v2 to play at blindside.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

The Saint wrote:I think Munster are now the top Irish province, and they certainly have more squad depth under Foley. So they may be just slightly better than before. I don't think we can be too judgemental of them when they're grouped with Clermont and Saracens.  

Really?  The top Irish province??  Not sure if that accolade can be handed to any of the three provinces in the european cup.  They've all been dreadful this season.    

Ulster already down 27-10 at halftime in Toulon.   Leinster to follow them at tea-time.

Obviously the changed format of the competition and actually having to compete in their own league has caught up with them.

The level playing field just shows where they're really at in European terms.

Nope it's just the natural turn of things,the provinces have been on the slide for the last few years we're still all very comfortable in our own league despite still having to adhere to the IRFU restrictions on our players gametime.We also have to stick to 4 NIQ players plus one project player which will be down to 3 + 1 next season so we're at an immediate disadvantage to the moneyball clubs.Thankfully our system will lead to us dominating the 6 nations in the next 10 years so while I'll miss Leinster dominating Europe at least Ireland will console me.

Moneyball clubs? The big three Irish provinces have larger player budgets than the English Salary cap. Whether Saracens stick to the cap is another question.

Good win for Sarries. They'll be disappointed not to get a bonus point though.

Ashton's European tries scoring record is pretty impressive.

Exiledinborders wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

The Saint wrote:I think Munster are now the top Irish province, and they certainly have more squad depth under Foley. So they may be just slightly better than before. I don't think we can be too judgemental of them when they're grouped with Clermont and Saracens.  

Really?  The top Irish province??  Not sure if that accolade can be handed to any of the three provinces in the european cup.  They've all been dreadful this season.    

Ulster already down 27-10 at halftime in Toulon.   Leinster to follow them at tea-time.

Obviously the changed format of the competition and actually having to compete in their own league has caught up with them.

The level playing field just shows where they're really at in European terms.

Nope it's just the natural turn of things,the provinces have been on the slide for the last few years we're still all very comfortable in our own league despite still having to adhere to the IRFU restrictions on our players gametime.We also have to stick to 4 NIQ players plus one project player which will be down to 3 + 1 next season so we're at an immediate disadvantage to the moneyball clubs.Thankfully our system will lead to us dominating the 6 nations in the next 10 years so while I'll miss Leinster dominating Europe at least Ireland will console me.

Moneyball clubs?  The big three Irish provinces have larger player budgets than the English Salary cap. Whether Saracens stick to the cap is another question.

Yes moneyball clubs,Toulon,Clermont and Racing are the ones that jump to mind,not the English sides.

We can also only spend our money on 4 NIQ players + 1 project player (who by definition is not going to be a big money signing),everyone else has to be able to play for Ireland so even if we had double the budget of Toulon we still couldn't use it.This is a far bigger restriction than the English or French teams have.

Dumping the limit on foreign players in a match day squad is what ruined wendyball. Rugby is heading the same way.

Don't English clubs always get a lot of backing via sponsorship, etc though? And they also get payed to release players for international duty? Not that it is extremely relevant, I'm just curious.

by VinceWLB Today at 3:08 am
Only team who has improved in the pro 12 is Edinburgh. All the other teams have either regressed or stayed the same like Glasgow and Ospreys.

I'm pretty sure Connacht would disagree

stevetynant wrote:by VinceWLB Today at 3:08 am
Only team who has improved in the pro 12 is Edinburgh. All the other teams have either regressed or stayed the same like Glasgow and Ospreys.

I'm pretty sure Connacht would disagree

Yes so far but jury is still out as i think they could have a rough 2nd part of the season, it started last week with the loss at home to Edinburgh. They could be last year's Dragons, good start to the season then fading away in the 2nd part.

Glasgow and Ospreys improved this year as have Connacht and perhaps Edinburgh

Glasgow and Ospreys improved this year as have Connacht and perhaps Edinburgh

Glasgow and Ospreys improved this year as have Connacht and perhaps Edinburgh

I don't think so TJ, it's more to do with the Irish teams going backwards.

Glasgow are significantly better for sure.

A pedant writes:

When people write about moneyball clubs, they really mean moneybag clubs, or some other pejorative phrase to describe rich b***ards.

Moneyball is a tactic first used by teams with limited resources who looked for players with qualities which were relatively underpriced. It doesn't mean clubs who seem to be able to spend without limit on a stable of marquee names.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moneyball

Ospreys and Glasgow are no better - the difference is all the three senior Irish provinces are going backwards

There is one player that Munster have sorely missed, it's James Coughlan, really raised his game for the big occasions, one of those vastly underrated player. They have badly missed Donncha Ryan too who i rate as the best Irish lock behind POC. Dave Foley for all his efforts is probably still a bit too lightweight at this level.

Munster looked panicked from the off. Williams was having a shocker at 9 and looked really poor early on, the decision to try and take Sarries on after the kick through and not get the ball to touch was very poor.

I am just not sure if the coaching setup is good enough to be honest. The lack of reaction from them was remarkable when it was clear the forwards were struggling.

Nacho Jones I guess you can ask the question in every match - is it team X playing badly or is it team Y playing well?

From what I've seen that was one of Saracen's best performances of the season. Munster were quite clearly sub par but Saracens showed an intensity and accuracy that has been missing for most of the season.

I felt that Saracens started the game in a really positive manner which set the tone, should have scored more points but the early pressure was an indication.

Munster weren't helped by the absence of Conor Murray and Saracens are a far tougher team to beat with Barritt at 12, even though he didn't have a good game.

beshocked, I am certainly not trying to take anything away from the Sarries performance as I thought they got their tactics spot on and played well. In fact, had they have had a more attacking 10, they could have scored bags more points in the first 20. I have often said that Farrell, although a very good kicker, is not dynamic enough at 10 and that actually hinders Sarries attacking game plan somewhat.

I was more referring to Munster's on field decision making and the coaching staff's decision making during the game which I thought was quite poor.

Nacho Jones don't disagree with that.

Farrell has different strengths though - he's a superior defender to any other 10 in England, he put in two huge hits - it didn't help that neither Barritt or Bosch had good games in attack IMO.

I agree Munster's decision making wasn't good but it's harder to catch your breath when the opposition is pressurising you at almost every facet and when one plan doesn't work (e.g. target the wingers with high balls and kicks), it's not easy to know what to try next.

Munster weren't to know that Ashton was going to have one his best games of the season, kicking to him on a different day might have reaped rewards.

Nachos Jones wrote:Munster looked panicked from the off. Williams was having a shocker at 9 and looked really poor early on, the decision to try and take Sarries on after the kick through and not get the ball to touch was very poor.

I am just not sure if the coaching setup is good enough to be honest. The lack of reaction from them was remarkable when it was clear the forwards were struggling.

Paul O'Connell had a very poor game - he conceeded 4 turnovers in that one game (which is huge for him bearing in mind that in 8 H Cup games last season he conceeded 2).

This maybe down to a shoulder injury he was carrying picked up against Connacht and which was mentioned in an article in the Independent by Sinead Kissane last Saturday.

sinead kissane wrote:Just because O'Connell's name might not get mentioned in an injury update, it doesn't necessarily mean he's injury-free. I assumed he missed Munster's game against Zebre last weekend because he was rested. But it was actually because of a shoulder problem he picked up during their defeat to Connacht.

At training on Tuesday, O'Connell did his own training which included hits to "get some confidence" in his shoulder before he joined the rest of the squad. He said, convincingly, that he will be fully fit to play against Saracens today in the Champions Cup.

Now, I know O'Connell is just one player, but what a player he is for us. It didn't help that CJ got injured as well.

POC seems to have the capability of turning Munster into a machine. If he's on song...Munster are (and I don't think it's the other way round). I remember the Quins game at the Stoop(?)...he seemed to start the tide that battered Quins.

All teams POC plays with up their games. I saw some internet Q&A with a couple of the Leicester players (Ed Slator, Liam Williams & Youngs) where one of the questions about who they admire most who play their positions. Slator picked O'Connell - said something to the effect about him being such a nice guy as well as such a great player he envied Youngs for having played with him!

(Liam Williams said Carter but Sexton was playing better than him at the moment).