How can the Pro12 go the next level?

First topic message reminder :

Regardless of what anyone says about the quality of the league, I believe it is the best but I'm biased, the whole product seems to be suffering and there isn't the cash to prevent the exodus of players to France and England. This article sums it up better than I ever could so if you wish give it a read http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby/latest/iain-morrison-cap-won-t-stop-celtic-exodus-1-3670331


I don't think we are in the doomsday scenario that the article predicts, the Irish are suffering a momentary blip but still have three quality teams, the Welsh seems to be curbing the exodus, Glasgow are on the verge of outgrowing Scotstoun and Edinburgh are showing signs of improvement (and I think the academies in Scotland could make a real difference long term) . The less said about the Italians currently the better.

The options I would propose are that we add in another Welsh team and another Scottish team and remove the Italians. They can't be much worse and they'd result in more derbies which would help the broadcasters, make it more tribal and increase interest. The negatives are that it would damage Italian rugby and the Italians are unlikely to agree with it, what I would suggest alternatively is that we introduce a new league and drop down to a ten team top division meaning fewer games in the top division allowing smaller squads with higher quality players and competitive games all year round and start a second division and introduce a play off between top team from Division 2 and the bottom from Division 1 so we don't end up with a London Welsh situation

SecretFly wrote:  Are the IRISH behind the Welsh Sunday Game virus???  Straight answer.  DO THE IRISH DEMAND WELSH SUNDAY GAMES?

No

I don't buy into the conspiracy thing some others on here claim to (to be honest I don't believe they actually believe it either; it's more an angle for a good bit of wumming and arguing against a league they don't like for other reasons!). And I mean that sincerely. I like the league and I wish it could work out well for all involved. However, whenever these discussions come up (this is probably thread 10+ in the history of old and new 606) the much held view is that the 'Welsh need to get their house in order'. When we try to do something about it (and 'do something about it' on a message board means discussion and suggestions mainly) we seem to be met with fire. We suggest that Sundays are affecting our attendances. 'Suck it up, ya big Jessies. We have our preferred Friday games and we f*cking love it!' We suggest that we need to look at funding to match the Irish - 'stop whingeing, your Union gives you enough, ya feckers'. A change to the refereeing allocation 'They think it's a conspiracy, the feckers'. But all of these things - better attendances, better funding for the Welsh, better refereeing resources (bigger pool, outside refs) - would improve our league for everyone.

I wonder sometimes if it is in the Irish interests to pretend to want a strong welsh contingent, but in fact want the opposite? Of course this will bring out the Irish 606 battle cry of 'Conspiracy!', but genuinely - do you want the Welsh to be better? With bigger crowds? With better players? With more funds at their disposal? If so, and I hope you do from a purely rugby development point of view, then you have to let the discussion happen about how to improve our league from a Welsh point of view. That means discussing changes that may not be in Irish interests. But if it betters the league???

I have always considered the Irish to be astute business people. I mean, man for man they seem to have a nous for business greater than that of the average Welshman, IMO. And I am 100% confident that if the Pro12 was not working out for the Irish provinces then the big wigs at the provinces, the bigwigs at the IRFU, the fans on here, would be suggesting changes that the other Pro12 nations may not like but which would help the Irish compete better in the league and grow their franchises, make them more successful. I'm certain of it. Us Welsh are in that boat now. We're in a league that we're not doing very well in. Historically only one side has been successful in it. We're struggling in Europe. We struggle to get fans interested in watching it. You, the Pro12 partners, are calling for us to get our house in order. So we must have these discussions. And these ideas shouldn't be met with such ire. Some ideas will be gash, some will be controversial, but perhaps eventually we'll strike on something that will be workable and mutually beneficial to all (in the long run).

Good Chunky.  So wherever the 'Irish bias' is coming from it ain't under the direction of the Irish.  Who else is under suspicion??  WRU?  BBC?  SKY? Regions?  
Someone somewhere wants a stack of Sunday games for Welsh regions.  Now the only reason any of those suspects might want that scenario is because it.............. drum roll!.......... makes money?

Somewhere somehow, those Sunday Welsh games are considered to be bigger money makers than non-Sunday games.  So follow the trail of the money and find out why Sunday games are working for someone somewhere.

Griff wrote:I don't buy into the conspiracy thing some others on here claim to (to be honest I don't believe they actually believe it either; it's more an angle for a good bit of wumming and arguing against a league they don't like for other reasons!).  And I mean that sincerely.  I like the league and I wish it could work out well for all involved.  However, whenever these discussions come up (this is probably thread 10+ in the history of old and new 606) the much held view is that the 'Welsh need to get their house in order'.  When we try to do something about it (and 'do something about it' on a message board means discussion and suggestions mainly) we seem to be met with fire.  We suggest that Sundays are affecting our attendances.  'Suck it up, ya big Jessies.  We have our preferred Friday games and we f*cking love it!' We suggest that we need to look at funding to match the Irish - 'stop whingeing, your Union gives you enough, ya feckers'.  A change to the refereeing allocation 'They think it's a conspiracy, the feckers'.  But all of these things - better attendances, better funding for the Welsh, better refereeing resources (bigger pool, outside refs) - would improve our league for everyone.  

I wonder sometimes if it is in the Irish interests to pretend to want a strong welsh contingent, but in fact want the opposite?  Of course this will bring out the Irish 606 battle cry of 'Conspiracy!', but genuinely - do you want the Welsh to be better?  With bigger crowds?  With better players?  With more funds at their disposal?  If so, and I hope you do from a purely rugby development point of view, then you have to let the discussion happen about how to improve our league from a Welsh point of view.  That means discussing changes that may not be in Irish interests.  But if it betters the league???  

I have always considered the Irish to be astute business people.  I mean, man for man they seem to have a nous for business greater than that of the average Welshman, IMO.  And I am 100% confident that if the Pro12 was not working out for the Irish provinces then the big wigs at the provinces, the bigwigs at the IRFU, the fans on here, would be suggesting changes that the other Pro12 nations may not like but which would help the Irish compete better in the league and grow their franchises, make them more successful.  I'm certain of it.  Us Welsh are in that boat now.  We're in a league that we're not doing very well in.  Historically only one side has been successful in it.  We're struggling in Europe.  We struggle to get fans interested in watching it.  You, the Pro12 partners, are calling for us to get our house in order.  So we must have these discussions.  And these ideas shouldn't be met with such ire.  Some ideas will be gash, some will be controversial, but perhaps eventually we'll strike on something that will be workable and mutually beneficial to all (in the long run).

An excellent post that answers many of the questions raised.

This is what I don't understand.  We're all partners in this league together.  If one partner says 'we don't like Sunday games, the crowds are poor and they don't suit us, etc.' then in a normal, rational relationship the response I would expect would be along the lines 'Ummm, I see.  Well, yes this doesn't sound good.  You should look at changing that my friend'.  Instead we get 110 reasons why we should   embrace Sunday games and just suck it up.  Why are we at war over this?  What do you have against our teams playing on a Friday or Saturday if it suits us better?!

The way I see things are that the Irish populace need to be kept interested, why ? Because the big companies that sponsor our league are Irish, Magners, Rabo, Guinness, yes I know Guinness is run from London but it is part of Ireland, but to keep these people ploughing money into the league, they need the people to still be interested in it. Now to keep the people interested you need the teams to be shown at peak times, Friday night, Saturday evening, and you need to have the teams at the top, nobody likes to watch a losing side, so that is why in my opinion why the league is geared up to support the Irish sides.

Unfortunately, there are no big multinational companies in Wales that could sponsor our league, perhaps Brains Brewery, but they are only big in Wales, Go compare , the only others I could think of would be one of the Scottish Whiskey firms, or one of the Italian car manufactures, but as long as we are only getting the interest from Irish companies, the league will continue to be geared to favour the Irish provinces and their fans. Of course I could be miles wide of the mark, as I am sure people like SecreFly will point out to me, but that is what I think.

Griff wrote:I don't buy into the conspiracy thing some others on here claim to (to be honest I don't believe they actually believe it either; it's more an angle for a good bit of wumming and arguing against a league they don't like for other reasons!).  And I mean that sincerely.  I like the league and I wish it could work out well for all involved.  However, whenever these discussions come up (this is probably thread 10+ in the history of old and new 606) the much held view is that the 'Welsh need to get their house in order'.  When we try to do something about it (and 'do something about it' on a message board means discussion and suggestions mainly) we seem to be met with fire.  We suggest that Sundays are affecting our attendances.  'Suck it up, ya big Jessies.  We have our preferred Friday games and we f*cking love it!' We suggest that we need to look at funding to match the Irish - 'stop whingeing, your Union gives you enough, ya feckers'.  A change to the refereeing allocation 'They think it's a conspiracy, the feckers'.  But all of these things - better attendances, better funding for the Welsh, better refereeing resources (bigger pool, outside refs) - would improve our league for everyone.  

I wonder sometimes if it is in the Irish interests to pretend to want a strong welsh contingent, but in fact want the opposite?  Of course this will bring out the Irish 606 battle cry of 'Conspiracy!', but genuinely - do you want the Welsh to be better?  With bigger crowds?  With better players?  With more funds at their disposal?  If so, and I hope you do from a purely rugby development point of view, then you have to let the discussion happen about how to improve our league from a Welsh point of view.  That means discussing changes that may not be in Irish interests.  But if it betters the league???  

I have always considered the Irish to be astute business people.  I mean, man for man they seem to have a nous for business greater than that of the average Welshman, IMO.  And I am 100% confident that if the Pro12 was not working out for the Irish provinces then the big wigs at the provinces, the bigwigs at the IRFU, the fans on here, would be suggesting changes that the other Pro12 nations may not like but which would help the Irish compete better in the league and grow their franchises, make them more successful.  I'm certain of it.  Us Welsh are in that boat now.  We're in a league that we're not doing very well in.  Historically only one side has been successful in it.  We're struggling in Europe.  We struggle to get fans interested in watching it.  You, the Pro12 partners, are calling for us to get our house in order.  So we must have these discussions.  And these ideas shouldn't be met with such ire.  Some ideas will be gash, some will be controversial, but perhaps eventually we'll strike on something that will be workable and mutually beneficial to all (in the long run).

Whatever.



Just kidding - most compelling plea for sanity I've seen on here in a long time.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

That's what you've "already said".  That's the bit I'm referring to.  Irish bias, Irish refs reffing all games, Irish TMOs, Irish booze, Irish Ferries, Irish burgers, Irish TV, Irish teetotallers (the worst!)

You're now being hysterical because you are trying to defend the indefensible. The facts in this thread do not lie.

Welsh regions Home games on a Sunday = 13

Irish provinces Home games on a Sunday = 2

Don't know why I'm bothering but its already been well covered, but lets go through it

Dragons ground share with Newport County A.F.C. (12 home games on a Saturday so far this season) and Newport RFC (8 home games on a sat so far), which makes it more difficult for the Dragons.

Ospreys share with Swansea City AFC, (10 home games on a Sat)

All the Irish provinces have their own ground and therefore do not have schedule conflicts.

If we look at teams that do not have ground shares
Cardiff Blues have 2 Sunday games
Scarlets have had one and another one scheduled
Leinster have had one.
Connacht have had one.

If we also make into account SC4 have a TV spot to fill on a Sunday so they are going to request that its one of the Welsh teams, (SC4 would hardly request to show Munster V Edinburgh), so it will normally be filled by one of the Welsh regions.

Glasgow and Edinburgh have both had one home game on a Sunday and these were shown on BBC Alba and S4C.

It then appears fair, if you do not ground share or have a TV channel requesting Sunday games, you then have either zero or one Sunday game in a season.

Kingshu wrote:.

It then appears fair,

I'm sure it does to you. I'm sure it does.

Kingshu wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

That's what you've "already said".  That's the bit I'm referring to.  Irish bias, Irish refs reffing all games, Irish TMOs, Irish booze, Irish Ferries, Irish burgers, Irish TV, Irish teetotallers (the worst!)

You're now being hysterical because you are trying to defend the indefensible. The facts in this thread do not lie.

Welsh regions Home games on a Sunday = 13

Irish provinces Home games on a Sunday = 2

Don't know why I'm bothering but its already been well covered, but lets go through it

Dragons ground share with Newport County A.F.C. (12 home games on a Saturday so far this season) and Newport RFC (8 home games on a sat so far), which makes it more difficult for the Dragons.

Ospreys share with Swansea City AFC, (10 home games on a Sat)

All the Irish provinces have their own ground and therefore do not have schedule conflicts.

If we look at teams that do not have ground shares
Cardiff Blues have 2 Sunday games
Scarlets have had one and another one scheduled
Leinster have had one.
Connacht have had one.

If we also make into account SC4 have a TV spot to fill on a Sunday so they are going to request that its one of the Welsh teams, (SC4 would hardly request to show Munster V Edinburgh), so it will normally be filled by one of the Welsh regions.

Glasgow and Edinburgh have both had one home game on a Sunday and these were shown on BBC Alba and S4C.

It then appears fair, if you do not ground share or have a TV channel requesting Sunday games, you then have either zero or one Sunday game in a season.

Doesn't really explain the Dragons 7 Sunday away games at clubs who do not share their ground (apart from 1 at the Liberty stadium)!

This weekend.

Friday - Newport County home (I accept it isn't the norm for football on a Friday).
Saturday - Dragons v Blouse, then Zooport v Cross Keys.

So it does prove that games don't necessarily have to be shifted to a Sunday or whatever, just because Newport RFC are home.

Griff wrote:I don't buy into the conspiracy thing some others on here claim to (to be honest I don't believe they actually believe it either; it's more an angle for a good bit of wumming and arguing against a league they don't like for other reasons!).  And I mean that sincerely.  I like the league and I wish it could work out well for all involved.  However, whenever these discussions come up (this is probably thread 10+ in the history of old and new 606) the much held view is that the 'Welsh need to get their house in order'.  When we try to do something about it (and 'do something about it' on a message board means discussion and suggestions mainly) we seem to be met with fire.  We suggest that Sundays are affecting our attendances.  'Suck it up, ya big Jessies.  We have our preferred Friday games and we f*cking love it!' We suggest that we need to look at funding to match the Irish - 'stop whingeing, your Union gives you enough, ya feckers'.  A change to the refereeing allocation 'They think it's a conspiracy, the feckers'.  But all of these things - better attendances, better funding for the Welsh, better refereeing resources (bigger pool, outside refs) - would improve our league for everyone.  

I wonder sometimes if it is in the Irish interests to pretend to want a strong welsh contingent, but in fact want the opposite?  Of course this will bring out the Irish 606 battle cry of 'Conspiracy!', but genuinely - do you want the Welsh to be better?  With bigger crowds?  With better players?  With more funds at their disposal?  If so, and I hope you do from a purely rugby development point of view, then you have to let the discussion happen about how to improve our league from a Welsh point of view.  That means discussing changes that may not be in Irish interests.  But if it betters the league???  

I have always considered the Irish to be astute business people.  I mean, man for man they seem to have a nous for business greater than that of the average Welshman, IMO.  And I am 100% confident that if the Pro12 was not working out for the Irish provinces then the big wigs at the provinces, the bigwigs at the IRFU, the fans on here, would be suggesting changes that the other Pro12 nations may not like but which would help the Irish compete better in the league and grow their franchises, make them more successful.  I'm certain of it.  Us Welsh are in that boat now.  We're in a league that we're not doing very well in.  Historically only one side has been successful in it.  We're struggling in Europe.  We struggle to get fans interested in watching it.  You, the Pro12 partners, are calling for us to get our house in order.  So we must have these discussions.  And these ideas shouldn't be met with such ire.  Some ideas will be gash, some will be controversial, but perhaps eventually we'll strike on something that will be workable and mutually beneficial to all (in the long run).

We don't want a league in Our Interests.  We want others to stop blaming the League as Being Loaded in Our Interests when the truth is that the shortfalls (whatever they may be) are nearer to the home of those who throw that accusation at us.
Lord once heedlessly said in an argument that Welsh regions were unfairly getting more Irish refs reffing them than the other way round.  He didn't bother to research it, the accusation at the time was enough for him to strengthen his point that the Pro12 is weighted in favour of the Irish, by the Irish, for the Irish...and Guinness
But I did the research and found the idea was complete bunk.  At the point he was speaking, Irish sides had been reffed by more Welsh refs than the other way round.

The 'perceptions' about what the Pro12 is and who it favours is the point some of us retort.

Welsh rugby has just had a long fist fight with itself for a year.  Regions fighting WRU.  A phoney peace has settled for the time being.  But no way are we Irish accepting any blame for that infighting, that has been going on really since the Regions were formed.  We have no say in the structures of Welsh rugby at International or Club level,  That's Welsh business although we do get obviously interested from time to time considering we're in the same League.

But the solutions to Welsh rugby are with Welsh rugby.  The League is an entirely different argument.  It has its rules, it has its conditions, it has its negotiating periods at the beginning of each season whereby I'd assume people sit down and discuss calendars and dates and days of the week and referees and all those things.

If the Welsh fan base ends up shouting and complaining about most of those arrangements for most of the year, then you can be certain the Welsh contingent, whoever they may be (WRU alone or WRU in consultation with the Regions), have not been forceful enough in their negotiating strategies at the beginning of the season to get all these issues sorted to their fanbase's liking.  

That's the responsibility of the Regions and the WRU to look out for Welsh interests within the framework of the League.  I don't believe the Welsh are shrinking violets when it comes to negotiations, (that WRU/Regional battle certainly proves otherwise).  So the answers about all the issues Chunky brings up and Lord brings up is with the Welsh themselves.  Somebody is responsible for all those Welsh Sunday games.  I'd say most of the responsibility lies within Welsh rugby itself - the negotiators.

Don't - keep - blaming - us, is our only mantra.  And it'll continue as long as that ever ready blame for all that is wrong with the League slides our way.

SecretFly wrote:If the Welsh fan base ends up shouting and complaining about most of those arrangements for most of the year, then you can be certain the Welsh contingent, whoever they may be (WRU alone or WRU in consultation with the Regions), have not been forceful enough in their negotiating strategies at the beginning of the season to get all these issues sorted to their fanbase's liking.

SF, if you read my post above, that paragraph alone kind of strengthens what I think.

Griff wrote:This is what I don't understand.  We're all partners in this league together.  If one partner says 'we don't like Sunday games, the crowds are poor and they don't suit us, etc.' then in a normal, rational relationship the response I would expect would be along the lines 'Ummm, I see.  Well, yes this doesn't sound good.  You should look at changing that my friend'.  Instead we get 110 reasons why we should   embrace Sunday games and just suck it up.  Why are we at war over this?  What do you have against our teams playing on a Friday or Saturday if it suits us better?!

I don't think its a good thing at all, or that you should suck it up or any of that. It's more that its often framed as a question of bias; 'oh, the league is all run in favour of the Irish, look at our Sunday games they never play on Sundays etc. etc.' This is self-evidently ridiculous of course. The issue is the broadcasting situation, with one specific broadcaster who covers the Welsh teams deciding when the games they cover are played. Now people are going to sympathise with that if the point is made in a realistic manner, but when its hysterically framed as some sort of bias within the league people will simply lose patience and not care.

We should look at changing the Sunday game situation, but honestly it comes down directly to negotiations between the Welsh regions and S4C. I hope they are able to resolve it.

In a similar vein to the 6 Nations suggestions, I think we should kick out the worst performing teams.

Let's say we get rid of the bottom 5 clubs and have a Pro 7, with the best teams playing each other on a more regular basis. That would mean kicking out both Italian sides plus Cardiff, Dragons and the Scarlets. The dross could then have a mini-league, with amateur teams from Spain, Portugal, Romania etc. joining in.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:If the Welsh fan base ends up shouting and complaining about most of those arrangements for most of the year, then you can be certain the Welsh contingent, whoever they may be (WRU alone or WRU in consultation with the Regions), have not been forceful enough in their negotiating strategies at the beginning of the season to get all these issues sorted to their fanbase's liking.

SF, if you read my post above, that paragraph alone kind of strengthens what I think.

No it doesn't.  You don't come here blaming your Regions - or even the WRU.  I heard a lot about the Regions and the WRU last year when the European Competition was being debated.  Yes, then people took their strong position on a pro-WRU or pro-Region front.

But that's not what gets expressed here when criticising this Pro12 league.  No - the THEM and US lines are clearly demarcated - and they're US (Welsh) agin  THEM (Irish).  That' mostly what I hear.  Anything bad about Pro12 has the scent of Irishness attached to it.  I don't hear much overt criticism of Regions themselves or even WRU in particular.  If WRU does come up, it's watered down into 'Unions'.

You need to keep the sponsers happy though.

LordDowlais wrote:You need to keep the sponsers happy though.

That theory hasn't worked out too well for poor Scotland in the Six Nations, has it???

To go back over my post above I believe the main issue is SC4 requesting that each weekend a region has a game on most Sundays, meaning that the regions will play around 22 extra Sunday fixtures.

Now I believe Welsh supporters think that it would be fairer if they were shared out a bit more, so that instead of SC4 showing a regional home game on a Sunday, that they also did it for away games.

i.e. 11 regional home games are on a Sunday and 10 regional away games are on a Sunday, (something like 2 Sunday games per team in the League).

However the reason I understand this doesn't happen and the non Welsh teams have zero to one Sunday game is the time slot for Sunday games is with SC4 and the WRU/Regions keep all the SC4 money (each country sells its own TV rights), the SC4 contract is reported to be quiet big as well (someone said equivalent to an extra 10,000 supports to each game).

So there isn't the finicial incentive for the other teams to switch to a Sunday game, now if the TV contract money was centralised and divided out evenly then I think there would be an argument to share out the Sunday games more.

But as it stands if the regions are going to keep the big TV contract which has Sunday games, then they will have to play most of the Sunday games.

funnyExiledScot wrote:In a similar vein to the 6 Nations suggestions, I think we should kick out the worst performing teams.

Let's say we get rid of the bottom 5 clubs and have a Pro 7, with the best teams playing each other on a more regular basis. That would mean kicking out both Italian sides plus Cardiff, Dragons and the Scarlets. The dross could then have a mini-league, with amateur teams from Spain, Portugal, Romania etc. joining in.

Kingshu wrote:Now I believe Welsh supporters think that it would be fairer if they were shared out a bit more, so that instead of SC4 showing a regional home game on a Sunday, that they also did it for away games.

I would prefere it if away games only were shown on tele, perhaps it might encourage more people to actually go to the home games to be able to watch their team.

Or even better - if you're going to put a game on Sunday then at least televise it. Otherwise, what's the point?  This is not always the case for away games!

Griff wrote:Or even better - if you're going to put a game on Sunday then at least televise it.  Otherwise, what's the point?  This is not always the case for away games!

Griff, is the Dragons V Blues derby on tele this weekend ?

Griff wrote:I don't buy into the conspiracy thing some others on here claim to (to be honest I don't believe they actually believe it either; it's more an angle for a good bit of wumming and arguing against a league they don't like for other reasons!).  And I mean that sincerely.  I like the league and I wish it could work out well for all involved.  However, whenever these discussions come up (this is probably thread 10+ in the history of old and new 606) the much held view is that the 'Welsh need to get their house in order'.  When we try to do something about it (and 'do something about it' on a message board means discussion and suggestions mainly) we seem to be met with fire.  We suggest that Sundays are affecting our attendances.  'Suck it up, ya big Jessies.  We have our preferred Friday games and we f*cking love it!' We suggest that we need to look at funding to match the Irish - 'stop whingeing, your Union gives you enough, ya feckers'.  A change to the refereeing allocation 'They think it's a conspiracy, the feckers'.  But all of these things - better attendances, better funding for the Welsh, better refereeing resources (bigger pool, outside refs) - would improve our league for everyone.  

I wonder sometimes if it is in the Irish interests to pretend to want a strong welsh contingent, but in fact want the opposite?  Of course this will bring out the Irish 606 battle cry of 'Conspiracy!', but genuinely - do you want the Welsh to be better?  With bigger crowds?  With better players?  With more funds at their disposal?  If so, and I hope you do from a purely rugby development point of view, then you have to let the discussion happen about how to improve our league from a Welsh point of view.  That means discussing changes that may not be in Irish interests.  But if it betters the league???  

I have always considered the Irish to be astute business people.  I mean, man for man they seem to have a nous for business greater than that of the average Welshman, IMO.  And I am 100% confident that if the Pro12 was not working out for the Irish provinces then the big wigs at the provinces, the bigwigs at the IRFU, the fans on here, would be suggesting changes that the other Pro12 nations may not like but which would help the Irish compete better in the league and grow their franchises, make them more successful.  I'm certain of it.  Us Welsh are in that boat now.  We're in a league that we're not doing very well in.  Historically only one side has been successful in it.  We're struggling in Europe.  We struggle to get fans interested in watching it.  You, the Pro12 partners, are calling for us to get our house in order.  So we must have these discussions.  And these ideas shouldn't be met with such ire.  Some ideas will be gash, some will be controversial, but perhaps eventually we'll strike on something that will be workable and mutually beneficial to all (in the long run).

Good honest post, Griff.

I can say personally I don't know of any supporters who don't want to see the Regions improve, and for Welsh rugby overall to get its house in order. Not entirely a selfless thing. Stronger Regions will strengthen the Provinces, not weaken them, and at the same time strengthen the Pro12. It's a win win. Even if it did mean losing more to Welsh sides.

Griff, you would have to admit there a few Regions fans who constantly whine, and constantly point the finger of blame at the Irish. Without any basis in fact to do so. I see it every week across all forums. I'm sure, like you, most fans don't buy into the conspiracy theory nonsense, but there are a few tinfoil hat wearing members who believe it hook, line and sinker. Empty vessels make the loudest noise.

As for the Pro12? I think it's a great league. Sure the officiating could be improved, but that's a belief we all share - Welsh, Irish, Scot and Italian. What doesn't help the Pro12 is Region supporters constantly pulling it down. That really isn't going to encourage rugby fans to come support whatever Region. Why would they after hearing such negative comments? That in turn has a knock on effect on the Regions. Fewer supporters. Less finance. Less competitive edge. Less silverware. The fans should really be trying to sell it to others. Big it up. Not tear it down, and cry that they want to migrate to the Aviva instead. They may be the few, but the few can cause a lot of damage.

Munchkin, I agree with you.

On the refereeing thing: it's not necessarily the standard of the officiating. It's the fact that we can have refs refereeing teams from their country. Personally I don't have too much problem with it. But it just opens the whole league up to accusations. It makes the league look a little amateurish too, a bit like lending teams players in Sunday league football if they can't make up the numbers! I just think we'd look a bit more professional with fully impartial (I know they all are anyway) refs. A small gesture. May the costs are too high?

The other problem we have is 'regional' fans who do not like the switch to regional rugby. So they'll come on here under the pretense of being a regional fan (as they live in a 'region') and wanting better for their region within this league, however in reality nothing would please them because they they want their old club and league back. They muddy the waters somewhat and give the rest of us a bad name. It's difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff unfortunately!

Griff wrote:separate the wheat from the chaff

Who is the wheat and who is the chaff ? I need to pigeon hole myself for future debates.

You're the chaff, Lord.

What can I say, I'm biased!

SecretFly wrote:You're the chaff, Lord.

What can I say, I'm biased!

What can I say, I'm always full of chaff.

I don't understand how any Welsh fans can seriously think the Sunday games in Wales are caused by Ireland, the sole reason for Sunday fixtures is to suit S4C, I don't know how much they pay for this 1 game a week slot but I would imagine it is very little considering they have to rely on the smallest targeted audience for advertising of any TV station covering the UK plus some meagre hangouts from the BBC.
Sky have 1st pick games for their 2 slots on Saturday.
BBC regions each have 2nd pick of what's left for their Friday night slot.
That doesn't really leave S4C many games to choose from for Sunday afternoon.
The question for me - is it really worth moving a game to Sunday for the amount of money S4C provide or should the powers that be really be looking more to sell them a highlights programme rights rather than a live match.

That will never happen 2ndtime, Roger Lewis was only saying not so long ago at an Ospreys game that was live on tele that games on the tele was the equivalent to getting ten thousand fans through the gate at each home game money wise.

Griff wrote:Munchkin, I agree with you.  

On the refereeing thing: it's not necessarily the standard of the officiating.  It's the fact that we can have refs refereeing teams from their country.  Personally I don't have too much problem with it.  But it just opens the whole league up to accusations.  It makes the league look a little amateurish too, a bit like lending teams players in Sunday league football if they can't make up the numbers!  I just think we'd look a bit more professional with fully impartial (I know they all are anyway) refs.  A small gesture.  May the costs are too high?

The other problem we have is 'regional' fans who do not like the switch to regional rugby.  So they'll come on here under the pretense of being a regional fan (as they live in a 'region') and wanting better for their region within this league, however in reality nothing would please them because they they want their old club and league back.  They muddy the waters somewhat and give the rest of us a bad name.  It's difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff unfortunately!

It would be great if we could get neutral ref's, but I don't think it's possible just yet. We would need to see more Scottish and Italian ref's, although it may be possible to bring in some English ref's? Not sure about the costs, but relative to running a club it would be small change, I think.
More than anything I would like some sort of improvement in the standard of TMO's. For the most part I think they're fine, but they are open to bias, and some do get it wrong. Either an improvement, or abolished altogether, methinks. There's also they Hawkeye which was trailed at Scarlets. there's a good chance that will be a positive if employed at all grounds, as it will help aid TMO's, and ref's make more informed decisions. One can hope

A TMO shouldn't exist.  Period.

A man controlling the communication between ref and video replay guys is all that's needed.  The ref is already looking at what the TMO goes over on a big screen and remains the ref.  So why does he need to ask a sideline guy to make a judgement on incidents he can see being replayed for himself?  A ref knows what he sees on TV as much as any of the rest of us.  He doesn't need it interpreted by someone else simply because that someone else is in a 'special' room or van with a group of TV screens to look at and editing equipment to play with.

It's actually quite ludicrous and Nigel Owens can't resist every opportunity he gets to prove the point.  He increasingly doesn't wait for the TMO to hummm and haaaa over the repeated coverage and makes a snap judgement himself based on what he sees up on the screen. I think the whole idea bores him.

LordDowlais wrote:That will never happen 2ndtime, Roger Lewis was only saying not so long ago at an Ospreys game that was live on tele that games on the tele was the equivalent to getting ten thousand fans through the gate at each home game money wise.

Which is primarily due to the money SKY pay for their fixtures, S4C don't pay a fraction of what they pay hence they end up with last choice and an unpopular time slot, Roger Lewis is also very well connected with the BBC and it suits his purpose to keep them sweet, the BBC are obliged to assist S4C with content also.

SecretFly wrote:A TMO shouldn't exist.  Period.

Agreed.

If every ground has a large screen, agreed no TMO is needed, but have they?

wayne wrote:If every ground has a large screen, agreed no TMO is needed, but have they?

Big TVs for everybody!!!!

Make it a rule.  Force the Broadcasting people to provide screens in order to get broadcasting deals.

But if a TMO has footage to go back over (and by definition they always do) then surely every ground could have access to a Reasonably big screen somewhere to let a ref have a look at and make a judgement on.

wayne wrote:If every ground has a large screen, agreed no TMO is needed, but have they?

Dunno and i've wondered whether there is a standard procedure for positioning tv cameras and for that matter, how many.

SecretFly wrote:A TMO shouldn't exist.  Period.

A man controlling the communication between ref and video replay guys is all that's needed.  The ref is already looking at what the TMO goes over on a big screen and remains the ref.  So why does he need to ask a sideline guy to make a judgement on incidents he can see being replayed for himself?  A ref knows what he sees on TV as much as any of the rest of us.  He doesn't need it interpreted by someone else simply because that someone else is in a 'special' room or van with a group of TV screens to look at and editing equipment to play with.

It's actually quite ludicrous and Nigel Owens can't resist every opportunity he gets to prove the point.  He increasingly doesn't wait for the TMO to hummm and haaaa over the repeated coverage and makes a snap judgement himself based on what he sees up on the screen.  I think the whole idea bores him.

Yep, Nigel doesn't suffer TMO's gladly. Truth is the TMO's bore most of us, as they tend to take an age making a decision that the supporters have already figured out on first viewing. Draining momentum from a good game, and enthusiasm from supporters. Especially annoying on cold wet evenings....or any time of day really. Some ref's bottle decisions by turning to the TMO as well. TMO's out!

You would think the broadcasters take a dim view of TMO's as well...

Maybe employ Hawk eye at all grounds, with someone to press buttons.

SecretFly wrote:

wayne wrote:If every ground has a large screen, agreed no TMO is needed, but have they?

Big TVs for everybody!!!!

Make it a rule.  Force the Broadcasting people to provide screens in order to get broadcasting deals.

But if a TMO has footage to go back over (and by definition they always do) then surely every ground could have access to a Reasonably big screen somewhere to let a ref have a look at and make a judgement on.

Fly there has been a new topic EVERY YEAR about a screen at the Liberty, and the general feeling was we couldn't afford them, yet this year Swansea City AFC, through their mega funds, ironically from TV deals could afford it and they were installed.

SecretFly wrote:A TMO shouldn't exist.  Period.

A man controlling the communication between ref and video replay guys is all that's needed.  The ref is already looking at what the TMO goes over on a big screen and remains the ref.  So why does he need to ask a sideline guy to make a judgement on incidents he can see being replayed for himself?  A ref knows what he sees on TV as much as any of the rest of us.  He doesn't need it interpreted by someone else simply because that someone else is in a 'special' room or van with a group of TV screens to look at and editing equipment to play with.

It's actually quite ludicrous and Nigel Owens can't resist every opportunity he gets to prove the point.  He increasingly doesn't wait for the TMO to hummm and haaaa over the repeated coverage and makes a snap judgement himself based on what he sees up on the screen.  I think the whole idea bores him.

I think they changed the rules recently. Originally the TMO made the decision, but I think the directive now is for the ref to make the final decision if he has a tv replay to view. Can anyone confirm?

Nige has 'confirmed' long before recently though Griff.  I seem to recall him over-ruling and losing patience on occasion for some time now.

I suppose it always needed a strong ref to assert the idea that he'll take onboard advice but his decision will be the main one if he has a view.

The TMO is there to ensure better decisions are made. When Nigel didn't bother with the TMO for England's knock-on try against France that was a bad oversight on his part. The TMO should be able to say to him he had got it wrong and then he should have disallowed the try.

The protocol needs to be changed though. Basically if the TMO can't see anything conclusive in real time then the decision is in the hands of the referee irrespective of the what question is being asked.

The Great Aukster wrote:The TMO is there to ensure better decisions are made. When Nigel didn't bother with the TMO for England's knock-on try against France that was a bad oversight on his part. The TMO should be able to say to him he had got it wrong and then he should have disallowed the try.

But refs will always get things wrong. In situations where they never even consult the TMO, they get things wrong.... things that then can run on and create tries that might not have happened had the ref got things right two or three moves earlier.

My point is that there has to be a final arbiter in games or else how many levels of authority does a game require?

The relationship between ref and TMO can change according to who is ref and who is TMO. Strong TMOs can almost insist that weak refs abide by their opinion. Strong refs ignore dithering TMOs. But that dynamic doesn't need even more intricate rules to clear up the relationship. I'd simply say the ref has to return to being the final arbiter. Advice is fine but as strictly only advice, not as directions like: "You may award the try". Let the ref himself decide based on the same footage the TMO uses.

2ndtimeround wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:That will never happen 2ndtime, Roger Lewis was only saying not so long ago at an Ospreys game that was live on tele that games on the tele was the equivalent to getting ten thousand fans through the gate at each home game money wise.

Which is primarily due to the money SKY pay for their fixtures, S4C don't pay a fraction of what they pay hence they end up with last choice and an unpopular time slot, Roger Lewis is also very well connected with the BBC and it suits his purpose to keep them sweet, the BBC are obliged to assist S4C with content also.

He was saying this the season before Sky got any games.

SecretFly wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:The TMO is there to ensure better decisions are made. When Nigel didn't bother with the TMO for England's knock-on try against France that was a bad oversight on his part. The TMO should be able to say to him he had got it wrong and then he should have disallowed the try.

But refs will always get things wrong.  In situations where they never even consult the TMO, they get things wrong.... things that then can run on and create tries that might not have happened had the ref got things right two or three moves earlier.

My point is that there has to be a final arbiter in games or else how many levels of authority does a game require?  

The relationship between ref and TMO can change according to who is ref and who is TMO.  Strong TMOs can almost insist that weak refs abide by their opinion.  Strong refs ignore dithering TMOs.  But that dynamic doesn't need even more intricate rules to clear up the relationship.  I'd simply say the ref has to return to being the final arbiter.  Advice is fine but as strictly only advice, not as directions like: "You may award the try".  Let the ref himself decide based on the same footage the TMO uses.

The referral system in Cricket works pretty well. I don't see any reason when there is a TMO present why either team shouldn't be able to use one referral to eliminate the howler decisions like the Phillips try. That could be invoked by either the captain or the team management.

I agree the referee should always be able to ask for advice from the TMO, and he should also be the one to make the decision. The relationship between the four officials would run a lot smoother if they remained as a team for every fixture they were involved in as mentioned in another thread.

Interesting to hear Leinster CEO Mick Dawson's take on things in a recent interview on the 'down the bline side' podcast.

He was unhappy with the Pro 12 and thinks it can and should be run better. He mentioned it needs a rebranding and mentioned Welsh teams and Edinburgh as not doing as well as they should be.

Re a B&I league. He mentioned being in touch with Aviva premiership club CEOs and they told him they'd like to see a B&I league but the lower clubs do not want it. He said for it to happen it would need either BT or Sky pushing for it but at the moment its a long way off as the English clubs have just signed new TV deals. So forget about it folks!

LordDowlais wrote:

2ndtimeround wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:That will never happen 2ndtime, Roger Lewis was only saying not so long ago at an Ospreys game that was live on tele that games on the tele was the equivalent to getting ten thousand fans through the gate at each home game money wise.

Which is primarily due to the money SKY pay for their fixtures, S4C don't pay a fraction of what they pay hence they end up with last choice and an unpopular time slot, Roger Lewis is also very well connected with the BBC and it suits his purpose to keep them sweet, the BBC are obliged to assist S4C with content also.

He was saying this the season before Sky got any games.  

Well at an average ticket price of just £10 and assuming these 10 thousand fans didn't spend a penny in the ground that would come to nearly £9,000,000 per season for the coverage based on 4 games been shown for each of the 22 rounds across the 3 BBC regions and S4C.
As Sky now have the main coverage at just £5,000,000 per season I doubt there is very much truth in Rogers figures. Unless of course he was referring to the season when free tickets seemed to be all the rage a few years back and basing his sums on that.
Listening to Lewis talk about anything is a bit like listening to Cameron and Milliband tell us how good for the NHS they really are.

If Irish provinces weren't in the European Cup, would Welsh regions manage to top a group or qualify for the knockout stages/semi-finals?

On Scheduling of Games - all Edinburghs games seem to be Friday night games - no doubt at all that has damaged crowds

funnyExiledScot wrote:In a similar vein to the 6 Nations suggestions, I think we should kick out the worst performing teams.

Let's say we get rid of the bottom 5 clubs and have a Pro 7, with the best teams playing each other on a more regular basis. That would mean kicking out both Italian sides plus Cardiff, Dragons and the Scarlets. The dross could then have a mini-league, with amateur teams from Spain, Portugal, Romania etc. joining in.

Agreed.  It is the dross holding the league back.   Perhaps get in some english teams who would at least make the league a bit more competitive and open a door to greater financial backing.

As Mick Dawson emphasises in his podcast interview, the Pro12 needs a branding makeover and needs to attract in more sponsors and a better TV deal - the Welsh need to get their players back to improve their performance and marketability, the Scottish teams, particularly Edinburgh need to be more competitive. And the best market to go after is the UK market. Interestingly he didn't mention the Italian sides once.

So time to shape up or ship out....