How can the Pro12 go the next level?

First topic message reminder :

Regardless of what anyone says about the quality of the league, I believe it is the best but I'm biased, the whole product seems to be suffering and there isn't the cash to prevent the exodus of players to France and England. This article sums it up better than I ever could so if you wish give it a read http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby/latest/iain-morrison-cap-won-t-stop-celtic-exodus-1-3670331


I don't think we are in the doomsday scenario that the article predicts, the Irish are suffering a momentary blip but still have three quality teams, the Welsh seems to be curbing the exodus, Glasgow are on the verge of outgrowing Scotstoun and Edinburgh are showing signs of improvement (and I think the academies in Scotland could make a real difference long term) . The less said about the Italians currently the better.

The options I would propose are that we add in another Welsh team and another Scottish team and remove the Italians. They can't be much worse and they'd result in more derbies which would help the broadcasters, make it more tribal and increase interest. The negatives are that it would damage Italian rugby and the Italians are unlikely to agree with it, what I would suggest alternatively is that we introduce a new league and drop down to a ten team top division meaning fewer games in the top division allowing smaller squads with higher quality players and competitive games all year round and start a second division and introduce a play off between top team from Division 2 and the bottom from Division 1 so we don't end up with a London Welsh situation

To be honest, based on some of the threads on here I think you're all ed.

Only chance is for the PRl to be even bigger to unite you in hatred.

IronMike wrote:Drop both Italian teams, they add nothing interesting in my opinion and only drag the league out, the seasons are long for most of the players on international duty so having a smaller fixture list is appealing.

Will be interesting to see what the Scottish do soon after the 6Ns considering there's a RWC round the corner. IIRC, they rested quite a few last time.

LordDowlais wrote:

Brendan wrote:I think after every group stage is finished the league that does worse has one of these things.

The Pro 12 is aready moving onto the next level with Sky starting to come on board and when the Euro cup TV rights come up for Sale the Rabo can do a deal involving both.

Of the players mentioned in the article Priestland is going as back up and has not been at his best for a while.  As good as Visser is going forward there a a few Scottish players who would give more to the team.  Hanrahan is second best to Keatley.

Our lower half of the league did fine in the challange cup and had no bottom places and Zebre won two games.

While money will always be an issue I think the Super 15 teams have lost more by some margin compared to the Pro12, also they are losing current internationals.

And I think you have the wrong thread bio Bach.

was the article about how poor the Pro12 did in the champions cup and how players were leaving for the other two leagues.

Surely a pre designated stadium allows more people to go and plan their trip rather than the select few who can afford the prices two weeks out.

Unless the final is played at the ground of the top seeded team, and everyone accepts this, then nominating a stadium beforehand is the only other way.

Otherwise you'll have a horrible situation with ticketing.

LordDowlais wrote:

Notch wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:It can improve but not with announcements like the one we got today.

What a kick in the teeth for Glasgow and Ospreys

Don't forget Munster. It's much easier to get to Belfast from Glasgow than Limerick or Cork.

You keep saying that as if Glasgow have a massive following, they don't, they get ok crowds at home, but hardly any of their fans travel to watch them.

So for your homework. Go off and find out how many Glasgow fans travelled to the RDS for last year's final. Then see if you can work out whether it was more or less than double what the Ospreys brought to BOTH finals they played (and won, the feckers) at the same venue.

The answer to the topic title is......

"It can't"

Chunky Norwich wrote:The answer to the topic title is......

"It can't if it is run by people like me with a defeatist attitude"

True.

There is incompetence at the top of the league and problems with trying to satisfy the differing needs of all parties but if some of them have a "can do attitude" rather than just giving up like Chunky then all is not lost.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:The answer to the topic title is......

"It can't if it is run by people like me with a defeatist attitude"

True.

There is incompetence at the top of the league and problems with trying to satisfy the differing needs of all parties but if some of them have a "can do attitude" rather than just giving up like Chunky then all is not lost.

Someone needs to invent an emoticon picturing an Ostrich with it's head in the sand.

Only if they also create an icon of a teenager in his bedroom with a big depressed head and a speech bubble saying "Maaaammmy, every thing's broken"

its going to be tricky to see how pro12 gets to the next level

most growth has been in ireland on the back of the great performance of the provinces in Europe, and people viewing provincial wins in Europe as "Irish" victories.

in Wales, the split between region and country is stark, and reflects the deep divisions between clubs themselves and club and WRU. Even if O's had great success in pro12 and Europe, i dont see it fueling growth in the same way it did in Ireland where rugby was never and still isnt a top sport.

its going to be unpopular for me to say it, but the changes of enforcing qualification to Europe from within the pro12 is ultimately imo the best shot at improving over time the attraction of pro12 to viewers. Tighter games with real bite involved, all the way down to 8th place.

pro12 lacks the history of AP and top14 rivalries some of which have been around for 100+ years. nothing can be done about that, so the rivalries need to be created over time, and the pro12 needs to be as fiercely competitive as European matches are for those sides.

quinsforever wrote:
pro12 lacks the history of AP and top14 rivalries some of which have been around for 100+ years. nothing can be done about that

Well that not strictly true as we have the interprovincial games and the Glasgow v Edinburgh rivalry.

Pretty sure some of the AP teams weren't battling it out 100 years ago.

The elephant in the room is as usual the Welsh..and arguably the Italians too. Who rather than accept the reality that there is no viable alternative for sustainable professional rugby for them other than going with the begging bowl for English or French scraps and work to get the best with what we have, continue to shoot themselves in the foot with infighting rather than attempt to stand on their own feet with the help of their Irish and Scots buddies, who genuinely are trying to throw a dog a bone rather than steal it's pedigree chum.

rodders wrote:

quinsforever wrote:
pro12 lacks the history of AP and top14 rivalries some of which have been around for 100+ years. nothing can be done about that

Well that not strictly true as we have the interprovincial games and the Glasgow v Edinburgh rivalry.

Pretty sure some of the AP teams weren't battling it out 100 years ago.

The elephant in the room is as usual the Welsh..and arguably the Italians too. Who rather than accept the reality that there is no viable alternative for sustainable professional rugby for them other than going with the begging bowl for English or French scraps and work to get the best with what we have, continue to shoot themselves in the foot with infighting rather than attempt to stand on their own feet with the help of their Irish and Scots buddies, who genuinely are trying to throw a dog a bone rather than steal it's pedigree chum.

thats 14 games out of 132 in a season. and those games would have had those rivalries with or without a pro12. and look at what the WRU doing to the welsh club sides to fit into the pro12 has done to their support and structure?

you need some really good hard grudge matches building up over time that arent just domestic.

i'm waiting for some furniture to be delivered so...
quins 1866
saints 1880
wasps 1867
bath 1865
glaws 1873
london welsh 1885
saracens 1876
newcastle 1877
london irish 1898
sale 1861
leicester 1880
exeter chiefs 1871

all over 100 years old. and some really niggle rivalries in there too.

There's another rivalry in these parts that begun in 1921. Two teams that fight for the privelage of a small rag doll, which used to be tied to one of the posts.

I'd dearly love for it to be contested for twice a season.

Nevermind, we'll make do with Zebre and Connacht.

Pretty sure Newcastle weren't in the AP until 1996....

top14...
stade francais 1883
racing metro 1890 (merged w US metro 2001)
toulouse 1907
toulon 1908
clermont 1911
bordeaux 2006
grenoble 1892
montpellier 1986
oyonnax 1909
bayonne 1904
lyon 1896
brive 1910
castres 1906
la rochelle 1898

rodders wrote:Pretty sure Newcastle weren't in the AP until 1996....

before the were the falcons they were gosforth. a very successful amateur club.

once the game went professional lots of teams added silly bits to their names

quinsforever wrote:top14...
stade francais 1883
racing metro 1890 (merged w US metro 2001)
toulouse 1907
toulon 1908
clermont 1911
bordeaux 2006
grenoble 1892
montpellier 1986
oyonnax 1909
bayonne 1904
lyon 1896
brive 1910
castres 1906
la rochelle 1898

Bordeaux is in fact a merge between two club: Stade Bordelais (1889) and Bègles (1907)
Montpellier was created in 1986 with a merge too: Stade Montpelliérain (1963) and rugby section of Montpellier Hérault Sport Club bought to general sport club Montpellier Université Club (1921) in 1985.

Which is the same as Wasps were actually created in 1995 out of the previous club. Similar for a lot, if not all pro clubs. Although the Provinces have existed for at least 1000 years (no idea when they were formed).

HammerofThunor wrote:Which is the same as Wasps were actually created in 1995 out of the previous club. Similar for a lot, if not all pro clubs.  Although the Provinces have existed for at least 1000 years (no idea when they were formed).

The provinces have existed since Ancient Ireland... but the rugby teams representing those provinces have only existed since 1879. Connacht joined the other three in 1885.

Rugby has been in Wales since the 1850's, and there was some very strong rivalries between the clubs. Boy, do I miss the old schweppes cup, some of the finals, between Neath and Llanelli in particular were immense, I remember being in the old Arms Park watching those finals with over forty thousand other fans and I am only talking early nineties at most, in the space of twenty years rugby has changed so much. I wonder if we will ever get it back.

profitius wrote:

Shifty wrote:It's a rubbish product from top to bottom.  Welsh fans have voted with their feet already.  

Can you back that up with attendance figures?

All I know is according to some Welsh the league is sh!t and dragging them down. Not the other way around!  

The Italians, Scots and Irish just get on with it and have been making progress.

Yes the Ospreys are losing about 750 fans per season in terms of attendances, and that's despite them giving season tickets away.

rodders wrote:Pretty sure Newcastle weren't in the AP until 1996....

If memory serves at the start of the professional era, several rich people bought lower league clubs including Richmond, Coventry, Leeds and Newcastle. If my memory is right didn't Rob Andrews coach Newcastle, while Phil Davies went to league. I seem to remember Richmond making a lot of expensive Welsh buys including bringing back Scott Quinnel from league. I also remember several big clubs like Orrell, London Scottish and Bristol basically going into free fall because they had no backers.

LordDowlais wrote:Rugby has been in Wales since the 1850's, and there was some very strong rivalries between the clubs. Boy, do I miss the old schweppes cup, some of the finals, between Neath and Llanelli in particular were immense, I remember being in the old Arms Park watching those finals with over forty thousand other fans and I am only talking early nineties at most, in the space of twenty years rugby has changed so much. I wonder if we will ever get it back.

Wake up mun, we've been in the pro era for a long time now.

The Saint wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Rugby has been in Wales since the 1850's, and there was some very strong rivalries between the clubs. Boy, do I miss the old schweppes cup, some of the finals, between Neath and Llanelli in particular were immense, I remember being in the old Arms Park watching those finals with over forty thousand other fans and I am only talking early nineties at most, in the space of twenty years rugby has changed so much. I wonder if we will ever get it back.

Wake up mun, we've been in the pro era for a long time now.

Not sure though that those running the game have totally woken up yet.

Shifty wrote:

profitius wrote:

Shifty wrote:It's a rubbish product from top to bottom.  Welsh fans have voted with their feet already.  

Can you back that up with attendance figures?

All I know is according to some Welsh the league is sh!t and dragging them down. Not the other way around!  

The Italians, Scots and Irish just get on with it and have been making progress.

Yes the Ospreys are losing about 750 fans per season in terms of attendances, and that's despite them giving season tickets away.

And free merch too.
Giving stuff away for nowt isn't the way forward.

quinsforever wrote:its going to be unpopular for me to say it, but the changes of enforcing qualification to Europe from within the pro12 is ultimately imo the best shot at improving over time the attraction of pro12 to viewers. Tighter games with real bite involved, all the way down to 8th place

Two thirds of the teams in the pro12 have been fighting for qualification for years - the changes won't make the slightest difference so not unpopular at all.

The Welsh and Scottish fans don't go through the turnstiles because it is a betrayal of the club game that is so dear to them. TV viewers don't tune in big numbers because the countries don't have the big numbers to start with. Sponsors would rather reach 10 million than 1 million because they get more bang for their buck. The challenge for the PRO12 is not the quality of the rugby but attracting more countries with a vested interest and associated viewing numbers that will generate the cash to make them competitive.

The Great Aukster wrote:

quinsforever wrote:its going to be unpopular for me to say it, but the changes of enforcing qualification to Europe from within the pro12 is ultimately imo the best shot at improving over time the attraction of pro12 to viewers. Tighter games with real bite involved, all the way down to 8th place

Two thirds of the teams in the pro12 have been fighting for qualification for years - the changes won't make the slightest difference so not unpopular at all.

Not much of a fight really in 2011/2012 for example. Only the Drags didn't qualify for the HEC. The remaining 11 from the 12, did; 4 Irish, 3 Welsh, 2 Scottish and 2 Italian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011%E2%80%9312_Heineken_Cup#Teams

Shifty wrote:

profitius wrote:

Shifty wrote:It's a rubbish product from top to bottom.  Welsh fans have voted with their feet already.  

Can you back that up with attendance figures?

All I know is according to some Welsh the league is sh!t and dragging them down. Not the other way around!  

The Italians, Scots and Irish just get on with it and have been making progress.

Yes the Ospreys are losing about 750 fans per season in terms of attendances, and that's despite them giving season tickets away.

Is the loss of fans not down to a number of things including the loss of Welsh internationals and having a bad season... last season? It's only around a year ago that the Ospreys got 10k for an Ulster match in the pro 12.

Some fans on here thought that the Ospreys would finish below the Dragons this season so it's no wonder they lost some ST holders after the likes of Hibbard left in the summer. Get the Welsh stars back in the country and the Os could average 9-10k a game.

CD - The 4 Irish and 4 Welsh teams were competing for places. Connacht got through after the season ended.

The Great Aukster wrote:CD - The 4 Irish and 4 Welsh teams were competing for places. Connacht got through after the season ended.

All we had to do was top the Drags and both Italian teams were in anyway. Very different now which is good.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

quinsforever wrote:its going to be unpopular for me to say it, but the changes of enforcing qualification to Europe from within the pro12 is ultimately imo the best shot at improving over time the attraction of pro12 to viewers. Tighter games with real bite involved, all the way down to 8th place

Two thirds of the teams in the pro12 have been fighting for qualification for years - the changes won't make the slightest difference so not unpopular at all.

Not much of a fight really in 2011/2012 for example. Only the Drags didn't qualify for the HEC. The remaining 11 from the 12, did; 4 Irish, 3 Welsh, 2 Scottish and 2 Italian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011%E2%80%9312_Heineken_Cup#Teams

Connacht qualified because Leinster won either the Amlin or Heineken Cup which used to give the winners of these competition a spot the following year.

The Dragons got a Heineiken Cup spot I think when Cardiff won the Amlin.

Sin é wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

quinsforever wrote:its going to be unpopular for me to say it, but the changes of enforcing qualification to Europe from within the pro12 is ultimately imo the best shot at improving over time the attraction of pro12 to viewers. Tighter games with real bite involved, all the way down to 8th place

Two thirds of the teams in the pro12 have been fighting for qualification for years - the changes won't make the slightest difference so not unpopular at all.

Not much of a fight really in 2011/2012 for example. Only the Drags didn't qualify for the HEC. The remaining 11 from the 12, did; 4 Irish, 3 Welsh, 2 Scottish and 2 Italian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011%E2%80%9312_Heineken_Cup#Teams

Connacht qualified because Leinster won either the Amlin or Heineken Cup which used to give the winners of these competition a spot the following year.

The Dragons got a Heineiken Cup spot I think when Cardiff won the Amlin.

Year before I think and the Drags played 6, lost 6 according to wiki.

Sin é wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

quinsforever wrote:its going to be unpopular for me to say it, but the changes of enforcing qualification to Europe from within the pro12 is ultimately imo the best shot at improving over time the attraction of pro12 to viewers. Tighter games with real bite involved, all the way down to 8th place

Two thirds of the teams in the pro12 have been fighting for qualification for years - the changes won't make the slightest difference so not unpopular at all.

Not much of a fight really in 2011/2012 for example. Only the Drags didn't qualify for the HEC. The remaining 11 from the 12, did; 4 Irish, 3 Welsh, 2 Scottish and 2 Italian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011%E2%80%9312_Heineken_Cup#Teams

Connacht qualified because Leinster won either the Amlin or Heineken Cup which used to give the winners of these competition a spot the following year.

The Dragons got a Heineiken Cup spot I think when Cardiff won the Amlin.

Think that was actually the Scarlets. I'll never forget it as it was typical that one of the few times we got in directly by league position, the team we finished above got in anyway. Nobody helps us Dragons out though

Yep. Dragons finish 7th, above Scarlets and Ulster. Connacht were bottom (only 10 teams)

Hound of Harrow wrote:Has the qualification/seeding process for the new European Cup not helped already?

I record and watch a number of Pro12 games and, to a neutral, the commitment at the breakdown and the tackle from most teams has been way better. The quality of the back line play has been a mixed bag for me. Lots of dropped passes and inaccurate passes.

Overall it's improved imo.

Just get those Italians up to speed.

Its made no difference at all apart from perhaps some negativity creeping It does amuse me how those3 english fans just have to try to justify the PRLs actions continuously. we are not fooled you know

Ok I have been thinking about this, for me I think the Pro12 has ran it's course, its old hat and there is not enough interest in it, perhaps a whole new sructure needs looking at, perhaps trying the model American sports have, we could have three regional pools, a Welsh one an Irish one and a Scottish and Italian one, each team plays each other over six weeks in their pool then the top two go through to another pool, the bottom two all go in to a lower pool, we can then get a situation where the top four of each pool go into the playoffs. Now all we need is proper refs and a league that is not geared up to keep the Irish happy and on top all the time.

To be honest, especialy what has gone on over the last few days, I am realy peeved with the Pro12 at the moment and I know a lot of other people who are as well, there is starting to get a little unrest in the support for Welsh rugby as regards to the Pro12 as of late, and the more things that keep happening like what we have whitnesed this week, the stronger the support will get for the people who want nothing to do with it.

I might buck the trend here, but I think the Pro 12 is building fairly well and doesn’t need a radical overhaul.

We’ve got a major sponsor & we’ve got Sky involved so there is clearly interest in the product.  Coming at this from a mainly Scottish viewpoint, Glasgow are near enough selling out their stadium for most home games, Edinburgh, whilst not even close to filling Murrayfield are at least beginning to be competitive again.

The league in itself is largely competitive, and the odd shocks do happen, plus the rugby played by a good number of the teams is enjoyable to watch.  So from that perspective I think it’s pretty good.

I do like the idea of maybe creating a Pro12 Division 2, but maybe we could leave that a year or two until Edinburgh are a bit stronger.  Then maybe bring in some teams from outwith the celtic nations (and Italy) to help grow the brand.  And again from a selfish viewpoint a slightly weaker league (as in 2nd division) would help bring along a 3rd Scottish team.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Shifty wrote:

profitius wrote:

Shifty wrote:It's a rubbish product from top to bottom.  Welsh fans have voted with their feet already.  

Can you back that up with attendance figures?

All I know is according to some Welsh the league is sh!t and dragging them down. Not the other way around!  

The Italians, Scots and Irish just get on with it and have been making progress.

Yes the Ospreys are losing about 750 fans per season in terms of attendances, and that's despite them giving season tickets away.

Is the loss of fans not down to a number of things including the loss of Welsh internationals and having a bad season... last season? It's only around a year ago that the Ospreys got 10k for an Ulster match in the pro 12.

Some fans on here thought that the Ospreys would finish below the Dragons this season so it's no wonder they lost some ST holders after the likes of Hibbard left in the summer. Get the Welsh stars back in the country and the Os could average 9-10k a game.

I agree with this post. It's what I've been arguing on the other thread re. attendances. I think the fans are there, as has been proved in the past with bigger attendances (not huge, but bigger). They just need something good to encourage them to go watch a game. We keep saying 'success' generates support, but that can also mean having star players who are perhaps (relatively) successful elsewhere (e.g. with Wales, or a world cup winning All Black). When the fans see the good players leave they are bound to feel that their chances of success as a team are lowered and perhaps do not feel the urge to go out in the wind, rain and hail.

Just as an aside, I can't help but feel that the 'day out' factor has had an impact too. It could be due to the timings of the games, but when I was a Newport RFC season ticket holder the club used to put on a supporters village in front of the club house with a hog roast, steel band, real ales, etc. Not every week, but often enough. So if the rugby was sh*te at least there's an incentive to come back for the pre-match entertainment. AND, something to take the kids to. Now at the Dragons it's a case of ship 'em in and out ASAP. There's nothing to get me to the ground before the game or stay around afterwards, unless I want to stand in that glorified social club that is the clubhouse. For some with other commitments such as family, a Dragons game could be an opportunity to do something with the family. But not when kick off is past 7 on a Friday and the game is the only thing to do there.

Another thing Newport used to do was put on a junior game on the pitch before/at half time. So you had these kids swelling the numbers and all of the parents and family friends coming to watch their kinds playing ion the hallowed turf. Only a small thing but fairly easy do organise and put on. But we do not see that now at the Dragons. Poor show.

It's not the only answer, but currently I feel at the Dragons you only get the diehards in. They're the ones who will be there drinking the same ale in all weathers even if the Dragons were officially named a development region. They don't care (about the offering) - they just want to be at a game. So we need to get back and/or entice the causal supporter and families who have been there in the past. That will swell the numbers. I know they're out there, because I am one and so are a lot of my pals.

Lord Dowlais - what would the welsh like? Its really as far as I can see the welsh who are dissatisfied it it appears to me this is the loss of the welsh clubs. a 2 division pro 12 would have enough space in it for 8 - 10 welsh teams - which would mean the welsh could revert to their clubs by and large -would that help? You have to look at the wider picture which is why I support the inclusion of the Italian teams

the welsh are never going to get into the english leagues that I can see - so where else do you go? Something like this needs compromise

We do have a similar situation in some ways in that the borders seem to prefer their clubs even at a lower level to getting a joint bornders pro 12 team. Glasgow are showing the way in how to make a pro 12 team work. they are now a real club with a rising following and some success. Your idea for regional conferences - would not work - Scotland and Italy cannot have enough top teams to make it work.

TJ wrote:Lord Dowlais - what would the welsh like?  Its really as far as I can see the welsh who are dissatisfied it it appears to me this is the loss of the welsh clubs.  a 2 division pro 12 would have enough space in it for 8 - 10 welsh teams - which would mean the welsh could revert to their clubs by and large -would that help?  You have to look at the wider picture which is why I support the inclusion of the Italian teams

the welsh are never going to get into the english leagues that I can see - so where else do you go?  Something like this needs compromise

We do have a similar situation in some ways in that the borders seem to prefer their clubs even at a lower level to getting a joint bornders pro 12 team.  Glasgow are showing the way in how to make a pro 12 team work.  they are now a real club with a rising following and some success.  Your idea for regional conferences - would not work - Scotland and Italy cannot have enough top teams to make it work.

If we had the Welsh derbies all close together in a 6 week block at the start of the season, it might entice more fans, then when they go into the other groups the extra fans might stay and support their regions against the other provinces. Sadly, but true, more and more people are getting fed up with the Pro12 here in Wales, I know they are at the Ospreys, you are always getting fans saying, "why do we always get an Irish ref when we are playing the Irish teams, both home and away ?". This is causing people to think rightly or wrongly, that the league is geared towards the Irish provinces, then we get the news this week that the final will be in Belfast, then you can see why people would think this way, whether they are wrong or right.

Problem with the start of the season is that a lot of the players are with team Wales during the summer and are missing from pre-season and sometimes the beginning of the season. This was pointed out when some English folk suggested having their big 2 game derby at the MS at the start of the season to build the anticipation.

Wales do not have any players away for the start of the season, not unless it is a world cup year.

Griff, I think given how poor the Dragons have over the last few seasons, I think they get great support! They are averaging around 6500 this season which would be up there with the likes of LI and Sale.

LordDowlais wrote:Wales do not have any players away for the start of the season, not unless it is a world cup year.

1. They're always injured at the start of the year.
2. Dual contracts.

The Saint wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Wales do not have any players away for the start of the season, not unless it is a world cup year.

1. They're always injured at the start of the year.
2. Dual contracts.

Surely the DC players would be able to play in a Welsh derby ?

Also, AWJ and Dan Biggar were not injured at the start of this season. I am sure there could be more.

Shifty wrote:

profitius wrote:

Shifty wrote:It's a rubbish product from top to bottom.  Welsh fans have voted with their feet already.  

Can you back that up with attendance figures?

All I know is according to some Welsh the league is sh!t and dragging them down. Not the other way around!  

The Italians, Scots and Irish just get on with it and have been making progress.

Yes the Ospreys are losing about 750 fans per season in terms of attendances, and that's despite them giving season tickets away.

There are no free season tickets, not even children have free season tickets.

LordDowlais wrote:

The Saint wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Wales do not have any players away for the start of the season, not unless it is a world cup year.

1. They're always injured at the start of the year.
2. Dual contracts.

Surely the DC players would be able to play in a Welsh derby ?

Also, AWJ and Dan Biggar were not injured at the start of this season. I am sure there could be more.

At the start of the season though? As that is what we were clearly talking about. In the past a lot of our injured internationals were mostly injured at the start of the season, regardless of whether it isn't Lions or RWC year. The Irish usually rest their internationals at that point in the season too, so perhaps the Regions will also rest their DC players at that point.

Anyway, I am just trying to come up with idea's because it is clear as day, people in Wales are fed up or just plain not interested with the PRO12 anymore.

LordDowlais wrote:Anyway, I am just trying to come up with idea's because it is clear as day, people in Wales are fed up or just plain not interested with the PRO12 anymore.

How is it clear as day? Because you say so? Staggering arrogance.

Lord Dowlais - the Scottish Derby is played over new year home and away and has become a real attraction in its own right - the oldest derby game is a bit of nonsense tho - the cup is only a few years old, the teams that played 100years ago are not the same outfits as now or even really ancestors of them, the rivalry and interest has all be created the last few years.

I think the issue in 'Wales is the infighting and tribalism - that I simply do not understand. t he Por 12 is the only game in town for the welsh teams - so get behind it