Pro 12 = SPL?

I mentioned a while ago that I think that the Pro 12 currently is at the equilivent of the SPL in the late 90's early 00's. The big teams could still attract the top players and were a match to th ebest sides in the English Prem league. However in the years since the Prem League sides have got richer and the SPL poor to now the top SPL sides are about Championship standard.

How can the Pro 12 prevent this slide? We don't want to talk about the days that the Proviences were the top sides in Europe, the same way Celtic fans mention 68, and the UEFA Cup final.

So two points for Discussion.

1) Can the Pro 12 keep up with at least the top English clubs (never mind France)?, new sky deal, increased sponsorship etc are all helping, but can our different funding model improve enough?

2) If the Pro 12 is a sinking ship, should we push for a British and Irish League? and if we can't should the Provinces on our own push for inclusion now while our stock is still high?

Problem is in the existing market there is no incentive for the AP to change. I am sure circumstances might change, but I just don't know how they could change to allow the creation of a B&I league.

There is of course a cyclical nature to sport. I don't think a couple of bad years means the end of the Irish being a very strong force in European rugby, and it has generally been an exceptional year so far for the AP. At the same time at least one scottish team are competitive. Wales teams too may improve now the most recent civil war has died down.

I reckon playing style has gone too much about running rugby this year in the league which cost teams in these tough winter months. Not enough emphasis is being put in the basics of rugby ie scrum, lineout drive etc...

If rugby was being played in summer we would see much greater results but it isn't.

My thoughts personally are that over the next ten years the Pro 12 cannot keep up.

For it to have had a chance we really needed it to have really taken off in Wales as much as Ireland. If the Welsh teams were getting full houses and good media coverage then it would maybe have a chance, but at this stage its not going to generate enough intrest to keep it viable, in the two main markets that it needed too.

So it bring me to point two should we push for a British and Irish League?, I have to say yes, its the only way the teams in Ireland and Britian can keep up with the French.

Would the English be happy to have an extra 10 teams join, prob not, but what about just four?
Personally I would never have thought about this before as I would have liked the Celtic Unions to stick together, but after the European Cup talks the way the Welsh clubs pushed to join the Aviva and the SRU were the first to break ranks and accept the agreement. I think the IRFU will be now more on the lookout for themselves and could conceivablely enter talks for just the Provices to enter the new league?

Ideally I would like there to be a world wide workable salary cap, this would allow th ebest southern Hemp players to stay in NZ, Aus, SA, and allow the Pro 12 Aviva and Top 14 to all operate on a level playing field. It would be a little like American Football whereby keeping everyone competative and hence selling an overall better product in the most important thing.

However I think this is unlikely and I feel that now is the right time to enter talks about a British and Irish League, and if this fails to then talk about the Provinces joining the Aviva.

Think alot of things would have to change before PRL would welcome the Irish Provinces. eg Salary cap, Union influence to start with.

I don't think its like comparing the SPL to the English premiership. For starters the Pro12 is made of 4 countries instead of 1. Soccer is a world wide game and the English premiership is the most popular league in the world. You you have the worlds most popular soccer league taking in money from around the world and next to that is Scotland. Rugby is only popular in a few countries and most neutral countries would probably watch the Top14 or super rugby.

Rugby is also different than soccer especially the way to Pro 12 is run. Its tied in with international rugby so that money helps to keep it going.

Also a difference is the number of games over a season. Soccer clubs can play a lot more games than rugby clubs.

broadlandboy wrote:Think alot of things would have to change before PRL would welcome the Irish Provinces. eg Salary cap, Union influence to start with.

Depends on the TV companies. They're the ones running the show, not the PRL. Money is king nowadays.

I agree money is king and that is why the AP would have zero interest in sharing any of theirs. The further down the PRO12 sides go the easier it becomes to attract money to the AP. Less competition in Europe means a greater chance of winning and getting cheap player imports from the failing small countries.

The AP is only interested in competing against the French so a B&I league will never happen.

Well I started a discussion thread the other day comparing the pro 12 and the Ap - and much to mine and I guess others surprise there was little in quality between the leagues.

Of course money talks and the change to the euro cup was designed to increase money and kudo for the english clubs. I guess it suits your narrative to put the pro 12 down. Makes you feel better for the dirty deeds over the Euro cup Shame its a load of bollox wioth no foundation in any sort of reality. Its tiresome quite frankly

Pro 12 is winning more than its share especially given the greed and financial stupidity of some english and french clubs. No one want to play with the english. We don't want to rely on benefactors throwing money away. We don't want our clubs to rule the international game.

Note no Pro 12 fans are agreeing with you

the english refused a all europe league when they had a chance. Stop trying to find a way to wreck the best league in Europe. We like it. We don't like your attempts to justify running the whole show. No pro 12 team wants to play in England

I love the PRO12 I think it is a breath of fresh air, the only thing holding it back is the substandard refereeing, also, with this new TV deal the French have just signed I think we should all worry about their spending power. If anything, it's the new euro comp I am finding a little tedious, there are too many games between French and English clubs, French against French and English against English to make it anything special anymore.

Hold on, since when have the Irish teams struggled compared to the English teams financially? We will have ALL our internationals playing Ireland from next season and there is not one English club that could afford to pluck the likes of Sexton from Leinster. Even Hanrahan would have stayed if Foley had done the right thing and had him as a regular starter all season.

The only ones to fear are the top French teams. Even the AP clubs fear them, that is why they pushed for this new Euro cup and the increased salary cap. As of right now however we can more than compete with the English teams financially.

TJ wrote:Well I started a discussion thread the other day comparing the pro 12 and the Ap - and much to mine and I guess others surprise there was little in quality between the leagues.

Of course money talks and the change to the euro cup was designed to increase money and kudo for the english clubs.  I guess it suits your narrative to put the pro 12 down.  Makes you feel better for the dirty deeds over the Euro cup  Shame its a load of bollox wioth no foundation in any sort of reality.  Its tiresome quite frankly

Pro 12 is winning more than its share especially given the greed and financial stupidity of some english and french clubs.  No one want to play with the english.  We don't want to rely on benefactors throwing money away.  We don't want our clubs to rule the international game.

Note no Pro 12 fans are agreeing with you

the english refused a all europe league when they had a chance.  Stop trying to find a way to wreck the best league in Europe.  We like it.  We don't like your attempts to justify running the whole show.  No pro 12 team wants to play in England

Out of curiosity - who are you referring to when you say "I guess it suits your narrative.." - the OP, someone else?

Who are you speaking for when you say "no one wants to play with the english" - whatever that means...

It suits the narrative of those desperately trying to justify damaging the euro cup so that English clubs have a better chance of qualifying even in a devalued competition. For some of us there are things more important than money

You might get a few welsh fans wanting to play in a league with the english. No one else does. Why dilute the superior product that we have in the pro 12?

The Pro 12 as a league doesn't have the ability to earn as much money as the T14 or English Premiership. That is the crux of it.

Both those leagues top teams could raise the cost of the game double if they were allowed to.

That said most clubs in England and France do not make a profit and half the clubs in the leagues can't afford the current wage cap.

A number of club directors in France have complained that their league is won by money and similar is happening in England too.

Steve Diamond accuses some clubs of cheating the wage cap by over £2M whilst stating his club can't afford the current Wage cap.

It increases next year.

i can't see happiness and unity in the future for either league.

TJ wrote:It suits the narrative of those desperately trying to justify damaging the euro cup so that English clubs have a better chance of qualifying even in a devalued competition.  For some of us there are things more important than money

You might get a  few welsh fans wanting to play in a league with the english.  No one else does.  Why dilute the superior product that we have in the pro 12?

You said earlier that the quality between was largely similar between the two leagues. Quick turnaround!

Are you able to post without getting so angry and emotional?

I'd always want to keep the AP as an English clubs competition. As soon as you start to look at a British and Irish league the Euro Cup losing a lot of significance.

LordDowlais wrote:If anything, it's the new euro comp I am finding a little tedious, there are too many games between French and English clubs, French against French and English against English to make it anything special anymore.

I find the Pro12 vs Pro12 fixtures less interesting too. All round though, this revamped competition has had a lot of top-drawer games, especially with sides turning around their fortunes after a poor start.

Also the pro 12 has wider interests at heart that the owners bank accounts. Are you really wanting to cast the Italians adrift? Thats a b#very poor position to take

"Why dilute the superior product that we have in the pro 12?" should have had a wink smiley to show I was taking the urine

TJ wrote:Also the pro 12 has wider interests at heart that the owners bank accounts.  Are you really wanting to cast the Italians adrift?  Thats a b#very poor position to take

I'm not sure that the Pro12 sides are any more altruistic than the French or English. They band together in a league because they need to, not having enough "regions" to go it alone. The Irish and Welsh are not in it for the good of the Scots/Italians.

That the Italians had to pay a big wodge of cash for the 'benefit' of being in the Pro12 should tell you that.

Not nessasarily more altruistic no - but they do take a wider view. the payment the Italians used to make was inequitable for sure - but in the early days of the pro 12 some teams would have not been viable once the costs of playing in Italy were added. However the Pro 12 also looks after the interests of the players better in many cases, helps development of home players and most importantly does not put the interests of the clubs ahead of the national teams.