Rugby attendances in Wales - a reasonable debate

First topic message reminder :

Ok, after reading the Ospreys V Northampton match thread, I think a few things need to be explained, I am fed up of hearing that rugby is being killed by Cardiff and Swansea football clubs, these thoughts are usually from ill educated masses who now nothing of the culture that rugby has in Wales, they just see full stadiums for the only TWO professional football clubs in Wales and make their own minds up, and this is the fact that we need to get across.

Firstly, yes Cardiff F.C and Swansea F.C do have massive following's in and around their areas, but what people really need to think about is this, Swansea are west Wales and Cardiff are east Wales, in these two parts of Wales, they compete with nobody, they are the two stand alone entities that people from as far west as Pembroke dock, and as far east as Monmouth go to watch these two clubs. They compete with no one in the Welsh world of football, the only competition they have, is from Liverpool, Manchester, Arsenal and even those fans will go and watch the two Welsh clubs more often than not.

Now, secondly, if we divide the east and west if Wales up, you get FOUR professional rugby teams, people from Cardiff and the surrounding areas will support Blues, people from Gwent will support Dragons, then people from Swansea and the surrounding areas will support Ospreys and people from Llanelli and further west will support Scarlets. Add the support up for both regions in each of the east and the west and you will not be far off what the football teams in the same areas have.

Right, thirdly and this is a very important thirdly. In each and every town, village and city you will find one or two rugby clubs, for instance the Welsh premiership has a dozen clubs each getting on times up to a thousand spectators watching every week, then in the same towns you will get smaller clubs who will have a few hundred there watching week in week out, not to mention all the lower leagues, in my town alone there are about six rugby clubs, all of them get decent support. Our regions have to compete with the myriad of rugby clubs from within they're own regions, the football clubs do not have to compete with this sort of support.

The point I am trying to make with people is, that there is more than likely too much rugby in Wales to go around with the population of the country, I know of people who have family playing locally, they will go and watch their son, husband, farther play and not only that, they will help with the running of the club, they will make food in the clubhouse afterwards, they will organise events, now with so many people doing these things on a Saturday afternoon, how can they then be expected to spend more money and time on a Friday, Saturday, Sunday evening to go and watch their regions as well, especially when they are on the tele, and that is another thing, the rugby on BBC 2 Wales and S4C get massive viewing figures in Wales, and after listening to Roger Lewis, because of this, the money they get from the tele is the equivalent to getting an extra ten thousand people through the gates for each game.

Lastly, if we look at things rationally, when the national teams of both football and rugby have a game and all the fans go to watch and support, when the Welsh national football side has a match, you do not get the interest that the Welsh rugby team gets, this shows what happens when ALL the supporters of each sport get together for that one game, rugby will generate 70,000 people in a stadium and hundreds of thousands who will congregate into their local pubs and clubs, and fill their town centres or go down to the capital just for the atmosphere, the Welsh national football side just does not generate this kind of support, that is because, every fan of every rugby club in Wales equates to more people than every fan of every football club, so to summarise, rugby is as strong as it ever has been in Wales, there is just too much of it to go around.

LordDowlais wrote:

Griff wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Yes Wayne but that kind of strengthens my point, when Wales play ALL the rugby fans get together to support ONE team, that is why clubs are busting, and Wales do not play every week, all the clubs in each region play every week, let's look at your region, how many people watch Bridgend, Neath, Swansea, not including all the other clubs, I don't know, let's say there are about thirty clubs altogether in Ospreys region, not including Ospreys, if we average the people involved with all these clubs, both supporting and playing and organising and running the show, then let's just say there are 100 people per club, that is 3000 people who are not watching the Ospreys, what is there that is hard to understand about all this ? For me the regions are doing well to get the crowds they are getting, they have fierce competition from other clubs in Wales, there is just too much rugby and not enough people or money in Wales to go around.

So how do Leinster manage it? It has clubs to compete with.
What about Munster? What about Ulster? What about every English Premiership team? Your turn to stop avoiding the questions. All pro teams have other lower level club sides to compete with. What makes Wales any different? You try to make out that we're in some way unique but that is just bullsh*t.

It's you who is talking bull, firstly there are nowhere near as much clubs in Ireland than there is in Wales, also, and here's where you look clueless, you do realise that there are more people in Ireland than there is in Wales don't you ?

Now you're resorting to insults? I think you've revealed the true LordDowlais here. You're a bitter, bitter man/woman.

In terms of your post, which you say points to me being 'clueless': Population, as has been said countless times, doesn't seem to correlate to attendance. Glasgow and Edinburgh have bigger populations than our regions yet we get bigger crowds. Explain that. Exeter, with a much smaller population than Cardiff get bigger crowds than the Blues. The list goes on. It's a decent enough theory, but there are just too many examples of where it does not hold water.

How many clubs do Exeter have to compete with ? Also, I called you clueless because you said I was talking bullsh1t, Glasgow and Edinburgh have two or more top flight football teams in the city to compete with, Scotland is massively football, so that argument does not hold water either, as stated previous, Ospreys have 77 other rugby clubs in direct competition with them, if you ask me, Ospreys do well to get the support they do when you consider what they are up against.

LordDowlais wrote:Nope, no chip mate, I quite now what my own town is like, and it have done a lot of work in the Vale of Glamorgan, it's a beautiful part of Wales, but to suggest it is anything like Merthyr is very wide of the mark. Also, the regions can give out as much free tickets as they like, but people cannot be in two places at once, and neither can they afford to spend the added extras that go along with supporting your region.

Good point Cardiff Dave makes. My local club is free to watch too. And I'm sure you know, as an avid regional fan, that most regional games are Friday/Saturday evening or Sunday. Very rarely would the Dragons play at 3pm on a Saturday when my local club plays. So there's no money conflicts there. No 'two places at once' conflicts either (or at least very few). Must be something else then...

LordDowlais wrote:How many clubs do Exeter have to compete with ? Also, I called you clueless because you said I was talking bullsh1t, Glasgow and Edinburgh have two or more top flight football teams in the city to compete with, Scotland is massively football, so that argument does not hold water either, as stated previous, Ospreys have 77 other rugby clubs in direct competition with them, if you ask me, Ospreys do well to get the support they do when you consider what they are up against.

It depends how you define Exeter's region. As the only pro team in that 'Deep South West' area then you'd have to include all the teams in Devon, Cornwall and Dorset if it's to be a fair comparison with Ospreylia. So they probably have more than 77 teams in those 3 counties.

LordDowlais wrote:Nope, no chip mate, I quite now what my own town is like, and it have done a lot of work in the Vale of Glamorgan, it's a beautiful part of Wales, but to suggest it is anything like Merthyr is very wide of the mark. Also, the regions can give out as much free tickets as they like, but people cannot be in two places at once, and neither can they afford to spend the added extras that go along with supporting your region.

What are you on about now? I never suggested the Vale was like Merthyr.
Also those club members who get hold of the freebies, can follow both their local side and region without the need to be in 2 places at once as the respective matches usually ko at different days/times.

LordDowlais wrote:And there you go, there are 77 clubs in Ospreylia, just take into account how many fans they are taking away from Ospreys, that's 77 clubs in direct competition with Ospreys, and people wonder why they struggle to get ten thousand fans per game.

Lord, when we were getting crowds we were reaching the Q/F of HC and were in the top reaches of the Magners or whatever it was called, with the so called superstars, we for the past 3 or 4 years have done neither.
Leinster in 2004/5 season before they had relative success in said League had a TOTAL Celtic League attendance of 43,846 at an average of 4,384 per game, the following season they had a total of 58,138 after relative success of IIRC a HC QF appearance with I'm sure you can work out an average of 5,814 per game, that season they reached the SF of the HC and their attendances increased, when and only when we have that kind of success and less games televised, will we see a substantial increase in our figures.
It will have NOTHING TO DO with competition from other clubs or sports within Ospreylia or Wales.

Yep, agree with Wayne. The one single thing that seems to grow the crowds is success. Leinster is a great example. Cardiff City football too. Where were the big crowds at Ninian when they were stuggling? Population was the same, rugby was still competing with them, local people were still poor and struggling with decline in Welsh industry, etc. but miraculously they got a big investor, won some leagues, got promoted and WHAM! bigger crowds turned out.

OMG, I am banging my head against a wall here, if the regions played every Friday night, or Sunday afternoon, you would have more of an argument, people see their weekend for what it is, people who go to watch, take part, play with their local sides on a weekend, then THAT is their weekend, most people cannot afford to cram a regional game in on the same weekend, free tickets or not, some people can afford it, but where would they get the time ? Don't you think it is a little rich for people on here to tell people that even though they watch their local side, you should ALSO go and watch your region as well ?

No other country in the 6N has the amount of rugby to population ratio as Wales has, and for me there in lies the issue, we should try and turn the heads of the people who are not watching any rugby, not turn the heads of people who are already watching rugby, rugby is alive and kicking in Wales, 77 clubs in Ospreylia alone is evidence of this, that many clubs in such a small area is too much, and that is the reality that our regions are competing with, I do see light at the end of the tunnel, this new agreement will see more of the internationals staying here, and that will bring back the fair weather fans.

Griff wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Nope, no chip mate, I quite now what my own town is like, and it have done a lot of work in the Vale of Glamorgan, it's a beautiful part of Wales, but to suggest it is anything like Merthyr is very wide of the mark. Also, the regions can give out as much free tickets as they like, but people cannot be in two places at once, and neither can they afford to spend the added extras that go along with supporting your region.

Good point Cardiff Dave makes. My local club is free to watch too. And I'm sure you know, as an avid regional fan, that most regional games are Friday/Saturday evening or Sunday. Very rarely would the Dragons play at 3pm on a Saturday when my local club plays. So there's no money conflicts there. No 'two places at once' conflicts either (or at least very few). Must be something else then...

Indeed and a mate of mine who follows his local club (coaches the kids too), regularly attends Cardiff Blues games too. Infact a whole bunch of them do, freebies or not.

Do you know what the attendances are in the Welsh Prem. Not the one off 5,000 derby games but average attendances.

All the regions are getting 7.5 - 9.5k on average ( I think that was 2013-14, sorry Dave I was wrong on Scarlets) that means about 16k a week show up to watch the regions.

In ireland the clubs have seen a drop in numbers attending but it would be less than the provinces have picked up.

We often hear how much people still watch the prem but if you take their average would any be above 2k. We always hear about the great attendances that use to take place but they were one offs not every week.

Newport RFC attendances are very low. Looking at this season the biggest I could find at RP was the derby against EV - 850 people. Other attendances are around 650. Carmarthen Quins was 300.

http://www.blackandambers.co.uk/Matches/FixturesAndResultsIn

Ok, let's try and some maths, the population of Wales is about three to three and a half million, I will concede with what others are saying on here that football is the highest supporting sport in Wales, we will never know what the exact figures are unless we ask every man, woman and child, but let us assume that a third of the country support rugby, so that is about one to one and a bit million. If we divide all the clubs and the four regions with a million people, that works out that potentially there is just over three thousand people for each club, ok, the regions get about eight thousand, and the lowest is Griffs local team who only get twenty, so for me the extra supporters the regions are getting are the ones that are not watching Teams like Griffs local side, so where do you all suggest we go from there ?

Griff wrote:Newport RFC attendances are very low. Looking at this season the biggest I could find at RP was the derby against EV - 850 people. Other attendances are around 650. Carmarthen Quins was 300.

http://www.blackandambers.co.uk/Matches/FixturesAndResultsIn

That's 300 plus people who potentially are not watching Dragons.

LD, I don't want to labour the point too much but I've just looked at the league structure for Devon (the country including Exeter). In this county alone there are 9 leagues, or just over 100 clubs. Exeter would probably count their catchment as Cornwall and Dorset too so they have way more competing clubs than Ospreys. And the English Premiership tend to play their games around 3pm on Saturdays don't they? So more competing clubs, more conflict in kick off times, but still more support for the Pro team.

LordDowlais wrote:

Griff wrote:Newport RFC attendances are very low. Looking at this season the biggest I could find at RP was the derby against EV - 850 people. Other attendances are around 650. Carmarthen Quins was 300.

http://www.blackandambers.co.uk/Matches/FixturesAndResultsIn

That's 300 plus people who potentially are not watching Dragons.

BUT IT HAPPENS EVERYWHERE IN EVERY SPORT IN EVERY COUNTRY. WE ARE NOT UNIQUE!!

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Griff wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Nope, no chip mate, I quite now what my own town is like, and it have done a lot of work in the Vale of Glamorgan, it's a beautiful part of Wales, but to suggest it is anything like Merthyr is very wide of the mark. Also, the regions can give out as much free tickets as they like, but people cannot be in two places at once, and neither can they afford to spend the added extras that go along with supporting your region.

Good point Cardiff Dave makes. My local club is free to watch too. And I'm sure you know, as an avid regional fan, that most regional games are Friday/Saturday evening or Sunday. Very rarely would the Dragons play at 3pm on a Saturday when my local club plays. So there's no money conflicts there. No 'two places at once' conflicts either (or at least very few). Must be something else then...

Indeed and a mate of mine who follows his local club (coaches the kids too), regularly attends Cardiff Blues games too. Infact a whole bunch of them do, freebies or not.

I did not say everybody does not do it, I am glad they have the time and money to do it, also getting to the city centre from the Vale of Glamorgan is a lot closer than coming down from Dowlais and back on Friday night or Saturday evening, especially when they have Dowlais RFC to think of.

LordDowlais wrote:

Griff wrote:Newport RFC attendances are very low. Looking at this season the biggest I could find at RP was the derby against EV - 850 people. Other attendances are around 650. Carmarthen Quins was 300.

http://www.blackandambers.co.uk/Matches/FixturesAndResultsIn

That's 300 plus people who potentially are not watching Dragons.

Or it could be that the same 300 attend Newport matches and NGD matches. They both play at Dave, don't forget.

Cyril wrote:"a reasonable debate"

Dowlais

Quite so.

He does know a lot of people mind.

Griff wrote:LD, I don't want to labour the point too much but I've just looked at the league structure for Devon (the country including Exeter). In this county alone there are 9 leagues, or just over 100 clubs. Exeter would probably count their catchment as Cornwall and Dorset too so they have way more competing clubs than Ospreys. And the English Premiership tend to play their games around 3pm on Saturdays don't they? So more competing clubs, more conflict in kick off times, but still more support for the Pro team.

I would hazard a guess that Cornwall and Dorset and I suppose you could add Somerset has a higher population than the whole of Wales, if not it definitely has a higher population than south east or South west Wales.

Risca Rev wrote:

Cyril wrote:"a reasonable debate"

Dowlais

Quite so.

He does know a lot of people mind.

What have I said that you would not consider reasonable ?

And yes I do know a lot of people in Merthyr, my business introduces me to lots of people.

LordDowlais wrote:

Griff wrote:Newport RFC attendances are very low. Looking at this season the biggest I could find at RP was the derby against EV - 850 people. Other attendances are around 650. Carmarthen Quins was 300.

http://www.blackandambers.co.uk/Matches/FixturesAndResultsIn

That's 300 plus people who potentially are not watching Dragons.

Not likely when you think fans still think the dragons are Newport. Make your mind up dowlais

Risca Rev wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Griff wrote:Newport RFC attendances are very low. Looking at this season the biggest I could find at RP was the derby against EV - 850 people. Other attendances are around 650. Carmarthen Quins was 300.

http://www.blackandambers.co.uk/Matches/FixturesAndResultsIn

That's 300 plus people who potentially are not watching Dragons.

Not likely when you think fans still think the dragons are Newport. Make your mind up dowlais

Those are the fans who used to support Newport RFC but have now taken Dragons as their team and just say it is still Newport. The 300 plus left who support Newport are the ones who refuse to see Dragons as anything to do with Newport, and please do not try and be clever about this, because you are an avid rugby supporter and you know what I mean.

So answer this Lord, what made Leinster's attendances increase and Ospreys fall in recent times? For both sides nothing really changed in the wider determinants of attendance which we've identified: the number of competing clubs in the area didn't really change; a recession happened in both Wales and Ireland yet one team lost fans while the other gained them; the size of the local population didn't change significantly in this time; the kick off times have not changed really in the Celtic league/Magners/Pro 12 in this time. According to you, Lord, competing teams dictates attendance, so why did these two sides see conflicting crowd changes over the last 10 years when their numbers of competing clubs has remained relatively unchanged? Surely their crowds would have remained the same???

LordDowlais wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Griff wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Nope, no chip mate, I quite now what my own town is like, and it have done a lot of work in the Vale of Glamorgan, it's a beautiful part of Wales, but to suggest it is anything like Merthyr is very wide of the mark. Also, the regions can give out as much free tickets as they like, but people cannot be in two places at once, and neither can they afford to spend the added extras that go along with supporting your region.

Good point Cardiff Dave makes. My local club is free to watch too. And I'm sure you know, as an avid regional fan, that most regional games are Friday/Saturday evening or Sunday. Very rarely would the Dragons play at 3pm on a Saturday when my local club plays. So there's no money conflicts there. No 'two places at once' conflicts either (or at least very few). Must be something else then...

Indeed and a mate of mine who follows his local club (coaches the kids too), regularly attends Cardiff Blues games too. Infact a whole bunch of them do, freebies or not.

I did not say everybody does not do it, I am glad they have the time and money to do it, also getting to the city centre from the Vale of Glamorgan is a lot closer than coming down from Dowlais and back on Friday night or Saturday evening, especially when they have Dowlais RFC to think of.

Depends on whereabouts you are in the Vale I guess. Many places don't have a train station like Merthyr does.
Time to stop digging I think LD.

Griff wrote:So answer this Lord, what made Leinster's attendances increase and Ospreys fall in recent times? For both sides nothing really changed in the wider determinants of attendance which we've identified: the number of competing clubs in the area didn't really change; a recession happened in both Wales and Ireland yet one team lost fans while the other gained them; the size of the local population didn't change significantly in this time; the kick off times have not changed really in the Celtic league/Magners/Pro 12 in this time. According to you, Lord, competing teams dictates attendance, so why did these two sides see conflicting crowd changes over the last 10 years when their numbers of competing clubs has remained relatively unchanged? Surely their crowds would have remained the same???

Leinster has a capital city in its province for a start, also Ospreys lost their fair weather fans due to the stars leaving, the support for the 77 clubs in the Ospreys region did not alter, they were and always will be there, Leinster always had that support before the credit crunch, they just stayed supporting Leinster, you go on as if Ospreys always had twenty thousand at their game, they didn't, they have always been hovering around ten thousand or less, the support for Ospreys has only dropped by about two thousand, to get what they are getting is not bad considering what they are up against.

LordDowlais wrote:OMG, I am banging my head against a wall here, if the regions played every Friday night, or Sunday afternoon, you would have more of an argument, people see their weekend for what it is, people who go to watch, take part, play with their local sides on a weekend, then THAT is their weekend, most people cannot afford to cram a regional game in on the same weekend, free tickets or not, some people can afford it, but where would they get the time ? Don't you think it is a little rich for people on here to tell people that even though they watch their local side, you should ALSO go and watch your region as well ?

No other country in the 6N has the amount of rugby to population ratio as Wales has, and for me there in lies the issue, we should try and turn the heads of the people who are not watching any rugby, not turn the heads of people who are already watching rugby, rugby is alive and kicking in Wales, 77 clubs in Ospreylia alone is evidence of this, that many clubs in such a small area is too much, and that is the reality that our regions are competing with, I do see light at the end of the tunnel, this new agreement will see more of the internationals staying here, and that will bring back the fair weather fans.

Again, I will say this.

Leinster's fans grew exponentially when all other factors stayed the same. Ospreys lost support when all other factors stayed the same. The one key variable that changed for both was success. So my point in this all along is that, according to the evidence available, it is success that influences attendance. Not competing clubs. Not recession. Not kick off times conflicting with kids parties. Success. That is the key my friend.

Griff wrote:Leinster's fans grew exponentially when all other factors stayed the same. Ospreys lost support when all other factors stayed the same. The one key variable that changed for both was success. So my point in this all along is that, according to the evidence available, it is success that influences attendance. Not competing clubs. Not recession. Not kick off times conflicting with kids parties. Success. That is the key my friend.

I am not disputing that though am I ? I have said on numerous occasions that the regions should not be trying to attract the rugby fans in their regions because they are already supporting a team, they should be trying to target the people who do not support anybody yet. What I am trying to say is Regions attendances have not really dropped that much, they were never that high anyway, and for them to get the fans they have, with what they are up against should be applauded.

LordDowlais wrote:

Griff wrote:Leinster's fans grew exponentially when all other factors stayed the same. Ospreys lost support when all other factors stayed the same. The one key variable that changed for both was success. So my point in this all along is that, according to the evidence available, it is success that influences attendance. Not competing clubs. Not recession. Not kick off times conflicting with kids parties. Success. That is the key my friend.

I am not disputing that though am I ? I have said on numerous occasions that the regions should not be trying to attract the rugby fans in their regions because they are already supporting a team, they should be trying to target the people who do not support anybody yet. What I am trying to say is Regions attendances have not really dropped that much, they were never that high anyway, and for them to get the fans they have, with what they are up against should be applauded.

Get your teeth into this LD.
You suggested previously that getting from Merthyr to Cardiff is a bit of a mare on an evening. I can understand that, so how far north of Dowlais for instance should the target market be for Cardiff Blues?

Lord, the same basically applied to Munster, it wasn't as straight forward as Leinster, it rose from 4/5 to 5/6 and 6/7 dipped in 7/8 and increased dramatically in 8/9, the season they hammered us in the QF of the HC, that is when they really took off, it is success that breeds increased attendances.

LD reading all this just reaffirms your stupidity. I remember when you last took a few months away from the board after showing off over the Warriors being disbanded. I suggest you have another spell on the side lines (preferably Dowlais RFC side lines for you).

Saint, who on earth do you think you are ? You are just a 25 year old know nothing nobody, I was watching rugby when you were still swimming around in your furthers nuts, I am not showing off, I am giving an opinion, and as I have told you before, you have no credibility after your Ospreys thread at the start of this season.

The Saint wrote:LD reading all this just reaffirms your stupidity. I remember when you last took a few months away from the board after showing off over the Warriors being disbanded. I suggest you have another spell on the side lines (preferably Dowlais RFC side lines for you).

Another 10mins for LD then.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Griff wrote:Leinster's fans grew exponentially when all other factors stayed the same. Ospreys lost support when all other factors stayed the same. The one key variable that changed for both was success. So my point in this all along is that, according to the evidence available, it is success that influences attendance. Not competing clubs. Not recession. Not kick off times conflicting with kids parties. Success. That is the key my friend.

I am not disputing that though am I ? I have said on numerous occasions that the regions should not be trying to attract the rugby fans in their regions because they are already supporting a team, they should be trying to target the people who do not support anybody yet. What I am trying to say is Regions attendances have not really dropped that much, they were never that high anyway, and for them to get the fans they have, with what they are up against should be applauded.

Get your teeth into this LD.
You suggested previously that getting from Merthyr to Cardiff is a bit of a mare on an evening. I can understand that, so how far north of Dowlais for instance should the target market be for Cardiff Blues?

Does the region go any further north than that ? The next area from north of Merthyr is Powys, does that come under rgc ?

Can any if you answer me then, what other country in the six nations has a higher rugby to people ratio than Wales ?

LordDowlais wrote:Saint, who on earth do you think you are ? You are just a 25 year old know nothing nobody, I was watching rugby when you were still swimming around in your furthers nuts, I am not showing off, I am giving an opinion, and as I have told you before, you have no credibility after your Ospreys thread at the start of this season.

You're still talking rubbish. And you have poor grammar. Just take a few days off and then come back with an improved attitude.

PS - really desperate aren't you to be mentioning that thread. Not sure how or why it affected my 'credibility scoring' - if there's such a thing. I just gave an opinion based on player retention (or lack of) and results. Simple really; and it continues to generate discussion, when did any of your articles ever do that . Now has the crying over the Warriors finally stopped?

What do you mean "rugby"?

LordDowlais wrote:Can any if you answer me then, what other country in the six nations has a higher rugby to people ratio than Wales ?

What does that have to do with anything? Whenever you get an answer you just repeat yourself and refuse to accept reality.

LordDowlais wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Griff wrote:Leinster's fans grew exponentially when all other factors stayed the same. Ospreys lost support when all other factors stayed the same. The one key variable that changed for both was success. So my point in this all along is that, according to the evidence available, it is success that influences attendance. Not competing clubs. Not recession. Not kick off times conflicting with kids parties. Success. That is the key my friend.

I am not disputing that though am I ? I have said on numerous occasions that the regions should not be trying to attract the rugby fans in their regions because they are already supporting a team, they should be trying to target the people who do not support anybody yet. What I am trying to say is Regions attendances have not really dropped that much, they were never that high anyway, and for them to get the fans they have, with what they are up against should be applauded.

Get your teeth into this LD.
You suggested previously that getting from Merthyr to Cardiff is a bit of a mare on an evening. I can understand that, so how far north of Dowlais for instance should the target market be for Cardiff Blues?

Does the region go any further north than that ? The next area from north of Merthyr is Powys, does that come under rgc ?

Check it out. Nuts or what?
http://www.cardiffblues.com/community/regional_clubs_map_of_the_blues_region.php

So anyway, I am not arguing where the Cardiff Blues region covers, what I can conclude by this debate is, according to Wayne, Saint, Griff and Cardiff Dave, is that there are more people watching and involved with the four regions than there are watching and involved with the other 312 clubs in wales. Ok each to their own.

HammerofThunor wrote:What do you mean "rugby"?

What I mean is, the amount of people who live in an area, to the amount of different rugby clubs to support, what I am trying to get across is, that there is too much rugby and not enough people in wales.

The Saint wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Can any if you answer me then, what other country in the six nations has a higher rugby to people ratio than Wales ?

What does that have to do with anything? Whenever you get an answer you just repeat yourself and refuse to accept reality.

It has everything to do with it, I am trying to tell you but I cannot get through to you, there is too much rugby, and not enough people and or money in wales to support it.

The Saint wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Saint, who on earth do you think you are ? You are just a 25 year old know nothing nobody, I was watching rugby when you were still swimming around in your furthers nuts, I am not showing off, I am giving an opinion, and as I have told you before, you have no credibility after your Ospreys thread at the start of this season.

You're still talking rubbish. And you have poor grammar. Just take a few days off and then come back with an improved attitude.

PS - really desperate aren't you to be mentioning that thread. Not sure how or why it affected my 'credibility scoring' - if there's such a thing. I just gave an opinion based on player retention (or lack of) and results. Simple really; and it continues to generate discussion, when did any of your articles ever do that . Now has the crying over the Warriors finally stopped?

Please, do not condescend me and talk about my attitude, when it is you writing on here in a very condescending manner, when you can debate with a little less arrogance, then perhaps me and you will get on better.

LordDowlais wrote:So anyway, I am not arguing where the Cardiff Blues region covers, what I can conclude by this debate is, according to Wayne, Saint, Griff and Cardiff Dave, is that there are more people watching and involved with the four regions than there are watching and involved with the other 312 clubs in wales. Ok each to their own.

Aah go on. Horse and cart from Llandrindod Wells?

LordDowlais wrote:Can any if you answer me then, what other country in the six nations has a higher rugby to people ratio than Wales ?

What does that have to do with anything??? We've shown with the growth of Munster, the growth of Leinster, the recent growth of Connacht, the recent growth of Exeter, and the relatively small but still noticeable drop in attendances a the Ospreys, etc. that the ratios and % does not matter. Growth and decline still happen.

What you can't seem to get your head round is that the Ospryes still had these 77 clubs competing with them when they had higher attendances. Wales still had this same rugby to people ratio. So these extra couple of thousand fans a few years back somehow managed to tear themselves away from family/local club rugby/the grips of recession/the declining Welsh industry/awkward kick off times/the distance to travel, etc. But they've now gone. Nothing has changed. The 77 clubs are still there. The local population is about them same. There's still a recession. Games are still on the TV. So the whole point here is that, in the opinions of a number of posters, we can get these fans back, whereas you're suggesting it's impossible to get them back because of all of these obstacles to them supporting their region and the ratio we're at. We're saying the obstacles didn't stop the missing few thousand last time. Therefore it's probably something else - like success.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:So anyway, I am not arguing where the Cardiff Blues region covers, what I can conclude by this debate is, according to Wayne, Saint, Griff and Cardiff Dave, is that there are more people watching and involved with the four regions than there are watching and involved with the other 312 clubs in wales. Ok each to their own.

Aah go on. Horse and cart from Llandrindod Wells?

That's how they would have to travel from there ain't it ?

[quote="Griff"]

LordDowlais wrote:Can any if you answer me then, what other country in the six nations has a higher rugby to people ratio than Wales ?

What does that have to do with anything??? We've shown with the growth of Munster, the growth of Leinster, the recent growth of Connacht, the recent growth of Exeter, and the relatively small but still noticeable drop in attendances a the Ospreys, etc. that the ratios and % does not matter. Growth and decline still happen.

What you can't seem to get your head round is that the Ospryes still had these 77 clubs competing with them when they had higher attendances. Wales still had this same rugby to people ratio. So these extra couple of thousand fans a few years back somehow managed to tear themselves away from family/local club rugby/the grips of recession/the declining Welsh industry/awkward kick off times/the distance to travel, etc. But they've now gone. Nothing has changed. The 77 clubs are still there. The local population is about them same. There's still a recession. Games are still on the TV. So the whole point here is that, in the opinions of a number of posters, we can get these fans back, whereas you're suggesting it's impossible to get them back because of all of these obstacles to them supporting their region and the ratio we're at. We're saying the obstacles didn't stop the missing few thousand last time. Therefore it's probably something else - like success.[/quote)


Griff I am getting tired of you now, I have never argued the fact wether success is pivotal in attendances, you keep bringing it up, what I am saying is that even when Ospreys were at their most successful they dis not have great attendances, ok they had a few good ones in the HC to bump up the average, but in the league it has always been more or less what they are getting now. Ospreys can get those fans back, but they are the fair weather fans that did not support anybody else in the first place.

LordDowlais wrote:So anyway, I am not arguing where the Cardiff Blues region covers, what I can conclude by this debate is, according to Wayne, Saint, Griff and Cardiff Dave, is that there are more people watching and involved with the four regions than there are watching and involved with the other 312 clubs in wales. Ok each to their own.

Lord, I don't know about the others, what I'm saying is that we were having bigger crowds, when we were moderately successful a few years ago, compared to recent years when we have been less so, the same can be said of the early Leinster years and less so Munster compared to after they became successful, there is nothing in your evidence that shows anything else has an influence.

Dowlais, I'm tired of you too. It saddens me to announce that you are now the first person I have ever had to put on 'ignore'.

Just as an aside, but where does 312 clubs come from?