How can the Pro12 go the next level?

First topic message reminder :

Regardless of what anyone says about the quality of the league, I believe it is the best but I'm biased, the whole product seems to be suffering and there isn't the cash to prevent the exodus of players to France and England. This article sums it up better than I ever could so if you wish give it a read http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby/latest/iain-morrison-cap-won-t-stop-celtic-exodus-1-3670331


I don't think we are in the doomsday scenario that the article predicts, the Irish are suffering a momentary blip but still have three quality teams, the Welsh seems to be curbing the exodus, Glasgow are on the verge of outgrowing Scotstoun and Edinburgh are showing signs of improvement (and I think the academies in Scotland could make a real difference long term) . The less said about the Italians currently the better.

The options I would propose are that we add in another Welsh team and another Scottish team and remove the Italians. They can't be much worse and they'd result in more derbies which would help the broadcasters, make it more tribal and increase interest. The negatives are that it would damage Italian rugby and the Italians are unlikely to agree with it, what I would suggest alternatively is that we introduce a new league and drop down to a ten team top division meaning fewer games in the top division allowing smaller squads with higher quality players and competitive games all year round and start a second division and introduce a play off between top team from Division 2 and the bottom from Division 1 so we don't end up with a London Welsh situation

TJ wrote:I think the issue in 'Wales is the infighting and tribalism - that I simply do not understand. t he Por 12 is the only game in town for the welsh teams

No it's not.

Risca Rev wrote:How is it clear as day? Because you say so? Staggering arrogance.

It is clear as day because not as many people are going to the games to watch it as they used to.

Care to back that up?

LordDowlais wrote:

TJ wrote:I think the issue in 'Wales is the infighting and tribalism - that I simply do not understand. t he Por 12 is the only game in town for the welsh teams

No it's not.

What else are you going to do? go back to a welsh league? Nothing else is open to you.

Risca Rev wrote:Care to back that up?

We had a huge debate on another thread about attendances, didn't we ? I am not going through that again.

TJ wrote:What else are you going to do? go back to a welsh league? Nothing else is open to you.

For some people that is still what they are doing.

Then you get the issues of dilution of talent ie your 50 or so quality players spread more thinly amongst 12 teams not 4 or if you concentrate them all in a small number of teams those teams will win all the time. if you spread the talent widely then no team will be competitive in Europe.

TJ wrote:Then you get the issues of dilution of talent ie your 50 or so quality players spread more thinly  amongst 12 teams not 4 or if you concentrate them all in a small number of teams those teams will win all the time.  if you spread the talent widely then no team will be competitive in Europe.

Talk is, to go back to our club structure, and put the regions in Europe.

I laughed that off as stupid at first, but now the thought has become a lot more appealing.

LordDowlais wrote:

TJ wrote:Then you get the issues of dilution of talent ie your 50 or so quality players spread more thinly  amongst 12 teams not 4 or if you concentrate them all in a small number of teams those teams will win all the time.  if you spread the talent widely then no team will be competitive in Europe.

Talk is, to go back to our club structure, and put the regions in Europe.

I laughed that off as stupid at first, but now the thought has become a lot more appealing.

It is stupid.

LordDowlais wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:Care to back that up?

We had a huge debate on another thread about attendances, didn't we ? I am not going through that again.

There was no debate. You wouldn't accept opposing views. That thread had no substance to it.

Back up your claims, or stop peddling them.

So in Europe you would play a team that was put together in a couple of weeks with players who are not use to playing with each other - thats really going to help. I can't see anyone agreeing to that anyway - look how hard the PRL fought to get you to have to qualify thru league position and given the resentment amongst the rest of the pro 12 for the way the welsh changed sides over Europe meaning the PRL got their way and the further resentment if you ruin the pro 12 who is going to support you? I guess the PRL might be happy with weakening further the opposition they face in Europe but no one else is going to support that surely?

I think you are still trying to fight a battle that is over. personally I think the whole structure would have been better in both Scotland and Wales if the existing clubs had been used as a basis and accept the fact that a few clubs would always be the strongest in the leagues but that battle is over long ago.

Risca Rev wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:Care to back that up?

We had a huge debate on another thread about attendances, didn't we ? I am not going through that again.

There was no debate. You wouldn't accept opposing views. That thread had no substance to it.

Back up your claims, or stop peddling them.

Firstly I did accept others points of view, I agreed with Griff umpteen times, but he just kept bringing the same subject up as an argument agains my point of view. Anyway, I am not doing this again.

TJ wrote:I think you are still trying to fight a battle that is over.  personally I think the whole structure would have been better in both Scotland and Wales if the existing clubs had been used as a basis and accept the fact that a few clubs would always be the strongest in the leagues but that battle is over long ago.

I agree with this. Too late now of course, 10+ years down the track. And we're talking with the benefit of hindsight here. But for what it's worth my approach in 2002/3 would have been to 'award' 4 or 5 pro franchise/licences (maybe franchise is the wrong word?) for Welsh clubs that would allow them to compete as the pro representatives of Wales in the Celtic league and European cups. The 10 or so clubs in the old welsh league would have had to put together a bid to get a licence and present to the powers that be. I guess then the clubs with the best business case, turnover, potential, facilities, etc., etc. would have been successful. Yes, there would be arguments that some would miss out. But at least the reasons would be fairly transparent. A number of clubs missed out (sort of) with regional rugby, but for different reasons. One caveat of this proposal would be either a time frame for review of licences or performance related, i.e. if you're Newport RFC and you're a shower of sh*te in the celtic league/europe then we take your licence away and you go back to the welsh prem and the other teams can put forward their business case based on the above and take your place. This way we get the benefits of the club game (allegiances, attendances, ownership without union meddling, etc.) but also he benefits of reducing the number of pro teams to a more sustainable number (the original premise behind regional rugby). AND it gives a glimmer of hope to the ones left out.

I would have kept the existing leagues and simply entered the top teams from the league into the euro cup and let the cream rise - it would have meant the best players being more widely spread but after a few years the best players would have ended up in the top teams which would have been a self perpetuating elite

Welsh Magician wrote:

Shifty wrote:

profitius wrote:

Shifty wrote:It's a rubbish product from top to bottom.  Welsh fans have voted with their feet already.  

Can you back that up with attendance figures?

All I know is according to some Welsh the league is sh!t and dragging them down. Not the other way around!  

The Italians, Scots and Irish just get on with it and have been making progress.

Yes the Ospreys are losing about 750 fans per season in terms of attendances, and that's despite them giving season tickets away.

There are no free season tickets, not even children have free season tickets.

Children U16 should get in for nowt with an accompanying adult I reckon. Say 2 kids per grown up would be my initial suggestion. All 4 pro sides should introduce this policy I believe. Used to be "kids for a quid" at CCS. Why they bothered charging a quid is beyond me.

I agree with the kids thing - you need to get the kids coming - turn a kid into a fan and he will follow your team for life - so get them in for free ( unless you sell out your stadium) and build for the future.

Newport RFC used to have a 'get in for free at half time' policy! Never quite understood that one, but there you go.

Kids for free would be great. Again, I'm sure Newport or the Dragons used to do it if memory serves (under 16). Not sure now though?

Edinburgh has a 67000 seat stadium. Everyone remark how poor the atmosphere is with 4000 in it. Bums on seats - get folk used to going to the matches. £5 for adults, kids go free. Probably wouldn't be a lot less total money by the time they buy programmes and a burger each.

Griff wrote:Newport RFC used to have a 'get in for free at half time' policy! Never quite understood that one, but there you go.

Kids for free would be great. Again, I'm sure Newport or the Dragons used to do it if memory serves (under 16). Not sure now though?

Nor me. Add it to the bonkers list I guess.

Griff wrote:Newport RFC used to have a 'get in for free at half time' policy! Never quite understood that one, but there you go.

Kids for free would be great. Again, I'm sure Newport or the Dragons used to do it if memory serves (under 16). Not sure now though?

Dragons still have it now, if you go for a fag at halftime by the changing room end of the Hazell

Scarlets v Cardiff - announced as a 4pm Sunday kick off.

That means I've already made my final trip to Parc y Scarlets already this season.

Truly pathetic league.

Chunky Norwich wrote:Scarlets v Cardiff - announced as a 4pm Sunday kick off.

That means I've already made my final trip to Parc y Scarlets already this season.

Truly pathetic league.

Sure nobody turns up at the Parc y Scarlets on a saturday so they may as well see what a Sunday is like.

I thought we were trying to make this rancid league better, not shrug our shoulders?

I suppose it's fine for your lot, so you don't care.

Munster played on a Sunday yet?

What channel is it on out of interest?

s4c

Is Sunday the issue?

SecretFly wrote:Is Sunday the issue?

Simple answer is Yes.

The Scarlets have the most remote region of the Welsh, and we have the worst transport links. Travelling to a Sunday game on the train is not an option due to the train times. And also as the Scarlets are also representing one of the least well of areas of wales, a vast number of supporters have to move away for work, meaning they are living in England etc. So again a Sunday game means that they either need to take the Monday off or turn up to work knackered the following day.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
The Scarlets have the most remote region of the Welsh, and we have the worst transport links.  Travelling to a Sunday game on the train is not an option due to the train times.  And also as the Scarlets are also representing one of the least well of areas of wales, a vast number of supporters have to move away for work, meaning they are living in England etc.  So again a Sunday game means that they either need to take the Monday off or turn up to work knackered the following day.

It's a 100 mile round trip for me to get to a home game in Llanelli. 4pm on a Sunday for anybody with a family is just a nightmare.

Have Munster played on a Sunday yet?

It seems that this Sunday game issue is down to a specific Welsh broadcaster catering for casual fans with free to air rugby, in defiance of the needs of fans who travel to games.

I think it certainly needs reviewed and rethought, but I think the issue is not so much scheduling as it is broadcasters wielding too much influence over when games are played. This is as true for S4C on Sundays as it is for BBC NI on Fridays (although Friday night games are generally popular, they are not popular for those who live well outside Belfast). The broadcaster have their preferred time slots and they get what they want.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
The Scarlets have the most remote region of the Welsh, and we have the worst transport links.  Travelling to a Sunday game on the train is not an option due to the train times.  And also as the Scarlets are also representing one of the least well of areas of wales, a vast number of supporters have to move away for work, meaning they are living in England etc.  So again a Sunday game means that they either need to take the Monday off or turn up to work knackered the following day.

It's a 100 mile round trip for me to get to a home game in Llanelli. 4pm on a Sunday for anybody with a family is just a nightmare.

Have Munster played on a Sunday yet?

Haha I win, I got a 120 mile trip (plus a detour to collect my dad). I missed the Edinburgh game cos I was in Norwich, I was gutted when I didn't see you there.

Notch wrote: This is as true for S4C on Sundays as it is for BBC NI on Fridays (although Friday night games are generally popular, they are not popular for those who live well outside Belfast).

No it's not. Because:

a) The 1 team that is broadcast by BBC NI is ecstatic with the slot it has
b) There are too many televised games full stop. The whole tv deal is terrible. If this game wasn't televised I'd likely be able to make it, and many others I guess.

Notch wrote:It seems that this Sunday game issue is down to a specific Welsh broadcaster catering for casual fans with free to air rugby, in defiance of the needs of fans who travel to games.

I think it certainly needs reviewed and rethought, but I think the issue is not so much scheduling as it is broadcasters wielding too much influence over when games are played. This is as true for S4C on Sundays as it is for BBC NI on Fridays (although Friday night games are generally popular, they are not popular for those who live well outside Belfast).

I believe the Scarlets did request as many Saturday late afternoon/evening games as possible at the start of the season. Can't say where I heard it though, im not the best at remembering things.

Maybe it would work best if all the teams tell the league when suits them best and then the tv and league set fixtures as close as possible to that?

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Haha I win, I got a 120 mile trip (plus a detour to collect my dad).  I missed the Edinburgh game cos I was in Norwich, I was gutted when I didn't see you there.

Fair play, that would have been a trek.

Whilst not as difficult to get to the Dragons have had the worst run of Sunday games.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Whilst not as difficult to get to the Dragons have had the worst run of Sunday games.

Presumably because BBC Wales get 1st choice of game.

Sunday games at all and every level should be banned I hate them.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Is Sunday the issue?

Simple answer is Yes.  

The Scarlets have the most remote region of the Welsh, and we have the worst transport links.  Travelling to a Sunday game on the train is not an option due to the train times.  And also as the Scarlets are also representing one of the least well of areas of wales, a vast number of supporters have to move away for work, meaning they are living in England etc.  So again a Sunday game means that they either need to take the Monday off or turn up to work knackered the following day.

I can sympathise with the schedules and transportation Scarlet. But it's just I was a little confused, considering there have been games on other Sundays through the Pro12 involving other sides. And in AP, they have their Sunday games too. So I was just wondering, yet again, why it would be a defined issue with Pro12.

Should the Scarlets as a side not realise the efforts the fans have to make and reject Sunday games? They've only had two all season though, if my quick look up is right.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Notch wrote: This is as true for S4C on Sundays as it is for BBC NI on Fridays (although Friday night games are generally popular, they are not popular for those who live well outside Belfast).

No it's not. Because:

a) The 1 team that is broadcast by BBC NI is ecstatic with the slot it has
b) There are too many televised games full stop. The whole tv deal is terrible. If this game wasn't televised I'd likely be able to make it, and many others I guess.

Thats all besides the point. The point is that BBC NI wants Friday nights so they get Friday nights. S4C wants Sunday afternoons so they get Sunday afternoon. Sky wants Saturday afternoons so they get Saturday afternoons.

I'm happy with Friday nights and so are most Ulster fans, but if you go and talk to people interested in attending games who live in Donegal I daresay you'll find a different story. If BBC NI decided to change slots nothing would be done to stop them either.

SecretFly wrote:

Should the Scarlets as a side not realise the efforts the fans have to make and reject Sunday games?  They've only had two all season though, if my quick look up is right.

The point is that it's a Welsh derby. The crowd will be massively affected by this kick off time. There are normally a good Cardiff contingent down, this won't be the case now.

Of the 12 Welsh derbies this season, just 4 will have been played on a Saturday. And that includes the 2 at the Millennium stadium. That is a joke.

Notch wrote: The point is that BBC NI wants Friday nights so they get Friday nights. S4C wants Sunday afternoons so they get Sunday afternoon. Sky wants Saturday afternoons so they get Saturday afternoons.

Which all means that every weekend, AT LEAST 2 of the matches involving Welsh teams will not be on a Saturday.

Chunky,

I don't always agree with you or some of your views on the league but for once in this instance I agree 110% having a Welsh derby game in any other slot than prime time so to attract as many paying fans is senseless.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Chunky,

I don't always agree with you or some of your views on the league but for once in this instance I agree 110% having a Welsh derby game in any other slot than prime time so to attract as many paying fans is senseless.

cheers. It's madness and is only getting worse not better.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Should the Scarlets as a side not realise the efforts the fans have to make and reject Sunday games?  They've only had two all season though, if my quick look up is right.

The point is that it's a Welsh derby. The crowd will be massively affected by this kick off time. There are normally a good Cardiff contingent down, this won't be the case now.

Of the 12 Welsh derbies this season, just 4 will have been played on a Saturday. And that includes the 2 at the Millennium stadium. That is a joke.

Maybe it is a joke. But as is being said here by others - it seems someone somewhere wants Sunday games. Given that it would be mostly Welsh fans tuning in/or turning up to watch a Welsh derby (others of course but mostly Welsh) then you'd question why the teams and the TV people haven't reached a settlement pleasing to their fan base?
Maybe the TV people think its better to have Welsh fans tuning in than turning up? Intriguing but again, the teams themselves would have to be the ones with the fans best interests at heart and reject such dates at the beginning of the year.

SecretFly wrote:  Given that it would be mostly Welsh fans tuning in/or turning up to watch a Welsh derby (others of course but mostly Welsh) then you'd question why the teams and the TV people haven't reached a settlement pleasing to their fan base?

You know who signed this deal off right?

the teams themselves would have to be the ones with the fans best interests at heart and reject such dates at the beginning of the year.

Eh? The Scarlets have just tweeted to apologise to fans about this kick off saying it is out of their hands.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:  Given that it would be mostly Welsh fans tuning in/or turning up to watch a Welsh derby (others of course but mostly Welsh) then you'd question why the teams and the TV people haven't reached a settlement pleasing to their fan base?

You know who signed this deal off right?

the teams themselves would have to be the ones with the fans best interests at heart and reject such dates at the beginning of the year.

Eh? The Scarlets have just tweeted to apologise to fans about this kick off saying it is out of their hands.

Because I live on the wrong side of the bridge a Friday or ideally Saturday time slot would be best for me that way I tend to make a weekend of it and if all goes well tie in going to watch Ebbw as well.

Having seen how many Sunday games the Dragons have this season I wrote to the club asking why, the answer was something similar in that they have no choice. It seems the TV companies have far to much power and almost dictate what games will take place where and as TV money is vitally important I guess teams can't or are afraid to say no to them.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:  Given that it would be mostly Welsh fans tuning in/or turning up to watch a Welsh derby (others of course but mostly Welsh) then you'd question why the teams and the TV people haven't reached a settlement pleasing to their fan base?

You know who signed this deal off right?

the teams themselves would have to be the ones with the fans best interests at heart and reject such dates at the beginning of the year.

Eh? The Scarlets have just tweeted to apologise to fans about this kick off saying it is out of their hands.

Hmmmm............... to the first bit  

...and kinda hmmmmm to the second bit too now that I think about it.

I guess Leinster are in the same position considering their game in two weeks.  Out of their hands that the fans have to get planes over and back and then maybe back over the next morning if they work in England!!!  Not much drink and rest time there either.

14 teams, bring in London Welsh and London Scottish, get rid of the LV crap so the PRL can get their 14 teams league too.

VinceWLB wrote:14 teams, bring in London Welsh and London Scottish, get rid of the LV crap so the PRL can get their 14 teams league too.

Their Union isn't involved in the celtic league so they can't play in it.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Scarlets v Cardiff - announced as a 4pm Sunday kick off.

That means I've already made my final trip to Parc y Scarlets already this season.

Truly pathetic league.

Sure nobody turns up at the Parc y Scarlets on a saturday so they may as well see what a Sunday is like.

In excess of 9k last season for the same fixture. And it was the last Pro12 game, so not much to play for either IIRC.
I'd say that if this fixture was scheduled around about mid season say and on Sat afternoon, new Stradey would be chocca.