Rugby attendances in Wales - a reasonable debate

Ok, after reading the Ospreys V Northampton match thread, I think a few things need to be explained, I am fed up of hearing that rugby is being killed by Cardiff and Swansea football clubs, these thoughts are usually from ill educated masses who now nothing of the culture that rugby has in Wales, they just see full stadiums for the only TWO professional football clubs in Wales and make their own minds up, and this is the fact that we need to get across.

Firstly, yes Cardiff F.C and Swansea F.C do have massive following's in and around their areas, but what people really need to think about is this, Swansea are west Wales and Cardiff are east Wales, in these two parts of Wales, they compete with nobody, they are the two stand alone entities that people from as far west as Pembroke dock, and as far east as Monmouth go to watch these two clubs. They compete with no one in the Welsh world of football, the only competition they have, is from Liverpool, Manchester, Arsenal and even those fans will go and watch the two Welsh clubs more often than not.

Now, secondly, if we divide the east and west if Wales up, you get FOUR professional rugby teams, people from Cardiff and the surrounding areas will support Blues, people from Gwent will support Dragons, then people from Swansea and the surrounding areas will support Ospreys and people from Llanelli and further west will support Scarlets. Add the support up for both regions in each of the east and the west and you will not be far off what the football teams in the same areas have.

Right, thirdly and this is a very important thirdly. In each and every town, village and city you will find one or two rugby clubs, for instance the Welsh premiership has a dozen clubs each getting on times up to a thousand spectators watching every week, then in the same towns you will get smaller clubs who will have a few hundred there watching week in week out, not to mention all the lower leagues, in my town alone there are about six rugby clubs, all of them get decent support. Our regions have to compete with the myriad of rugby clubs from within they're own regions, the football clubs do not have to compete with this sort of support.

The point I am trying to make with people is, that there is more than likely too much rugby in Wales to go around with the population of the country, I know of people who have family playing locally, they will go and watch their son, husband, farther play and not only that, they will help with the running of the club, they will make food in the clubhouse afterwards, they will organise events, now with so many people doing these things on a Saturday afternoon, how can they then be expected to spend more money and time on a Friday, Saturday, Sunday evening to go and watch their regions as well, especially when they are on the tele, and that is another thing, the rugby on BBC 2 Wales and S4C get massive viewing figures in Wales, and after listening to Roger Lewis, because of this, the money they get from the tele is the equivalent to getting an extra ten thousand people through the gates for each game.

Lastly, if we look at things rationally, when the national teams of both football and rugby have a game and all the fans go to watch and support, when the Welsh national football side has a match, you do not get the interest that the Welsh rugby team gets, this shows what happens when ALL the supporters of each sport get together for that one game, rugby will generate 70,000 people in a stadium and hundreds of thousands who will congregate into their local pubs and clubs, and fill their town centres or go down to the capital just for the atmosphere, the Welsh national football side just does not generate this kind of support, that is because, every fan of every rugby club in Wales equates to more people than every fan of every football club, so to summarise, rugby is as strong as it ever has been in Wales, there is just too much of it to go around.

Good effort LD, but "a reasonable debate"?
Could it ever happen in Wales?

Same old cliché's being regurgitated. There's never a reasonable debate with you LD and all this here just reiterates that.

Yes it is a well thought out article Lord, can I just add, that there are many on this and other forums, denigrate the supposed Pink Hat Brigade, I have 3 sisters, who between them have 2 husbands, who used to play, 3 sons also who played and have 5 grandsons who now take part in junior level and these 3 all help behind the scenes in senior and junior rugby, most of the people I've mentioned go to the Internationals and once or twice have worn Pink hats, 2 of the sisters in particular would debate with most on these forums and not be embarrassed in any way.

I honestly think the league the regions play in is uninteresting, if you want interest then we either need a Welsh club structure or to join the English league, but the Pro 12 is a bloody awful product top to bottom.

I will say this, in a Welsh league with the old Swalec Cup at least there was always a successful team from Wales in it.
It may sound silly but what makes the likes of Inter Milan and AC Milan so special in Italy? It's the success they have had domestically, the same goes for Real Madrid and Barcelona, like wise for Celtic and Rangers. But if you lumped all the best Spanish, English, German etc football teams into one league then only one of those teams could be successful in the league they play in.

Sadly Welsh people aren't interested in Irish, Scottish, and Italian teams, you can dress it up any way you want but it doesnt alter the fact people just don't care. The Welsh rugby season basically starts with and ends with the 6 Nations, while outside that it's about beating the English and kicking the crap into the next local village side. Until we get back to that the regional game is dead.

Years ago the English teams offered the Welsh teams the chance to join their league, they offered us 5 places and we turned them down, saying we deserved more spaces. Sadly on our own we can't afford even 5 professional teams.

The Saint wrote:Same old cliché's being regurgitated. There's never a reasonable debate with you LD and all this here just reiterates that.

Saint, why are you even on here ? All you do is give a jumped up opinion of your own views and rubbish the opinions of other people's views, seriously, you cannot be like this outside of cyberland, because if you did go around with that attitude you would swiftly become a human punch bag for people who have less patience than people like myself.

A lot of valid points.


However 5 years ago the Os could attract almost 20k spectators for a visit by Leicester - this season under 10k for Saints. something has gone seriously wrong there and it seems rather complacent to be saying that is just the way it is.

Lorddowlais attendances of Ospreys and Cardiff rugby aren't good enough regardless of whether you agree or not.


The football clubs are just one factor, it's the talent drain in Wales which has hurt Wales more.

In 2008 Ospreys used to be the Galacticos and supplied the bulk of the grandslam winning team - I think was 13 in one XV for example.

It's a shadow of the team it used to be. Drawing power is important - you used to be able to see the Galacticos in action with the tango man leading the charge.

Now there are still some good players but it's sprinkled with too many unknown players now.


It's why a team like Toulon is popular - it's the international stars they want to see.

No one cares about Ospreys and Cardiff rugby but they should. The WRU in particular hasn't treated the professional clubs with enough respect in my opinion. Also they haven't put in safeguards to prevent the talent drain.

Poor Welsh crowds are a concern.

From memory Leicester are the best supported team in Britain and Ireland and then you have a band of team all roughly equal
Bath, Gloucester, Quins, Saints, Munster, Leinster, Ulster.
Then you drop down to the 7,000+ bracket.

It is a worry that not a single Welsh province is in that group above

If any of you people know what rugby is in Wales you would understand, we are not a big country, there are more people living in the cities of England than there are in the whole of Wales, there are 316 rugby clubs in Wales, if we divide that by the population of Wales that leaves a potential of just over 11,000 supporters for each club, that is without taking into account people who will go and watch football, or people who just do not care about sports, so for us to get the attendances we are getting for our regions it is not that bad at all, there is just far too much rugby going around in Wales for the amount of people who live here. The four regions do not only have to compete with the other 314 clubs and the football teams but they have to compete with all the different age grades of each rugby club as well, people need to realise this.

Ok, I know the Welsh people on here already realise this, but people outside of Wales do not, for some, it is far more important to watch their kids, husband or farther play against a side three or four miles away than it is to go and watch their region, especially if their region is on tele afterwards and they can watch the game in the club house with a pint or in the house with a glass of wine. The more exposure the regions get on the tele, the more the next generation might feel linked with them, and when they grow up, perhaps they will go and watch the regions, but for now, we are having to make do with what it is.

Aren't there big concerns about the number of kids dropping rugby when they leave school? So it's not a case of going to watch family play...because they're not in big numbers. Although I went to watch Swansea v Glynneath over Christmas and I'm sure there were more Glynneath Supporters than Swansea ones. It was moved earlier, and transport put on to the Liberty, so that it didn't clash with the Ospreys v Scarlets game (which is always a big seller so a lot of swansea fans might have decided only to see one game that day).

HammerofThunor wrote:so that it didn't clash with the Ospreys v Scarlets game (which is always a big seller so a lot of swansea fans might have decided only to see one game that day).

And there you are hitting the nail on the head, it is either one or the other, what people need to realise as well, there is not that much money to spend in Wales, most people have to make a decision, go and watch the local side and have a few pints in the club afterwards or commute to the big stadiums and spend more to watch the regions, most people cannot find the time or money to do both.

wayne wrote:that there are many on this and other forums, denigrate the supposed Pink Hat Brigade

I have never understood this, ok there are some who ware pink cowboy hats, but you do not really see that as a majority, what's the difference to the girls who ware those to people who would put on a massive Welsh leek or the one's who where a big daffodil around their heads ? I have seen those at Twickenham as well, women warring big red roses around their heads and people who ware those all in one lycra suits, which I find quite funny, and people dressed as knights. Also in Ireland you always see people warring leprechaun hats and in Scotland you see people using those tartan hats with a ginger beard attached to them. My opinion is, these people have paid good money to go and watch their country so they should be able to support the team how they like.

People outside Wales understand perfectly its size but don't accept that is the reason for its poor crowds.

Cardiff has a bigger population than Belfast.
Swansea, is near as damn it the same.
Both are a lot bigger than Limerick.

Ireland has to content with 2 Gaelic sports as alternative attractions.
Welsh crowds are significantly down on where they use to be.

geoff999rugby wrote:People outside Wales understand perfectly its size but don't accept that is the reason for its poor crowds.

Cardiff has a bigger population than Belfast.
Swansea, is near as damn it the same.
Both are a lot bigger than Limerick.

Ireland has to content with 2 Gaelic sports as alternative attractions.
Welsh crowds are significantly down on where they use to be.

Does the Gealic sports season run the same time as the rugby season ? Also Ireland has a few more million people living there than Wales do here. Also, how many registered rugby clubs do Ireland have ?

The seasons overlap but not completely
Ireland does have a bigger population but as I have illustrated Cardiff and Swansea are big enough to compete.
Also Newport has a big Urban area.
Llanelli is by the far the smallest but often has the biggest crowds which rather illustrates the point

According to Wiki Wales has more rugby clubs than Ireland

geoff999rugby wrote:The seasons overlap but not completely
Ireland does have a bigger population but as I have illustrated Cardiff and Swansea are big enough to compete.
Also Newport has a big Urban area.
Llanelli is by the far the smallest but often has the biggest crowds which rather illustrates the point

According to Wiki Wales has more rugby clubs than Ireland

Ok, so here we go,Cardiff and Swansea, unless you have been living in a cave have two very big football clubs to contend with, also Newport does not have a big urban area, it is bigger than most areas in Wales but it is nothing compared to Cardiff and Swansea. Also as we have acknowledged Ireland has a bigger population and less rugby clubs, and the provinces do not really have to compete with any other sports, so there is a major factor why Ireland get more people watching the provinces than Wales get watching their regions.

I may have misunderstood, but I thought that in your opening post you said that Swansea and Cardiff FC's didn't have a big impact on crowd attendances?


Just going from my Welsh mates, I'd say the majority follow a region but will wouldn't actually go every weekend, more likely just at Christmas. In fact I'd say that most of them would see Wales more than their region in a season, despite watching the regions games on tv. Clearly this is anecdotal but given the attendances I would guess that this is probably true for a lot of rugby fans in Wales.

The main difference between Ireland and Wales is the respective relationships of the Unions.

The Irish Union effectively runs the Irish clubs, the Welsh rugby union in contrast seems to have a rocky relationship with the clubs. The WRU works in it's own interest like having an extra test match which damages the competitiveness of the Welsh clubs. The WRU doesn't understand that strong clubs mean a stronger wales.

The WRU also failed to put in measures to prevent Welsh players from going abroad, measures that the likes of the Irish,English and New Zealanders use.

Bathman_in_London wrote:I may have misunderstood, but I thought that in your opening post you said that Swansea and Cardiff FC's didn't have a big impact on crowd attendances?


Just going from my Welsh mates, I'd say the majority follow a region but will wouldn't actually go every weekend, more likely just at Christmas. In fact I'd say that most of them would see Wales more than their region in a season, despite watching the regions games on tv. Clearly this is anecdotal but given the attendances I would guess that this is probably true for a lot of rugby fans in Wales.

You have misunderstood, I said that Swansea and Cardiff F.C do not have a big impact on the support of rugby in Wales, not so much the regions itself. Also, if you read it properly I have stated that they have massive support in and around their areas.

beshocked wrote:The main difference between Ireland and Wales is the respective relationships of the Unions.

The Irish Union effectively runs the Irish clubs, the Welsh rugby union in contrast seems to have a rocky relationship with the clubs. The WRU works in it's own interest like having an extra test match which damages the competitiveness of the Welsh clubs. The WRU doesn't understand that strong clubs mean a stronger wales.

The WRU also failed to put in measures to prevent Welsh players from going abroad, measures that the likes of the Irish,English and New Zealanders use.

The bit in bold I can agree with, but I do not agree with the fact that people are not supporting the regions because of the WRU and their relationship with the regions, for all the people who support rugby in Wales, going to watch their local side just means more to them than going to support the regions, and as there are 312 other sides in Wales, the regions have a lot to compete with.

I have done some research and according to wikipedea, there are only 109 rugby teams in Ireland, is this right ? No wonder the provinces get so much support, they have hardly any of the competition in their country, than the regions do in Wales, Ireland have a bigger poulation with only a third amount of the clubs Wales have, and with gealic sports being played at a different time to rugby it is no wonder the provinces are more supported.

Leicester is smaller than Swansea and Cardiff. City are averaging 32k Tigers 22k. It is not a rich city and has Avery large Asian community with little interest in rugby. Leicestershire has a strong junior rugby culture. I still believe just accepting such low attendances as OK is extremely complacent.

LondonTiger wrote:Leicester is smaller than Swansea and Cardiff. City are averaging 32k Tigers 22k. It is not a rich city and has Avery large Asian community with little interest in rugby. Leicestershire has a strong junior rugby culture. I still believe just accepting such low attendances as OK is extremely complacent.

But do Leicester Tigers only get their support from Leicester ? Your username is very convenient in this debate, your a London Tiger, I would wager that a lot of support from Leicester comes from around the Leicester area as well.

LordDowlais wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:The seasons overlap but not completely
Ireland does have a bigger population but as I have illustrated Cardiff and Swansea are big enough to compete.
Also Newport has a big Urban area.
Llanelli is by the far the smallest but often has the biggest crowds which rather illustrates the point

According to Wiki Wales has more rugby clubs than Ireland

Ok, so here we go,Cardiff and Swansea, unless you have been living in a cave have two very big football clubs to contend with, also Newport does not have a big urban area, it is bigger than most areas in Wales but it is nothing compared to Cardiff and Swansea. Also as we have acknowledged Ireland has a bigger population and less rugby clubs, and the provinces do not really have to compete with any other sports, so there is a major factor why Ireland get more people watching the provinces than Wales get watching their regions.

No I do not live in a cave do you.

Newports urban area is stated at 360,000 thousand - big enough.
Also a hell of a lot bigger than Limerick.

Swansea and Cardiff do have big soccer clubs but if you knew more about the appeal of soccer in Belfast and Dublin you will know that vast numbers get on planes and boats to go to Glasgow, Manchester, Liverpool and London every week. In both cities you are far more likely to hear people talking about soccer than any other sport.

The difference in club numbers is 221 in Ireland 250 in Wales (no idea where you got 109 from - utter rubbish)

As I said we do overlap in seasons with Gaelic so how you can then dismiss that we therefore do not have to compete is bizarre
The top Gaelic season runs from January to September - it is a long season i.e. only 3 months of the Rugby season is not up against the attraction of Gaelic.

In the end all I am hearing is excuses.
The numbers are there if the effort is made and the brand is good enough.

The Provinces used to play in front of 4000 or so - we did something about it.
Leicester did not become the best supported team by sitting on their backsides.

Sadly in Wales their is no drive to make the product work and attract punters

geoff999rugby wrote:The difference in club numbers is 221 in Ireland 250 in Wales (no idea where you got 109 from - utter rubbish)

There are 312 clubs in Wales, and 4 regions, get your research correct. Also, I got the amount of clubs in Ireland from wiki. these are the clubs I got off wiki, if you can add the other 112 clubs feel free:-

AAntrim RFC
Ardee RFC
Ards RFC
Arklow RFC
Ashbourne RFC
Athboy RFC
Athy RFC
BBalbriggan RFC
Ballincollig RFC
Ballymena R.F.C.
Ballynahinch RFC
Banbridge RFC
Bective Rangers
Belfast Harlequins
Birr RFC
Blackrock College RFC
Boyne RFC
Bruff R.F.C.
CCashel RFC
Cill Dara RFC
City of Armagh RFC
Clane RFC
Clanwilliam Rugby Club
Clonakilty RFC
Clontarf FC
Collegians (Belfast)
Connemara RFC
Cooke RFC
Coolmine RFC
University College Cork RFC
Cork Constitution
County Carlow Football Club
Crosshaven RFC
CYM RFC
DDe La Salle Palmerston
Dolphin RFC
University College Dublin R.F.C.
D cont.Dublin City University RFC
Dublin University Football Club
Dungannon RFC
EEdenderry RFC
Emerald Warriors RFC
Ennis RFC
Enniscorthy RFC
GGalway Corinthians RFC
Galwegians RFC
Garda RFC
Garryowen Football Club
Gorey RFC
Greystones RFC
HHighfield RFC
IInstonians
KKanturk RFC
Kilfeacle and District RFC
Kilkenny RFC
Kinsale RFC
LLansdowne Football Club
Letterkenny RFC
Longford RFC
MMalahide RFC
Malone RFC
Midleton RFC
Millmount House RFC
Monkstown Football Club
NNaas RFC
Navan R.F.C.
Nenagh Ormond
New Ross RFC
Newbridge RFC (Ireland)
Newry R.F.C.
North Kildare RFC
North Meath RFC
North of Ireland F.C.
NUIM Barnhall RFC
OOld Belvedere
Old Christians RFC
Old Crescent RFC
Old Wesley R.F.C.
PParkmore RFC
Portadown RFC
Portarlington RFC
Portlaoise RFC
RNUI Galway RFC
Railway Union RFC
Rainey Old Boys R.F.C.
Rathdrum RFC
Roscrea RFC
SSeapoint RFC
Shamrock Warriors RFC
Shannon RFC
Skerries RFC
Sligo RFC
St Mary's College RFC
Stillorgan RFC
Sundays Well RFC
Suttonians RFC
Swords RFC
TTerenure College RFC
Thomond RFC
Tullamore RFC
Tullow RFC
UUL Bohemians R.F.C.
Ulster F.C.
Ulster Titans
WWanderers F.C. (rugby union)
Waterpark RFC
Wexford Wanderers RFC
Wicklow RFC
YYoung Munster

geoff999rugby wrote:In the end all I am hearing is excuses.
The numbers are there if the effort is made and the brand is good enough.

The Provinces used to play in front of 4000 or so - we did something about it.
Leicester did not become the best supported team by sitting on their backsides.

Sadly in Wales their is no drive to make the product work and attract punters

Sais you.

Come over to Wales and see how many people support rugby, you will find that they are not excuses but facts, and there is something that you have failed to provide, when I have.

LordDowlais wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Leicester is smaller than Swansea and Cardiff. City are averaging 32k Tigers 22k. It is not a rich city and has Avery large Asian community with little interest in rugby. Leicestershire has a strong junior rugby culture. I still believe just accepting such low attendances as OK is extremely complacent.

But do Leicester Tigers only get their support from Leicester ? Your username is very convenient in this debate, your a London Tiger, I would wager that a lot of support from Leicester comes from around the Leicester area as well.

To be fair I think Leicester is smaller than Cardiff but larger than Swansea.

Wikipedia wrote:
In the 2011 census, the population of the Leicester unitary authority was 330,000, making it the largest unitary authority in the East Midlands region, whilst 509,000 people lived in the wider Leicester Urban Area,[3] making Leicester the tenth largest city in the United Kingdom and England's eleventh largest urban area.

Wikipedia wrote:
The [Cardiff] unitary authority area's mid-2011 population was estimated to be 346,100, while the population of the Larger Urban Zone was estimated at 861,400 in 2009.

Wikipedia wrote:
The population of the Swansea built-up area within the unitary authority boundaries in 2011 was about 179,485, and the council population was 238,700. The other built-up areas within the unitary authority are centred on Gorseinon and Pontarddulais. In 2011, the Gorseinon built-up area had a population of 20,581 and the Pontarddulais built-up area had a population of 9,073.[36] However, the wider urban area including most of Swansea Bay has a total population of 300,352 (making it the 24th largest urban area in England and Wales).

I am not sure LordDowlais' main point makes much sense.  It is true that Rugby's support is more evenly spread between the large professional clubs and semi-pro and amateur clubs than football but this is true in England as well.  The fact remains that the regions in Wales do not inspire the support of AP clubs in England. For instance Gloucester are based in a far smaller town than either Cardiff or Swansea but are better supported.  

Personally I think this is down to the artificial nature of the Welsh regions and the generally poor product that the Pro12 has been over the years.

Good post exiled, but also can I add, we can tend to be very parochial in Wales, the artificial nature of the regions you speak of, it does carry some truth, although as time goes by it is getting less and less artificial as more people attach themselves to the nearest pro club, but if you put yourself in the Blues region, you potentially have massive support from the Rhondda valleys, which is where a lot of support for Cardiff City F.C comes from, but the people up there, their nearest pro rugby club used to be Pontypridd, and there is no way on earth, at this present time that a Pontypridd supporter would go and watch, what they see, as just another version of Cardiff RFC. It also does not help, when most of the fans from each region are standing on the terraces refusing to accept that they are now a region, and they staunchly keep calling themselves Cardiff, Swansea, Newport, Llanelli. But to be honest, you do not see as much of that going on now on the terraces of the teams from West Wales, but it is still rife in Cardiff and Newport. But my point still stands, there is too much rugby in Wales for the amount of people supporting it.

LD,

I don't get back home as much as I would like but I can't remember the last time I heard Newport chanted down at RP during a Dragons game.

Yes the media still call us Newport or Newport Gwent Dragons (which we are) but like I said I cant remember last time I heard it chanted on the terraces.

LordDowlais wrote:

The Saint wrote:Same old cliché's being regurgitated. There's never a reasonable debate with you LD and all this here just reiterates that.

Saint, why are you even on here ? All you do is give a jumped up opinion of your own views and rubbish the opinions of other people's views, seriously, you cannot be like this outside of cyberland, because if you did go around with that attitude you would swiftly become a human punch bag for people who have less patience than people like myself.

Says the one still crying over the Warriorszzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

As expected this article has added nothing new to the Welsh rugby debate. Thanks for boring us all.

LordDowlais wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:The difference in club numbers is 221 in Ireland 250 in Wales (no idea where you got 109 from - utter rubbish)

There are 312 clubs in Wales, and 4 regions, get your research correct. Also, I got the amount of clubs in Ireland from wiki. these are the clubs I got off wiki, if you can add the other 112 clubs feel free:-

There are 25 Rugby clubs in Connacht. About 60 in Ulster, and about 70 each in Munster and Leinster. So 221 sounds about right.

There are 52 clubs in the AIL (All Ireland League) AKA Ulster Bank League in 4 divisions. The top 2 divisions of this would be semi pro.

The rest of the (Junior) clubs play in various provincial competitions.

Before the professional era the Provincial teams would have been representative teams drawn from the best players in the senior clubs within that province and they would have played a couple of interpros a year, but not trained together outside of this.

Rugby has always been a minority sport in Ireland. Recently it has grown hugely but would still be behind Football (GAA) Hurling and Soccer in terms of support and playing numbers.

If you would like a list of them all you can go to http://www.irishrugby.ie/club/club_contacts.php

The Saint wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

The Saint wrote:Same old cliché's being regurgitated. There's never a reasonable debate with you LD and all this here just reiterates that.

Saint, why are you even on here ? All you do is give a jumped up opinion of your own views and rubbish the opinions of other people's views, seriously, you cannot be like this outside of cyberland, because if you did go around with that attitude you would swiftly become a human punch bag for people who have less patience than people like myself.

Says the one still crying over the Warriorszzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

As expected this article has added nothing new to the Welsh rugby debate. Thanks for boring us all.

Saint, stop being a complete and utter pr1ck.

Shifty wrote:I honestly think the league the regions play in is uninteresting, if you want interest then we either need a Welsh club structure or to join the English league, but the Pro 12 is a bloody awful product top to bottom.  

Sadly Welsh people aren't interested in Irish, Scottish, and Italian teams, you can dress it up any way you want but it doesnt alter the fact people just don't care.  The Welsh rugby season basically starts with and ends with the 6 Nations, while outside that it's about beating the English and kicking the crap into the next local village side.  Until we get back to that the regional game is dead.

Years ago the English teams offered the Welsh teams the chance to join their league, they offered us 5 places and we turned them down, saying we deserved more spaces.  Sadly on our own we can't afford even 5 professional teams.  

This is the attitude I find disappointing from some Welsh fans. Not saying it is right or wrong, but there seems no willingness to make the Pro12 any better or to work at it at all. Just complain and hope the English will ride in on their white horse and save you all.

The fact is that if the Pro12 broke up the English would be more likely to want the Irish provinces in their system rather than the Welsh regions.

Personally I would rather we ALL tried to make the pro 12 better than ignore it or moan about it. I am in no hurry to join the Nigels in the PRL as we (Irish, Welsh, Scotish) would all be dancing to the Master's tune rather than trying to create one of our own.

Perhaps that is a fundamental difference between the Irish and Welsh psyche.  We want to shape our own destiny (well OK not all of us) and the Welsh seem more content to led the English look after them.

I for one do not want to jump into bed with the English, but what you should realise is that the English and Welsh clubs have a lot of history with each other, especially the border clubs in England.

For me, I am starting to enjoy the Pro12, and so are a lot of others here in Wales, what is needed though is a higher standard of refereeing, I watch a lot of the English and French rugby and the refereeing in they're leagues is far and above the standard we are getting at the moment, this makes all the difference when you are trying to promote a product.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:.....

The fact is that if the Pro12 broke up the English would be more likely to want the Irish provinces in their system rather than the Welsh regions.

Right now quality wise yes but proximity (and ancient rivalry) count for more.
...

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:.....
Perhaps that is a fundamental difference between the Irish and Welsh psyche.  We want to shape our own destiny (well OK not all of us) and the Welsh seem more content to led the English look after them.

Traditionally the Welsh seem to be keener on just blaming the English for their ills rather than doing something about it

LordDowlais wrote:

The Saint wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

The Saint wrote:Same old cliché's being regurgitated. There's never a reasonable debate with you LD and all this here just reiterates that.

Saint, why are you even on here ? All you do is give a jumped up opinion of your own views and rubbish the opinions of other people's views, seriously, you cannot be like this outside of cyberland, because if you did go around with that attitude you would swiftly become a human punch bag for people who have less patience than people like myself.

Says the one still crying over the Warriorszzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

As expected this article has added nothing new to the Welsh rugby debate. Thanks for boring us all.

Saint, stop being a complete and utter pr1ck.

What was that you were saying earlier earlier about behaviour outside of cyberland?

BTW - i'm not trying to get under your skin, you genuniely haven't added anything to the on-going debate. As I expected this thread and comments is just now a regurgiation of all the myths and facts we've already heard.

Lets not rule out that it doesn't help that the regions themselves are poor, call them fair weather fans if you want, but I bet the majority of people who only have a passing interest in club rugby are not interested in watching dreadful performances every week and losing (especially if they can watch the majority of matches on TV for free).

Theres little surprise that the more successful teams tend to have bigger crowds

The Saint wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

The Saint wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

The Saint wrote:Same old cliché's being regurgitated. There's never a reasonable debate with you LD and all this here just reiterates that.

Saint, why are you even on here ? All you do is give a jumped up opinion of your own views and rubbish the opinions of other people's views, seriously, you cannot be like this outside of cyberland, because if you did go around with that attitude you would swiftly become a human punch bag for people who have less patience than people like myself.

Says the one still crying over the Warriorszzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

As expected this article has added nothing new to the Welsh rugby debate. Thanks for boring us all.

Saint, stop being a complete and utter pr1ck.

What was that you were saying earlier earlier about behaviour outside of cyberland?

BTW - i'm not trying to get under your skin, you genuniely haven't added anything to the on-going debate. As I expected this thread and comments is just now a regurgiation of all the myths and facts we've already heard.

Well if you think that way, then just do not come onto the thread.

lostinwales wrote:Traditionally the Welsh seem to be keener on just blaming the English for their ills rather than doing something about it

Stuff like this comming from you is getting a little boring now.

lostinwales wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:.....

The fact is that if the Pro12 broke up the English would be more likely to want the Irish provinces in their system rather than the Welsh regions.

Right now quality wise yes but proximity (and ancient rivalry) count for more.
...

"Money" and "Product" are the only thing they are interested in. Do you think "London" Wasps would have been sent to Coventry if tradition and "Ancient rivalry" were important

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:.....

The fact is that if the Pro12 broke up the English would be more likely to want the Irish provinces in their system rather than the Welsh regions.

Right now quality wise yes but proximity (and ancient rivalry) count for more.
...

"Money" and "Product" are the only thing they are interested in. Do you think "London" Wasps would have been sent to Coventry if tradition and "Ancient rivalry" were important

No but even though you can jump on a plane and get to Ireland fairly easily, its still more complicated than jumping in a car/coach, or on a train, and travelling, say, between the midlands and Swansea or Cardiff. Away fans count for something in the AP and you would expect significantly greater numbers of away fans in normal league games between Welsh and English teams than between English and Irish.

You are not taking into account the Irish provincial fans that live in England. There are quite a few. They would be a large part of the attraction for the PRL.

Anyway we are arguing about something that I, for one, hope doesn't come to pass.

It is all academic though. The opportunity for an England/Wales league has gone. I am sure there are circumstances where it might be a possibility again but it is unlikely in the short term - as in what English AP teams are going to vote to get dumped in the championship to let the regions in.

And yes there is always the Irish living in England, and the numbers would be significant, (Plenty of Welsh too.) I would take a little convincing that there would be enough to match the more local support readily available.

lostinwales wrote:what English AP teams are going to vote to get dumped in the championship to let the regions in.

That has always been the case, I just find it all the more baffling that guys like Alun Shifty and that Scarlets lad who was always starting the anti pro12 threads couldn't see it too.

We can put forward multiple reasons for the Regional rugby attendance in Wales.

But something isn't right when Connacht can grow to having an addendance in or around the same as the average regions.

So while Connacht have been able to grow as a brand in the same League, the regions have faultered or taken backward steps.

Personally I think it is just down to success, if a Regon were to get to a RCC final the attendance would get a massive boost.

Connacht pushing to make top 6 or even a play off spot in future years is seen as great for them and generates more intrest and a feel good factor, and hence attendance increases.

For the regions I think making the playoffs isn't seen as a great achievment,
Also the older Welsh fans of these teams (before the Celtic League) are used to seeing them being the best, being at the top of the league beating rivals regularly, winning a lot more than losing, they are used to success, so to then join the Celtic league and then to see their team losing alot more often or even being near the bottom of the table, they will go back to following the club team in the Welsh prem where they can see a winning team.

Second issue I think is the second level of Rugby. The Welsh Prem is kept at too high a level, I don't think the WRU can support the regions and the Welsh Prem at the levels desired. Personally I think funding should be redirected from the Welsh Prem to the Regions.

If we look at the Football in Wales example, there are two big teams, but to create the two big teams the level below that is a long way off, meaning the big clubs will have a far bigger catchment area, as fans want to see top level football.

The same really needs to occur in Rugby, the Welsh Prem's standard should be allowed to drop with the funding being redirected to the regions.

This isn't going to be popular and it is like asking the WRU clubs to be turkeys voting for christmas.

But can Wales with a smaller population than Ireland or Scotland really be expected to have regions that are equal to the Provinces, plus a Welsh national league that is many times better than the Irish or Scottish National league?

Kingshu wrote:

But can Wales with a smaller population than Ireland or Scotland really be expected to have regions that are equal to the Provinces, plus a Welsh national league that is many times better than the Irish or Scottish National league?

That's the nub of it really.

At least they don't have to compete with GAA though.

Kingshu wrote:Connacht pushing to make top 6 or even a play off spot in future years is seen as great for them and generates more intrest and a feel good factor, and hence attendance increases.

For the regions I think making the playoffs isn't seen as a great achievment,

Not making the play-off is seen as a failure, and failure to make the top table of Europe is seen as a full blown disaster.

What did you just call Cardiff Blues?