IRFU lowering the NIE number for next season

by **profitius** Wed 21 Jan 2015, 8:49 pm

NIE - Non Irish Eligible

Reported today in various media that the Irish provinces will be allowed 1 less foreigner from next season. The maximum next season will be 4 for Leinster, Ulster and Munster. Connacht will still remain outside those rules.

by geoff998rugby Thu 22 Jan 2015, 9:08 am

Surprised this is only being reported now been known by some for a good 5/6 weeks now

Ulster will retain 5 next year due to existing contracts

by **rodders** Thu 22 Jan 2015, 9:39 am

No bother, we can just poach all the Saffers and Kiwis from Connacht once they qualify for Ireland.

by **Notch** Thu 22 Jan 2015, 9:42 am

I have misgivings about this. The trade-off of the provinces being less competitive to help the national team may do more damage to the games profile in Ireland in the long run.

In other words, we might be shooting ourselves in the foot.

by geoff998rugby Thu 22 Jan 2015, 9:46 am

I agree.

My concern is the likes of Henderson and Olding might leave if the standard of rugby available in the Provinces is not high enough.

Having said that all the 3 senior provinces have made a rod for their own backs by signing NIQ players who are hardly any better than what we have.

Either sign quality NIQ or dont sign at all.

There is a balancing act to be achieved here - we may be going too far in one direction

by geoff998rugby Thu 22 Jan 2015, 10:39 am

Reposting from another thread to show where we are:

Leinster
Kirchner..2015..NIE Possibly gone in May
Douglas..2017..NIE
Gopperth..2015..NIE Defo gone in May
Te'o..2016..NIQ until 2017

Not using all current spots. So room for one under the new rules or two if Kirchner goes.

Ulster
Pienaar..2017..NIE
Van der Merwe..2016..NIE
Herbst..2017..NIQ until 2017
Williams..2016..NIE
Ludik..2016..NIQ until 2017

Tied for another 18 months

Munster
Smith..2015..NIQ until 2017
Botha..2015..NIE
Bleyendaal..2017..NIQ until 2017
Van den Heever..2015..NIQ until 2016
Stander..2016..NIQ until 2015

3 players finishing and 1 becoming IQ so 3 possible spots.

by Sin é Thu 22 Jan 2015, 11:44 am

Geoff, Andrew Smith's contract was only for a 1 year. Its up at the end of this season.

by Pot Hale Thu 22 Jan 2015, 7:47 pm

Sin é wrote:Geoff, Andrew Smith's contract was only for a 1 year. Its up at the end of this season.

He hasn't really added anything to the mix - no loss - except losing another year development of a home-grown prospect or a fairly decent NIE import.

by Jenifer McLadyboy Thu 22 Jan 2015, 10:23 pm

Sin é wrote:Geoff, Andrew Smith's contract was only for a 1 year. Its up at the end of this season.

that's why it says Andrew Smith..2015..Niq until 2017.

I reckon Munster will sign a prop and a centre. They may keep GvDh as he would become iq after another year.

by geoff999rugby Fri 23 Jan 2015, 8:04 am

What stands out for me is after a disappointing year for the Provinces

Leinster and Munster both have significant leeway to correct problem through fresh NIQ signings.
Ulster on the other hand are locked in and cannot address their cronic backrow shortage Sad

by Standulstermen Fri 23 Jan 2015, 8:27 am

Notch wrote:I have misgivings about this. The trade-off of the provinces being less competitive to help the national team may do more damage to the games profile in Ireland in the long run.

In other words, we might be shooting ourselves in the foot.

Very much so. Full houses at the RDS, Thomond and Ravenhill will mean that you never have to worry about filling lansdowne. If there is apathy at provincial level it will filter up. We need to keep the rugby public (especially the more fickl elements of it) engaged on a week to week basis

by **rodders** Fri 23 Jan 2015, 9:45 am

Foley seems to think they are allowed 5 NIEs next year.

I think the IRFUs hand has been forced on this as they can't compete with the salaries in France and increasingly England.

The provinces are not the revenue driver - if the Irish team aren't doing well and the aviva isn't selling out then thats less money to prop up the provinces, so its catch 22. If the IRFU can't afford the pay big salaries for the likes of Bowe, Heaslip, Sexton etc. eventually interest in provincial rugby will drop - this comes mainly from sponsorship of the national side,the aviva, the 6N etc.

The elephant that won't go away is that the schools and club system aren't sufficient to produce enough home grown talent, particularly forwards, for the provinces to be successful - without the aid of high quality overseas players.

Based on the RCC this year, you'd say the NIEs quota needs to go up rather than down. However, if you look at the number of injuries for the international team, and how much the depth is being tested then we need as many IQ players as possible getting game time.

For instance we have 24 players selected from Leinster - that means you've almost as good a chance getting picked from outside the Leinster match day 23 than you do as a first teamer from Connacht.

But then if you look at Connacht's first team, many of the key men of NIE.

Look at at the 2nd row selection. In a 46 man squad we have only 4 fit locks - 2 in their mid 30's, and 2 are english really. So if you scrutinze that you see almost 50% of the 1st team second rows at provincial level are NIE.

Personally I think the IRFU need to partner up with a few teams in the AP and France - LI, Harlequins and grenoble being obvious ones and get more young players, particularly forwards out there for experience and be a bit more flexibile with the provinces - particularly Ulster and Munster to bolster their sides with NIEs.

by Standulstermen Fri 23 Jan 2015, 10:07 am

I have no issue with 4 NIQs as long as they are quality. I think there is enough talent that (properly augmented) it can challenge. The fact remains that by and large the rugby from Hegel big three provinces has been the stuff of nightmares. Really dire stuff. I still think a big issue is coaching.

by Jenifer McLadyboy Fri 23 Jan 2015, 10:34 am

rodders wrote:

For instance we have 24 players selected from Leinster - that means you've almost as good a chance getting picked from outside the Leinster match day 23 than you do as a first teamer from Connacht.

But then if you look at Connacht's first team, many of the key men of NIE.

Look at at the 2nd row selection. In a 46 man squad we have only 4 fit locks - 2 in their mid 30's, and 2 are english really. So if you scrutinze that you see almost 50% of the 1st team second rows at provincial level are NIE.

Jaysus Rodders. I never knew Henderson was English Yikes

Or that 2 guys out of 12 was 50% Headscratch

The Ireland Squad is actually 2 squads. Wolfhounds and 6N. 2 x 23 = 46. OK there will be some players in both, and a couple who will not feature in either.

23 x 4 = 92 which is the number of "matchday squad" players from all of the provinces. Roughly 20 of them are NIQ (That's down to 72)

There are a fair few players who are a little old who may or may not have played for Ireland in the past and are unlikely to in the future. I will choose 1 from each province as an example. Roger Wilson, Shane Jennings, Donncha O'Callaghan, Michael Swift.

That probably brings you down under 60 to choose 46 out of. Remove the really young ones who have not had their chance yet and you are not far off the 46 players.

Factor in that Leinster have more quality in depth than say Connacht and you are bound to get one or 2 from outside. Also Healy and O'Brien out for so long has exposed several players to first team rugby.

You need tackle bag holders too and guys who can rep the opposition players in training. Without naming names there are several in the 46 that will not see gametime anywhere.

by **rodders** Fri 23 Jan 2015, 11:04 am

Thats the point Jen - you have nearly every available pro player in the country in the squad - and the 2 things that stand out are the lack of second rows and the low representation from Connacht.

In summary we don't have that much depth, which relates back to the point of the thread. I don't think the huge injury list is such an anomally as the shape of things to come in the modern game.

We simply don't have enough players, to be competitive on all fronts, all year round, so need to find ways to grow the player base.

by Sin é Fri 23 Jan 2015, 11:36 am

Is that (growing the player base) what the IRFU are doing with an emphasis on recruiting Project Players?

ROG in his column in the Examiner has a right cut at Franno (I think) Very Happy

ROG wrote:It wasn’t always like that, but internet trolls and very average former players-turned-journalists have plenty to answer for. It’s because it was such a high stakes game that people have gone to town on it, but that goes with the territory he’s in too.

ROG says we need to recruit top class quality like (Doug Howlett, etc).

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/columnists/ronan-ogara/ronan-o39gara-munster-rugby-need-experience-in-mix-308605.html

by geoff999rugby Fri 23 Jan 2015, 11:38 am

Not sure I can agree nearly everyone available is listed - we have Black, Warwick, Fitzpatrick, O'Connor, Marshall x2 for example who have represented Ireland, would not be embarrassed or are players for the future not included (ignoring, largely, untried kids like Scholes, Nelson)

Add in the injuries - Henry, Tuohy, Olding, Jackson that's 10 from Ulster that come to mind.
I suspect there are similar numbers from Leinster and Munster

by geoff999rugby Fri 23 Jan 2015, 11:40 am

ROG is spot re NIE player standard and Francis

by Rory_Gallagher Fri 23 Jan 2015, 11:45 am

rodders wrote:Thats the point Jen - you have nearly every available pro player in the country in the squad - and the 2 things that stand out are the lack of second rows and the low representation from Connacht.

In summary we don't have that much depth, which relates back to the point of the thread. I don't think the huge injury list is such an anomally as the shape of things to come in the modern game.

We simply don't have enough players, to be competitive on all fronts, all year round, so need to find ways to grow the player base.

I think we have more depth than we have ever had before - and some very talented players to choose from. In fact second row is the only real position now that hasn't got great depth, even at tighthead we finally have some great options.

I think we are stacked with talent, it is very exciting times to be an Ireland fan actually.

by Jenifer McLadyboy Fri 23 Jan 2015, 11:54 am

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
rodders wrote:Thats the point Jen - you have nearly every available pro player in the country in the squad - and the 2 things that stand out are the lack of second rows and the low representation from Connacht.

In summary we don't have that much depth, which relates back to the point of the thread. I don't think the huge injury list is such an anomally as the shape of things to come in the modern game.

We simply don't have enough players, to be competitive on all fronts, all year round, so need to find ways to grow the player base.

I think we have more depth than we have ever had before - and some very talented players to choose from. In fact second row is the only real position now that hasn't got great depth, even at tighthead we finally have some great options.

I think we are stacked with talent, it is very exciting times to be an Ireland fan actually.

Bingo. AND we have our best ever coach.

If you go back to 2007 (Right in the middle of our "Golden Generation") We had a first XV and a few extra.

Now we can win a 6N with something like 17 injuries to 1st teamers. Night and day it is. The game has changed a lot in the last 8 years though and the teams of 2007 would have their arses handed to them by club teams of today.

by geoff999rugby Fri 23 Jan 2015, 11:57 am

I agree people forget at prop for example it was Horan and Hayes with Simon Best on the bench
After that virtually nothing.
I think Brian Young was next in the pecking order

We got away with it because Horan and Hayes never got injured

At fly half it was ROG with Paddy Wallace as the backup
We are much stronger now

by Sin é Fri 23 Jan 2015, 12:08 pm

We may have better depth, but we don't have the top end quality of that mid-'00s team. If Schmidt had them, he wouldn't be rotating them too much either.

The big difference in our competitiveness is that France are a long way from the force they were during the 00s.

by **rodders** Fri 23 Jan 2015, 12:12 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
rodders wrote:Thats the point Jen - you have nearly every available pro player in the country in the squad - and the 2 things that stand out are the lack of second rows and the low representation from Connacht.

In summary we don't have that much depth, which relates back to the point of the thread. I don't think the huge injury list is such an anomally as the shape of things to come in the modern game.

We simply don't have enough players, to be competitive on all fronts, all year round, so need to find ways to grow the player base.

I think we have more depth than we have ever had before - and some very talented players to choose from. In fact second row is the only real position now that hasn't got great depth, even at tighthead we finally have some great options.

I think we are stacked with talent, it is very exciting times to be an Ireland fan actually.

So do I but its still not good enough. It depends what you measure yourself against but if your ambition is to be a top 6 Nation and challenge for 6n titles...and in the RCC then it's nowhere near strong enough in the tight 5.

Don't agree about tight head - we've 35 year old Ross and maybe Moore who can only just anchor a scrum dependably and that's about it. Declan Fitzpatrick has been a disaster this season and all the provinces were beaten up in Europe up front at some point. LH is ok but we're only a few injuries away from being stretched.

It doesn't matter how many back you produce if you don't have decent forwards.

by Sin é Fri 23 Jan 2015, 12:42 pm

Munster team v Sale. Interesting to see where a few players are playing:
No. 8 - Peter O'Mahony (Rory Gallagher will be delighted Very Happy

)
No. 13 - Keith Earls (internet will go into meltdown, particularly since
No. 15 - is Simon Zebo (and Ronan O'Mahony is on the wing and Howard is on the bench) Very Happy

by Jenifer McLadyboy Fri 23 Jan 2015, 1:00 pm

rodders wrote: So if you scrutinze that you see almost 50% of the 1st team second rows at provincial level are NIE.

I just scrutinised the 2nd rows on the books at all 4 provinces.

Franco Van Der Merwe 1 cap
and
Kane Douglas 14 caps.

That's it mate. The rest are IQ bar Roux who will qualify in a few months. Edit: That's 2 out of 21

rodders wrote:

It doesn't matter how many back you produce if you don't have decent forwards.

I think you are looking at Ulster and not Ireland Rods.

Jack McGrath, Marty Moore, Tadhg Furlong, Dominic Ryan, Jordi Murphy, Jack Conan, (Just to mention the Leinster young ones)

None of these were capped 2 years ago and Conan & Furlong surely will be any day now.

by geoff999rugby Fri 23 Jan 2015, 1:09 pm

Sin é wrote:We may have better depth, but we don't have the top end quality of that mid-'00s team. If Schmidt had them, he wouldn't be rotating them too much either.

The big difference in our competitiveness is that France are a long way from the force they were during the 00s.

Really other than BOD who is a given where are we substantially worse ??

Take the backrow Wallace gave us something different but is POM, Heaslip, SOB an inferior product - not convinced.
Ignoring Ferris in any analysis as sadly played too few games.

Not sure I agree with you - our best 15 is still a very good team

by Sin é Fri 23 Jan 2015, 1:13 pm

Jenny (leaving out those who have still time to develop like McGrath to Conan etc) Dominic Ryan and Jordi Murphy are average (Good Club, fringe international).

by Jenifer McLadyboy Fri 23 Jan 2015, 1:17 pm

Sin é wrote:Jenny (leaving out those who have still time to develop like McGrath to Conan etc) Dominic Ryan and Jordi Murphy are average (Good Club, fringe international).

Like Mick O'Driscoll, Shane Jennings or Darren Cave? Well, I hope they are good enough to beat Wasps cause they are playing 6 and 7 either side of your favourite player tomorrow?

by Sin é Fri 23 Jan 2015, 1:22 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
Sin é wrote:We may have better depth, but we don't have the top end quality of that mid-'00s team. If Schmidt had them, he wouldn't be rotating them too much either.

The big difference in our competitiveness is that France are a long way from the force they were during the 00s.

Really other than BOD who is a given where are we substantially worse ??

Take the backrow Wallace gave us something different but is POM, Heaslip, SOB an inferior product - not convinced.
Ignoring Ferris in any analysis as sadly played too few games.

Not sure I agree with you - our best 15 is still a very good team

Not substantially worse, but that little extra that makes all the difference.
Front row: Flannery & Hayes are better than what he have now.
2nd Rows: nothing close to POC, Mal & Doc in their prime
Backrow: Easterby, Ferris, Leamy, Quinlan, Wallace, Foley, Heaslip (and a few other fringe players) v. POM, SOB, Heaslip, McLauglin, Diack, Henry, TOD, Jordi Murphy ?
Half backs are as good
Darcy, BOD, Hickie, Horgan, Bowe, Kearney, Dempsey, Murphy v. Henshaw, Madigan, Luke Fitz, Payne, Earls, Cave, McFadden, Zebo, Trimble, Luke Fitz, Bowe, Kearney Bros.

by Sin é Fri 23 Jan 2015, 1:23 pm

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:
Sin é wrote:Jenny (leaving out those who have still time to develop like McGrath to Conan etc) Dominic Ryan and Jordi Murphy are average (Good Club, fringe international).

Like Mick O'Driscoll, Shane Jennings or Darren Cave? Well, I hope they are good enough to beat Wasps cause they are playing 6 and 7 either side of your favourite player tomorrow?

Exactly like those players. And they should be good enough to beat Wasps.

by **rodders** Fri 23 Jan 2015, 1:33 pm

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:
I just scrutinised the 2nd rows on the books at all 4 provinces.

Franco Van Der Merwe 1 cap
and
Kane Douglas 14 caps.

That's it mate. The rest are IQ bar Roux who will qualify in a few months. Edit: That's 2 out of 21

Yeah I was referring to the starting locks - if you look at the provinces there 3 from 8 spots if all are fit. Once you have a few injuries you are down to second string players, like McCarthy.

by Rory_Gallagher Fri 23 Jan 2015, 1:35 pm

Sin é wrote:Munster team v Sale. Interesting to see where a few players are playing:
No. 8 - Peter O'Mahony (Rory Gallagher will be delighted )
No. 13 - Keith Earls (internet will go into meltdown, particularly since
No. 15 - is Simon Zebo (and Ronan O'Mahony is on the wing and Howard is on the bench)

Yep I am looking forward to see this, especially Earls at 13 actually, I have missed him!

POM is probably only at 8 because of injuries to Stander and Copeland, so I do not think he will ever play there regularly for Munster, but he is probably just as good a 6 so it is all good. Very Happy

by **rodders** Fri 23 Jan 2015, 1:37 pm

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:
It doesn't matter how many back you produce if you don't have decent forwards. I think you are looking at Ulster and not Ireland Rods.

Jack McGrath, Marty Moore, Tadhg Furlong, Dominic Ryan, Jordi Murphy, Jack Conan, (Just to mention the Leinster young ones)

None of these were capped 2 years ago and Conan & Furlong surely will be any day now.

I was referring mainly to the tight 5 - we have some decent back row players definitely - although (Conan apart as he's only 22 and doing great) the quality of those guys isn't up there with what we had a few years ago with Wallace, Ferris, O'Brien, Leamy, Heaslip, Best and Jennings.

by **rodders** Fri 23 Jan 2015, 1:39 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Sin é wrote:Munster team v Sale. Interesting to see where a few players are playing:
No. 8 - Peter O'Mahony (Rory Gallagher will be delighted )
No. 13 - Keith Earls (internet will go into meltdown, particularly since
No. 15 - is Simon Zebo (and Ronan O'Mahony is on the wing and Howard is on the bench)

Yep I am looking forward to see this, especially Earls at 13 actually, I have missed him!

So am I Rory....I could use a good laugh.... at least Zebo won't get the ball ... Smile

by Sin é Fri 23 Jan 2015, 1:47 pm

rodders wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Sin é wrote:Munster team v Sale. Interesting to see where a few players are playing:
No. 8 - Peter O'Mahony (Rory Gallagher will be delighted )
No. 13 - Keith Earls (internet will go into meltdown, particularly since
No. 15 - is Simon Zebo (and Ronan O'Mahony is on the wing and Howard is on the bench)

Yep I am looking forward to see this, especially Earls at 13 actually, I have missed him!

So am I Rory....I could use a good laugh.... at least Zebo won't get the ball ...

Zeebs is at fullback Very Happy

Joe probably wants him there so that he can cover fullback from the wing for 6Ns thumbsup

by Jenifer McLadyboy Fri 23 Jan 2015, 2:15 pm

rodders wrote:
Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:
I just scrutinised the 2nd rows on the books at all 4 provinces.

Franco Van Der Merwe 1 cap
and
Kane Douglas 14 caps.

That's it mate. The rest are IQ bar Roux who will qualify in a few months. Edit: That's 2 out of 21

Yeah I was referring to the starting locks - if you look at the provinces there 3 from 8 spots if all are fit. Once you have a few injuries you are down to second string players, like McCarthy.

Whether it's 2 out of 21 or 2 out of 8 it's still not 50%

we'll save the McCarthy debate for when I go up there to give youse a few slaps in April. Bought tickets earlier. Smile

by asoreleftshoulder Fri 23 Jan 2015, 2:17 pm

Sin é wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
Sin é wrote:We may have better depth, but we don't have the top end quality of that mid-'00s team. If Schmidt had them, he wouldn't be rotating them too much either.

The big difference in our competitiveness is that France are a long way from the force they were during the 00s.

Really other than BOD who is a given where are we substantially worse ??

Take the backrow Wallace gave us something different but is POM, Heaslip, SOB an inferior product - not convinced.
Ignoring Ferris in any analysis as sadly played too few games.

Not sure I agree with you - our best 15 is still a very good team

Not substantially worse, but that little extra that makes all the difference.
Front row: Flannery & Hayes are better than what he have now.
2nd Rows: nothing close to POC, Mal & Doc in their prime
Backrow: Easterby, Ferris, Leamy, Quinlan, Wallace, Foley, Heaslip (and a few other fringe players) v. POM, SOB, Heaslip, McLauglin, Diack, Henry, TOD, Jordi Murphy ?
Half backs are as good
Darcy, BOD, Hickie, Horgan, Bowe, Kearney, Dempsey, Murphy v. Henshaw, Madigan, Luke Fitz, Payne, Earls, Cave, McFadden, Zebo, Trimble, Luke Fitz, Bowe, Kearney Bros.

I'd disagree with your frontrow comments,Healy,McGrath,Cronin,Kilcoyne are a mile ahead of Horan and whoever was behind him.Flannery was slightly better than Best is now,I'd just give him the edge since he was so consistent and Hayes is a little better than Ross has been over the last few years but not much in it and we've god reason to believe the lads coming through will be better.

2nd row was better but I think you're way overrating MoK and DoC.

Backrow you are putting Foley and Quinlan in the same group as Heaslip and Ferris,there may have been some overlap in their careers but it was so minimal that you can't really say it's a fair comparison.

Halfbacks we have gone from 2 guys who were decent but never really in the reckoning when you were talking about a Lions team to 2 guys who would be in the conversation for a World 15,they current pair are miles ahead.

Midfield we are weaker but again there is cause for optimism in Fitz,Henshaw,Olding and Marshall never mind the talent coming through.

In the back 3 Kearney is better than anybody we ever had at fullback and the wings might be a little weaker but there's not a lot in it there either imo.

We also now have the best coach we've ever had,a guy who could figure out a way for us to beat S.A. and Oz despite an unholy injury list and a malfunctioning scrum and lineout.

by Sin é Fri 23 Jan 2015, 2:45 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Sin é wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
Sin é wrote:We may have better depth, but we don't have the top end quality of that mid-'00s team. If Schmidt had them, he wouldn't be rotating them too much either.

The big difference in our competitiveness is that France are a long way from the force they were during the 00s.

Really other than BOD who is a given where are we substantially worse ??

Take the backrow Wallace gave us something different but is POM, Heaslip, SOB an inferior product - not convinced.
Ignoring Ferris in any analysis as sadly played too few games.

Not sure I agree with you - our best 15 is still a very good team

Not substantially worse, but that little extra that makes all the difference.
Front row: Flannery & Hayes are better than what he have now.
2nd Rows: nothing close to POC, Mal & Doc in their prime
Backrow: Easterby, Ferris, Leamy, Quinlan, Wallace, Foley, Heaslip (and a few other fringe players) v. POM, SOB, Heaslip, McLauglin, Diack, Henry, TOD, Jordi Murphy ?
Half backs are as good
Darcy, BOD, Hickie, Horgan, Bowe, Kearney, Dempsey, Murphy v. Henshaw, Madigan, Luke Fitz, Payne, Earls, Cave, McFadden, Zebo, Trimble, Luke Fitz, Bowe, Kearney Bros.

I'd disagree with your frontrow comments,Healy,McGrath,Cronin,Kilcoyne are a mile ahead of Horan and whoever was behind him.Flannery was slightly better than Best is now,I'd just give him the edge since he was so consistent and Hayes is a little better than Ross has been over the last few years but not much in it and we've god reason to believe the lads coming through will be better.

2nd row was better but I think you're way overrating MoK and DoC.

Backrow you are putting Foley and Quinlan in the same group as Heaslip and Ferris,there may have been some overlap in their careers but it was so minimal that you can't really say it's a fair comparison.

Halfbacks we have gone from 2 guys who were decent but never really in the reckoning when you were talking about a Lions team to 2 guys who would be in the conversation for a World 15,they current pair are miles ahead.

Midfield we are weaker but again there is cause for optimism in Fitz,Henshaw,Olding and Marshall never mind the talent coming through.

In the back 3 Kearney is better than anybody we ever had at fullback and the wings might be a little weaker but there's not a lot in it there either imo.

We also now have the best coach we've ever had,a guy who could figure out a way for us to beat S.A. and Oz despite an unholy injury list and a malfunctioning scrum and lineout.

I didn't include Horan as better than Healy - but Flannery's throwing & the Bull's lifting POC ensured Ireland always had great attacking ball. Scrummaging went to hell with the introduction of the 'hit'. Our props look better now that the 'hit' has been removed. John Hayes played every minute of Ireland's grand slam win (and Horan played about 98% of it).

Both Mal & DOC were Lions (since you bring it up as a benchmark). I don't see Devin Toner making one.

Sexton & Murray have very little competition for a World XV out there - ROG has had Wilkinson & Stephen Jones - both much better than anything else around. Tomas O'Leary won a GS and was called up for the Lions (and probably would have been starting except for injury). Sexton's competition for a starting spot on the Lions was a teenage Farrell.

There maybe cause for optimism for the midfield - but that is all it is (and going on the number of injuries these guys are picking up, I'd remain very cautious about them. They all have a long way to go yet before being anything close to Darcy & BOD in their prime.

Kearney is very good under a highball (which is where he made his name when lots of kicking was in vogue). He is a poor attacker and defensively weak. I'd rate both Girvan (defensively) and Murphy (attacking) as better than him.

My point is that France were much stronger back then (and lets not forget in 2009 Ireland went unbeaten and with a very poor coach Wink

)

by geoff999rugby Fri 23 Jan 2015, 2:51 pm

Whilst Flannery was a better thrower Best is better at the breakdown
Toner no but Dominic Ryan would even things up
As noted you are including two other teams in the backrow compared to the present so not like with like
Murray is as good a 9 as any of those in the past if not better
Backs BOD apart are as good and indeed some real talent emerging

by asoreleftshoulder Fri 23 Jan 2015, 3:16 pm

Sin é wrote:

I didn't include Horan as better than Healy - but Flannery's throwing & the Bull's lifting POC ensured Ireland always had great attacking ball. Scrummaging went to hell with the introduction of the 'hit'. Our props look better now that the 'hit' has been removed. John Hayes played every minute of Ireland's grand slam win (and Horan played about 98% of it). Yes but Healys ball carrying and Bests breakdown work are far superior to anything that frontrow ever produced,so the talents may be different but I don't think you can say there is a big difference in overall quality.

Both Mal & DOC were Lions (since you bring it up as a benchmark). I don't see Devin Toner making one. He might if there's ever a 45 man squad again.

Sexton & Murray have very little competition for a World XV out there - ROG has had Wilkinson & Stephen Jones - both much better than anything else around. Tomas O'Leary won a GS and was called up for the Lions (and probably would have been starting except for injury). Sexton's competition for a starting spot on the Lions was a teenage Farrell. Sexton and Murray are just far better players.They would have a shot at making any team in the world RoG or Stringer wouldn't have had a chance of starting for Oz,NZ,S.A.,Eng,Fra or Wales unless there was some crazy injury crisisand it isn't because the standard of halfbacks has gone down.

There maybe cause for optimism for the midfield - but that is all it is (and going on the number of injuries these guys are picking up, I'd remain very cautious about them. They all have a long way to go yet before being anything close to Darcy & BOD in their prime.
Agreed but there is still plenty of reason for optimism.

Kearney is very good under a highball (which is where he made his name when lots of kicking was in vogue). He is a poor attacker and defensively weak. I'd rate both Girvan (defensively) and Murphy (attacking) as better than him. So two players combined are better than Kearney who is rated as one of the best fullbacks in the world despite being poor in attack and defense?

My point is that France were much stronger back then (and lets not forget in 2009 Ireland went unbeaten and with a very poor coach ) France were much stronger in the mid 00's they were declining by the end of the decade and Wales had taken their spot,imo we are now in the process of taking the top spot.You can say that the competition has got worse but that would be ignoring the results and performances we've put in against the SH teams which show that in the world order we are now rightly a top 5 side and only look to be improving.

by **rodders** Fri 23 Jan 2015, 3:32 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Sin é wrote:

Both Mal & DOC were Lions (since you bring it up as a benchmark). I don't see Devin Toner making one. He might if there's ever a 45 man squad again.

by Rory_Gallagher Fri 23 Jan 2015, 3:33 pm

rodders wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Sin é wrote:Munster team v Sale. Interesting to see where a few players are playing:
No. 8 - Peter O'Mahony (Rory Gallagher will be delighted )
No. 13 - Keith Earls (internet will go into meltdown, particularly since
No. 15 - is Simon Zebo (and Ronan O'Mahony is on the wing and Howard is on the bench)

Yep I am looking forward to see this, especially Earls at 13 actually, I have missed him!

So am I Rory....I could use a good laugh.... at least Zebo won't get the ball ...

by Rory_Gallagher Fri 23 Jan 2015, 3:39 pm

As for the 2nd row - Iain Henderson has the potential to be world class there. If he can stay fit and play consistently well he will without a doubt be in the Lions too. He is a much better ball carrier and tackler than anyone we have ever had at 2nd row.

by Sin é Fri 23 Jan 2015, 5:55 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Whilst Flannery was a better thrower Best is better at the breakdown
Toner no but Dominic Ryan would even things up
As noted you are including two other teams in the backrow compared to the present so not like with like
Murray is as good a 9 as any of those in the past if not better
Backs BOD apart are as good and indeed some real talent emerging

Flannery always held his nerve though - his throwing was just so reliable when it was necessary - his nerve has been Best's achilles heel.

Dominic Ryan is a decent club player (fringe international).

Well lets threat them as 3 sets of backrows then!

Murray is a much better scrumhalf than the rest, but Peter Stringer had more smarts and most scrumhalf's put together.

Talent may emerge, but they are not there yet. Ireland are playing a very limited style of (winning) rugby now. Not so sure how far it can go.

by **rodders** Fri 23 Jan 2015, 6:47 pm

Sin é wrote:
Talent may emerge, but they are not there yet. Ireland are playing a very limited style of (winning) rugby now. Not so sure how far it can go.

I agree sin - I think we have a larger pool of decent player, but less top class ones...however we have a much better coach getting more out of less.

I think if Kidney or EOS were in charge now we'd be in trouble as we don't have the same individual talent and match winners in the side.

Rory agree Henderson is a great talent, my point is on the depth. If Donnacha Ryan and Dan Touhy were fit it would look a bit better but at the minute Toner and POC are the only international standard locks available, and POC is 35.

by asoreleftshoulder Fri 23 Jan 2015, 8:26 pm

rodders wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Talent may emerge, but they are not there yet. Ireland are playing a very limited style of (winning) rugby now. Not so sure how far it can go.

I agree sin - I think we have a larger pool of decent player, but less top class ones...however we have a much better coach getting more out of less.

I think if Kidney or EOS were in charge now we'd be in trouble as we don't have the same individual talent and match winners in the side.

Rory agree Henderson is a great talent, my point is on the depth. If Donnacha Ryan and Dan Touhy were fit it would look a bit better but at the minute Toner and POC are the only international standard locks available, and POC is 35.

I disagree we have Healy,SoB,Murray and Sexton who would all be in with a shout of making any team in the world.When have we ever had that kind of talent before.Bod,PoC,Wallace and Ferris at their best maybe but other than that we've never had as many top class players augmented by a large number of international class players.

by **rodders** Sat 24 Jan 2015, 9:56 am

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
rodders wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Talent may emerge, but they are not there yet. Ireland are playing a very limited style of (winning) rugby now. Not so sure how far it can go.

I agree sin - I think we have a larger pool of decent player, but less top class ones...however we have a much better coach getting more out of less.

I think if Kidney or EOS were in charge now we'd be in trouble as we don't have the same individual talent and match winners in the side.

Rory agree Henderson is a great talent, my point is on the depth. If Donnacha Ryan and Dan Touhy were fit it would look a bit better but at the minute Toner and POC are the only international standard locks available, and POC is 35.

I disagree we have Healy,SoB,Murray and Sexton who would all be in with a shout of making any team in the world.When have we ever had that kind of talent before.Bod,PoC,Wallace and Ferris at their best maybe but other than that we've never had as many top class players augmented by a large number of international class players.

SOB, Healy and Sexton are as good as any players we've had - no question, Murray is getting there too.

However the teams we had in the early to mid naughties, player for player were stronger imo - certainly the 1st 20-30 players. We could afford to leave out people like Bob Casey, Leo Cullen, Keith Gleeson, Geordan Murphy, Shane Jennings, Neil Best, Trevor Brennan etc. Tommy Bowe and Heaslip didn't even make the 2007 RWC squad,and Ferris didn't play a game - albeit all improved a lot thereafter.

by geoff999rugby Sat 24 Jan 2015, 10:11 am

Heaslip was only 24 in 2007
Ferris was only 22

Bowe didn't make the squad only because of a terrible selection of a blow in Aussie, forget his name, who proved to be a damp squib.

I would not have Neil Best or Trevor Brennan anywhere near the squad even now.
Both overrated and both, as people, complete bumholes

by **Notch** Sat 24 Jan 2015, 10:48 am

geoff999rugby wrote:Bowe didn't make the squad only because of a terrible selection of a blow in Aussie, forget his name, who proved to be a damp squib.

Brian Carney. Great call that one.

Not an Aussie though, a Rugby League convert who was from Cork.

by geoff999rugby Mon 02 Mar 2015, 2:08 pm

You are spot on Notch - he was still a blow in in terms of joining the Union game and a unsuccessful one at that.
Should have been nowhere near the squad terrible decision.

In other news I see Nacewa is going to play again for Leinster next year

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