Rugby attendances in Wales - a reasonable debate

First topic message reminder :

Ok, after reading the Ospreys V Northampton match thread, I think a few things need to be explained, I am fed up of hearing that rugby is being killed by Cardiff and Swansea football clubs, these thoughts are usually from ill educated masses who now nothing of the culture that rugby has in Wales, they just see full stadiums for the only TWO professional football clubs in Wales and make their own minds up, and this is the fact that we need to get across.

Firstly, yes Cardiff F.C and Swansea F.C do have massive following's in and around their areas, but what people really need to think about is this, Swansea are west Wales and Cardiff are east Wales, in these two parts of Wales, they compete with nobody, they are the two stand alone entities that people from as far west as Pembroke dock, and as far east as Monmouth go to watch these two clubs. They compete with no one in the Welsh world of football, the only competition they have, is from Liverpool, Manchester, Arsenal and even those fans will go and watch the two Welsh clubs more often than not.

Now, secondly, if we divide the east and west if Wales up, you get FOUR professional rugby teams, people from Cardiff and the surrounding areas will support Blues, people from Gwent will support Dragons, then people from Swansea and the surrounding areas will support Ospreys and people from Llanelli and further west will support Scarlets. Add the support up for both regions in each of the east and the west and you will not be far off what the football teams in the same areas have.

Right, thirdly and this is a very important thirdly. In each and every town, village and city you will find one or two rugby clubs, for instance the Welsh premiership has a dozen clubs each getting on times up to a thousand spectators watching every week, then in the same towns you will get smaller clubs who will have a few hundred there watching week in week out, not to mention all the lower leagues, in my town alone there are about six rugby clubs, all of them get decent support. Our regions have to compete with the myriad of rugby clubs from within they're own regions, the football clubs do not have to compete with this sort of support.

The point I am trying to make with people is, that there is more than likely too much rugby in Wales to go around with the population of the country, I know of people who have family playing locally, they will go and watch their son, husband, farther play and not only that, they will help with the running of the club, they will make food in the clubhouse afterwards, they will organise events, now with so many people doing these things on a Saturday afternoon, how can they then be expected to spend more money and time on a Friday, Saturday, Sunday evening to go and watch their regions as well, especially when they are on the tele, and that is another thing, the rugby on BBC 2 Wales and S4C get massive viewing figures in Wales, and after listening to Roger Lewis, because of this, the money they get from the tele is the equivalent to getting an extra ten thousand people through the gates for each game.

Lastly, if we look at things rationally, when the national teams of both football and rugby have a game and all the fans go to watch and support, when the Welsh national football side has a match, you do not get the interest that the Welsh rugby team gets, this shows what happens when ALL the supporters of each sport get together for that one game, rugby will generate 70,000 people in a stadium and hundreds of thousands who will congregate into their local pubs and clubs, and fill their town centres or go down to the capital just for the atmosphere, the Welsh national football side just does not generate this kind of support, that is because, every fan of every rugby club in Wales equates to more people than every fan of every football club, so to summarise, rugby is as strong as it ever has been in Wales, there is just too much of it to go around.

The Saint wrote:That's another 20 fans who could be at their region then right?

Every fan who supports somebody else, is a fan not supporting their region. Small steps and all that.

Why is it when shifty mentions it, it's sounds feasible, but when I have been saying it all thorugh this thread I am stupid and an idiot ?

Surely you can support more than one team though, when I get home to the right side of the bridge I try and arrange it so I can get to see the Dragons (my Region) and Ebbw Vale (my home town) play.

Again, if the cap fits.

LordDowlais wrote:

The Saint wrote:That's another 20 fans who could be at their region then right?

Every fan who supports somebody else, is a fan not supporting their region. Small steps and all that.

Why is it when shifty mentions it, it's sounds feasible, but when I have been saying it all thorugh this thread I am stupid and an idiot ?

Can't they support both? If they don't, the region may have lost 200-300 fans at the most who could have turned up at the ground? There would be 7000+ fans at the ground, so the lost fans seems an insignificant number.

I don't think anyone said it sounds feasible. Maybe you've been referred to as an idiot for a number of reasons?

Risca Rev wrote:Again, if the cap fits.

Risca, do me a favour and grow up.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Surely you can support more than one team though, when I get home to the right side of the bridge I try and arrange it so I can get to see the Dragons (my Region) and Ebbw Vale (my home town) play.

You can support who ever you like, I am not debating that, but what we need to realise is, that not everybody has the time and or money to go and watch/take part/help out with their local side and cram their region all into one weekend.

The Saint wrote:I don't think anyone said it sounds feasible. Maybe you've been referred to as an idiot for a number of reasons?

And what reasons would they be ? I have been sticking to my origonal sentiment all through this debate, and that is, there is too much rugby and not enough people or people with money and time to support ALL the rugby that is on offer here in Wales.

LD it was a rhetorical question. But if you wanted to know I'm sure you're capable of going over the previous pages in this thread .

The Saint wrote:LD it was a rhetorical question. But if you wanted to know I'm sure you're capable of going over the previous pages in this thread .

So do you think there is too much rugby for the amount of people/money/time in Wales ?

No.

LordDowlais wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Surely you can support more than one team though, when I get home to the right side of the bridge I try and arrange it so I can get to see the Dragons (my Region) and Ebbw Vale (my home town) play.

You can support who ever you like, I am not debating that, but what we need to realise is, that not everybody has the time and or money to go and watch/take part/help out with their local side and cram their region all into one weekend.

Again, free to watch my local club and I went to watch Bedwas v Cardiff several seasons ago. Cost me £3 IIRC and U16s free. Cardiff Blues weren't playing of course as it was a Saturday afternoon, shock horror.

LordDowlais wrote:Anyway, why are we arguing about this now ? First CD tried to get me into an argument about how far the Blues region covered, Griff was trying to argue with me about success on the field, now this, gate receipts, why are we changing the debate ? I still stick by what I am saying, we will never get twenty thousand fans watching the regions on a regular basis, there are too many other rugby clubs in Wales, now wether you want to agree with me on this or not, that's your choice, it does not make me stupid or an idiot for thinking this.

Relevant though LD. Many clubs are far from the beaten track with regards to getting to and from CAP.

LD I dont know where you get the notion "There are to many other rugby clubs" from.  People choose who they support

Compared to footy clubs rugby is small fry these days

Allty wrote:LD I dont know where you get the notion "There are to many other rugby clubs" from.  People choose who they support

Compared to footy clubs rugby is small fry these days

Alty there are 162 football clubs in Wales, and if it is to be agreed, as people have been saying on here, that more people support football than rugby, then the fact that there are 316 rugby clubs in Wales, with less support than football then that strengthens my point wouldn't you think.
Heres a link to the football teams :-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_football_clubs_in_Wales

Heres a link to the rugby teams:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Welsh_rugby_union_clubs_by_division

LD .....There are over 15 football leagues of approx 20 teams each in Swansea alone.

Allty wrote:LD .....There are over 15 football leagues of approx 20 teams each in Swansea alone.  

Well that just shows the extra competition the regions are up against I suppose.

Look, I do not care what anybody tries saying to me on here, the regions do well to get the crowds they are getting when you consider what they are up against. They could do a little better, but to think they would be anything like the Irish provinces is just wishfull thinking.

Well I suppose there are a lot of people who are content not watching top flight rugby

IronMike wrote:Well I suppose there are a lot of people who are content not watching top flight rugby

Exactly, thank you.

I agree

So your point all along was that people in Wales aren't interested in club rugby because they have better things to do? Well that was worth 6 pages. Isn't that the same everywhere?

LordDowlais wrote:

Allty wrote:LD .....There are over 15 football leagues of approx 20 teams each in Swansea alone.  

Well that just shows the extra competition the regions are up against I suppose.

Outside of Cardiff and Swansea there is NO football competition, I have seen in several places where football and rugby are played in pitches alongside each other and no one watches the football. the only real competition football poses is at the professional end, and with regards to attracting young kids into the sport. Though even when I was a kid at school break times there was some children who prefered to play football and others who prefered to play rugby. Was there any real threat of Adam Jones, Gethin Jenkins or George North wanting to play football over rugby? no not really, in fact the only real Welsh sportsman you could say was possibly lost from rugby to football was Ryan Giggs because his father was a professional rugby player in league, so potentially he might of had the genes for rugby. I always thought he'd of made a decent fly half myself. But in reality even the best "Welsh" football players are basically nearly all English. I was looking at the Welsh national football team a few years ago and most of the squad qualified through some kind of distant relative. How many of the Welsh team started out at Cardiff and Swansea? Very few is the honest answer, most are English who weren't good enough for England so played for Wales instead. Now look at he other end of it, in rugby nearly if not all of the current Welsh rugby squad were educated and learned their rugby in Wales. Gareth Anscombe being the person who didn't.
But in terms of Ospreys attendances they have lost season tickets holders as a result of Swansea getting to the Premier league, it's possible the Scarlets did too.

Shifty wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Allty wrote:LD .....There are over 15 football leagues of approx 20 teams each in Swansea alone.  

Well that just shows the extra competition the regions are up against I suppose.

Outside of Cardiff and Swansea there is NO football competition, I have seen in several places where football and rugby are played in pitches alongside each other and no one watches the football.  the only real competition football poses is at the professional end, and with regards to attracting young kids into the sport.  Though even when I was a kid at school break times there was some children who prefered to play football and others who prefered to play rugby.  Was there any real threat of Adam Jones, Gethin Jenkins or George North wanting to play football over rugby?  no not really, in fact the only real Welsh sportsman you could say was possibly lost from rugby to football was Ryan Giggs because his father was a professional rugby player in league, so potentially he might of had the genes for rugby.  I always thought he'd of made a decent fly half myself.  But in reality even the best "Welsh" football players are basically nearly all English.  I was looking at the Welsh national football team a few years ago and most of the squad qualified through some kind of distant relative.  How many of the Welsh team started out at Cardiff and Swansea?  Very few is the honest answer, most are English who weren't good enough for England so played for Wales instead.  Now look at he other end of it, in rugby nearly if not all of the current Welsh rugby squad were educated and learned their rugby in Wales.  Gareth Anscombe being the person who didn't.  
But in terms of Ospreys attendances they have lost season tickets holders as a result of Swansea getting to the Premier league, it's possible the Scarlets did too.

So outside of Cardiff and Swansea nobody plays football? Having grown up in Newport I can say that is not true and you must be in some delusional bubble. Most of the rest of that post is also wrong.

The Saint wrote:

Shifty wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Allty wrote:LD .....There are over 15 football leagues of approx 20 teams each in Swansea alone.  

Well that just shows the extra competition the regions are up against I suppose.

Outside of Cardiff and Swansea there is NO football competition, I have seen in several places where football and rugby are played in pitches alongside each other and no one watches the football.  the only real competition football poses is at the professional end, and with regards to attracting young kids into the sport.  Though even when I was a kid at school break times there was some children who prefered to play football and others who prefered to play rugby.  Was there any real threat of Adam Jones, Gethin Jenkins or George North wanting to play football over rugby?  no not really, in fact the only real Welsh sportsman you could say was possibly lost from rugby to football was Ryan Giggs because his father was a professional rugby player in league, so potentially he might of had the genes for rugby.  I always thought he'd of made a decent fly half myself.  But in reality even the best "Welsh" football players are basically nearly all English.  I was looking at the Welsh national football team a few years ago and most of the squad qualified through some kind of distant relative.  How many of the Welsh team started out at Cardiff and Swansea?  Very few is the honest answer, most are English who weren't good enough for England so played for Wales instead.  Now look at he other end of it, in rugby nearly if not all of the current Welsh rugby squad were educated and learned their rugby in Wales.  Gareth Anscombe being the person who didn't.  
But in terms of Ospreys attendances they have lost season tickets holders as a result of Swansea getting to the Premier league, it's possible the Scarlets did too.

So outside of Cardiff and Swansea nobody plays football? Having grown up in Newport I can say that is not true and you must be in some delusional bubble. Most of the rest of that post is also wrong.

You look at an athlete who plays football and an athlete who plays rugby, their bodies will look very different. Whats I'm saying is in terms of fan base, simply compare the very top domestic Welsh football and the very top domestic Welsh rugby. Hell if memory serves Wales has only had 1 professional Welsh club and that was Barry Town and they ended up bankrupt years ago! Look at the Welsh football Premiership and the clubs in it:

The New Saints
Aberystwyth Town
Bala Town
Airbus UK Broughton
Newtown AFC
Carmarthen Town AFC
Rhyl FC
Cefn Druids
Gap Connahs Quay
Bangor City
Prestatyn Town

Most of these clubs are very small towns / villages in North Wales, in fact only Carmarthern Town and Carmarthern Quins have any kind of comparison in terms of head to head competitiveness. I think it's fair to say attendances in the Welsh rugby Premiership and Welsh football premiership coem down very heavily in favor of the Welsh rugby clubs.

LordDowlais wrote:Look, I do not care what anybody tries saying to me on here, the regions do well to get the crowds they are getting when you consider what they are up against. They could do a little better, but to think they would be anything like the Irish provinces is just wishfull thinking.

Ooh you little fibber.
Anyway, those running the game in Wales should have a "reasonable debate" about attendances and everything else for that matter. I wish.

Shifty wrote:Now look at he other end of it, in rugby nearly if not all of the current Welsh rugby squad were educated and learned their rugby in Wales.  Gareth Anscombe being the person who didn't.

Jonathan Davies - Born in Solihull
Dan Lydiate - Born in Salford

Both grew up in Wales though. Cuthburt only went to uni there at 18. When do you learn your rugby?

Clearly in Steve's book, from birth

Sorry shifty, still no clue what you're on about or how it's relevant.

Jake Ball is also English born but grew up in South Africa (I think). So the waste majority grew up in Wales. Maybe 3 who didn't.

HammerofThunor wrote:So your point all along was that people in Wales aren't interested in club rugby because they have better things to do? Well that was worth 6 pages.  Isn't that the same everywhere?

I got there in the end didn't I ?

But the poiny I was trying to make was, that the regions do well to get anywhere near ten thousand people per game, especialy when you consider what they are up agianst. If anybody on here thinks they will get crowds anywhere near what the Irish provinces get, then they are living in dream land, how can a team with 77 other rugby clubs to contend with expect to get upwards of 15000 to 17000 per game ?

Really folks you need to understand where Shifty is coming from, his loss of attendance figures are ridiculous, this is a man who was a ST holder for us for a few years and has now left in a huff because he was continually put down for some of his views on our forum.
Today on our Forum a question was asked about the Season Ticket Members and how it compared to when the BOGOF (Buy one get one free) a few seasons ago, a member of staff at the Ospreys who combines his role with being the one and only Moderator of the forum, came back with the figure of just over 5000 with some free kids in that number, this season with Premium Ticket holders and Season ticket holders included the figure is close to 6600 with NO FREE TICKETS. I know who I believe, then yet again if I was NOTCH I would believe Shifty as nothing that comes out of the Ospreys organisation in his opinion can be believed

[quote="Shifty"][quote="LordDowlais"][quote="Allty"]LD .....There are over 15 football leagues of approx 20 teams each in Swansea alone.  
[/quote]

Well that just shows the extra competition the regions are up against I suppose.[/quote]

Outside of Cardiff and Swansea there is NO football competition, I have seen in several places where football and rugby are played in pitches alongside each other and no one watches the football.  the only real competition football poses is at the professional end, s.  Gareth Anscombe being the person who didn't.  
But in terms of Ospreys attendances they have lost season tickets holders as a result of Swansea getting to the Premier league, it's possible the Scarlets did too.[/quote]

_______________________________________________


You are so so wrong Shifty. Check out the whole of N Wales its a mass of Leagues. Add in Mid Wales and Pembroke. Rugby is clearly the minority sport.

HammerofThunor wrote:Jake Ball is also English born but grew up in South Africa (I think). So the waste majority grew up in Wales. Maybe 3 who didn't.

In Australia. The three you refer to must be Ball, Cuthbert and (yet to be capped) Anscombe.

Yeah (and Cuthbert was there from 18). and that should have been "vast majority"

LordDowlais wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:So your point all along was that people in Wales aren't interested in club rugby because they have better things to do? Well that was worth 6 pages.  Isn't that the same everywhere?

I got there in the end didn't I ?

But the poiny I was trying to make was, that the regions do well to get anywhere near ten thousand people per game, especialy when you consider what they are up agianst. If anybody on here thinks they will get crowds anywhere near what the Irish provinces get, then they are living in dream land, how can a team with 77 other rugby clubs to contend with expect to get upwards of 15000 to 17000 per game ?

Not at CAP mate although get the product right and 12,500 paying top dollar would be good.

wayne wrote:Really folks you need to understand where Shifty is coming from, his loss of attendance figures are ridiculous, this is a man who was a ST holder for us for a few years and has now left in a huff because he was continually put down for some of his views on our forum.
Today on our Forum a question was asked about the Season Ticket Members and how it compared to when the BOGOF (Buy one get one free) a few seasons ago, a member of staff at the Ospreys who combines his role with being the one and only Moderator of the forum, came back with the figure of just over 5000 with some free kids in that number, this season with Premium Ticket holders and Season ticket holders included the figure is close to 6600 with NO FREE TICKETS. I know who I believe, then yet again if I was NOTCH I would believe Shifty as nothing that comes out of the Ospreys organisation in his opinion can be believed

I actually have all your posts on block, but managed to catch this one as I was reading the topic while logged out. You have had the hump with me since you messaged me on the Ospreys forum a few years ago asking for a lift to the stadium from Ogmore, if memory serves. I don't want to drag over problems from the Ospreys forum from here so I'd appreciate it if you didn't mention my name on ANY forum post and don't reply to anything I write. Any time I seem to post anything you seem to have something to say about it and frankly it's getting boring now.

LD it's no wonder Ospreys aren't getting the numbers through the gate... Shifty drives a 4x4 but refuses to give anyone a lift. That's 7 more people not turning up to watch the region!

The Saint wrote:LD it's no wonder Ospreys aren't getting the numbers through the gate... Shifty drives a 4x4 but refuses to give anyone a lift. That's 7 more people not turning up to watch the region!

Shifty wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Allty wrote:LD .....There are over 15 football leagues of approx 20 teams each in Swansea alone.  

Well that just shows the extra competition the regions are up against I suppose.

Outside of Cardiff and Swansea there is NO football competition, I have seen in several places where football and rugby are played in pitches alongside each other and no one watches the football.  the only real competition football poses is at the professional end, and with regards to attracting young kids into the sport.  Though even when I was a kid at school break times there was some children who prefered to play football and others who prefered to play rugby.  Was there any real threat of Adam Jones, Gethin Jenkins or George North wanting to play football over rugby?  no not really, in fact the only real Welsh sportsman you could say was possibly lost from rugby to football was Ryan Giggs because his father was a professional rugby player in league, so potentially he might of had the genes for rugby.  I always thought he'd of made a decent fly half myself.  But in reality even the best "Welsh" football players are basically nearly all English.  I was looking at the Welsh national football team a few years ago and most of the squad qualified through some kind of distant relative.  How many of the Welsh team started out at Cardiff and Swansea?  Very few is the honest answer, most are English who weren't good enough for England so played for Wales instead.  Now look at he other end of it, in rugby nearly if not all of the current Welsh rugby squad were educated and learned their rugby in Wales.  Gareth Anscombe being the person who didn't.  
But in terms of Ospreys attendances they have lost season tickets holders as a result of Swansea getting to the Premier league, it's possible the Scarlets did too.

Shifty you forget Newport - in Newport at mini level football is thriving, and they are organised very well wit the backing of the welsh FA there are 3, 4g facilities in newport which on a sunday morning, ALL the teams in Newport go to, and off the top of my head there are 8 and most of them field 2-3 sides. My son plays both rugby and football. In football he plays for the B side in a league of B and C teams. In rugby they have to travel far and wide to play (Rhymney, Abergavenny, Taffs Well) and they only play one team and even then some teams struggle to put 10 players out

I played football in Newport growing up in the 80's. Albion Rovers in Malpas! Football leagues at that level were thriving with a number of leagues, all different age groups, we had an A and B team, etc. But it wasn't to the detriment of youth rugby - there were plenty of those clubs and leagues and age groups too. I guess they're such different sports. I doubt any of the boys in my team would have switched over to rugby. It's just a different type of sportsman in my experience.

I believe the football and rugby leagues are still going strong now. Perhaps not as strong as in the 80's, but that's probably more to do with the play station generation than inter-sport competition. We never had computer games when I was playing football!

Griff,

You're not wrong about the play station generation. When we were kids as you said there were no such distractions and if you wanted to see your mates you left the house now they just do it all online.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Griff,

You're not wrong about the play station generation.  When we were kids as you said there were no such distractions and if you wanted to see your mates you left the house now they just do it all online.

Ah, the good old days, building dens, building bonfires and protecting them, run outs, hide and seek, nock nock ginger, hedge hopping, camping out in the mountains and nicking milk in the mornings, looking for an empty street to play touch rugby or football, british bulldogs, going on an all day bike ride with your mates, or in fact just going out at 9am and not comming back until 6pm, nobody ever worried, the only computer you played was an atari, and then you could only play them in the morning as you needed the tele to play it, as soon as your parents were there and they wanted to watch the tele the atari was off. Life was so much easier back then.

LordDowlais wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Griff,

You're not wrong about the play station generation.  When we were kids as you said there were no such distractions and if you wanted to see your mates you left the house now they just do it all online.

Ah, the good old days, building dens, building bonfires and protecting them, run outs, hide and seek, nock nock ginger, hedge hopping, camping out in the mountains and nicking milk in the mornings, looking for an empty street to play touch rugby or football, british bulldogs, going on an all day bike ride with your mates, or in fact just going out at 9am and not comming back until 6pm, nobody ever worried, the only computer you played was an atari, and then you could only play them in the morning as you needed the tele to play it, as soon as your parents were there and they wanted to watch the tele the atari was off. Life was so much easier back then.  

LD,

You have pretty much just described my childhood to a tee bar the football, never really played it at all it was all rugby. I remember all family gathering round tv to watch the then 5 Nations and being amazed by how animated by Dad and Uncles would get then as soon as the whistle went I would grab the rugby and all the boys would meet and go to the school yard (never locked in those days) and re enact the game we had all just watched then go home caked in mud.

bedfordwelsh wrote:re enact the game we had all just watched then go home caked in mud.

OMG, you have just unearthed some very nice old memories for me there, cheers for that, after every rugby game, you really did not have to go looking for people, because everybody would feel the same. Funnily enough, there is one memory like that which immediately came to mind, it was after Wales played the USA in the eighties, I think it was the first time we played them, and Glenn Webb scored about six tries, after the game we all came running out of our houses with rugby balls and we all fancied a game, and we all wanted to be Glenn Webb.

LD,

Giving my age away a but now but I had found drink by that time (86 ish I think) so watched and then discussed like we all do with a pint in hand but yeah that was the picture I had and still do.

You knew that within minutes of final minutes all the boys would be out and you would be off to play and be JPR, Gerald, Gareth etc etc oh those were the days lol.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Giving my age away

Well you have got ten years on me Bed. But isn't it strange the your decade and my decade did not alter that much, what has happened to the las two decades that has changed all this ? kids being molly coddled, thats what it is, too many mammies boys, being handed everything on a plate. God I sound like my farther.

Could it be said it is Professional Rugby that has changed everything

Allty wrote:Could it be said it is Professional Rugby that has changed everything

Fair question and worth a reasonable debate type thread of it's own maybe?