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PGA Tour: Desert Swing, Humana this week, Phoenix next: Notes from the Ballwasher

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Post by kwinigolfer Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:12 pm

First topic message reminder :

1).What a week in Golf! A nine-stroke win for Jimmy Walker as he dominated Sunday's final round of the Sony Open in Hawaii, and he scarcely earned any headlines at all. But let's skip past final round collapses, player abductions, denials of Dustin drug use and arrival of DJ Jr, golfer-saves-millionaire-from-drowning, and the tooth fairy, and give Jimmy Walker his due.

2).A week earlier, at Kapalua, Walker, by his own admission, played too conservatively and allowed Patrick Reed to reel him in and beat him in a play-off. That could have sewn second or third thoughts in Walker's mind as he took a narrow lead into Round 4 at Waialae, and that is how it looked as he trod water through seven holes. But an 8th hole tap-in birdie (the first of the day on that hole), and a Kuchar bogey, energized Walker and he birdied 7 of his final 11 holes to win by a distance.

3).So: How good is Jimmy Walker?
Three wins before March last season was an impressive achievement but he kinda ho-hummed through the rest of the year, at least until his Ryder Cup performance and Sunday (8 birdies in 16 holes) dusting of Lee Westwood. Up to 13th in the world, top of the US Presidents Cup Team qualification chart and coming off an emphatic win against Mr Consistency, Kuchar.
Walker led the Waialae field in both greens hit in regulation AND putting.
While Kuchar played a Tour round without a birdie for the first time in 255 rounds. Remarkable - what's that, about 2 1/2 years?

4).Walker just turned 36, scoring his first (Frys) win at 34. A few years ago we saw Kenny Perry play his best golf from his late thirties onwards, and then Steve Stricker went on a terrific run in his late thirties, early forties. More recently Dufner and Donaldson have shown quality in their mid thirties that we never saw in their twenties. WHO is the next thirty-something to take the golf world by storm?

5).The US Presidents Cup qualifying list looks like this:
Walker, Watson, Reed, Kirk, Kuchar, Moore, Furyk, ZJohnson, Horschel, Streb, (Spieth, Simpson).
14th: Fowler
47th: Mickelson
133rd: Woods

6).Paul Casey got off to a cracking start last week but, after his opening 62, went level par the rest of his way. Sadly typical of his recent Tour history, and he should and must do better.
But what wasn't "typical" was Brian Davis earning his first Top Ten finish in almost a year and a half of largely abysmal performances. This is a big year for Davis, not getting any younger and still doesn't have any exemption "safety net" other than "Veteran Player". plus he's $6.5M short of any career earnings exemption. Basically, he's got to keep grinding to keep his card. A win would help a LOT!

7).This is the fourth year of an 8-year title-sponsorship agreement for Humana at the old "Bob Hope" Desert Classic in California's Palm Springs area. Humana are opting out of their final four years, but tournament organizers are confident a replacement will be announced soon. They certainly have a decent field on hand, far better than when it was a 5-round event and the tournament was at death's door.
Many top Americans are here, including Kuchar, Horschel, Reed, Mickelson, ZJohnson, Kirk, Na, Bradley . . . . and Jason Dufner.

8).Jason Dufner??
Just a few months after saying he'd only play for a few more years, and coming off physical ailments which saw him walking off the course at Valhalla and opting out of Fed-Ex Play-Offs and Ryder Cup contention, he's cleaned up his act, lost a stone and a half, and is a Humana "Well-Being Ambassador". "Buff" says Golf Channel as Dufner's Dufnering days are over and he makes his first US start for 5 months following an Asian and Australasian busman's holiday last autumn.

9).Patrick Reed won "Humana" last year. It's all been a bit sh1t or bust for Reed so far, four Tour wins already, but seldom in contention otherwise. Wouldn't be surprised to see him follow Jimmy Walker in successfully defending his title. Regardless, here's a pleasant enough, if not exactly revealing, Q&A with him from pgatour.com:
http://www.pgatour.com/news/2015/01/20/patrick-reed-qa.html

Last week's Sony saw one of the lowest winning scores in PGA Tour history, and expect more of the same this week. Would like to offer thoughts on any other likely Humana winners but tough to do so when a shoot-out is involved and we're left with a putting contest.
And: Would like to suggest European contenders but they usually fall well short in such events and somewhat doubt the wisdom of guys like Casey, Donald & Molinari playing this week. (Which should assure they'll enjoy a good finish.)

10).Remember this week's format:
Rounds 1, 2 & 3 at three different courses, then the Top 70 and ties play Round 4 at "PGA West - Palmer Course".
BUT: Daylight is a scarce commodity so, if more than 78 golfers make the 54-hole cut, only Top 60 and ties will contest Round 4 - although Top 70 and ties will be paid. Got that?
And then on to Stage 2 of the 2-week Desert Swing, to Arizona for the Waste Management Phoenix Open when the Tour's circus really begins, complete with dental reports and other hoopla.

10) A).
Wishing a Very Happy 75th birthday to Jack Nicklaus. No longer "The best there is", definitely "The best there was", and possibly "The best there ever will be"!

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Post by kwinigolfer Sat Jan 24, 2015 9:07 pm

GPB,
If the leaderboard stays looking like this, a couple of web.com grads will job some guys in higher priorities out of the Phoenix field.

-7 now on the cut bubble; could even go to -8.
Donald will be taking a weekend off, but a promising round wrapping up from Brian Davis, and Molinari, Cejka and Laird ticking along nicely.

Hoping Bill Haas wins though, my one-and-done.

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Post by kwinigolfer Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:27 pm

The cut HAS gone to -8 and that sends Casey outahere a day early, Russell Knox too.
Gonzo on the brink, but playing partner Molinari having a good day.

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Post by GPB Sun Jan 25, 2015 1:32 am

If a few webbies crash the top 10, I am not sure who they would bump out of the field.

I would guess Finau would get bumped first.  

Ortiz, Fathauer, and Hadwin to follow, in that order.

But they may not get in at all.

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Post by robopz Sun Jan 25, 2015 2:23 am

GPB wrote:Justin Thomas is trying to make a statement early this year.

Tied for the lead, validating a Top 10 finish last week at Sony.

Pretty good amateur resume and one of the early favorites to be Rookie of the Year.  (along with Nick Taylor and Tony Finau)


WMO is a bad week for the WEB-commers.

Andres Gonzales is first alternate for WMO.  He is #2 on the Re-shuffle list.
I think it's gonna turn out a lot worse than even that for the web.commers at the WMPO.  I'm not showing reserved spots for the 3 Monday qualifiers in the field yet... and I'm already seeing a full 132 entries through Tony Finau...   So backing up... and barring WD's...   Finau's spot in web.com finishers category, plus Ortiz & Fathauer's spots from the web.com Season leaders category would get bumped from the field.

Then add in top-10 finishers... Justin Thomas, Scott Pinckney, Steve Wheatcroft, Alex Cejka & Sung Joon Park are currently in the top-10 at the Humana and listed as committed alternates for the WMPO...  if they were all to remain top-10, they would bump another 5 out of the field... including Adam Hadwin in the Webbie season winners category... and then all 4 of the committed major medicals... Reavie, T kelly, Levin & Piercy.

And there's even two more spots at issue. This event get's only 5 sponsors exemptions instead of 8. However, it appears as though only 3 of them have been allocated thus far.  Daniel Berger as a Web.com Finals SE, Harrington as a Member not otherwise eligible and Jon Rahm as an unrestricted.    They are not required to use them all, but if they do allocate the other two unrestricted SE's that could bump two more (Jamie Donaldson & F. Molinari from the top-125 prior season non-member category).   Just guessing, but I would think Donaldson and Molinari would be in good stead to get those two open SE's... but no way for me to know for sure.

The only web.com guy I see in for sure is Sponsor Exemption Daniel Berger as mentioned above via SE (not counting Nick Taylor who graduated to the winners category)


Last edited by robopz on Sun Jan 25, 2015 3:17 am; edited 2 times in total

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Post by GPB Sun Jan 25, 2015 3:09 am

Three of the four STM players taking three spots away is not helping much either.  Molinari looks to be fully committed to the PGATour this year.  

Even if Phoenix was 156 players, they would still have about half of the Webbies out of the field.

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Post by robopz Sun Jan 25, 2015 3:24 am

GPB wrote:Three of the four STM players taking three spots away is not helping much either.  Molinari looks to be fully committed to the PGATour this year.  

Even if Phoenix was 156 players, they would still have about half of the Webbies out of the field.
I edited in a paragraph above (next to last), but bottom line, 2 of the 5 SE's this event gets are not allocated... and it might cost STM guys Donaldson and Molinari their spots in a worst case scenario.

And agree... even if the field were 156 and all those extra SEs, Top-10 entries, and Monday 3 spotters were webbies... a good 20+ out of the category still wouldn't make the field.

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Post by GPB Sun Jan 25, 2015 3:44 am

Wouldn't that be a wake up call for Donaldson if he didn't get into Phoenix!  Top 25 player.

Square Peg, Round Hole phenomena.

BTW...check your PMs.

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Post by kwinigolfer Sun Jan 25, 2015 12:43 pm

So, a wasted couple of weeks for Paul Casey and Luke Donald, and they're sitting out Phoenix - perhaps tempted to catch a flight to Dubai?
But today's Final Round will be significant for fellow Europeans, a great chance for Cejka and Molinari to start their seasons off on the right note, especially if they can maintain their Top Ten positions - and, not incidentally, secure a tee-time in Phoenix. Martin Laird continues to play desert courses well while Brian Davis will help himself a LOT if he can improve on his 54-hole 24th placing.

Good rounds Saturday for Gonzo and Lingmerth - especially important for Gonzo to capitalize with a strong finish today after a sputtering start to his season.

My Kuchar stat looked too bad to be true - not "two wins in 24 36-hole leads" but 2 wins in 24 36-hole Top Threes.

Anyone's tournament, and with low scores to be had, it looks like the top 23 at least are still in with a chance.

First to -24 wins??

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Post by robopz Sun Jan 25, 2015 7:14 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:My Kuchar stat looked too bad to be true - not "two wins in 24 36-hole leads" but 2 wins in 24 36-hole Top Threes.
Yep... I ran the data myself, and that one is correct.

Speaking of Tiger Woods (notice that smooth segue?)...  Seems that the "failure to fire over the weekend disease" has been his trouble in majors since 2009 as well.  TW's 14-0 record in majors after holding the 3rd round lead until he got Yang'ed to be 14-1 is well chronicled... and I found it interesting to note that his major record when holding a lead or co-lead after 36 holes is an also impressive 8-0 through 2008...  But from 2009 going forward, not so good. 3 times he's led majors after 36 holes since, and has not won.  In fact from 2009 going forward, TW has been in the top-3 through 36 holes only 7 times in majors... and he backed up in 6 of those 7... remained the same in the other.  

1 outright lead resulting in a 2nd place finish ('09 PGA)
2 Tied leads resulting in a T11 and T21 (2012 U.S. Open & PGA)
1 Tied 2nd resulting in T6 finish ('13 OPEN)
1 3rd place resulting in a T3 finish ('12 OPEN)
2 Tied 3rd's resulting in two T4's. (2010-11 Masters)

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Post by kwinigolfer Sun Jan 25, 2015 8:01 pm

Winning is tough!! If Woods can recapture his form of 2013 the next Major will come. Big IF, though.

A mixed bag for Mickelson in his return to action:
Leading the league in birdies, but in negative putting territory and too far back to contend. Better times are coming.

But lots of stories at the head of Sunday's affairs, starting with interest in double heart-transplant man Compton, and including Simpson's resurgence with his short putter - certainly doing better than Keegan Bradley so far, not to mention Pettersson.
Laird & Molinari still on the fringe of contention.

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Post by kwinigolfer Sun Jan 25, 2015 8:54 pm

Birdies, even eagles, in bunches - Molinari three under for his front nine, and slips from 9th to 10th.

Twenty golfers within 3 shots of the lead.

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Post by kwinigolfer Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:24 pm

Birdie at the last for Molinari - should be good enough for a Top Ten, a definite place in next week's field, and a great kick-start to his Tour career.

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Post by robopz Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:27 am

Updated OWGR is up in OWGR thread...

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Post by kwinigolfer Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:55 am

Nice stat from Golf Channel.
Most PGA Tour wins since beginning of 2010:
9: McIlroy
8: Woods
6: Bubba, DJ, Justin Rose, Bill Haas.

And: RedWine RedWine RedWine As Miguel-Angel Jimenez wins the Champions Tour season-opener in Hawaii!

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Post by kwinigolfer Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:14 pm

My irrational exuberance about Molinari's Top Ten might be misplaced. The way I read it, a Top Ten has lower priority than his "Special" Membeship.
Looks like I'd better wait for the revised field to be published.

Woods's press appearance tomorrow going head-to-head with the opening of the NFL's Super Bowl media frenzy.

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Post by robopz Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:18 pm

I'm not sure who all is out from the initial field list that was published in the Friday internals... but as of now I'm seeing Finau and Justin Thomas were given the other two unrestricted SE's (Joh Rahm already had the other one)... and Molinari is in via his STM (as is Koepka and Donaldson)... but two of the 3 other top-10's, are out as of now (Sung Joon Park in... Steve Wheatcroft and Colt Knost currently out).

Andrez Gonzales, the next committed alternate out of web.com category is showing as 3rd alternate.

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Post by kwinigolfer Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:26 pm

Yup,
Doesn't seem quite right for Wheatcroft and Knost - no benefit derived from their fine finish at all.

Wonder if they entered Monday qualifying . . . . . .

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Post by pedro Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:12 pm

Meanwhile more details emerge in the Allenby soap. Apparently he was spotted at a sleazy strip joint after "being abducted" from the wine bar... (running up a $3K tab).  Whistle

Of course there was something fishy about this story. Now we just need to have confirmed that his gigolo slipped something in his drink before robbing him.  appletini  thumbsup

Allenby presser tomorrow in Phoenix. Waste Management turns Image Management. (Ironically Tiger will be around as well. Maybe Clinton joins from The Humana.)
PGA Tour: Desert Swing, Humana this week, Phoenix next: Notes from the Ballwasher - Page 2 1347041234 PGA Tour: Desert Swing, Humana this week, Phoenix next: Notes from the Ballwasher - Page 2 1347041234 Whisky Can't wait.

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Post by GPB Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:29 am

Kwini...look like your part of the Northeast is on the fringe of SNOWmageddon 2015.

Stay warm and Stay safe.

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Post by kwinigolfer Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:43 am

Thanks GPB, think we're going to be on the NW fringe, as you suggest. About four to eight inches suggested, depending on the track, but wouldn't be at all surprised if we dodged it completely.
Doesn't look quite so bad either in NYC as they were glooming and dooming, but Bawston could get hammered. Good.

Looking forward to seeing tomorrow's tee-time announcement, see who they stick Woods with. KJ and Kooch (I think) when he left rehab to play The Masters, wouldn't be surprised if Kuchar drew the short straw again.
No defending Champ this week given Smalrus's absence.


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Post by GPB Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:20 am

Idle speculation on Tiger's pairing..

I think Woods will be given the Thurs afternoon/Friday Morning wave on Friday with Kuchar and Dufner.

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Post by super_realist Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:43 am

Thank goodness I'm on holiday from Saturday. If 9C makes the cut the coverage would be intolerable.

I'm expecting an announcement he needs "more reps" before he can think about a "W".

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Post by Roller_Coaster Tue Jan 27, 2015 10:22 am

Good reps, great to be out there, feel good, it's coming, more work with <insert this week's coach> this week, great to be pain free at last, looking forward to <insert next tourney paying enough> thanks, appreciate it.

Blah, blah, blah, annoying, annoying, annoying, wins Masters.

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Post by super_realist Tue Jan 27, 2015 10:25 am

The worst, the absolute worst is when they say "that was fun out there today".

It's as cringeworthy as someone singing with their eyes closed.

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Post by McLaren Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:02 pm

A tweet from one of the US golf media outlets (can't remember which one) asked whether Bill Haas is the best player never to contend in a major. His best results are a T12 in the 2011 PGA championship, T19 (2012, open) and T20 in the masters (2013 and 2014).

So it seems he really hasn't contended in a major which is pretty poor for a guy with 6 PGA tour wins.

Can anyone thin of a top player who has been so poor in the majors?


Luke donald sprang to mind but he does have 8 top ten finishes, although I am not sure he has ever been in contention other than going into the 2006 PGA champ final round tied at the top with Tiger.
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Post by kwinigolfer Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:15 pm

12 wins for Wayne Levi, Player of the Year in 1990, and no top tens in 33 Majors, best was 11th in the 1984 Masters. Never played an Open Championship and opted not to play other Majors for which he was exempt.

Billy Haas has got a few years to go yet, surely. No Ryder Cups for him yet either. Bet he contends in Majors though, AND makes Ryder Cup Teams.


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Post by McLaren Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:19 pm

I would agree that over time Haas should perform as expected in Majors, but his record so far is surprisingly poor.

Wayne Levi's major record Shocked . Now that is bad. He was playing in them for 20 yeas while winning regularly on tour and never got a top 10. I think he beats Haas in the bad major record for sure.

I doubt anyone will beat that bad record.
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Post by beninho Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:04 pm

A quick search of PGA tour winners on wikipedia, working down the list, and it looks like Wayne Levi is top of the list with no top 10s then Bill Haas. Though Joey Sindelar(??) has scraped in 2 top 10s to go with his 7 pga tour wins. Though i discounted all the old boys. Rory Sabbatini has 6 tour wins, but a 2nd in the 07 Masters, though unsure if he ever contended. Though a check on that Masters shows the first signs of frailties for Tiger, first time he held the lead in the final round but did not win the title.

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Post by McLaren Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:15 pm

Who is the snazzy dresser back to work this week?

Spoiler:
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Post by kwinigolfer Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:38 pm

Ballotelli?

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Post by pedro Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:39 pm

Despite a number of top 10s, I would also argue that Stricker and Kuchar have never really been in contention.

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Post by Shotrock Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:47 pm

Stricker would be near the top of my list.  But the best player to never win a major in this era would have to be Sergio IMO. I also don't expect former world #1s  Lukey or Westwood to ever hoist a major trophy, but lightning certainly could strike for any of the above.

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Post by super_realist Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:53 pm

I reckon we'll be saying the same about Fowler soon. He's had great results in majors, but can't see him ever winning one.

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Post by super_realist Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:53 pm

McLaren wrote:Who is the snazzy dresser back to work this week?

Spoiler:

Ha ha, white socks.

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Post by Shotrock Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:44 pm


This will be an interesting year for young Fowler ... he sure did have a couple of major flybys; lets see if he can close the deal on one. (Not betting on him.)

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Post by GPB Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:46 pm

Worst Major record?  Lets continue to pick on Robert Allenby

Robert Allenby has been playing majors since 1991, he never has finished better than 7th.  

Five Top 10's in 64 Majors.  Missed Cut in all four in 2007.

2008 T7 in Open Champ was 9 shots behind the winner.
2004 T7 in USOpen was 10 shots behind the winner
1997 T20 in Open was 10 shots behind the winner
2002 T10 in PGA was 11 shots behind the winner
2004 T9 in PGA was 3 shots behind the winner, but he was 9 shots behind going into final round.  VJ shot 76 and still won.

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Post by beninho Tue Jan 27, 2015 4:06 pm

I'm not picking on Robert Allenby, for a start has he ever been expected to do well in the majors? Any top 10 finish would be a good result.

And secondly, the guy gets drunk and then hangs out in dodgy lap dancing bars, and gets beat up trying to get a hooker, ( i made that bit up, but it would not surprise me). If he wasnt beat up, he would have had a top night!

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Post by GPB Tue Jan 27, 2015 4:28 pm

Robert Allenby has been as high as #12 in the World Rankings.  

Same has Bill Haas

Allenby has 5 PGAT career wins, plus several int'l wins.  Haas has 6 PGAT wins.

Lot of similarity in their careers.

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Post by kwinigolfer Tue Jan 27, 2015 4:54 pm

But Allenby's (4 wins on Tour) on the downward slide of what looked ten years or so ago as if it would be a fine career, just below the top class. Best thing he's done in the past dozen or so years is to mentor/inspire Jarrod Lyle.
And Haas will only get better - fine swing, great to follow, wouldn't be at all surprised if he wins again this year.

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Post by GPB Tue Jan 27, 2015 5:22 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:But Allenby's (4 wins on Tour) on the downward slide of what looked ten years or so ago as if it would be a fine career, just below the top class. Best thing he's done in the past dozen or so years is to mentor/inspire Jarrod Lyle.
And Haas will only get better - fine swing, great to follow, wouldn't be at all surprised if he wins again this year.
 
OK, I was off by one PGATour win.  Not sure why I thought it was 5 wins.

But I can't believe this board is ignoring his international wins, including 4 on the EuroTour, including two in England and one in France.

Allenby has been on 6 Presidents Cup teams.

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Post by kwinigolfer Tue Jan 27, 2015 5:25 pm

Woods showed up in Phoenix with a full set of incisors.

Also in the ranks of successful Tour players with a poor Major record:
CHIII: 39 Major appearances: Best finish: T10 in the 2003 PGA.


PS: Certainly not ignoring Allenby's International success - even better when you consider the injuries he recovered from in his 90's car accident.

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Post by raycastleunited Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:34 pm

Shotrock wrote:Stricker would be near the top of my list.  But the best player to never win a major in this era would have to be Sergio IMO. I also don't expect former world #1s  Lukey or Westwood to ever hoist a major trophy, but lightning certainly could strike for any of the above.

But at least Sergio and Lee have contended at Majors. And there have been times when you thought they might even win one (at which point it slipped from their grasp).

Luke has never looked like winning a major.

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Post by Shotrock Tue Jan 27, 2015 7:04 pm

Ray - I seem to recall that Lukey was close in the 4th round of a PGA Championship a few years back, but I could be wrong. Regardless, it's specifically the elusive major that prompted Lukey to take action on his swing even though he achieved that lofty #1 ranking: Said the former #1: "I felt the goal has always been to win majors, and I just wanted to try something that I thought would give me a better opportunity to do that."

Shows you just how important a major is to some of these top dogs.

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Post by kwinigolfer Tue Jan 27, 2015 7:27 pm

Reed and Spieth getting reps with Woods on Thursday and Friday.

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Post by GPB Tue Jan 27, 2015 7:56 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:Reed and Spieth getting reps with Woods on Thursday and Friday.

At least I got the right wave for Woods.

Of course that was 50/50

Woods was paired with Spieth 4 times last year, IIRC.  Torrey Pines and Quicken Loans.  Rounds 1 and 2 each tourney.

Spieth beat him three rounds...and tied the other round.

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Post by kwinigolfer Tue Jan 27, 2015 8:03 pm

You got Kuchar with Dufner right as well!
But they always seem to put good buddies Bradley and Dufner together so there you have it: Keegs taking Tiger's place!!

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Post by GPB Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:27 pm

Didn't take CBS long to replace Oosterhuis.  

Golf Channel's Frank Nobilo is replacing him.  Not sure if that means if he is leaving Golf Channel completely as Oosterhuis worked for Golf Channel as well as CBS.

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Post by kwinigolfer Tue Jan 27, 2015 10:03 pm

Remember Oosterhuis was only on CBS's B Team, plus The Masters. Perhaps that will be the same for Frank.
(To be fair, I'd be happy for all the CBS Team to take a hike, except Kostis. Some of them are terrible, especially MacAtee and Lundquist who were also terrible on local TV when I lived in DallasTX! 35 years ago!!)

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Post by GPB Tue Jan 27, 2015 10:37 pm

Peter Kostis is the only guy I don't like on the CBS golf team.  Mainly because of his relentless plugging of the Konica Minolta Biz Hub Swing Vision Camera.

I can't believe Verne is still around.  He looks like a walking aneurysm but I since he said (stole?) the iconic YES SIR! I will always like him.

But Verne also said..."In your life, have you ever...".  Yes Verne, I saw Davis Love hole that exact same chip a few years earlier.

I am real interested to see what FOX brings to the table come June.

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Post by pedro Tue Jan 27, 2015 11:03 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:Woods showed up in Phoenix with a full set of incisors.
I guess it's considered a loose impediment?

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