Rugby attendances in Wales - a reasonable debate

by LordDowlais Tue 20 Jan - 23:46

First topic message reminder :

Ok, after reading the Ospreys V Northampton match thread, I think a few things need to be explained, I am fed up of hearing that rugby is being killed by Cardiff and Swansea football clubs, these thoughts are usually from ill educated masses who now nothing of the culture that rugby has in Wales, they just see full stadiums for the only TWO professional football clubs in Wales and make their own minds up, and this is the fact that we need to get across.

Firstly, yes Cardiff F.C and Swansea F.C do have massive following's in and around their areas, but what people really need to think about is this, Swansea are west Wales and Cardiff are east Wales, in these two parts of Wales, they compete with nobody, they are the two stand alone entities that people from as far west as Pembroke dock, and as far east as Monmouth go to watch these two clubs. They compete with no one in the Welsh world of football, the only competition they have, is from Liverpool, Manchester, Arsenal and even those fans will go and watch the two Welsh clubs more often than not.

Now, secondly, if we divide the east and west if Wales up, you get FOUR professional rugby teams, people from Cardiff and the surrounding areas will support Blues, people from Gwent will support Dragons, then people from Swansea and the surrounding areas will support Ospreys and people from Llanelli and further west will support Scarlets. Add the support up for both regions in each of the east and the west and you will not be far off what the football teams in the same areas have.

Right, thirdly and this is a very important thirdly. In each and every town, village and city you will find one or two rugby clubs, for instance the Welsh premiership has a dozen clubs each getting on times up to a thousand spectators watching every week, then in the same towns you will get smaller clubs who will have a few hundred there watching week in week out, not to mention all the lower leagues, in my town alone there are about six rugby clubs, all of them get decent support. Our regions have to compete with the myriad of rugby clubs from within they're own regions, the football clubs do not have to compete with this sort of support.

The point I am trying to make with people is, that there is more than likely too much rugby in Wales to go around with the population of the country, I know of people who have family playing locally, they will go and watch their son, husband, farther play and not only that, they will help with the running of the club, they will make food in the clubhouse afterwards, they will organise events, now with so many people doing these things on a Saturday afternoon, how can they then be expected to spend more money and time on a Friday, Saturday, Sunday evening to go and watch their regions as well, especially when they are on the tele, and that is another thing, the rugby on BBC 2 Wales and S4C get massive viewing figures in Wales, and after listening to Roger Lewis, because of this, the money they get from the tele is the equivalent to getting an extra ten thousand people through the gates for each game.

Lastly, if we look at things rationally, when the national teams of both football and rugby have a game and all the fans go to watch and support, when the Welsh national football side has a match, you do not get the interest that the Welsh rugby team gets, this shows what happens when ALL the supporters of each sport get together for that one game, rugby will generate 70,000 people in a stadium and hundreds of thousands who will congregate into their local pubs and clubs, and fill their town centres or go down to the capital just for the atmosphere, the Welsh national football side just does not generate this kind of support, that is because, every fan of every rugby club in Wales equates to more people than every fan of every football club, so to summarise, rugby is as strong as it ever has been in Wales, there is just too much of it to go around.

by Jenifer McLadyboy Thu 22 Jan - 2:49

Kingshu wrote:

For the regions I think making the playoffs isn't seen as a great achievment,

It would be for the Dragons. Their fans are fairly passionate too.

by LordDowlais Thu 22 Jan - 3:15

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:At least they don't have to compete with GAA though.

Niether does Irish rugby, as mentioned on this thread earlier, the two sports run at different times of the year.

by LordDowlais Thu 22 Jan - 3:18

Kingshu wrote:So while Connacht have been able to grow as a brand in the same League, the regions have faultered or taken backward steps.

That is because Connacht do not have to compete with as many other rugby clubs as the regions do.

by wayne Thu 22 Jan - 3:27

LordDowlais wrote:
Kingshu wrote:So while Connacht have been able to grow as a brand in the same League, the regions have faultered or taken backward steps.

That is because Connacht do not have to compete with as many other rugby clubs as the regions do.

And their Union actually support the Provinces, whereas ours actively didn't, this POSSIBLY? could be changing

by LordDowlais Thu 22 Jan - 3:32

wayne wrote:And their Union actually support the Provinces, whereas ours actively didn't, this POSSIBLY? could be changing

I have seen a wind of change as of late, and people from other countries should take note, because if we get things right here in Wales, in my opinion, both at regional and international level, Welsh rugby could start to become a real force again, just like in the 70's.

by bedfordwelsh Thu 22 Jan - 3:40

LordDowlais wrote:
wayne wrote:And their Union actually support the Provinces, whereas ours actively didn't, this POSSIBLY? could be changing

I have seen a wind of change as of late, and people from other countries should take note, because if we get things right here in Wales, in my opinion, both at regional and international level, Welsh rugby could start to become a real force again, just like in the 70's.

LD,

We have been as successful internationally since the Regions as we were in the 70s, its hard to compare clubs as there was no cross border/european competition in the 70s.

by LordDowlais Thu 22 Jan - 3:43

bedfordwelsh wrote:We have been as successful internationally since the Regions as we were in the 70s, its hard to compare clubs as there was no cross border/european competition in the 70s.

The Welsh clubs have been playing English clubs for as long as I can remember, when I was a young wipper snapper in the eightees my old man used to take me down to the Arms Park to many a ding dong between Cardiff and Gloucester.

by bedfordwelsh Thu 22 Jan - 3:50

LordDowlais wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:We have been as successful internationally since the Regions as we were in the 70s, its hard to compare clubs as there was no cross border/european competition in the 70s.

The Welsh clubs have been playing English clubs for as long as I can remember, when I was a young wipper snapper in the eightees my old man used to take me down to the Arms Park to many a ding dong between Cardiff and Gloucester.

Yeah they were and I remember it well to but there was no euro comp as such so hard to say they were more successful then competition wise. The cross border games were and still are great I agree

by Jenifer McLadyboy Thu 22 Jan - 4:09

LordDowlais wrote:
Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:At least they don't have to compete with GAA though.

Niether does Irish rugby, as mentioned on this thread earlier, the two sports run at different times of the year.

They start and finish at different times of the year they most certainly do NOT run at different times.

GAA is Feb to November and sometimes later. Club matches can go on until Christmas.

by Jenifer McLadyboy Thu 22 Jan - 4:21

LordDowlais wrote:
Kingshu wrote:So while Connacht have been able to grow as a brand in the same League, the regions have faultered or taken backward steps.

That is because Connacht do not have to compete with as many other rugby clubs as the regions do.

I don't think you get this whole GAA thing at all. It works the same as Rugby in Wales where it is village v village right down to grass roots.

Outside of Limerick, Rugby is seen as an elitist sport played by private school boys etc. (Massive generalisation there, and it is changing)

The fact that there are only 25 Rugby clubs in the whole province of Connacht is part of it. Have a guess how many GAA clubs there are?

212. Yes 212.

AND there are more than that in just Dublin alone. Nearly 700 in the Province of Leinster. 650 in Munster and nearly 600 in Ulster.

Are you starting to grasp the significance?

You cannot play both sports at ANY kind of level. Just today Cork hurling is mourning Darren Sweetnam signing a pro contract with Munster. He will be lost to the sport. Tomas O'Leary was also a Cork Hurler before he chose Rugby. There are countless others who could have made great Rugby players who chose Football (Gaelic not soccer) or Hurling over Rugby.

by The Saint Thu 22 Jan - 4:28

LordDowlais wrote:
The Saint wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Saint wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Saint wrote:Same old cliché's being regurgitated. There's never a reasonable debate with you LD and all this here just reiterates that.

Saint, why are you even on here ? All you do is give a jumped up opinion of your own views and rubbish the opinions of other people's views, seriously, you cannot be like this outside of cyberland, because if you did go around with that attitude you would swiftly become a human punch bag for people who have less patience than people like myself.

Says the one still crying over the Warriorszzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

As expected this article has added nothing new to the Welsh rugby debate. Thanks for boring us all.

Saint, stop being a complete and utter pr1ck.

What was that you were saying earlier earlier about behaviour outside of cyberland?

BTW - i'm not trying to get under your skin, you genuniely haven't added anything to the on-going debate. As I expected this thread and comments is just now a regurgiation of all the myths and facts we've already heard.

Well if you think that way, then just do not come onto the thread.

Or you could reduce spam by not posting it in the first place.

by Kingshu Thu 22 Jan - 4:32

LordDowlais wrote:
Kingshu wrote:So while Connacht have been able to grow as a brand in the same League, the regions have faultered or taken backward steps.

That is because Connacht do not have to compete with as many other rugby clubs as the regions do.

To put it in context, you said there are 316 rugby clubs in Wales meaning there is just far too much rugby going around in Wales for the amount of people who live here.

There are 212 GAA clubs in Connacht alone,
GAA runs, Feb-Oct, so only really 3 months there is no competition
Yet attendance figues in Galway have increased to be around the same level as the regions.

by Guest Thu 22 Jan - 5:15

Kingshu wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Kingshu wrote:So while Connacht have been able to grow as a brand in the same League, the regions have faultered or taken backward steps.

That is because Connacht do not have to compete with as many other rugby clubs as the regions do.

To put it in context, you said there are 316 rugby clubs in Wales meaning there is just far too much rugby going around in Wales for the amount of people who live here.

There are 212 GAA clubs in Connacht alone,
GAA runs, Feb-Oct, so only really 3 months there is no competition
Yet attendance figues in Galway have increased to be around the same level as the regions.

Are you suggesting we should close down some clubs because there are too many? Surely we should be encouraging participation, not closing clubs down? Clubs will open and close/start up or shut down naturally based on demand and finances. Just leave them be and let nature take its course.

by Stone Motif Thu 22 Jan - 5:37

geoff999rugby wrote:People outside Wales understand perfectly its size but don't accept that is the reason for its poor crowds.

Cardiff has a bigger population than Belfast.
Swansea, is near as damn it the same.
Both are a lot bigger than Limerick.

Ireland has to content with 2 Gaelic sports as alternative attractions.
Welsh crowds are significantly down on where they use to be.

Utter flaming nonsense.

Much as it pains me to admit, Lord D has a point (although not about football, Premiership soccer has been and will be the first sporting love of Wales).

Population of Blues region = 750,000 ish. Leinster = 2.5m
Population of Greater Newport aka the Kingdom of Gwent = 500k ish. Connacht = 500k ish.
Ospreys = 430,000. Ulster = 2.1m
Turks = 215k (possibly all with some genetic connection to each other) Munster 1.2m (possibly all with some genetic connection to each other).

All with a Premier League feckn football team within an hour or two's drive let's not forget (plus the 2,400,000,000 Ponty supporters who 'will never be a Blue')

Who would you say gets better attendence from their target market?

by Stone Motif Thu 22 Jan - 5:41

LordDowlais wrote:Good post exiled, but also can I add, we can tend to be very parochial in Wales, the artificial nature of the regions you speak of, it does carry some truth, although as time goes by it is getting less and less artificial as more people attach themselves to the nearest pro club, but if you put yourself in the Blues region, you potentially have massive support from the Rhondda valleys, which is where a lot of support for Cardiff City F.C comes from, but the people up there, their nearest pro rugby club used to be Pontypridd, and there is no way on earth, at this present time that a Pontypridd supporter would go and watch, what they see, as just another version of Cardiff RFC. It also does not help, when most of the fans from each region are standing on the terraces refusing to accept that they are now a region, and they staunchly keep calling themselves Cardiff, Swansea, Newport, Llanelli. But to be honest, you do not see as much of that going on now on the terraces of the teams from West Wales, but it is still rife in Cardiff and Newport. But my point still stands, there is too much rugby in Wales for the amount of people supporting it.

Ah. Normal service resumed. Utter cobblers Lord D and you know it.

by Stone Motif Thu 22 Jan - 5:43

wayne wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Kingshu wrote:So while Connacht have been able to grow as a brand in the same League, the regions have faultered or taken backward steps.

That is because Connacht do not have to compete with as many other rugby clubs as the regions do.
And their Union actually support the Provinces, whereas ours actively didn't, this POSSIBLY? could be changing

I'd go one further than that, being as Rog has actively diverted funding from the regions into Irish and Scottish rugby over the years.

by Stone Motif Thu 22 Jan - 5:45

Griff wrote:
Kingshu wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Kingshu wrote:So while Connacht have been able to grow as a brand in the same League, the regions have faultered or taken backward steps.

That is because Connacht do not have to compete with as many other rugby clubs as the regions do.

To put it in context, you said there are 316 rugby clubs in Wales meaning there is just far too much rugby going around in Wales for the amount of people who live here.

There are 212 GAA clubs in Connacht alone,
GAA runs, Feb-Oct, so only really 3 months there is no competition
Yet attendance figues in Galway have increased to be around the same level as the regions.

Are you suggesting we should close down some clubs because there are too many? Surely we should be encouraging participation, not closing clubs down? Clubs will open and close/start up or shut down naturally based on demand and finances. Just leave them be and let nature take its course.

The shambolic levels of participation in most Welsh clubs would suggest yes, some need to go to the wall in order for the better ones to survive and flourish.

The total separation of the pro and amateur games is the next step.

by Guest Thu 22 Jan - 6:04

Stone Motif wrote:
Griff wrote:
Kingshu wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Kingshu wrote:So while Connacht have been able to grow as a brand in the same League, the regions have faultered or taken backward steps.

That is because Connacht do not have to compete with as many other rugby clubs as the regions do.

To put it in context, you said there are 316 rugby clubs in Wales meaning there is just far too much rugby going around in Wales for the amount of people who live here.

There are 212 GAA clubs in Connacht alone,
GAA runs, Feb-Oct, so only really 3 months there is no competition
Yet attendance figues in Galway have increased to be around the same level as the regions.

Are you suggesting we should close down some clubs because there are too many? Surely we should be encouraging participation, not closing clubs down? Clubs will open and close/start up or shut down naturally based on demand and finances. Just leave them be and let nature take its course.

The shambolic levels of participation in most Welsh clubs would suggest yes, some need to go to the wall in order for the better ones to survive and flourish.

The total separation of the pro and amateur games is the next step.

Balls. You (as in we, the apparently knowledgable posters of 606) can't play god with the grass roots just to meet nice quotas. "Work out the rugby playing population and divide by x = the number of clubs we should have. Let's start the cull". Utter tripe. Leave that quota rubbish to Rog and the pro game. If we've got 315 clubs that are fulfilling fixtures then there's enough demand for 315 clubs. If clubs can't fulfil fixtures then we'll have 300, for example. If demand increases we'll have 350. Why try to impose a cap on participation?

by Kingshu Thu 22 Jan - 6:44

LordDowlais wrote:there are 316 rugby clubs in Wales, if we divide that by the population of Wales that leaves a potential of just over 11,000 supporters for each club, that is without taking into account people who will go and watch football, or people who just do not care about sports, so for us to get the attendances we are getting for our regions it is not that bad at all, there is just far too much rugby going around in Wales for the amount of people who live here.

Just to be claer it wasn't me that said this I was quoting LordDowlais.

However I did advocate reducing funding to the Welsh Prem.

by geoff999rugby Thu 22 Jan - 6:45

LordDowlais wrote:
Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:At least they don't have to compete with GAA though.

Niether does Irish rugby, as mentioned on this thread earlier, the two sports run at different times of the year.

Do you have two Jan, Feb, March, April, May and Septembers in Wales ?
We only have those months only once in Ireland and during those 6 months Gaelic and Rugby are played at the same time

by geoff999rugby Thu 22 Jan - 6:53

Stone Motif wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:People outside Wales understand perfectly its size but don't accept that is the reason for its poor crowds.

Cardiff has a bigger population than Belfast.
Swansea, is near as damn it the same.
Both are a lot bigger than Limerick.

Ireland has to content with 2 Gaelic sports as alternative attractions.
Welsh crowds are significantly down on where they use to be.

Utter flaming nonsense.

Much as it pains me to admit, Lord D has a point (although not about football, Premiership soccer has been and will be the first sporting love of Wales).

Population of Blues region = 750,000 ish. Leinster = 2.5m
Population of Greater Newport aka the Kingdom of Gwent = 500k ish. Connacht = 500k ish.
Ospreys = 430,000. Ulster = 2.1m
Turks = 215k (possibly all with some genetic connection to each other) Munster 1.2m (possibly all with some genetic connection to each other).

All with a Premier League feckn football team within an hour or two's drive let's not forget (plus the 2,400,000,000 Ponty supporters who 'will never be a Blue')

Who would you say gets better attendence from their target market?

You need to understand Irish geography.
You could drive across the entire catchment area of 3 of the Irish regions and still not get from one end of Ulster to the other.
You would have set out early from Gweedore to make a match at Ravenhill or even from Skibbereen to Limerick
You go drive back and forth across Gwent and still not cross Connacht.

The reality is most spectators come from the local towns/cities and Wales is far more compact that Ireland.

by The Saint Thu 22 Jan - 7:05

Well now this has got a lot worse as again we have the Irish come on in and tell us how amazing they are due to Rugby being their 10th choice sport! Gee wiz.

by GavinDragon Thu 22 Jan - 7:22

Would just like to throw in that Newport County are in the play offs in league 2 and are attracting 3-4k per home game,

Ever considered that thanks to Mrs Thatcher the economy of South Wales (compared to the 70's) is in tatters and where as the game in that era was amateur in todays age to be successful you need Money which is something there is not a great deal of in South Wales and people can just no afford to go week in week out?

by Guest Thu 22 Jan - 7:27

So are we all settled on the fact that it's not an easy answer. On various threads over the years I've seen people say it's due to population, it's due to soccer, it's due to relative wealth and income, due to apathy towards regional rugby, apathy towards the league, due to tv, due to competing/local clubs taking away support, due to unfair comparisons with nations with different history/culture/rugby setup. The response to these Welsh 'excuses' is ALWAYS to point out your own individual examples of where this isn't true. Yet we still don't seem ever to find the definitive answer. That's because attendance is multi-factorial - probably a combo of a number of these factors.

When these arguments and accusations come out I always look to the example of Leinster: I was there on 2001 with Newport RFC (my old club Wink

) at Donnybrook with a crowd in the low thousands. The population of Leinster was not a great deal different than it is now. So the population argument doesn't/didn't explain Leinster's previous low crowds. They were consistently much lower than the Welsh clubs when their market was much bigger. So what led to their turn around? At a guess: investment, incentives to stay in ireland (tax relief - the number of players leaving ireland is really low in comparison to other nations, still is), Central contracts, strong intelligent marketing, the pre-existence of the province as a marketing tool (A Leinster man is a Leinster man, rugby or not), investment in quality overseas coaches, investment in stadia once demand was there (rather than before - Ospreys/Blues take note), etc., etc. BUT I doubt they would have got to that point if they just looked to the example of others and tried to copy it. I believe we need to find the answer that fits us rather than look to others. "You should do this because that's what we did in Ireland" sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. But that's what 606 seems to propose. We tried that with regional rugby (attempted to copy a provincial Ireland/NZ model and have struggled to make it work). I don't have the answer unfortunately, but I know it won't come from adopting a foreign model.

by Stone Motif Thu 22 Jan - 7:39

Griff wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:
Griff wrote:
Kingshu wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Kingshu wrote:So while Connacht have been able to grow as a brand in the same League, the regions have faultered or taken backward steps.

That is because Connacht do not have to compete with as many other rugby clubs as the regions do.

To put it in context, you said there are 316 rugby clubs in Wales meaning there is just far too much rugby going around in Wales for the amount of people who live here.

There are 212 GAA clubs in Connacht alone,
GAA runs, Feb-Oct, so only really 3 months there is no competition
Yet attendance figues in Galway have increased to be around the same level as the regions.

Are you suggesting we should close down some clubs because there are too many? Surely we should be encouraging participation, not closing clubs down? Clubs will open and close/start up or shut down naturally based on demand and finances. Just leave them be and let nature take its course.

The shambolic levels of participation in most Welsh clubs would suggest yes, some need to go to the wall in order for the better ones to survive and flourish.

The total separation of the pro and amateur games is the next step.

Balls. You (as in we, the apparently knowledgable posters of 606) can't play god with the grass roots just to meet nice quotas. "Work out the rugby playing population and divide by x = the number of clubs we should have. Let's start the cull". Utter tripe. Leave that quota rubbish to Rog and the pro game. If we've got 315 clubs that are fulfilling fixtures then there's enough demand for 315 clubs. If clubs can't fulfil fixtures then we'll have 300, for example. If demand increases we'll have 350. Why try to impose a cap on participation?

Make your mind up, is it survival of the fittest or not? Reality bites. Better amateur clubs that aren't picking used syringes out of their try lines and watching their kids get injured because there are no subs on the bench would increase participation more than the chance to play ten a side with Abercwmshatpatch on a weekend.

by Stone Motif Thu 22 Jan - 7:44

geoff999rugby wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:People outside Wales understand perfectly its size but don't accept that is the reason for its poor crowds.

Cardiff has a bigger population than Belfast.
Swansea, is near as damn it the same.
Both are a lot bigger than Limerick.

Ireland has to content with 2 Gaelic sports as alternative attractions.
Welsh crowds are significantly down on where they use to be.

Utter flaming nonsense.

Much as it pains me to admit, Lord D has a point (although not about football, Premiership soccer has been and will be the first sporting love of Wales).

Population of Blues region = 750,000 ish. Leinster = 2.5m
Population of Greater Newport aka the Kingdom of Gwent = 500k ish. Connacht = 500k ish.
Ospreys = 430,000. Ulster = 2.1m
Turks = 215k (possibly all with some genetic connection to each other) Munster 1.2m (possibly all with some genetic connection to each other).

All with a Premier League feckn football team within an hour or two's drive let's not forget (plus the 2,400,000,000 Ponty supporters who 'will never be a Blue')

Who would you say gets better attendence from their target market?

You need to understand Irish geography.
You could drive across the entire catchment area of 3 of the Irish regions and still not get from one end of Ulster to the other.
You would have set out early from Gweedore to make a match at Ravenhill or even from Skibbereen to Limerick
You go drive back and forth across Gwent and still not cross Connacht.

The reality is most spectators come from the local towns/cities and Wales is far more compact that Ireland.

Horse business.

It says Leinster on the jersey, that means their target market is everyone in Leinster.

Per capita you are doing no better than us, and our transport is shocking for a compact area.

by Guest Thu 22 Jan - 7:44

Make my mind up? I've already said its survival of the fittest. But let it happen naturally. Don't go in and cut sides and try to get a quota on clubs to fit some Union defined formula. If the demand isn't there then naturally clubs will fold and numbers will fall. If demand increases then club numbers will increase. Let it happen. Don't force us to have 250 clubs, for example, no more no less. It's not North Korea.

by Stone Motif Thu 22 Jan - 7:46

Griff wrote:So are we all settled on the fact that it's not an easy answer. On various threads over the years I've seen people say it's due to population, it's due to soccer, it's due to relative wealth and income, due to apathy towards regional rugby, apathy towards the league, due to tv, due to competing/local clubs taking away support, due to unfair comparisons with nations with different history/culture/rugby setup. The response to these Welsh 'excuses' is ALWAYS to point out your own individual examples of where this isn't true. Yet we still don't seem ever to find the definitive answer. That's because attendance is multi-factorial - probably a combo of a number of these factors.

When these arguments and accusations come out I always look to the example of Leinster: I was there on 2001 with Newport RFC (my old club ) at Donnybrook with a crowd in the low thousands. The population of Leinster was not a great deal different than it is now. So the population argument doesn't/didn't explain Leinster's previous low crowds. They were consistently much lower than the Welsh clubs when their market was much bigger. So what led to their turn around? At a guess: investment, incentives to stay in ireland (tax relief - the number of players leaving ireland is really low in comparison to other nations, still is), Central contracts, strong intelligent marketing, the pre-existence of the province as a marketing tool (A Leinster man is a Leinster man, rugby or not), investment in quality overseas coaches, investment in stadia once demand was there (rather than before - Ospreys/Blues take note), etc., etc. BUT I doubt they would have got to that point if they just looked to the example of others and tried to copy it. I believe we need to find the answer that fits us rather than look to others. "You should do this because that's what we did in Ireland" sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. But that's what O'606 seems to propose. We tried that with regional rugby (attempted to copy a provincial Ireland/NZ model and have struggled to make it work). I don't have the answer unfortunately, but I know it won't come from adopting a foreign model.

Fixed

by Stone Motif Thu 22 Jan - 7:58

Griff wrote:Make my mind up? I've already said its survival of the fittest. But let it happen naturally. Don't go in and cut sides and try to get a quota on clubs to fit some Union defined formula. If the demand isn't there then naturally clubs will fold and numbers will fall. If demand increases then club numbers will increase. Let it happen. Don't force us to have 250 clubs, for example, no more no less. It's not North Korea.

Well we're on the same page exactly then.

First thing in that is to divorce the pro and amateur games as I said. You can't allow the pro teams to evolve while their decisions are made by a bunch of guys showing up for the sandwiches.

by Kingshu Thu 22 Jan - 8:16

Griff wrote:So are we all settled on the fact that it's not an easy answer. On various threads over the years I've seen people say it's due to population, it's due to soccer, it's due to relative wealth and income, due to apathy towards regional rugby, apathy towards the league, due to tv, due to competing/local clubs taking away support, due to unfair comparisons with nations with different history/culture/rugby setup. The response to these Welsh 'excuses' is ALWAYS to point out your own individual examples of where this isn't true. Yet we still don't seem ever to find the definitive answer. That's because attendance is multi-factorial - probably a combo of a number of these factors.

When these arguments and accusations come out I always look to the example of Leinster: I was there on 2001 with Newport RFC (my old club ) at Donnybrook with a crowd in the low thousands. The population of Leinster was not a great deal different than it is now. So the population argument doesn't/didn't explain Leinster's previous low crowds. They were consistently much lower than the Welsh clubs when their market was much bigger. So what led to their turn around? At a guess: investment, incentives to stay in ireland (tax relief - the number of players leaving ireland is really low in comparison to other nations, still is), Central contracts, strong intelligent marketing, the pre-existence of the province as a marketing tool (A Leinster man is a Leinster man, rugby or not), investment in quality overseas coaches, investment in stadia once demand was there (rather than before - Ospreys/Blues take note), etc., etc. BUT I doubt they would have got to that point if they just looked to the example of others and tried to copy it. I believe we need to find the answer that fits us rather than look to others. "You should do this because that's what we did in Ireland" sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. But that's what 606 seems to propose. We tried that with regional rugby (attempted to copy a provincial Ireland/NZ model and have struggled to make it work). I don't have the answer unfortunately, but I know it won't come from adopting a foreign model.

This seams to be the most sensable post on this, so far. I don't really like the Provinces comparison as it leads to an Irish V Welsh argument. However I do think that comparisons can be drawn as they both play in the same League and both started with around the same attendance figures

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003–04_Celtic_League

Personally I think that the main reason there hasn't been as big a growth in the attendance in Wales is because none of them have ever won the H-cup or made the final since the league was born.

If the Ospreys had managed to win it durning thier golden era I don't think we would be even having this disscussion. If they had won I have no doubt that they would have been among the best supported teams in the League, this would have had a knock on effect as there would have been a feel good factor about regional rugby in Wales which would have boosted the others.

People come out and support winning teams, its really that simple, look at Eurotable club rankings (seams to have stopped in June 2014)
http://www.eurorugby.com/index.php
3 provinces in the top 10, one region in the top 20 (just)
Is it really a surprise that they get bigger crowds? If it was reversed I'd expect the attendance in Wales to be much much higher than it is now.

Look at Munster, they are constantly being mentioned in the press about having falling attendances as they are not making European Cup finals.

I think its easy for a fan to turn on the league when their team hasn't been successful in Europe, and blame it for thier woes. Irish fans like the Pro 12, sections of Welsh fans don't.

This internal belittling of the league then devalues it when a Welsh team wins it, meaning the feel good factor is lost. Whereas Glasgow have got a feelgood factor boosting crowds just by making the final and playoffs.

In my opinion changing kick-off times, showing less games on television, cheaper tickets or any of the other things mentioned will not have that big an effect on attendance. Only success will change it.

Since the Pro 12 has been run down a lot in Wales even winning the league will not have that big a difference at this stage.

What we really really need is for a Welsh team to make a good run in Europe and either win it or at least make the final. If that happens I can see that regions attendance make a massive jump, if that happens there will be less apathy toward the League from that regions fans and in will increase in value and therefore have a positive effect on the other regions.

I really hoped that this year Ospreys would put in a really good run in Europe, and for the sake of the league I hope they get an easy group next year and can put in a really good run to the final at least.

by Kingshu Thu 22 Jan - 8:28

Stone Motif wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:People outside Wales understand perfectly its size but don't accept that is the reason for its poor crowds.

Cardiff has a bigger population than Belfast.
Swansea, is near as damn it the same.
Both are a lot bigger than Limerick.

Ireland has to content with 2 Gaelic sports as alternative attractions.
Welsh crowds are significantly down on where they use to be.

Utter flaming nonsense.

Much as it pains me to admit, Lord D has a point (although not about football, Premiership soccer has been and will be the first sporting love of Wales).

Population of Blues region = 750,000 ish. Leinster = 2.5m
Population of Greater Newport aka the Kingdom of Gwent = 500k ish. Connacht = 500k ish.
Ospreys = 430,000. Ulster = 2.1m
Turks = 215k (possibly all with some genetic connection to each other) Munster 1.2m (possibly all with some genetic connection to each other).

All with a Premier League feckn football team within an hour or two's drive let's not forget (plus the 2,400,000,000 Ponty supporters who 'will never be a Blue')

Who would you say gets better attendence from their target market?

You need to understand Irish geography.
You could drive across the entire catchment area of 3 of the Irish regions and still not get from one end of Ulster to the other.
You would have set out early from Gweedore to make a match at Ravenhill or even from Skibbereen to Limerick
You go drive back and forth across Gwent and still not cross Connacht.

The reality is most spectators come from the local towns/cities and Wales is far more compact that Ireland.

Horse business.

It says Leinster on the jersey, that means their target market is everyone in Leinster.

Per capita you are doing no better than us, and our transport is shocking for a compact area.

Do you think that the Crowd in the RDS is made up evenly of 8.3% from every County in Leinster? Or does 90+% come from Dublin?

Ravenhill crowd made up of 11.1% from every County in Ulster? or 90+% come from Belfast?

Geoff's point stands

I don't expect that Ospreys crowds to be evenly spread from every club in Osprellia, I'd expect that most come from Swansea.

As Geoff said "The reality is most spectators come from the local towns/cities and Wales is far more compact that Ireland."

by Breadvan Thu 22 Jan - 8:30

Rugby will play second fiddle to football here in Wales. It did even when Swans & Cardiff were in the lower leagues, plus a hell of a lot if ppl follow the premier league big 4. These folk watch the 6 nations, cheer Wales on and feign a passing interest in their region. Ospreys had bumper attendances in our western mail named Galacticos era cos of the publicity it generated. The big names and Wales victories over Eng bought the walk up punters in. Now, with a few big names and a little interest in the actual style of rugby on offer, crowds have dropped.
Only a run of euro champs cup wins and a era of dominace by any of the 4 regions will change the attendance figures.

by Guest Thu 22 Jan - 8:48

Stone Motif wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Good post exiled, but also can I add, we can tend to be very parochial in Wales, the artificial nature of the regions you speak of, it does carry some truth, although as time goes by it is getting less and less artificial as more people attach themselves to the nearest pro club, but if you put yourself in the Blues region, you potentially have massive support from the Rhondda valleys, which is where a lot of support for Cardiff City F.C comes from, but the people up there, their nearest pro rugby club used to be Pontypridd, and there is no way on earth, at this present time that a Pontypridd supporter would go and watch, what they see, as just another version of Cardiff RFC. It also does not help, when most of the fans from each region are standing on the terraces refusing to accept that they are now a region, and they staunchly keep calling themselves Cardiff, Swansea, Newport, Llanelli. But to be honest, you do not see as much of that going on now on the terraces of the teams from West Wales, but it is still rife in Cardiff and Newport. But my point still stands, there is too much rugby in Wales for the amount of people supporting it.

Ah. Normal service resumed. Utter cobblers Lord D and you know it.

Yes, that's a massive lie Dowlais. Shame on you.

by Guest Thu 22 Jan - 9:02

Kingshu wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:People outside Wales understand perfectly its size but don't accept that is the reason for its poor crowds.

Cardiff has a bigger population than Belfast.
Swansea, is near as damn it the same.
Both are a lot bigger than Limerick.

Ireland has to content with 2 Gaelic sports as alternative attractions.
Welsh crowds are significantly down on where they use to be.

Utter flaming nonsense.

Much as it pains me to admit, Lord D has a point (although not about football, Premiership soccer has been and will be the first sporting love of Wales).

Population of Blues region = 750,000 ish. Leinster = 2.5m
Population of Greater Newport aka the Kingdom of Gwent = 500k ish. Connacht = 500k ish.
Ospreys = 430,000. Ulster = 2.1m
Turks = 215k (possibly all with some genetic connection to each other) Munster 1.2m (possibly all with some genetic connection to each other).

All with a Premier League feckn football team within an hour or two's drive let's not forget (plus the 2,400,000,000 Ponty supporters who 'will never be a Blue')

Who would you say gets better attendence from their target market?

You need to understand Irish geography.
You could drive across the entire catchment area of 3 of the Irish regions and still not get from one end of Ulster to the other.
You would have set out early from Gweedore to make a match at Ravenhill or even from Skibbereen to Limerick
You go drive back and forth across Gwent and still not cross Connacht.

The reality is most spectators come from the local towns/cities and Wales is far more compact that Ireland.

Horse business.

It says Leinster on the jersey, that means their target market is everyone in Leinster.

Per capita you are doing no better than us, and our transport is shocking for a compact area.

Do you think that the Crowd in the RDS is made up evenly of 8.3% from every County in Leinster? Or does 90+% come from Dublin?

Ravenhill crowd made up of 11.1% from every County in Ulster? or 90+% come from Belfast?

Geoff's point stands

I don't expect that Ospreys crowds to be evenly spread from every club in Osprellia, I'd expect that most come from Swansea.

As Geoff said "The reality is most spectators come from the local towns/cities and Wales is far more compact that Ireland."

Isn't Geoff's statement therefore a bit of a contradiction when related to Wales? If we're more compact, and the geography will confirm that, then the major cities are close together. We don't tend to attract fans from opposition 'provinces'. Why would we?! Surely the fact that Cardiff is 12 miles away therefore limits the reach of our marketability. So on Geoff's point Leinster have Dublin as the local 'town' to drawn from but The Dragons have Newort as the local town to draw from (150k population). Tough comparison! But then we known it's not about population as small old Newport used to trump massive Leinster on the crowd front.

The actual reality is that international rugby seems to be more important to a lot of people in wales than club rugby. Why can't that phenomenon be recognised as a real thing? Just because club/province rugby seems to be a bigger deal in Ireland than Internatioanl doesn't meant it has to be in wales, does it? Why is this all such a big deal anyway? Can't different nations have differences in the sport watching behaviours of their fans? Why do we all have to fit into this neat model of optimum fan behaviour? That's not how the world works.

by **LondonTiger** Thu 22 Jan - 9:22

I just think it is strange to say that the current level of attendances are "just the way it is" when for some they are in decline. They were higher, so why are they in decline?

As it is, the regions cannot cannot sustain themselves, so rely on WRU support. WRU however struggle to sell out the MS with over 15,000 empty seats against both SA and Aus.

Maybe it doesn't matter in the slightest.

or

Maybe there is a general malaise that needs to be addressed, all the way down to grass-roots level. I will try and find the data in the morning - but I remember a report stating that there has been a marked decline in playing numbers at adult and schools and that the number of matches per week was in sharp decline.

by 2ndtimeround Thu 22 Jan - 13:23

The crowds have declined whilst the main thing in the news about Welsh rugby has been about the infighting going on between the regions and the WRU, this has resulted in the regions been starved of money and the players the fans want to go and watch have left Wales in abundance, hence the paying public have voted with their feet.
If there is any chance of Rugby achieving its potential in Wales, the current truce needs to grow into a sound business partnership between the WRU and RRW, this may be happening as so far this season the only big name we have lost at the Scarlet's is Rhys Priestland, who I believe has left after losing his Test place, more to get out of the Welsh rugby celebrity goldfish bowl than for any other reason, at the same time we have held on to current internationals of the ability of Liam Williams, Samson Lee & Jake Ball among others, all players that would have had big money offers from far richer clubs and left in previous seasons. I believe this is a similar story at all 4 regions.
The crux of this is that as the country is coming out of a pretty dire recession it is the perfect time for these to bodies to work together at improving the product on the field, the marketing off the field and the retention of the young star players that are going to keep us going through the turnstiles to be entertained, it is after all an entertainments business.
Why has Ireland fared better? IMHO because the guys running the IRFU have invested in the product before the wrapper, ie whereas Ireland has successfully developed the playing squads and also invested in officials as an essential part of the game, the WRU have built a lovely Stadium with a nice roof and then decided its more important to pay the mortgage of early than anything else, the Regions benefactors have decided they are not going to fund everything themselves when money is tight, and with the plug pulled on funding it has shown up the amateur way the regions were actually been managed.
When all is said an done the buck has to stop at the top and these are the guys that need to fix the mess they have made.

by **George Carlin** Thu 22 Jan - 19:18

LordDowlais wrote:
The Saint wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Saint wrote:Same old cliché's being regurgitated. There's never a reasonable debate with you LD and all this here just reiterates that.

Saint, why are you even on here ? All you do is give a jumped up opinion of your own views and rubbish the opinions of other people's views, seriously, you cannot be like this outside of cyberland, because if you did go around with that attitude you would swiftly become a human punch bag for people who have less patience than people like myself.

Says the one still crying over the Warriorszzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

As expected this article has added nothing new to the Welsh rugby debate. Thanks for boring us all.

Saint, stop being a complete and utter pr1ck.

Lads, lads -this is a good thread - would be a shame to have to lock it. Please ixnay on the poo flinging.

There are real parallels here with the Scottish border club problems. The Borders are rugby mad but yet the professional franchise (the Reivers) was required to fold because people didn't feel any affinity with an artificial franchise and preferred their historical local clubs (Gala, Melrose, Kelso, Jed, etc, etc).

What I am interested in was the comment above that more people would turn out if more key Welsh internationalists played for the Welsh regions. Is that true, like?

by geoff998rugby Thu 22 Jan - 20:06

The population catchment areas of Swansea, Newport and Cardiff are not much less than Belfast and much higher than Limerick.

Llanelli who have the lowest catchment area of all Welsh teams often have the highest crowds.
The reason Welsh crowds are so poor is not, primarily, down to this issue.

The journey time from Wreham to Newport is less than it takes to cross from Gweedore to Belfast .
As I say Wales is far more compact

by **LondonTiger** Thu 22 Jan - 20:17

George Carlin wrote:
What I am interested in was the comment above that more people would turn out if more key Welsh internationalists played for the Welsh regions. Is that true, like?

Well, in general when you try and build an audience whether for sport or entertainment you want:

1) Regular, repeated start times (and days)
2) Recognisable faces
3) A quality product. (In sport this relates more to winning than the actual performances, though quality play will have an impact)

(Ticket prices are a lesser issue, though if set too high they will deter customers. Setting thyem really low will not pull people in however if above 3 criteria are not met as time is a large investment by customers as well as money.)

How many of these boxes are being ticked in the minds of local fans?

by Chunky Norwich Thu 22 Jan - 20:34

It's pretty scary to see the level of ignorance where Welsh regional rugby is concerned. Have a read of this.

There are many different reasons as to why an individual chooses to “support” a sports team, ranging from location / parental influence / a favourite player / they like the kit. In the Welsh media at the moment there seems to be a desire to show that the popularity of soccer, plus having two top flight soccer teams, will somehow negatively affect the support of our professional rugby game.

But will it? Is soccer the biggest danger to support at professional level or could it be something else? For me, it is rugby’s ability to eat itself that is a greater danger.

Soccer has always been popular in South Wales and it is pretty clear now that it is the most popular team sport in Wales for support and player numbers. And I think that it has been for some time, well before Swansea entered the Premiership. With the wall to wall media coverage of the sport and the well known wages on offer, it has always been the choice of sport for most youngsters in Wales. Having Cardiff City in the Premiership won’t affect that.

Rugby will always have its place in Welsh society, especially outside of the cities of Cardiff and Swansea, but that is no reason for it to be lazy. It faces increases challenges from all leisure activities, not just soccer, in its race for customers so it has to offer something at the professional (not international) level to get people through the door. This leads us to the question of why anybody should support (by that I mean pay for tickets) any of the four professional rugby teams in Wales.

Our friends in the media would have us believe that support should follow “regional lines”. In other words, if you live in Bridgend or follow Bridgend RFC then you “should” be an Ospreys supporter too. If you live in Pontypool then it is the Dragons for you and so on. For me, this is an utterly nonsense argument that ignores freedom of choice, ignores the fact that South Wales is tiny geographically and is further confused by the ease of movement along the M4 corridor.

So, Mr Western Mail, what if our “supporter” in question is a 30 year old single lady who was born and raised in Pembrokeshire, went to University in Swansea, works in Cardiff and lives in Cwmbran. Which is her team? Ultimately, the answer is the same answer as it is for everybody else in Wales: her team is who she chooses her team to be. Where she lives, where she works, where she was born are all irrelevant as South Wales is too small to exclude any of the four teams from her support.

This is not the same in Ireland. Dublin to Belfast takes close to 2 hours, Dublin to Galway 3 hours, Munster is significantly bigger than the whole of Wales. These are major reason as to why looking at Ireland for a supporter led “regional model” is not a sensible thing to do. In this example, our 30 year old lady could finish work on a Friday evening in Cardiff and make any of the four home grounds by the BBC imposed kick off time of 7.05pm. She couldn’t do that in Ireland without a helicopter.

This is why the obsession with branding and the removal of “club names” is a total red herring argument in Welsh rugby. Each of the four should be free to brand themselves as they choose so that they can best maximise their income, rather than pander to some media led nonsense about support lines. If the Newport Gwent Dragons earn more sponsorship (and retail income, if that is what they think) by using that brand then media should respect that and use the proper name. Ditto the other three. The obvious example here is Cardiff. In terms of rugby heritage, that brand is so strong (if not for the other brand alignment of it being Wales’ capital city) that to dilute it would be (and has been) commercial suicide. At this point it is worth remembering that a good commercial sponsor is worth hundreds of thousands of pounds a year. A retail punter is worth about £100.

Professional rugby is a bottom line driven venture that must be about maximising income. It is not a community based social inclusion project that is designed to “be available for all” and “exclude nobody”. We don’t have the geographical brands in Wales (because it is so bloody small) to be able to maximise income and maximise inclusion.

So how else can our four attract paying spectators through the gate? Well, I’d say that they were doing a pretty good job of it already when you consider their trading conditions. They are not at all in control of the product: they cannot control who they play against, they cannot control their fixture lists, they cannot control their broadcast contracts, they cannot control when their better home grown stars are available to play for them! Yet, three of them still average close to 8,000 crowds.

But do they get any praise for this from the Welsh press? No. Which is incredible in itself, but becomes understandable when you realise that the press will not rock the boat which causes the market conditions our four have to trade in.

So can more be done to attract support? Obviously, it can. The best way to do this is to be successful as supporters want to follow winners. It’s not about glory hunting, as such, but about wanting the support emotions to ultimately be happy. If we are to invest our time, money and emotions into our sports team then we must expect value in all three and this is how the Ospreys stole a march on the other three some years ago. Good players, “names” that the kids want to see play and be associated with, will attract supporters from wherever. It’s easy to get to the Liberty off the M4, which means that it is easy to get to from wherever in South Wales.

The problem from now on is not soccer taking away the existing support base but that support base not getting value from the investment of time, money and emotion. With belts being tightened and the “names” players leaving, what is the incentive to stay on supporting these teams? Why peg it to the grounds for these TV driven kick off times to see sub-standard players delivering poor quality rugby. It’s cheaper and easier to watch it at home.

This is how rugby could eat itself. With the talent drain from the professional sides negatively affecting the quality of play, with the knock on effect of our teams losing more often, then it is more and more likely that support will simply drain away to its sofa to watch the game. It won’t leave the game for soccer, but it will leave the game for the sofa.

And this won’t just be a problem for the four professional teams. As the WRU loses control over its top players when they move outside of Wales, the fitness levels of these players will be lower when entering the international season and results will suffer, as we know how much emphasis on fitness is key to Gatland’s (and Howley’s) way.

In other words, for the sake of the professional game as a whole and in order to keep the present level of support, this top level impasse over finances needs to be broken. The best Welsh players must play in Wales, top overseas players must be attracted and the fixture list amended, or it won’t be soccer killing rugby in Wales but it will be Roger Lewis doing it.

https://rugbyphilbb.wordpress.com/2013/04/

by LordDowlais Thu 22 Jan - 21:26

I agree with all of that Chunky, especialy the fact that the regions should be praised for getting an average of 8000 spectators per game.

by **LondonTiger** Thu 22 Jan - 21:37

LordDowlais wrote:I agree with all of that Chunky, especialy the fact that the regions should be praised for getting an average of 8000 spectators per game.

You do realise that that article is still suggesting attendances should/would be higher if things were sorted out. Seems to be the opposite of your view that the current attendances are as high as they can be. In fact since that article was written, almost two years ago haven't attendances declined further?

You are right to say we should not compare one country and their viewing habits with another. You blind acceptance that things cannot improve and can only continue to decline however is worrying.

by LordDowlais Thu 22 Jan - 22:54

LondonTiger wrote:You are right to say we should not compare one country and their viewing habits with another. You blind acceptance that things cannot improve and can only continue to decline however is worrying.

I do not have a blind acceptance that things cannot improve though, I have said earlier in this thread that I can see a wind of change as of late, things should be done to improve, and hopefully this new peace between the WRU and the regions will go a long way to proving this, but what I am saying is, with all the competition the regions have, they are doing well to get the crowds they are having.

by Cardiff Dave Fri 23 Jan - 4:47

Chunky Norwich wrote:It's pretty scary to see the level of ignorance where Welsh regional rugby is concerned. Have a read of this.

There are many different reasons as to why an individual chooses to “support” a sports team, ranging from location / parental influence / a favourite player / they like the kit. In the Welsh media at the moment there seems to be a desire to show that the popularity of soccer, plus having two top flight soccer teams, will somehow negatively affect the support of our professional rugby game.

But will it? Is soccer the biggest danger to support at professional level or could it be something else? For me, it is rugby’s ability to eat itself that is a greater danger.

Soccer has always been popular in South Wales and it is pretty clear now that it is the most popular team sport in Wales for support and player numbers. And I think that it has been for some time, well before Swansea entered the Premiership. With the wall to wall media coverage of the sport and the well known wages on offer, it has always been the choice of sport for most youngsters in Wales. Having Cardiff City in the Premiership won’t affect that.

Rugby will always have its place in Welsh society, especially outside of the cities of Cardiff and Swansea, but that is no reason for it to be lazy. It faces increases challenges from all leisure activities, not just soccer, in its race for customers so it has to offer something at the professional (not international) level to get people through the door. This leads us to the question of why anybody should support (by that I mean pay for tickets) any of the four professional rugby teams in Wales.

Our friends in the media would have us believe that support should follow “regional lines”. In other words, if you live in Bridgend or follow Bridgend RFC then you “should” be an Ospreys supporter too. If you live in Pontypool then it is the Dragons for you and so on. For me, this is an utterly nonsense argument that ignores freedom of choice, ignores the fact that South Wales is tiny geographically and is further confused by the ease of movement along the M4 corridor.

So, Mr Western Mail, what if our “supporter” in question is a 30 year old single lady who was born and raised in Pembrokeshire, went to University in Swansea, works in Cardiff and lives in Cwmbran. Which is her team? Ultimately, the answer is the same answer as it is for everybody else in Wales: her team is who she chooses her team to be. Where she lives, where she works, where she was born are all irrelevant as South Wales is too small to exclude any of the four teams from her support.

This is not the same in Ireland. Dublin to Belfast takes close to 2 hours, Dublin to Galway 3 hours, Munster is significantly bigger than the whole of Wales. These are major reason as to why looking at Ireland for a supporter led “regional model” is not a sensible thing to do. In this example, our 30 year old lady could finish work on a Friday evening in Cardiff and make any of the four home grounds by the BBC imposed kick off time of 7.05pm. She couldn’t do that in Ireland without a helicopter.

This is why the obsession with branding and the removal of “club names” is a total red herring argument in Welsh rugby. Each of the four should be free to brand themselves as they choose so that they can best maximise their income, rather than pander to some media led nonsense about support lines. If the Newport Gwent Dragons earn more sponsorship (and retail income, if that is what they think) by using that brand then media should respect that and use the proper name. Ditto the other three. The obvious example here is Cardiff. In terms of rugby heritage, that brand is so strong (if not for the other brand alignment of it being Wales’ capital city) that to dilute it would be (and has been) commercial suicide. At this point it is worth remembering that a good commercial sponsor is worth hundreds of thousands of pounds a year. A retail punter is worth about £100.

Professional rugby is a bottom line driven venture that must be about maximising income. It is not a community based social inclusion project that is designed to “be available for all” and “exclude nobody”. We don’t have the geographical brands in Wales (because it is so bloody small) to be able to maximise income and maximise inclusion.

So how else can our four attract paying spectators through the gate? Well, I’d say that they were doing a pretty good job of it already when you consider their trading conditions. They are not at all in control of the product: they cannot control who they play against, they cannot control their fixture lists, they cannot control their broadcast contracts, they cannot control when their better home grown stars are available to play for them! Yet, three of them still average close to 8,000 crowds.

But do they get any praise for this from the Welsh press? No. Which is incredible in itself, but becomes understandable when you realise that the press will not rock the boat which causes the market conditions our four have to trade in.

So can more be done to attract support? Obviously, it can. The best way to do this is to be successful as supporters want to follow winners. It’s not about glory hunting, as such, but about wanting the support emotions to ultimately be happy. If we are to invest our time, money and emotions into our sports team then we must expect value in all three and this is how the Ospreys stole a march on the other three some years ago. Good players, “names” that the kids want to see play and be associated with, will attract supporters from wherever. It’s easy to get to the Liberty off the M4, which means that it is easy to get to from wherever in South Wales.

The problem from now on is not soccer taking away the existing support base but that support base not getting value from the investment of time, money and emotion. With belts being tightened and the “names” players leaving, what is the incentive to stay on supporting these teams? Why peg it to the grounds for these TV driven kick off times to see sub-standard players delivering poor quality rugby. It’s cheaper and easier to watch it at home.

This is how rugby could eat itself. With the talent drain from the professional sides negatively affecting the quality of play, with the knock on effect of our teams losing more often, then it is more and more likely that support will simply drain away to its sofa to watch the game. It won’t leave the game for soccer, but it will leave the game for the sofa.

And this won’t just be a problem for the four professional teams. As the WRU loses control over its top players when they move outside of Wales, the fitness levels of these players will be lower when entering the international season and results will suffer, as we know how much emphasis on fitness is key to Gatland’s (and Howley’s) way.

In other words, for the sake of the professional game as a whole and in order to keep the present level of support, this top level impasse over finances needs to be broken. The best Welsh players must play in Wales, top overseas players must be attracted and the fixture list amended, or it won’t be soccer killing rugby in Wales but it will be Roger Lewis doing it.

https://rugbyphilbb.wordpress.com/2013/04/

Good stuff, as ever yet it's this bit that continues to perplex;

"The obvious example here is Cardiff. In terms of rugby heritage, that brand is so strong (if not for the other brand alignment of it being Wales’ capital city) that to dilute it would be (and has been) commercial suicide."

Those running the show at Cardiff have diluted the brand though. Why is that as I don't get it. Glad Jonah Lomu joined when we still had a blue and black kit. Can't imagine him in pink or the new pink ie green.

by Cardiff Dave Fri 23 Jan - 4:51

LondonTiger wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I agree with all of that Chunky, especialy the fact that the regions should be praised for getting an average of 8000 spectators per game.

You do realise that that article is still suggesting attendances should/would be higher if things were sorted out. Seems to be the opposite of your view that the current attendances are as high as they can be. In fact since that article was written, almost two years ago haven't attendances declined further?

You are right to say we should not compare one country and their viewing habits with another. You blind acceptance that things cannot improve and can only continue to decline however is worrying.

People are entitled to change their mind though LT;
Like Indecisive Dave from the Fast Show....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRPcssq-7Us

by Brendan Fri 23 Jan - 5:28

While each country is different and rugby is viewed differently in each country all seem to back up the trend of success breeds support.

When the Os were at their best they expected to win every game so if you saw them you were in with a great chance of a win, and even a bit of a performance thrown in. When was the last time they went into Europe expecting to get out of their group.

Scarlets though not as good you are going to get a show if you watch them. That might be why they get better figures.

Every team who do well have a good management team. Look at the two Scottish teams and how solid management v weak management has affected success and attendances.

by Cardiff Dave Fri 23 Jan - 5:40

LordDowlais wrote:
wayne wrote:that there are many on this and other forums, denigrate the supposed Pink Hat Brigade

I have never understood this, ok there are some who ware pink cowboy hats, but you do not really see that as a majority, what's the difference to the girls who ware those to people who would put on a massive Welsh leek or the one's who where a big daffodil around their heads ? I have seen those at Twickenham as well, women warring big red roses around their heads and people who ware those all in one lycra suits, which I find quite funny, and people dressed as knights. Also in Ireland you always see people warring leprechaun hats and in Scotland you see people using those tartan hats with a ginger beard attached to them. My opinion is, these people have paid good money to go and watch their country so they should be able to support the team how they like.

Not to be taken literally LD.
I've made and worn massive leeks before plus donned the odd hat or two.
The phrase, "Pink Hat Brigade" is a term of derision generally directed at those whose only interest is in team Wales. As far as pro/club rugby is concerned, it may as well be on Mars to them. My brother for instance and a couple of cousins too. None give a monkey's.

by Cardiff Dave Fri 23 Jan - 6:00

Brendan wrote:While each country is different and rugby is viewed differently in each country all seem to back up the trend of success breeds support.

When the Os were at their best they expected to win every game so if you saw them you were in with a great chance of a win, and even a bit of a performance thrown in. When was the last time they went into Europe expecting to get out of their group.

Scarlets though not as good you are going to get a show if you watch them. That might be why they get better figures.

Every team who do well have a good management team. Look at the two Scottish teams and how solid management v weak management has affected success and attendances.

We, in Wales have more in common with the English rather than the Union controlled Irish and Scottish teams.
Intrigued re the Scarlets' "better figures".

by Cardiff Dave Fri 23 Jan - 6:43

Cardiff Dave wrote:
Brendan wrote:While each country is different and rugby is viewed differently in each country all seem to back up the trend of success breeds support.

When the Os were at their best they expected to win every game so if you saw them you were in with a great chance of a win, and even a bit of a performance thrown in. When was the last time they went into Europe expecting to get out of their group.

Scarlets though not as good you are going to get a show if you watch them. That might be why they get better figures.

Every team who do well have a good management team. Look at the two Scottish teams and how solid management v weak management has affected success and attendances.

We, in Wales have more in common with the English rather than the Union controlled Irish and Scottish teams.
Intrigued re the Scarlets' "better figures".

My mistake. Lothian Buses. Very Welsh and very Porsche.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-30918709

by Cardiff Dave Fri 23 Jan - 8:01

LordDowlais wrote:Our regions have to compete with the myriad of rugby clubs from within they're own regions, the football clubs do not have to compete with this sort of support.

Do you make it up as you go along LD? My village, in the Vale, has both rugby and football clubs, but neither have ever been in competition with the Cardiff pro teams. Bet you that's the same across Cardiff, the Vale and the rest of Wales including the Vaaarhleys.

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