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First topic message reminder :

After their defeat of Wales at the Millennium, England has gained sufficient points to overtake Ireland as they gained no points.

The bookies have adjusted their odds on the Six Nations with England now as favourites.

A sigh of relief has descended on the emerald isle.

Each to their own. Perhaps some people stop watching if they lose the first two games (after all, what's the point if you can't win). Personally I take each game as it comes.

Gwlad wrote:Consistently 2nd best. Sounds just awesome.

Tries  points and wins, and table leader, consistently 1st in all categories,  -since 6n was inaugurated. Most consistent team in its history.

Have won only one competition in 12 years and not beaten all comers in a round robin for 12 years. Ouch.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Consistently finishing 2nd.

Your other half is spoiled.

Submachine wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Consistently finishing 2nd.

Your other half is spoiled.

The smut on these boards!

No 7&1/2 wrote:The smut on these boards!

Indeed. On first reading, I wondered what had happened to Hammer as he typed this:

HammerofThunor wrote:So England are consistently the second best team in the 6 nations? ...  Prefer that to consistently the 3rd or 4th best in the world. As long as we don't come [shudder] 5th.

offload wrote:

Submachine wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Consistently finishing 2nd.

Your other half is spoiled.

England 1 1 2 1 3 4 4 3 2 2 3 1 2 2 2     33  2.2
Ireland 3 2 3 2 2 3 2 2 4 1 2 3 3 5 1      38  2.5
France 2 5 6 3 1 2 1 1 3 3 1 2 4 6 4      44  2.9
Wales 4 4 5 6 4 1 5 5 1 4 4 4 1 1 3      52  3.5
Scotland 5 3 4 4 6 5 3 6 5 5 5 5 6 3 5     70  4.7
Italy 6 6 6 5 5 6 6 4 6 6 6 6 5 4 6      83  5.5

Taking an average of finishing places across the 15 years of the 6N, England are ranked the highest.  Ireland take second spot.

Maybe I should revise the title...... England still in first place in the Six Nations......hmmmm

Pot Hale wrote:England 1 1 2 1 3 4 4 3 2 2 3 1 2 2 2     33  2.2
Ireland 3 2 3 2 2 3 2 2 4 1 2 3 3 5 1      38  2.5
France 2 5 6 3 1 2 1 1 3 3 1 2 4 6 4       44  2.9
Wales 4 4 5 6 4 1 5 5 1 4 4 4 1 1 3        52  3.5
Scotland 5 3 4 4 6 5 3 6 5 5 5 5 6 3 5    70  4.7
Italy 6 6 6 5 5 6 6 4 6 6 6 6 5 4 6          83  5.5

Taking an average of finishing places across the 15 years of the 6N, England are ranked the highest.  Ireland take second spot.

You forgot to include England beating the French at Trafalgar.

Gwlad wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:England 1 1 2 1 3 4 4 3 2 2 3 1 2 2 2     33  2.2
Ireland 3 2 3 2 2 3 2 2 4 1 2 3 3 5 1      38  2.5
France 2 5 6 3 1 2 1 1 3 3 1 2 4 6 4       44  2.9
Wales 4 4 5 6 4 1 5 5 1 4 4 4 1 1 3        52  3.5
Scotland 5 3 4 4 6 5 3 6 5 5 5 5 6 3 5    70  4.7
Italy 6 6 6 5 5 6 6 4 6 6 6 6 5 4 6          83  5.5

Taking an average of finishing places across the 15 years of the 6N, England are ranked the highest.  Ireland take second spot.

You forgot to include England beating the French at Trafalgar.

No - that was in 1805, long before Ellis decided to get his hands dirty.....

Pot Hale wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:England 1 1 2 1 3 4 4 3 2 2 3 1 2 2 2     33  2.2
Ireland 3 2 3 2 2 3 2 2 4 1 2 3 3 5 1      38  2.5
France 2 5 6 3 1 2 1 1 3 3 1 2 4 6 4       44  2.9
Wales 4 4 5 6 4 1 5 5 1 4 4 4 1 1 3        52  3.5
Scotland 5 3 4 4 6 5 3 6 5 5 5 5 6 3 5    70  4.7
Italy 6 6 6 5 5 6 6 4 6 6 6 6 5 4 6          83  5.5

Taking an average of finishing places across the 15 years of the 6N, England are ranked the highest.  Ireland take second spot.

You forgot to include England beating the French at Trafalgar.

No - that was in 1805, long before Ellis decided to get his hands dirty.....

Lets take the last 10 years

Englsh average position 2.5
Wales 3.0

During said period Wales have won it 4 times, England once

But of course because England's average position is less they are more successful

I do hope Germany realizes that they did ok in WW2 by coming 2nd, that Argentina don't worry too much about number plates after they too accept 2nd is fine, that Andy murray takes solace n coming 2nd at Wimbledon this year and that my misses is also satisfied with coming 2nd if at all!!!!!!

england are more consistent than wales.

that is in rugby terms the least controversial statement i think i have ever made

quinsforever wrote:england are more consistent than wales.

that is in rugby terms the least controversial statement i think i have ever made

I concur, more radical outlandish statements like that from you quins and you'll be getting a nosebleed!

Pot Hale wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:The smut on these boards!

Indeed.  On first reading, I wondered what had happened to Hammer as he typed this:

HammerofThunor wrote:So England are consistently the second best team in the 6 nations? ...  Prefer that to consistently the 3rd or 4th best in the world. As long as we don't come [shudder] 5th.

Any win in Cardiff is a big deal, especially after the previous game. I'm allowed to celebrate

Gwlad wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:England 1 1 2 1 3 4 4 3 2 2 3 1 2 2 2     33  2.2
Ireland 3 2 3 2 2 3 2 2 4 1 2 3 3 5 1      38  2.5
France 2 5 6 3 1 2 1 1 3 3 1 2 4 6 4       44  2.9
Wales 4 4 5 6 4 1 5 5 1 4 4 4 1 1 3        52  3.5
Scotland 5 3 4 4 6 5 3 6 5 5 5 5 6 3 5    70  4.7
Italy 6 6 6 5 5 6 6 4 6 6 6 6 5 4 6          83  5.5

Taking an average of finishing places across the 15 years of the 6N, England are ranked the highest.  Ireland take second spot.

You forgot to include England beating the French at Trafalgar.

No - that was in 1805, long before Ellis decided to get his hands dirty.....

Lets take the last 10 years

Englsh average position 2.5
Wales 3.0

During said period Wales have won it 4 times, England once

But of course because England's average position is less they are more successful

I do hope Germany realizes that they did ok in WW2 by coming 2nd, that Argentina don't worry too much about number plates after they too accept 2nd is fine, that Andy murray takes solace n coming 2nd at Wimbledon this year and that my misses is also satisfied with coming 2nd if at all!!!!!!

You do realise that:

a) I'm not an England fan
b) I was contesting England's claim on 2nd spot - that belongs to Ireland.... nobody cares who came first.....
c) nothing in this topic should be taken too seriously

HammerofThunor wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:The smut on these boards!

Indeed.  On first reading, I wondered what had happened to Hammer as he typed this:

HammerofThunor wrote:So England are consistently the second best team in the 6 nations? ...  Prefer that to consistently the 3rd or 4th best in the world. As long as we don't come [shudder] 5th.

Any win in Cardiff is a big deal, especially after the previous game. I'm allowed to celebrate

Preferably not on your own though.....

It's not as bad as it sounds. But I couldn't go further than four.

HammerofThunor wrote:It's not as bad as it sounds. But I couldn't go further than four.

Quite. A man dedicated to showing the path to manly excellence never would.

So, no matter how poor England have been on average over the last 10 years of the 6N, they haven't been as poor, on average as Wales.

Steve_rugby wrote:So, no matter how poor England have been on average over the last 10 years of the 6N, they haven't been as poor, on average as Wales.

This is not something to write home about - trust me.

HammerofThunor wrote:Each to their own. Perhaps some people stop watching if they lose the first two games (after all, what's the point if you can't win). Personally I take each game as it comes.

HT

That's the difference between being an England fan and being a welsh fan, England peak early and by the end they are unable to win a game, Wales start with a poor performance and improve..

The Irish are generally more consistent in their performances.

First, last year we lost our first game. The year before that the last game. The year before that it was our 3rd game. The year before that it was the last game. In each year only one game was lost (and that's been Ireland once, Wales twice, France once and Ireland once.

Second, what the hell does that have to do with fans?

Honestly you're making no sense at all.

Also, last year Wales lost their 2nd and 4th games, the year before their 1st game, the year before that none (whoop whoop), the year before that they lost their 1st and last games.

So I really don't see what facts your premise is based on.

Ah PotHale,

You cheeky, little leprechaun. You pretended to throw out a little bait, but instead it was a giant stick of dynamite. So many fish caught!


I raise my hat.

HammerofThunor wrote:Also, last year Wales lost their 2nd and 4th games, the year before their 1st game, the year before that none (whoop whoop), the year before that they lost their 1st and last games.

So I really don't see what facts your premise is based on.

England don't improve during the six nations. They start well then dwindle, results sometimes show that, sometimes don't. But by the third game in every 6N over the last few years, they level of performance starts to wane.

Complacency in self belief?

Wow. You're hurt aren't you maes. It's not your fault, it's not your fault (repeat doing Robin Williams impression).

maestegmafia disagree.

Under Lancaster England started quite badly - in his 1st year they laboured to an edgy win with Chargedown charlie being the decisive player against Scotland.

Finished with a big win vs Ireland.

2nd year - started strongly vs Scotland but finished poorly vs Wales

3rd year - started poorly vs France, finished strongly vs Italy

4th year - 1st half started poorly vs Wales, recovered to win the match.

So in general England have got better as the tournament has gone on except for 2013.


2013 was also the 6 nations when Lancaster made bizarre positional changes like Wood at 8 and Brown on the left wing.

Doesn't look like we'll need to be see those changes again!

beshocked wrote:maestegmafia disagree.

Under Lancaster England started quite badly - in his 1st year they laboured to an edgy win with Chargedown charlie being the decisive player against Scotland.

Finished with a big win vs Ireland.

2nd year - started strongly vs Scotland but finished poorly vs Wales

3rd year - started poorly vs France, finished strongly vs Italy

4th year - 1st half started poorly vs Wales, recovered to win the match.

So in general England have got better as the tournament has gone on except for 2013.


2013 was also the 6 nations when Lancaster made bizarre positional changes like Wood at 8 and Brown on the left wing.

Doesn't look like we'll need to be see those changes again!

I was referring to performances not just results.

Performances or results whatever. England have been better in the last game under Lancaster bar the freak 2013 result.

maestegmafia wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Also, last year Wales lost their 2nd and 4th games, the year before their 1st game, the year before that none (whoop whoop), the year before that they lost their 1st and last games.

So I really don't see what facts your premise is based on.

England don't improve during the six nations. They start well then dwindle, results sometimes show that, sometimes don't. But by the third game in every 6N over the last few years, they level of performance starts to wane.

In your opinion, of course.

Complacency in self belief?

No point really discussing it until you convince people of your premise.

And you still haven't cleared up why, even if your premise is accepted, it has any impact on Welsh and English fans. After all you said that was the difference in Wales and England fans. Still no idea what you mean by that.

maestegmafia wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Also, last year Wales lost their 2nd and 4th games, the year before their 1st game, the year before that none (whoop whoop), the year before that they lost their 1st and last games.

So I really don't see what facts your premise is based on.

England don't improve during the six nations. They start well then dwindle, results sometimes show that, sometimes don't. But by the third game in every 6N over the last few years, they level of performance starts to wane.

Complacency in self belief?

That's true of 2011 and 2013. Can't think of any other years it applies to.

2008 we ended with a big win over Ireland (33-10 I think). Cipriani's game.
2009 we ended with a 34-10 win over France and then comfortable win over Scotland.
2010 we started well against Wales but were hopeless after that vs Italy, Ireland and Scotland. Narrow loss to France (GS winners) was probably the most encouraging performance of the lot.
2012 we ended with a comprehensive win over Ireland.
2014 with a 42 point away win in Italy.

So basically what you're saying applies to two of the last eight years which are more high profile than the others because of the circumstances. Not "every" year as you said.

Pot Hale wrote:England  1 1 2 1 3 4 4 3 2 2 3 1 2 2 2      33  2.2
Ireland   3 2 3 2 2 3 2 2 4 1 2 3 3 5 1      38  2.5
France    2 5 6 3 1 2 1 1 3 3 1 2 4 6 4      44  2.9
Wales     4 4 5 6 4 1 5 5 1 4 4 4 1 1 3      52  3.5
Scotland 5 3 4 4 6 5 3 6 5 5 5 5 6 3 5      70  4.7
Italy       6 6 6 5 5 6 6 4 6 6 6 6 5 4 6      83  5.5

Taking an average of finishing places across the 15 years of the 6N, England are ranked the highest.  Ireland take second spot.

Maybe I should revise the title...... England still in first place in the Six Nations......hmmmm

Ah but you fail to bear in mind the effect of standard deviation. I knew you would.

(NB: you have also harshly awarded 6 points for France's 2002 Grand Slam effort - their "true" average is 2.6)
(NB2: I have made no further effort to verify the data, as all the numbers add up to the total they should [(1+2+3+4+5+6)*15], so they represent a valid dataset, if not a true one).

England have a standard deviation of 1.014, Ireland, 1.060. So not only are we better than Ireland in average terms (that's better on average, not better at being average), we are also more consistent. Therefore we win this year's and last year's Six Nations. A DHL courier man will be round between 6am tomorrow and 19:33 on 7 May 2016 to collect our trophy. Alternatively, you may have Mary Robinson march across the grass of the Lansdowne Road pitch to hand it to Robshaw before the game this year, for old time's sake.

We normally say it depends what France team turns up, and their inconsistency is borne out by their standard deviation of 1.594 in finishing position, but Wales have an even higher standard deviation of 1.685, showing they are more erratic than France. I would therefore appreciate if we could collectively make "It depends what Wales team turn up" the go-to Six Nations cliché, and leave off the slightly-more-predictable France.

Scotland have a low standard deviation of 1.047. Couple this with their average, and their standard range is between 3.6th and 5.7th. Seeing as they have never finished 1st or 2nd in the Six Nations, this appears to be a valid model (allowing for nematodes), therefore proving the credibility of every other statement in this post. I will point to this indisputable fact should anyone disagree with me. On anything. Ever.

Finally, we have Italy. The worst average. But the least deviating, with a standard deviation of 0.743. If you want a model of how to achieve consistent results, I suggest following the Italian model of "lose a lot".

Questions?

And if you look at the mode of the data you get France coming 1st most often, England and Ireland coming second, Wales 4th, Scotland 5th and Italy 6th.

Just saying...

median...

just saying...

The mode is my least favourite statistical average. Closely followed by anything else that doesn't result in England coming out on top.

quinsforever wrote:median...

just saying...

France median value is 3. Others are the same

of course!

well on an anti-mode ranking, england come top...never having finished 5th or 6th?

Love the median. See you later, France.

robbo277 wrote:The mode is my least favourite statistical average. Closely followed by anything else that doesn't result in England coming out on top.

It has it's uses.

does anyone remember who was the 2nd best team from 1970-1979?

No... because it doesn't matter.

Titles matter.

The only 6N honour role worth looking at is from 2000-present is....

France 5
Wales 4
England 4
Ireland 2
Scotland 0
Italy 0

fa0019 wrote:does anyone remember who was the 2nd best team from 1970-1979?

No... because it doesn't matter.

Titles matter.

The only 6N honour role worth looking at is from 2000-present is....

France 5
Wales 4
England 4
Ireland 2
Scotland 0
Italy 0

I wasn't alive back then. Trophies are what counts though.

Half the time coming 2nd or coming 4th is how well you knock Italy over and receive superior points difference.

fa0019 wrote:Half the time coming 2nd or coming 4th is how well you knock Italy over and receive superior points difference.

That wasn't the case anytime Ireland came second really. Italy is more often the difference between 1st and 2nd.

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Half the time coming 2nd or coming 4th is how well you knock Italy over and receive superior points difference.

That wasn't the case anytime Ireland came second really. Italy is more often the difference between 1st and 2nd.

Just looked and there has been 3 occasions when points diff has determined places 2-4. So half the time perhaps not. 22% of the time however

fa0019 wrote:Half the time coming 2nd or coming 4th is how well you knock Italy over and receive superior points difference.

actually, half the time 1st or second is decided by how many points are scored vs italy. 7 out of 15 championships. almost never is it between 2nd and 4th

Any time Ireland came second they won the triple crown so points difference didn't factor.

quinsforever wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Half the time coming 2nd or coming 4th is how well you knock Italy over and receive superior points difference.

actually, half the time 1st or second is decided by how many points are scored vs italy. 7 out of 15 championships. almost never is it between 2nd and 4th

That's more or less what I said.

you obviously copied what i was about to write

GunsGerms wrote:Any time Ireland came second they won the triple crown so points difference didn't factor.

06-07 right.

Those pesky French!

Great era of rugby. BOD at his magical best, Shane Bryne's mullet and ROG's was even up with his bookies at that point... how times have changed huh.