Rugby attendances in Wales - a reasonable debate

First topic message reminder :

Ok, after reading the Ospreys V Northampton match thread, I think a few things need to be explained, I am fed up of hearing that rugby is being killed by Cardiff and Swansea football clubs, these thoughts are usually from ill educated masses who now nothing of the culture that rugby has in Wales, they just see full stadiums for the only TWO professional football clubs in Wales and make their own minds up, and this is the fact that we need to get across.

Firstly, yes Cardiff F.C and Swansea F.C do have massive following's in and around their areas, but what people really need to think about is this, Swansea are west Wales and Cardiff are east Wales, in these two parts of Wales, they compete with nobody, they are the two stand alone entities that people from as far west as Pembroke dock, and as far east as Monmouth go to watch these two clubs. They compete with no one in the Welsh world of football, the only competition they have, is from Liverpool, Manchester, Arsenal and even those fans will go and watch the two Welsh clubs more often than not.

Now, secondly, if we divide the east and west if Wales up, you get FOUR professional rugby teams, people from Cardiff and the surrounding areas will support Blues, people from Gwent will support Dragons, then people from Swansea and the surrounding areas will support Ospreys and people from Llanelli and further west will support Scarlets. Add the support up for both regions in each of the east and the west and you will not be far off what the football teams in the same areas have.

Right, thirdly and this is a very important thirdly. In each and every town, village and city you will find one or two rugby clubs, for instance the Welsh premiership has a dozen clubs each getting on times up to a thousand spectators watching every week, then in the same towns you will get smaller clubs who will have a few hundred there watching week in week out, not to mention all the lower leagues, in my town alone there are about six rugby clubs, all of them get decent support. Our regions have to compete with the myriad of rugby clubs from within they're own regions, the football clubs do not have to compete with this sort of support.

The point I am trying to make with people is, that there is more than likely too much rugby in Wales to go around with the population of the country, I know of people who have family playing locally, they will go and watch their son, husband, farther play and not only that, they will help with the running of the club, they will make food in the clubhouse afterwards, they will organise events, now with so many people doing these things on a Saturday afternoon, how can they then be expected to spend more money and time on a Friday, Saturday, Sunday evening to go and watch their regions as well, especially when they are on the tele, and that is another thing, the rugby on BBC 2 Wales and S4C get massive viewing figures in Wales, and after listening to Roger Lewis, because of this, the money they get from the tele is the equivalent to getting an extra ten thousand people through the gates for each game.

Lastly, if we look at things rationally, when the national teams of both football and rugby have a game and all the fans go to watch and support, when the Welsh national football side has a match, you do not get the interest that the Welsh rugby team gets, this shows what happens when ALL the supporters of each sport get together for that one game, rugby will generate 70,000 people in a stadium and hundreds of thousands who will congregate into their local pubs and clubs, and fill their town centres or go down to the capital just for the atmosphere, the Welsh national football side just does not generate this kind of support, that is because, every fan of every rugby club in Wales equates to more people than every fan of every football club, so to summarise, rugby is as strong as it ever has been in Wales, there is just too much of it to go around.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Our regions have to compete with the myriad of rugby clubs from within they're own regions, the football clubs do not have to compete with this sort of support.

Do you make it up as you go along LD? My village, in the Vale, has both rugby and football clubs, but neither have ever been in competition with the Cardiff pro teams. Bet you that's the same across Cardiff, the Vale and the rest of Wales including the Vaaarhleys.

So what you are saying is then, people in your very privileged area, where money is no object, find the time to go and watch their local team and the Cardiff Blues ? Also, you should try visiting the people about 20 miles north to where you live, you might get a bit of a culture shock when you see the difference between the Vale of Glamorgan and Merthyr Tydfil.

For the region's I think it's simple (as alluded to by a couple of posters already).

Success on the field. When the Ospreys, Blues and Scarlets were qualifying for the 1/4s of the HC attendances were pretty good. A successful team will naturally draw in more fans.

Witness how the  Irish provinces harnessed support from fans of other sports in their European 'crusades'. I've sat among Munster and Leinster fans when Wasps played them in the HC. A fair few needed the laws and refereeing decisions explained to them during the game. It was obvious that rugby was not their main sport.

But that didn't matter to the provinces (or IRFU) so long as these 'new fans' bought the shirt, waved the flag and roared the team on. It was an excellent piece of  marketing by the provinces. But here's a big difference between the provinces and regions. The provinces have remained relatively successful and retained many of their new fans who were attracted in the noughties.

Wales does not have a monopoly on parochialism in rugby. The Irish are very keen on their sport and the GAA really fostered parochialism in sport. It has a hierarchy from the bottom up. Your village first, then town and then County.

It doesn't take much to add in a provincial layer to the club game in rugby for potential fans to get behind; and boy, did they!

LordDowlais wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Our regions have to compete with the myriad of rugby clubs from within they're own regions, the football clubs do not have to compete with this sort of support.

Do you make it up as you go along LD? My village, in the Vale, has both rugby and football clubs, but neither have ever been in competition with the Cardiff pro teams. Bet you that's the same across Cardiff, the Vale and the rest of Wales including the Vaaarhleys.

So what you are saying is then, people in your very privileged area, where money is no object, find the time to go and watch their local team and the Cardiff Blues ? Also, you should try visiting the people about 20 miles north to where you live, you might get a bit of a culture shock when you see the difference between the Vale of Glamorgan and Merthyr Tydfil.

I think he's saying that there are fans of both rugby and football everywhere in Wales. Some like to follow both while other prioritise one over the other (in my experience the ones who's first sport is football tend not to follow much rugby at all except RWC games). Merthyr isn't that much different, has its good and bad parts like everywhere else. I think I, like others, have started to miss the point you were trying to make....

Saint, the point I am trying to make is, that there is far too much rugby in Wales for the amount of people and wages to support, most people will watch their local village side, where it is cheaper, and then watch their region in the house or club on the tele, most people cannot be in Cefn Coed watching their village play until 4pm and then make it to Cardiff to watch their region at 5pm. There is not enough time OR money for people to do both.

Also, the Vale of Glamorgan is a lot different to Merthyr Tydfil, trust me.

Hound of Harrow wrote:For the region's I think it's simple (as alluded to by a couple of posters already).

Success on the field. When the Ospreys, Blues and Scarlets were qualifying for the 1/4s of the HC attendances were pretty good. A successful team will naturally draw in more fans.

Witness how the  Irish provinces harnessed support from fans of other sports in their European 'crusades'. I've sat among Munster and Leinster fans when Wasps played them in the HC. A fair few needed the laws and refereeing decisions explained to them during the game. It was obvious that rugby was not their main sport.

But that didn't matter to the provinces (or IRFU) so long as these 'new fans' bought the shirt, waved the flag and roared the team on. It was an excellent piece of  marketing by the provinces. But here's a big difference between the provinces and regions. The provinces have remained relatively successful and retained many of their new fans who were attracted in the noughties.

Wales does not have a monopoly on parochialism in rugby. The Irish are very keen on their sport and the GAA really fostered parochialism in sport. It has a hierarchy from the bottom up. Your village first, then town and then County.

It doesn't take much to add in a provincial layer to the club game in rugby for potential fans to get behind; and boy, did they!

There's a fair bit of sense in that post. Especially with Nu-Irish fans since the turn of the century. But as with most things rugby related - comparing Ireland with Wales is like comparing wallpaper and chocolate cake. Totally different scenarios, populations, geography, infrastructure, finances, systems etc.

What we may now begin to see is what welsh regional fans have been saying for years - the Welsh, Irish and Scottish need to change their domestic competitions to compete in Europe. If Wasps win by more than 7 this weekend, there'll be a few articles written in this vein.

And in the meantime - anybody seen the new French tv deal announced? The rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer - and those in the middle should be Poopie themselves.

LordDowlais wrote:Saint, the point I am trying to make is, that there is far too much rugby in Wales for the amount of people and wages to support, most people will watch their local village side, where it is cheaper, and then watch their region in the house or club on the tele, most people cannot be in Cefn Coed watching their village play until 4pm and then make it to Cardiff to watch their region at 5pm. There is not enough time OR money for people to do both.

Also, the Vale of Glamorgan is a lot different to Merthyr Tydfil, trust me.

Not sure if there's too much rugby... but there sure is a lot of rugby packed closely together in the south. Spread more of the game into North Wales mun. You're correct in what you are saying, but just remember it isn't the case for every single rugby fan, though after some years it does have an effect on the pro game in Wales. There are ways to get around this. Pause the amateur and semi-pro game at certain points (they usually do for international games in the 6 Nations); embrace the people and stick up a border so that they can be empowered into supporting one team (kind of what the regions tried to do I guess). I guess we're out of options. We need more money.

Chunky Norwich wrote:comparing Ireland with Wales is like comparing wallpaper and chocolate cake. Totally different scenarios, populations, geography, infrastructure, finances, systems etc.

Absolutely agree. But there is always something you can learn from looking at how other people run their sport, and take some of the good bits that might apply.

Chunky Norwich wrote:
What we may now begin to see is what welsh regional fans have been saying for years - the Welsh, Irish and Scottish need to change their domestic competitions to compete in Europe.

That's fine, and no one is saying the Pro12 is perfect, but can you come up with a better REALISTIC option than trying to improve the comp rather than destroy it?

LordDowlais wrote:Saint, the point I am trying to make is, that there is far too much rugby in Wales for the amount of people and wages to support, most people will watch their local village side, where it is cheaper, and then watch their region in the house or club on the tele, most people cannot be in Cefn Coed watching their village play until 4pm and then make it to Cardiff to watch their region at 5pm. There is not enough time OR money for people to do both.

Also, the Vale of Glamorgan is a lot different to Merthyr Tydfil, trust me.

It's these sort of sweeping generalisations, highlighted above, that damage the points you make.  Most people watch their local side?  Firstly, where do you get this info?  A link to this would be good.  However, I would suggest that it is probably down to your own subjective experience.  And therefore not too accurate.  My own experience in Wales is that no-one watches their local side.  So that's the opposite to what you propose.  Out of all of my friends and family they only watch the Dragons.  None of them watch their local sides Caerleon, St Julian's, etc. (apart from when they walk the dog and glance across).  None of us even watch Newport RFC since regional rugby.  So this is at odds with your statement above.  

The truth of the matter, in my experience, is that some of my friends and families have stopped watching the Dragons for no other reason than they do not enjoy it like they used to.  There is no other team taking their support away, they've not gone to soccer, Caerleon RFC are not competing with them for attendance.  It's probably just the time in our lives (kids, etc.) when some leisure time pursuits are shelved.  I expect our numbers will grow when our kids are big enough to come with us.

But back to the main discussion - success.  I completely agree that success will breed attendance.  And I agree that this is why the Ospreys, for example, have seen a dip - they're less competitive and successful in Europe than in previous years.  But how do you get success?  Buy the best players - that would bankrupt the regions currently I think.  However, hopefully with the DCs we will see a bit more spare money for the regions to invest in better players.  It's a chicken and egg situation, of course.  You can't generate the big gate revenues and shirt sales until you've got a really talented, successful, exciting team to watch, and you often can't get that until you've got the money to buy it.  France managed it by having 'sugar daddies' buy the clubs and invest their money.  England to a certain extent too.  In Wales though, it's harder to attract rich businessmen to organistions which are not run as independently as clubs in France and England (just my opinion).  Who would want to buy the Dragons and pump millions in when the WRU is so involved?  So the answer to 'just become successful' is obviously not easy.  And this all comes down to this quasi-provincial mess we've got, IMO.  I feel the number of teams is right (4) given our player numbers, etc.  However, we're neither clubs nor union/national governing body controlled provinces.  So we get none of the obvious advantages of either, and all of the disadvantages!  

But yes, become successful, spark the imagination of the occasional fan, put on razzmatazz and a show to get the families in, and numbers will grow.  But what is the starting point?  Chick or egg?

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:comparing Ireland with Wales is like comparing wallpaper and chocolate cake. Totally different scenarios, populations, geography, infrastructure, finances, systems etc.

Absolutely agree. But there is always something you can learn from looking at how other people run their sport, and take some of the good bits that might apply.

If it applies yes. Not much does though.

Chunky Norwich wrote:
What we may now begin to see is what welsh regional fans have been saying for years - the Welsh, Irish and Scottish need to change their domestic competitions to compete in Europe.

That's fine, and no one is saying the Pro12 is perfect, but can you come up with a better REALISTIC option than trying to improve the comp rather than destroy it?

No. That's the point. It's past it's shelf life, and those teams in it will suffer more and more each season unless they fight for a British and Irish league.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No. That's the point. It's past it's shelf life, and those teams in it will suffer more and more each season unless they fight for a British and Irish league.

It may happen one day, but it would be very difficult to match up the aspirations of all concerned. I do not object in principle, Just that solving everyone's problems by creating even bigger ones may not be the right way to go.

The Saint wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Saint, the point I am trying to make is, that there is far too much rugby in Wales for the amount of people and wages to support, most people will watch their local village side, where it is cheaper, and then watch their region in the house or club on the tele, most people cannot be in Cefn Coed watching their village play until 4pm and then make it to Cardiff to watch their region at 5pm. There is not enough time OR money for people to do both.

Also, the Vale of Glamorgan is a lot different to Merthyr Tydfil, trust me.

Not sure if there's too much rugby... but there sure is a lot of rugby packed closely together in the south. Spread more of the game into North Wales mun. You're correct in what you are saying, but just remember it isn't the case for every single rugby fan, though after some years it does have an effect on the pro game in Wales. There are ways to get around this. Pause the amateur and semi-pro game at certain points (they usually do for international games in the 6 Nations); embrace the people and stick up a border so that they can be empowered into supporting one team (kind of what the regions tried to do I guess). I guess we're out of options. We need more money.

Saint, the thing we need to realise is this, in Wales there are about 3 million people, I will hazard a guess and say that about half of that population support rugby, now for me, and this is the big issue that people need to get their heads around, it is not about getting the people who already follow rugby in any guise or form to support the regions, it should be about the other half of people who do not support rugby, we need to turn the heads of the people who do not have a vested interest in sports, I doubt we will ever change the football fans, or the fans who support their local rugby sides like a religion, but there are people out there who do not care either way if Wales win at rugby or if their local village is playing, it's those fans we need to turn, we need to get them and their families to support the regions, and to do this, for me we need to be keeping the best players here, and sprinkling them with quality NWQ imports, not dross like we have had to put up with over the last few years.

Griff wrote:It's these sort of sweeping generalisations, highlighted above, that damage the points you make. Most people watch their local side? Firstly, where do you get this info?

Well for a start I have watched Merthyr rfc and I have gone along to watch Cefn Coed and Dowlais, I can for one tell you that Merthyr always get a few hundred at their games Cefn and Dowlais also have half the village out to watch them play, not so long ago there was a charity event for a very well remembered young man who used to do an awful lot for Cefn Coed RFC youth, and he sadly passed away on a rugby trip with Cefn Coed, there was a veterans day on the old rugby pitch and there must have been over a 1000 people there that day, all theses people were people from the local rugby clubs in and around Merthyr and it goes to show how many people who do actually support local rugby as opposed to the regions.

LordDowlais wrote:

Griff wrote:It's these sort of sweeping generalisations, highlighted above, that damage the points you make.  Most people watch their local side?  Firstly, where do you get this info?

Well for a start I have watched Merthyr rfc and I have gone along to watch Cefn Coed and Dowlais, I can for one tell you that Merthyr always get a few hundred at their games Cefn and Dowlais also have half the village out to watch them play, not so long ago there was a charity event for a very well remembered young man who used to do an awful lot for Cefn Coed RFC youth, and he sadly passed away on a rugby trip with Cefn Coed, there was a veterans day on the old rugby pitch and there must have been over a 1000 people there that day, all theses people were people from the local rugby clubs in and around Merthyr and it goes to show how many people who do actually support local rugby as opposed to the regions.

Lord, you said 'most people watch their local side' as an argument for the competing nature of club vs region, but you only give an example from you own experience. You can't speak on behalf of everyone in Wales or generalise your own experience. Either carry out some research yourself, use some secondary research, or don't pretend to know about the rugby viewing habits of the whole Welsh public - otherwise people will just say 'he's making it up'!

Just a note on the number of local rugby clubs, one of our club officers was at a RFU meeting at the start of the season and mentioned that two of our smaller (1 or 2 adult sides no juniors) clubs had folded and were dropping out of the league and was there anything the RFU could do.
They were told by the RFU types that we already had too many rugby clubs in our area so it wasn't an issue and we should be looking to scoop up any of the players who still wanted involvement in the game.
They were then told that in an ideal world the RFU would like to see a lot less clubs altogether and would rather have one club per area which ran everything from seniors through to youth and minis as it was easier for them to manage.

Just to strengthen my point to Griff, I was just talking to a long serving patron of Abertwsswg RFC, and I had only just left my desk after typing my reply, with Griffs words in mind I asked him how many people they get each week watching them, and he told me it was 300+, so that is over three hundred people who are not watching the Dragons every other week, so there you go Griff.

Irish Londoner, that is indeed a very sad state of affairs, the supporters of that club could now be lost for ever.

Griff wrote:Lord, you said 'most people watch their local side' as an argument for the competing nature of club vs region, but you only give an example from you own experience. You can't speak on behalf of everyone in Wales or generalise your own experience. Either carry out some research yourself, use some secondary research, or don't pretend to know about the rugby viewing habits of the whole Welsh public - otherwise people will just say 'he's making it up'!

Griff, just take a look at the internet yourself, check out the stats each club is getting, the top divisions in Wales have all the info you need, but from my own experience watching lower level rugby, I have witnessed things with my own eyes, and I will believe what I see thanks, also a very close friend of mine is a referee, he is allowed to ref Welsh Div one and downwards, and he tells me although some games are sparsely populated, on the whole most grounds have a few hundred watching spectators. It's up to you what you want to believe at the end of the day, but I will believe what I have personally witnessed thanks.

LordDowlais wrote:

Griff wrote:Lord, you said 'most people watch their local side' as an argument for the competing nature of club vs region, but you only give an example from you own experience. You can't speak on behalf of everyone in Wales or generalise your own experience. Either carry out some research yourself, use some secondary research, or don't pretend to know about the rugby viewing habits of the whole Welsh public - otherwise people will just say 'he's making it up'!

Griff, just take a look at the internet yourself, check out the stats each club is getting, the top divisions in Wales have all the info you need, but from my own experience watching lower level rugby, I have witnessed things with my own eyes, and I will believe what I see thanks, also a very close friend of mine is a referee, he is allowed to ref Welsh Div one and downwards, and he tells me although some games are sparsely populated, on the whole most grounds have a few hundred watching spectators. It's up to you what you want to believe at the end of the day, but I will believe what I have personally witnessed thanks.

You don't get it do you. 'Most people watch their local club'. This just isn't true for everyone. My local club gets perhaps 20 spectators. Where's the rest of the population of the area? The simple fact is that some people watch their local club, but not 'most'.

Griff wrote:You don't get it do you. 'Most people watch their local club'. This just isn't true for everyone. My local club gets perhaps 20 spectators. Where's the rest of the population of the area? The simple fact is that some people watch their local club, but not 'most'.

I bet it is more than twenty Griff, come on, how many age grades does your local side have ? There must be more that 20 parents watching the youth sides alone.

If your local side has kids, youth, and a senoir side, there would be a lot more than twenty people invlolved, the fact that you have 15 players on the pitch adds 15 people to your twenty watching mun.

LordDowlais wrote:

Griff wrote:You don't get it do you. 'Most people watch their local club'. This just isn't true for everyone. My local club gets perhaps 20 spectators. Where's the rest of the population of the area? The simple fact is that some people watch their local club, but not 'most'.

I bet it is more than twenty Griff, come on, how many age grades does your local side have ? There must be more that 20 parents watching the youth sides alone.

If your local side has kids, youth, and a senoir side, there would be a lot more than twenty people invlolved, the fact that you have 15 players on the pitch adds 15 people to your twenty watching mun.

What are you wittering on about Lord? They don't all have to 'bring a friend'. It's not a wedding with where you bring a +1!

Griff wrote:What are you wittering on about Lord? They don't all have to 'bring a friend'. It's not a wedding with where you bring a +1!

I am not withering on about anything, I am talking sense, does your local club have age grade rugby ? Does it have a second side ?

The people invlolved in these clubs amount to quite a few, I know I have done this sort of thing myself, I used to help out with Glyncoch youth. These people all add up, how does you local club even survive if they only have 20 people their minus players every week ?

Lord, you said earlier that half of the people in wales are interested in rugby, so we need to get the other half interested. Then you said that 'most' watch their local side (I take it you mean 'most' of those who actually like rugby?). My local town is 8,000 population. If 50% like rugby, as you say then that's 4,000. if 'most' watch their local side then we should be getting over 2,000 fans per game. Which is utter cobblers as we struggle to get 1% of that.

Griff, I watch my local team, Ogmore Vale, when I can, there is normally around about 100 for most games, a few months ago for the local derby against Nantymoel, around the ground it was about 3 or 4 deep, there was over a thousand there that day, it was a fantastic day apart from what happened on the pitch, I spoke to a number as I was wearing some of my Ospreys gear, they wondered if I went, when I told them I did, they said why would I when you can watch it on the box, and that is one of the problems.

Wayne, I completely agree that some people would prefer to watch it on the box. I'm one of them lately. I had a season ticket with the Dragons for 9 years but only go to the odd game now (mainly due to kids to be honest).

My argument is with the statement 'most people watch their local club'. I just don't think LordDowlais has done the research needed to allow him to jump to that conclusion. Plus, it certainly does not ring true in my experience. We all know some diehard fans who would watch Aberwhatsit 7th's versus themselves, but I bet we could all name more people who do not watch local rugby.

Griff wrote:Wayne, I completely agree that some people would prefer to watch it on the box.  I'm one of them lately.  I had a season ticket with the Dragons for 9 years but only go to the odd game now (mainly due to kids to be honest).

My argument is with the statement 'most people watch their local club'.  I just don't think LordDowlais has done the research needed to allow him to jump to that conclusion.  Plus, it certainly does not ring true in my experience.  We all know some diehard fans who would watch Aberwhatsit 7th's versus themselves, but I bet we could all name more people who do not watch local rugby.  

Yes, I agree he did go over the top a bit, but for the right game, some of the locals would come out, the thing that gets me, we (Ospreys) are exceeding our and most others expectations this season, and for us to be still getting crowds in the 7000 area is very dissapointing, we should be having more.

I find it hard to believe anything Dowlais says on here, after the Newport lie he told.

LordDowlais wrote:

Saint, the thing we need to realise is this, in Wales there are about 3 million people, I will hazard a guess and say that about half of that population support rugby, now for me, and this is the big issue that people need to get their heads around, it is not about getting the people who already follow rugby in any guise or form to support the regions, it should be about the other half of people who do not support rugby, we need to turn the heads of the people who do not have a vested interest in sports, I doubt we will ever change the football fans, or the fans who support their local rugby sides like a religion, but there are people out there who do not care either way if Wales win at rugby or if their local village is playing, it's those fans we need to turn, we need to get them and their families to support the regions, and to do this, for me we need to be keeping the best players here, and sprinkling them with quality NWQ imports, not dross like we have had to put up with over the last few years.

I'd say it's pretty doubtful that half the population 'support' rugby in the context of the word you and I understand it as. Though I'm not going to claim it as fact, I simply don't know. I can only comment with what I can see and what I've grown up with.

We do need to grow the game yes, but your comment on NWQ imports seems to contradict what you've been saying on that subject for months.

Griff wrote:Wayne, I completely agree that some people would prefer to watch it on the box.  I'm one of them lately.  I had a season ticket with the Dragons for 9 years but only go to the odd game now (mainly due to kids to be honest).

My argument is with the statement 'most people watch their local club'.  I just don't think LordDowlais has done the research needed to allow him to jump to that conclusion.  Plus, it certainly does not ring true in my experience.  We all know some diehard fans who would watch Aberwhatsit 7th's versus themselves, but I bet we could all name more people who do not watch local rugby.  

Griff, why won't you answer any of my questions ?

Does your local side have age grade rugby ?

Does your local side have a second team ?

Griff wrote:Lord, you said earlier that half of the people in wales are interested in rugby, so we need to get the other half interested.  Then you said that 'most' watch their local side (I take it you mean 'most' of those who actually like rugby?).  My local town is 8,000 population.  If 50% like rugby, as you say then that's 4,000.  if 'most' watch their local side then we should be getting over 2,000 fans per game.  Which is utter cobblers as we struggle to get 1% of that.

How many rugby teams are there in your town ?

Also I said I was taking a guess about how many people in Wales support rugby, we would never know the true figure, it is all the more likely to be less.

Risca Rev wrote:I find it hard to believe anything Dowlais says on here, after the Newport lie he told.

It's not a lie though is it, I was only arguing this fact with you a few months back about what the regions are for, and I have been to Rodney parade where people still see Dragons as Newport. So why don't you stop telling lies.

wayne wrote:Griff, I watch my local team, Ogmore Vale, when I can, there is normally around about 100 for most games, a few months ago for the local derby against Nantymoel, around the ground it was about 3 or 4 deep, there was over a thousand there that day, it was a fantastic day apart from what happened on the pitch, I spoke to a number as I was wearing some of my Ospreys gear, they wondered if I went, when I told them I did, they said why would I when you can watch it on the box, and that is one of the problems.  

Well there you go then, if Ogmore Vale are getting 100 people there per week that's 100 Ospreys are not getting, add that up with teams like Neath, Glynneath, Pontardawe, Pyle, and so on all these fans and participating players and helpers, coaches, that are involved, that is a lot of people who are not watching their region FFS.

"a reasonable debate"

Dowlais

LordDowlais wrote:

wayne wrote:Griff, I watch my local team, Ogmore Vale, when I can, there is normally around about 100 for most games, a few months ago for the local derby against Nantymoel, around the ground it was about 3 or 4 deep, there was over a thousand there that day, it was a fantastic day apart from what happened on the pitch, I spoke to a number as I was wearing some of my Ospreys gear, they wondered if I went, when I told them I did, they said why would I when you can watch it on the box, and that is one of the problems.  

Well there you go then, if Ogmore Vale are getting 100 people there per week that's 100 Ospreys are not getting, add that up with teams like Neath, Glynneath, Pontardawe, Pyle, and so on all these fans and participating players and helpers, coaches, that are involved, that is a lot of people who are not watching their region FFS.

You will never, ever get a situation where the region/province/franchise of any country takes 100% support away from club rugby leaving 0 people to watch the game. I really don't get your point. It's like saying thay Manchester United should get all of the support in Greater Manchester and no-one should go to Oldham, Stockport, etc. Why can't people just choose a club. There's enough people around.

I'm sure people go and watch Garryown in Limerick, for example, without being season ticket holders at Munster. Yet Munster still manage to grow and get the big attendances we're trying to replicate. The irish have had a recession too. They've got other competing sports too (more than us). But they've managed it. I'm not talking about copying their model. But also they show that with similar socioeconomic circumstances the region/province can still be big even if others choose to watch other sports. NZ regions are the same too - plenty will watch the local club. Not all will attend the franchise. The population is about them as as ours. Yet the S15 attendances are much better (see wiki).

And to answer your question: I wasn't answering you because you didn't believe me about my local team getting around 20 fans! To answer the question though: yes there's age grade and yes there is a 2nds, if they can get enough players and if they can find someone to play.

There you go then Griff, there's your 20 people watching your local team quote rubbished, so what you are saying is, between the kids, youth seconds and firsts there are only 20 people watching ? That's rubbish, there will be more than twenty people running and organising everything between everything.

LordDowlais wrote:

wayne wrote:Griff, I watch my local team, Ogmore Vale, when I can, there is normally around about 100 for most games, a few months ago for the local derby against Nantymoel, around the ground it was about 3 or 4 deep, there was over a thousand there that day, it was a fantastic day apart from what happened on the pitch, I spoke to a number as I was wearing some of my Ospreys gear, they wondered if I went, when I told them I did, they said why would I when you can watch it on the box, and that is one of the problems.  

Well there you go then, if Ogmore Vale are getting 100 people there per week that's 100 Ospreys are not getting, add that up with teams like Neath, Glynneath, Pontardawe, Pyle, and so on all these fans and participating players and helpers, coaches, that are involved, that is a lot of people who are not watching their region FFS.

Lord you said half the people, there are more than that number in my street alone, there are 20 streets here of that size, Lord that number will also include away supporters and committee of both teams, plus relatives of players, so why would they go to support the Ospreys or any other team, it is much more complex than one reason for their non attendance.

There are plenty of people who support/play for their local team in England and yet support a pro-team who they go watch whenever they can. A lot of guys on here do it.

Wayne, you know your area better than me, how many clubs are there in your area ? Now, how many clubs are then in Ospraylia ? That's who Ospreys are competing with for support.

LordDowlais wrote:There you go then Griff, there's your 20 people watching your local team quote rubbished, so what you are saying is, between the kids, youth seconds and firsts there are only 20 people watching ? That's rubbish, there will be more than twenty people running and organising everything between everything.

They don't play at the same time on the same pitch do they?! Seriously, have you ever been to a game of rugby??? When I go down to the pitch (council pitches with people walking dogs, kids flying kites, kids soccer taking place) I can tell you that during the seniors game there are approx 20 people there in support. You can't count the physics and coaches. They're not supporters as such. And you can't count the youth team as they're not there. Yes, if your add up all the teams separately then the fans will be over 20, but that's like saying that the Dragons have a much bigger corwd if you add up academy attendances and regional A games.

LordDowlais wrote:Wayne, you know your area better than me, how many clubs are there in your area ? Now, how many clubs are then in Ospraylia ? That's who Ospreys are competing with for support.

No different to any other team competing in europe. They all compete with other clubs, other sports, other hobbies and past times that might stop people from supporting them. But on the whole France, England, Ireland, NZ, Aus, SA all pull in much better crowds than us. So competing interests is not the reason for lower attendances in wales.

Yes Griff, but that's still competition for the region, and this is why I feel like I am banging my head against a wall with you on this, people cannot find the time and/or money to commit to their local sides and their region, people will make a choice, some will chose the region, some will chose their local club, and the regions are in direct competition from the clubs within their region. How many people are watching Cross Keys or Ebbw Vale instead if Dragons ?

Griff wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Wayne, you know your area better than me, how many clubs are there in your area ? Now, how many clubs are then in Ospraylia ? That's who Ospreys are competing with for support.

No different to any other team competing in europe. They all compete with other clubs, other sports, other hobbies and past times that might stop people from supporting them. But on the whole France, England, Ireland, NZ, Aus, SA all pull in much better crowds than us. So competing interests is not the reason for lower attendances in wales.

No they do not, the ITM cup runs at different times to the super 14 as does the Currie cup and so on, they play on different dates, not on the same weekends.

LordDowlais wrote:Wayne, you know your area better than me, how many clubs are there in your area ? Now, how many clubs are then in Ospraylia ? That's who Ospreys are competing with for support.

Lord there are 2 in this valley, Ogmore Vale and Nantymoel, in the next is Pontycymmer, who are really struggling for numbers, their last 2 games have been postponed, don't know why, they couldn't play a couple of games at the beginning of the season as they couldn't raise teams. Blaengarw also in that valley has folded because of lack of numbers, there is only one junior section in the 2 valleys Valley Ravens, not sure what age groups are playing.
Lord, when Wales will be playing in the 6N the 2 pubs and Rugby club will be heaving, that's not including the Pubs of Bridgend and Cardiff as well as the 2 buses that are run by the Rugby Club that are going to the game, they will not put themselves out to travel to support the Ospreys when the game is televised, it is a complex situation.

Yes Wayne but that kind of strengthens my point, when Wales play ALL the rugby fans get together to support ONE team, that is why clubs are busting, and Wales do not play every week, all the clubs in each region play every week, let's look at your region, how many people watch Bridgend, Neath, Swansea, not including all the other clubs, I don't know, let's say there are about thirty clubs altogether in Ospreys region, not including Ospreys, if we average the people involved with all these clubs, both supporting and playing and organising and running the show, then let's just say there are 100 people per club, that is 3000 people who are not watching the Ospreys, what is there that is hard to understand about all this ? For me the regions are doing well to get the crowds they are getting, they have fierce competition from other clubs in Wales, there is just too much rugby and not enough people or money in Wales to go around.

LordDowlais wrote:Yes Wayne but that kind of strengthens my point, when Wales play ALL the rugby fans get together to support ONE team, that is why clubs are busting, and Wales do not play every week, all the clubs in each region play every week, let's look at your region, how many people watch Bridgend, Neath, Swansea, not including all the other clubs, I don't know, let's say there are about thirty clubs altogether in Ospreys region, not including Ospreys, if we average the people involved with all these clubs, both supporting and playing and organising and running the show, then let's just say there are 100 people per club, that is 3000 people who are not watching the Ospreys, what is there that is hard to understand about all this ? For me the regions are doing well to get the crowds they are getting, they have fierce competition from other clubs in Wales, there is just too much rugby and not enough people or money in Wales to go around.

So how do Leinster manage it? It has clubs to compete with.
What about Munster? What about Ulster? What about every English Premiership team? Your turn to stop avoiding the questions. All pro teams have other lower level club sides to compete with. What makes Wales any different? You try to make out that we're in some way unique but that is just bullsh*t.

LordDowlais wrote:Yes Wayne but that kind of strengthens my point, when Wales play ALL the rugby fans get together to support ONE team, that is why clubs are busting, and Wales do not play every week, all the clubs in each region play every week, let's look at your region, how many people watch Bridgend, Neath, Swansea, not including all the other clubs, I don't know, let's say there are about thirty clubs altogether in Ospreys region, not including Ospreys, if we average the people involved with all these clubs, both supporting and playing and organising and running the show, then let's just say there are 100 people per club, that is 3000 people who are not watching the Ospreys, what is there that is hard to understand about all this ? For me the regions are doing well to get the crowds they are getting, they have fierce competition from other clubs in Wales, there is just too much rugby and not enough people or money in Wales to go around.

Lord, there are or were 77 clubs in Ospreylia a couple of seasons ago, any Saturday fixture is out of the question for these people, they are as I've already said, affiliated to said club in one way or another, the Friday or Sunday games are 99% televised, they will not go.
About 5 or 6 years ago at our more potent times we were averaging around 10,000, even though we were under achieving in some peoples eyes, we had these supposed superstars, I can remember a Q&A session with Blyth and Hore and they said they budgeted in the early years for such a crowd, it wasn't there for most of our existence, were we getting those crowds because of our relative success, the stars or whatever.

Griff wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Yes Wayne but that kind of strengthens my point, when Wales play ALL the rugby fans get together to support ONE team, that is why clubs are busting, and Wales do not play every week, all the clubs in each region play every week, let's look at your region, how many people watch Bridgend, Neath, Swansea, not including all the other clubs, I don't know, let's say there are about thirty clubs altogether in Ospreys region, not including Ospreys, if we average the people involved with all these clubs, both supporting and playing and organising and running the show, then let's just say there are 100 people per club, that is 3000 people who are not watching the Ospreys, what is there that is hard to understand about all this ? For me the regions are doing well to get the crowds they are getting, they have fierce competition from other clubs in Wales, there is just too much rugby and not enough people or money in Wales to go around.

So how do Leinster manage it? It has clubs to compete with.
What about Munster? What about Ulster? What about every English Premiership team? Your turn to stop avoiding the questions. All pro teams have other lower level club sides to compete with. What makes Wales any different? You try to make out that we're in some way unique but that is just bullsh*t.

It's you who is talking bull, firstly there are nowhere near as much clubs in Ireland than there is in Wales, also, and here's where you look clueless, you do realise that there are more people in Ireland than there is in Wales don't you ?

wayne wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Yes Wayne but that kind of strengthens my point, when Wales play ALL the rugby fans get together to support ONE team, that is why clubs are busting, and Wales do not play every week, all the clubs in each region play every week, let's look at your region, how many people watch Bridgend, Neath, Swansea, not including all the other clubs, I don't know, let's say there are about thirty clubs altogether in Ospreys region, not including Ospreys, if we average the people involved with all these clubs, both supporting and playing and organising and running the show, then let's just say there are 100 people per club, that is 3000 people who are not watching the Ospreys, what is there that is hard to understand about all this ? For me the regions are doing well to get the crowds they are getting, they have fierce competition from other clubs in Wales, there is just too much rugby and not enough people or money in Wales to go around.

Lord, there are or were 77 clubs in Ospreylia a couple of seasons ago, any Saturday fixture is out of the question for these people, they are as I've already said, affiliated to said club in one way or another, the Friday or Sunday games are 99% televised, they will not go.
About 5 or 6 years ago at our more potent times we were averaging around 10,000, even though we were under achieving in some peoples eyes, we had these supposed superstars, I can remember a Q&A session with Blyth and Hore and they said they budgeted in the early years for such a crowd, it wasn't there for most of our existence, were we getting those crowds because of our relative success, the stars or whatever.    

Yes I agree, the fans did turn out to watch the galacticos, but they are not the fans who are watching or taking part in whatever way with their local teams, those fans are still doing what they always have done. The fans that need targeting are the fair weather fans that came to watch the superstars, and slowly but surely with this new peace, I think those fans will return, but at the moment the regions are doing well to get the crowds they are getting when you consider what they are up against.

And there you go, there are 77 clubs in Ospreylia, just take into account how many fans they are taking away from Ospreys, that's 77 clubs in direct competition with Ospreys, and people wonder why they struggle to get ten thousand fans per game.

LordDowlais wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Our regions have to compete with the myriad of rugby clubs from within they're own regions, the football clubs do not have to compete with this sort of support.

Do you make it up as you go along LD? My village, in the Vale, has both rugby and football clubs, but neither have ever been in competition with the Cardiff pro teams. Bet you that's the same across Cardiff, the Vale and the rest of Wales including the Vaaarhleys.

So what you are saying is then, people in your very privileged area, where money is no object, find the time to go and watch their local team and the Cardiff Blues ? Also, you should try visiting the people about 20 miles north to where you live, you might get a bit of a culture shock when you see the difference between the Vale of Glamorgan and Merthyr Tydfil.

D'you have a chip on your shoulder LD? Think i'll call you Screaming Lord Dowlais from now on.
For starters, we're not all loaded down our way and i'm sure a food bank opened in my village last year. Also it's free to watch the local team as there's no stand, terracing or even a boundary to speak of. Just rugby posts and pitch markings. Plenty of dogs**t however and i'm quite familiar with Merthyr btw. Dowlais too. Nearly moved there once upon a time.
To add, are you aware than many rugby clubs in Wales often receive free tickets for regional games?

Nope, no chip mate, I quite now what my own town is like, and it have done a lot of work in the Vale of Glamorgan, it's a beautiful part of Wales, but to suggest it is anything like Merthyr is very wide of the mark. Also, the regions can give out as much free tickets as they like, but people cannot be in two places at once, and neither can they afford to spend the added extras that go along with supporting your region.