Ireland V France

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IRELAND v FRANCE
14 February 2015
KO: 17:00
Aviva Stadium, Dublin

Referee: Wayne Barnes (RFU)
AR1: Nigel Owens (WRU)
AR2: Stuart Berry (SARU)
TMO: Graham Hughes (RFU)

IRELAND

15 Rob Kearney
14 Tommy Bowe
13 Jared Payne
12 Robbie Henshaw
11 Simon Zebo
10 Johnny Sexton
9 Conor Murray

1 Jack McGrath
2 Rory Best
3 Mike Ross
4 Devin Toner
5 Paul O'Connell (c)
6 Peter O'Mahony
7 Sean O'Brien
8 Jamie Heaslip

16 Sean Cronin, 17 Cian Healy, 18 Martin Moore, 19 Iain Henderson, 20 Jordi Murphy, 21 Isaac Boss, 22 Ian Madigan, 23 Felix Jones

FRANCE

15 Scott Spedding
14 Yoann Huget
13 Mathieu Bastareaud
12 Wesley Fofana
11 Teddy Thomas
10 Camille Lopez
9 Rory Kockott

1 Eddy Ben Arous
2 Guilhem Guirado
3 Rabah Slimani
4 Pascal Papé
5 Yoann Maestri
6 Thierry Dusautoir (c)
7 Bernard Le Roux
8 Damien Chouly

16 Benjamin Kayser, 17 Uini Atonio, 18 Vincent Debaty, 19 Romain Taofifenua, 20 Loann Goujon, 21 Morgan Parra, 22 Rémi Talès, 23 Rémi Lamerat

*****
This is an interesting battle, and very much a case of brains v brawn.
French flair is long gone, they now rely on the likes of Bastareaud and their pack of overweight lumps to get over the line.
Ireland are very much a team of robots, Joe gives instructions on how to dismantle a team like IKEA gives instructions on how to make a cupboard. With the right personnel in Sexton, SOB and the likes of Heaslip at the helm, they should be able to devour the French fatties like they're the last square of a Kinder Bueno.
All logic points to an Irish victory, but as so often happens the French defy logic.

Sin é wrote:

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:rubbish, joe has played mcfadden there

Fergus isn't top of the Q for a back 3 place - he seems to be regarded as a utility/injury cover player more than anything else.

and so Earls can fit in that bracket.

Anyway thats besides the. Schmidt does not pick players simply because their size. earls is a better attacking threat than both Zebo and Jones and he is certainly on a par with both in defence

ME-109 wrote:Not sure what the argument is about. The blueprint from Joe is non-negotiable the team adhere to it...we win (isnt that what its all about). Isnt that why Fly and the blue rinsed brigade wanted Joe in the first place...nothing to do with the so called scintillating rugby (courtesy of Cheika).

Anyhow winning is everything. It might be boring and wimbledonesque in terms of how we play but results are everything...

Here is the recent team meeting and game plan discussions...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXa9tXcMhXQ

Fantastic reference.

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:

Sin é wrote:

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:rubbish, joe has played mcfadden there

Fergus isn't top of the Q for a back 3 place - he seems to be regarded as a utility/injury cover player more than anything else.

and so Earls can fit in that bracket.

Anyway thats besides the. Schmidt does not pick players simply because their size. earls is a better attacking threat than both Zebo and Jones and he is certainly on a par with both in defence

Zebo was as good an attacking threat as any before Schmidt got him in his hands!

Both Zebo & Jones are better than Earls in the air for Schmidt preferred attacking mode - kick and chase.

Earls would be better at resourcing rucks and he would be more a ball in hand man.

Earls has been in very good for and has been looking very sharp. If he plays well this weekend then he must certainly be in the reckoning for at least a place on the bench. As much as I like Jones, I would have Earls ahead of him on the bench as there is enough players with plenty of fullback experience that can cover 15 in the event of an injury.

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:If Earls plays against the Scarlets next weekend, I'd say he will be in the mix for England (probably from the bench). He is looking very sharp now.

So is Dennis Hurley.

Yea he is in good form. Earls managed to offload successfully surrounded by 6 Cardiff players.

Rubbish. If they had successfully surrounded him he never would have managed that offload.

Ireland are missing their two most lethal try scorers from last season - Sexton is still rusty and Trimble is injured.

Submachine wrote:

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:If Earls plays against the Scarlets next weekend, I'd say he will be in the mix for England (probably from the bench). He is looking very sharp now.

So is Dennis Hurley.

Yea he is in good form. Earls managed to offload successfully surrounded by 6 Cardiff players.

Rubbish. If they had successfully surrounded him he never would have managed that offload.

Just watch this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vr7HAgAt7zY

From about 30 secs in.

The Great Aukster wrote:Ireland are missing their two most lethal try scorers from last season - Sexton is still rusty and Trimble is injured.

Surely Bowe is regarded as being as lethal as Trimble who is playing on the right wing.

Submachine wrote:
Sin é wrote:
rodders wrote:
Sin é wrote:
If Earls plays against the Scarlets next weekend, I'd say he will be in the mix for England (probably from the bench). He is looking very sharp now.





So is Dennis Hurley.

Yea he is in good form. Earls managed to offload successfully surrounded by 6 Cardiff players.

Rubbish. If they had successfully surrounded him he never would have managed that offload.

The offload was successful not the 'surrounding'. A comma after the Successfully would have prevented this embarrassing misunderstanding!

Sin é wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Ireland are missing their two most lethal try scorers from last season - Sexton is still rusty and Trimble is injured.

Surely Bowe is regarded as being as lethal as Trimble who is playing on the right wing.

This reinforces my point - of the players available Joe has picked the most potent attacking ones we have pretty much, or at least had a look at them in Gilroy, Fitzgerald and Earls case.

It's not like he's deliberately picking a conservative type of player. Irrespective of the tactics it's up to the players to create and score the tries on the field.

If you look at the RCC none of the provinces were creating a lot against the top sides so I don't really understand peoples expectations here.... I'd say we are punching well above our weight at the minute with the squad available and have been for the last 18 months.

That's not to say we can't improve - definitely we've left a few points on the field lately and there are players to come back and also to gain full fitness - Trimble, O'Brien, Ruddock, Healy, Earls, Fitzgerald, Sexton, Henderson, Reddan and Henry for a start - but the important thing is to grind out results when not firing on all cylinders.

Not sure we are punching above our weight but we are certainly playing to our strengths.

GunsGerms wrote:Not sure we are punching above our weight but we are certainly playing to our strengths.

Probably the wrong terminology but if you'd sat down in January 2014 would you have taken 9 wins from 10 - a 6N title, a clean sweep tour win in Argentina, wins over SA and Australia and back to back wins over France over the next year, if you were told over that period we'd be missing the following players for prolonged periods:-

SOB, Bowe, Ryan, Trimble, Earls, Healy - and in knowing that BOD and Ferris would be retiring during this period?

I would.

In fact I recall many people having fairly low expectations heading into both last years 6N and the Autumn series given the injuries and form of key players.

I wasnt pessimistic at all. All the talk was of a golden generation coming to an end.

My view all along was that was nonsense. We may not ever have another O'Driscoll or Ferris but there are class players coming through all the time because of the solid structures in place top to bottom in Irish rugby.

Sin é wrote:

Submachine wrote:

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:If Earls plays against the Scarlets next weekend, I'd say he will be in the mix for England (probably from the bench). He is looking very sharp now.

So is Dennis Hurley.

Yea he is in good form. Earls managed to offload successfully surrounded by 6 Cardiff players.

Rubbish. If they had successfully surrounded him he never would have managed that offload.

Just watch this.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vr7HAgAt7zY

From about 30 secs in.

Why are you not giving Earls grief for not trying to go on the outside like you have criticised Payne for earlier? Hurley did a great job to draw the defender and gave a perfect pass. Earls only had Patchell to beat and should have the gas to go round him. Even if Patchell covered well he could have just drawn him and put in the winger in support on his outside.
Instead he cut back inside allowing 6 Cardiff players an opportunity to scramble and almost tackle when they were out of the game from he initial break. He then pinballs around and fails to give an earlier pop to Hurley or Keatley ho were in support. Then spins around a bit more and eventually found JJ on the burst.
So visually it was an exciting try to watch but was almost butchered by taking the wrong option.

I think this whole thing is based on the premise he picked Dave Kearney over Zebo, therefore he hates flair and loves negative rugby or whatever. And the lack of offloads.

I'd like to see a bit more offloading in our game, but Irish sides have never used the offload very much. Mainly because it relies on having guys who can take contact, get over the gain line and get the hands free. We don't have many ball carriers of that ilk.

We've had to be smarter about the way we attack, with the profile of our side we're much better getting the ball to ground and trying to clear out the resulting ruck quickly than having guys hanging off waiting for the offload. Which ties back into the original point of Schmidt wanting guys who are good at the breakdown from 1 to 15. There is one thing we can learn from the likes of Australia (and Glasgow), and that is either the ball carrier or the first player to the ruck popping the ball up to the 9 off the floor when possible to keep the tempo high.

Thats been the problem Ireland have had in attack in the last few weeks; not a lack of offloads, but a lack of quick ruck ball. We need to be playing at a higher tempo, and Italy and France were allowed to dictate the tempo of the game because they dictated the breakdown. So we need improvement in that area, the rucks need cleared faster and more accurately. Then, by coincidence, Irelands backs will suddenly appear more 'creative' and 'attacking' once they have space to run into.

Submachine wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Submachine wrote:

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:If Earls plays against the Scarlets next weekend, I'd say he will be in the mix for England (probably from the bench). He is looking very sharp now.

So is Dennis Hurley.

Yea he is in good form. Earls managed to offload successfully surrounded by 6 Cardiff players.

Rubbish. If they had successfully surrounded him he never would have managed that offload.

Just watch this.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vr7HAgAt7zY

From about 30 secs in.

Why are you not giving Earls grief for not trying to go on the outside like you have criticised Payne for earlier? Hurley did a great job to draw the defender and gave a perfect pass. Earls only had Patchell to beat and should have the gas to go round him. Even if Patchell covered well he could have just drawn him and put in the winger in support on his outside.
Instead he cut back inside allowing 6 Cardiff players an opportunity to scramble and almost tackle when they were out of the game from he initial break. He then pinballs around and fails to give an earlier pop to Hurley or Keatley ho were in support. Then spins around a bit more and eventually found JJ on the burst.
So visually it was an exciting try to watch but was almost butchered by taking the wrong option.

1. Unlike Payne, Earls could have been tackled out of touch as he was very closed to the sideline. Payne was in the middle of the pitch.
2. Earls offloaded and did keep the ball moving.
3. The difference is that Earls didn't butcher the opportunity. Payne did.
4. I have no doubt that if either Earls, Bowe or Zebo were the ones who got that pass, they would have scored.

1) Payne was most certainly not in the middle of the pitch, he was by the touchline.
2) Earls had someone to offload too, Payne did not.
3) There wasn't really an opportunity to butcher it was either go on the outside and potentially get isolated/bundled into touch or cut back inside and keep the move going.
4) Nonsense. He gets the ball standing still by the touchline with no supporting players. It wasn't even a chance.

Notch wrote:I think this whole thing is based on the premise he picked Dave Kearney over Zebo, therefore he hates flair and loves negative rugby or whatever. And the lack of offloads.

I'd like to see a bit more offloading in our game, but Irish sides have never used the offload very much.

I recall us offloading a lot under Kidney and losing games - sepcifically the RWC QF against Wales, where we had 3 times as many offloads as they did.

If you aren't going forward then offloading will only put you in trouble - I think we haven't offloaded because we aren't getting the linebreaks or momentum and are being clever by not throwing the 50:50 ball - instead taking the deck and recycling - this is by design as its how Leinster used to play.

We are passing the ball a fair bit, which doesn't count as offloads  - I think the ambition is there but we just need to gel a bit more in attack - the players are there so don't see the panic that some have about the direction we are going... . I think the performances will improve... 

Keatley was nervous last week and Sexton a bit rusty so I'm surprised we've gelled as well as we have.

Okay - kweskin then................. for all the glass completely full guys

IF say Ireland, in present manifestation, were to be, let's say for argument, completely out-played by a charged and electrifying England in a first half (after having saved their best game for us out of respect for the idea that we're their greatest rivals in Europe at present).  Let's say they score three unanswered tries and a few penalties and go into the break on a cushion of something like 27 - 9.

Ireland seems gone to most observers.

Now, from a glass completely full perspective - does Ireland genuinely have the creative or muscle fight-back in them to eat into that English lead in the second half?  Keep in mind this is not an England that gets intimidated by any team anymore.  They have a solid 80 minutes of fight in them - always.

From what we've seen of Ireland to date, and our methods, do we have it technically in us to fight back and drag out a win?

If the answer is yes, then that's fine - the details might then be debated around the practicalities of that belief.  If the answer is No, then the overall answer is NO - we don't have enough tactically in our armoury yet, and the WC gets closer.  

It needs to be practiced before it can shine.  That more persistently aggressive attacking game needs to be practiced before it hopes to shine.  Schmidt knows the containment game is good enough to hold onto points - but we still need a 'chasing points' game to complete us.
England could well be the tough-love blessing in disguise that might force Ireland's hand - and force them to show us what they truly have in incisive attack.

That's a decent question SecretFly,

I feel that if that was the situation Ireland found themselves in then I truly believe that Ireland have the squad and players capable of performing such a fightback. That said, it would take Schmidt changing his gameplan and allowing the creative players to attack.

My point is, its all well and good having a gameplan to get leads and protect them but there has to be a plan B approach to give it all and go for it. If there is no preparation for a plan B attack game and Ireland find themselves in such a position and just go hell for leather with no structure then I believe that Ireland would get tonked by even more.

I would like to think that Schmidt is working with the team for such eventualities.

Sin é wrote:

Submachine wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Submachine wrote:

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:If Earls plays against the Scarlets next weekend, I'd say he will be in the mix for England (probably from the bench). He is looking very sharp now.

So is Dennis Hurley.

Yea he is in good form. Earls managed to offload successfully surrounded by 6 Cardiff players.

Rubbish. If they had successfully surrounded him he never would have managed that offload.

Just watch this.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vr7HAgAt7zY

From about 30 secs in.

Why are you not giving Earls grief for not trying to go on the outside like you have criticised Payne for earlier? Hurley did a great job to draw the defender and gave a perfect pass. Earls only had Patchell to beat and should have the gas to go round him. Even if Patchell covered well he could have just drawn him and put in the winger in support on his outside.
Instead he cut back inside allowing 6 Cardiff players an opportunity to scramble and almost tackle when they were out of the game from he initial break. He then pinballs around and fails to give an earlier pop to Hurley or Keatley ho were in support. Then spins around a bit more and eventually found JJ on the burst.
So visually it was an exciting try to watch but was almost butchered by taking the wrong option.

1. Unlike Payne, Earls could have been tackled out of touch as he was very closed to the sideline. Payne was in the middle of the pitch.
2. Earls offloaded and did keep the ball moving.
3. The difference is that Earls didn't butcher the opportunity. Payne did.
4. I have no doubt that if either Earls, Bowe or Zebo were the ones who got that pass, they would have scored.

You used this example to highlight Earls sharpness. I think it does the opposite. If he was back to full health, he burns Patchell on the outside. Is his top end speed back to the same level I seem to remember him almost being chased down in another pro 12 game recently. If he's fully mentally tuned in to the 13 role then he draws Patchell and feeds the support on the outside.
As it was he looked a little like BOD last year. Had space in front of him but didn't trust his pace. The big difference being that he was not fully aware of the options around him and only found an offload at the third time off offering by a team mate.
Personally, I think Earls is a top quality international winger. I'd be happy for him to play 13 for Ireland. I just don't think the clip you've chosen is the one to make his case.

Nachos Jones wrote:That's a decent question SecretFly,

I feel that if that was the situation Ireland found themselves in then I truly believe that Ireland have the squad and players capable of performing such a fightback. That said, it would take Schmidt changing his gameplan and allowing the creative players to attack.

My point is, its all well and good having a gameplan to get leads and protect them but there has to be a plan B approach to give it all and go for it. If there is no preparation for a plan B attack game and Ireland find themselves in such a position and just go hell for leather with no structure then I believe that Ireland would get tonked by even more.

I would like to think that Schmidt is working with the team for such eventualities.

There you go.  And that's my thinking, Nachos.  

If this Ireland loses its trump card - defence - and concede a number of tries,  then panicked, instinctive, individualistic off-the-cuff stuff won't drag us back.  It might even open us up to further embarrassment.  So we might have the players to chance that game (and let's face it, we'd have nothing to lose) but if we hadn't a more controlled version of attack ready then it's just lone-striker mavericks trying it on alone and probably many of them getting isolated and turned over in the process.

So Joe ain't dumb.  He's gotta be preparing his team for the 'surprise' defensive implosion and the need to clawback perhaps a big enough score against us.

In the absence of teams putting big scores on us so far, you then have to work out where you might practice the Plan B game?  I think you have to try it out by doing what England and Wales often do - and do an over-kill on a game or two.  Really hit the tempo hard and sustain it for lengthy periods .  At least then you have video in a real game of mistakes and errors that can be isolated and corrected in this much more vicious and aggressive attacking gameplan.  Right now, Joe has pretty much zilch video to work on, and yet he has to trust that the Plan B is there, ready and waiting and perfect

It is worth pointing out again that so much of this chat is based on an utterly false premise. Allowing 'creative players to attack' or playing 'heads up rugby' are meaningless soundbites of no relevance to Ireland's performances. It is hard to win matches when you have to throw all your forwards into the breakdown in order to shore up your own ball, allowing France to dedicate fewer resources to those areas and instead pack the fringes and put extra bodies in the backline. You can't have go forward ball if you can't secure possession. The backs can't function effectively on slow, static ball. Space is limited when the French defence has additional bodies and deploy an effective blitz. Chat of being more creative is just a misnomer, and as Notch has alluded, is based largely on provincial bias.

Ireland's biggest problem is the pack, and as far as I can tell, the lack of Plumtree. The pack have been too slow in clearing out rucks and mauls, and the lineout is significantly inferior. POM, while still playing decently, is well below last years level. SOB was the pick of the Irish forwards on Saturday but is playing his way to fitness. Ireland's best counter rucker, Ian Henderson, is on the bench. Best is off form. Ross isn't worthy of his place. Murphy isn't in Heaslip's class. McGrath is a clear step down from Healy. POC is showing his age.

Even if the pack was performing, Keatley's distribution was dreadful and his decision making poor. Sexton kicked well but otherwise was barely any better.

And even if none of that was true, why on earth would the coaching team let the world, and two World Cup group opponents, a potential QF and semi-final opponent, see all our moves? If you think Ireland will be all singing all dancing and showing their hand long before the World Cup to their opponents then you are utterly deluded.

In fairness we werent comitting too many players to the breakdown v France.

Guns, in the first half we didn't and we kept being tuned over. In the second it is noticeable how many people we were committing to the breakdown and how little the backrow were carrying the ball in wider positions.

Exiled Gael wrote:Guns, in the first half we didn't and we kept being tuned over. In the second it is noticeable how many people we were committing to the breakdown and how little the backrow were carrying the ball in wider positions.

Wayne Barnes was whistle happy at the breakdown as usual though. He blew up quicker than most refs IMO.

Ireland's penalty count when Barnes refs is always higher than our average. We conceded our most penalties under Schmidt v France.

In '09 v Wales in the grand slam decider Barnes awarded Wales 15 penalties and 6 to Ireland.

In the same fixture in 20112012 he killed Ireland with penalties again and failed to send Bradley Davies for a tip tackle on Ryan while penalising Ferris for a fair tackle on Ryan Jones to give Wales the win.

He also gave Ireland its last red card. Heaslip v NZ.

Aaahhh, I get it now. Some of us have been provincially biased and we are utterly deluded because its all a master plan of Schmidt's to risk loosing matches (and the 6N title) now in order not to show his hand before the World Cup.

Thanks Exiled Gael, that's cleared things up for this deluded person.

I don't think it's based on provincial bias but I do think it's crazy to be worried about the backs not being creative enough when the forwards aren't buying them the time and space to do anything- almost every single part of Irelands failure to score many tries comes down to deficiencies with how the forwards are currently playing and if you analyse the game then that becomes extremely obvious.

You want to kick away slow ball, or hit it up and try and generate momentum. Ireland wouldn't be improving their chances of winning if they decided to run off slow ball against organised defences, they would be making it less likely.

There's the odd misnomer which is all down to the backs, like Sexton flinging the ball at Paynes head, but mainly I think the back line has played well with some very poor ball.

So there is ground to criticise the team and how it's coached etc. It's just bemusing that you're focusing on the wrong area entirely. It's the breakdown that we should be focusing on.

Notch,

I recognise this issues at the breakdown but I also see that as a slight coaching (and injury induced) issue as well.

All I have been saying is that the backs are all more creative than they are being coached to be. During the Italy match, the room was created but the backs seemed very hesitant to take the chances on by means of taking the safety first option. Against France, it was a very physical battle up front but there were moments when Ireland looked to have a few chances to spread the ball and take the French on but again chose the safety first approach and as a result, were barley hanging on by the end of the match.

A few of us are just a little concerned about this approach that's all. I cant see any provincial bias here, just a general debate about Irelands prospects.

Notch, it all depends on whether you have a rationale understanding of 'creativity'. Surely to be deemed 'creative' you only have to create chances? That would be obvious. But you don't need so-called creative backs or expansive rugby to do so. Ireland functioned last year on an excellent kick chase game, aggressive forward counter rucking, quick ball, and a good set piece. They were the top try scorers (I think) in the tournament, surely they were creative? You can play horrible reductive Gatland ball an still be creative. If by creative you mean flashy running the ball from everywhere then I suggest people should support 1980s/1990s France.

I agree with you, the pack are not delivering quality ball for the backs to work with and we have had two poor performances from out halves. It's easy to see when you have two eyes and not one. All the chat of allowing creative players to play or picking alternatives is totally misplaced. Doesn't bare the weight of serious scrutiny. There is no platform delivered this far to judge the backline, especially not in two games.

Exiled Gael wrote:It is worth pointing out again that so much of this chat is based on an utterly false premise. Allowing 'creative players to attack' or playing 'heads up rugby' are meaningless soundbites of no relevance to Ireland's performances. It is hard to win matches when you have to throw all your forwards into the breakdown in order to shore up your own ball, allowing France to dedicate fewer resources to those areas and instead pack the fringes and put extra bodies in the backline. You can't have go forward ball if you can't secure possession. The backs can't function effectively on slow, static ball. Space is limited when the French defence has additional bodies and deploy an effective blitz. Chat of being more creative is just a misnomer, and as Notch has alluded, is based largely on provincial bias.

Ireland's biggest problem is the pack, and as far as I can tell, the lack of Plumtree. The pack have been too slow in clearing out rucks and mauls, and  the lineout is significantly inferior. POM, while still playing decently, is well below last years level. SOB was the pick of the Irish forwards on Saturday but is playing his way to fitness. Ireland's best counter rucker, Ian Henderson, is on the bench. Best is off form. Ross isn't worthy of his place. Murphy isn't in Heaslip's class. McGrath is a clear step down from Healy. POC is showing his age.

Even if the pack was performing, Keatley's distribution was dreadful and his decision making poor. Sexton kicked well but otherwise was barely any better.

And even if none of that was true, why on earth would the coaching team let the world, and two World Cup group opponents, a potential QF and semi-final opponent, see all our moves? If you think Ireland will be all singing all dancing and showing their hand long before the World Cup to their opponents then you are utterly deluded.

When you talk about the attacking pace of the game (or lack thereof) being dictated by the pack and their ability to get go-forward ball you expose the very weakness you say isn't so much a weakness at all.  You mention one man, Plumtree and then you list off a litany of players who you feel are either not performing as well as they might or are simply off-form.  

Well, there you go.  That's the area that has room to improve.  And BY IMPROVING, it can as a result add potential spark to 'creative players in attack' and 'heads up rugby'.

Why do you think some of us don't see a symbiotic relationship between the ability to have slinky backs do fireworks stuff on the fringes, or go slyly through the centre, and the need for a pack to function at a more clinical, aggressive and higher pace?  We all know backs can't do a thing unless they get the ball early enough to have space to work with.  I think we all appreciate the need for the momentum of a more aggressive attack 'plan' starts with the 'fatties'.

The issue is that right now that doesn't happen a lot.  We choose to do enough and then wait and defend  .
I'm prepared to admit that's more than likely design on the part of the coaches than a combined failing on the part of the forwards and backs.  So yes, it might be all hooded stealth stuff to keep anything more dynamic for later in the year. So be it - we can still question though whether that is indeed the truth or whether it's less organised and whether perhaps Schmidt indeed does have a headache making a more 'creative' gameplan materialise. Maybe Plumtree is missed and we're beginning to see the price paid.

If it is there in waiting, then you have to test the full package sometime.  And I suggest testing it during the world cup itself is probably a little late.  It has to be honed on the field in real tension games with something to fight for - not simply on the training field.

I'm not sure if 'creativity' is the word, but to me this 'creativity' is spotting a hole to run over them, not always trying to bludgeon the opposition, have players running good lines, switch backs, pace, good handling etc. I don't have a problem with the kick-n-chase as it really is a very skilfull piece of play.

Look at some of the Australian backs and how they play to get what I mean.
Ireland were the top try scorers with 16 with 7 of those against Italy.

Nachos Jones wrote:Notch,

I recognise this issues at the breakdown but I also see that as a slight coaching (and injury induced) issue as well.

All I have been saying is that the backs are all more creative than they are being coached to be. During the Italy match, the room was created but the backs seemed very hesitant to take the chances on by means of taking the safety first option. Against France, it was a very physical battle up front but there were moments when Ireland looked to have a few chances to spread the ball and take the French on but again chose the safety first approach and as a result, were barley hanging on by the end of the match.

A few of us are just a little concerned about this approach that's all. I cant see any provincial bias here, just a general debate about Irelands prospects.

Against Italy there was a game plan in place to open up the game in the last quarter and then it started pouring with rain just as soon as Ireland started to open up, result they shut right back down again. Italy is a good example of a game where the game plan just didn't work. Doesn't mean the game plan didn't make sense, but the width that we intended to generate in the last quarter just never came through and we didn't take them through the phases in the first three-quarters quickly enough to tire them out.

SecretFly wrote:

Exiled Gael wrote:It is worth pointing out again that so much of this chat is based on an utterly false premise. Allowing 'creative players to attack' or playing 'heads up rugby' are meaningless soundbites of no relevance to Ireland's performances. It is hard to win matches when you have to throw all your forwards into the breakdown in order to shore up your own ball, allowing France to dedicate fewer resources to those areas and instead pack the fringes and put extra bodies in the backline. You can't have go forward ball if you can't secure possession. The backs can't function effectively on slow, static ball. Space is limited when the French defence has additional bodies and deploy an effective blitz. Chat of being more creative is just a misnomer, and as Notch has alluded, is based largely on provincial bias.

Ireland's biggest problem is the pack, and as far as I can tell, the lack of Plumtree. The pack have been too slow in clearing out rucks and mauls, and  the lineout is significantly inferior. POM, while still playing decently, is well below last years level. SOB was the pick of the Irish forwards on Saturday but is playing his way to fitness. Ireland's best counter rucker, Ian Henderson, is on the bench. Best is off form. Ross isn't worthy of his place. Murphy isn't in Heaslip's class. McGrath is a clear step down from Healy. POC is showing his age.

Even if the pack was performing, Keatley's distribution was dreadful and his decision making poor. Sexton kicked well but otherwise was barely any better.

And even if none of that was true, why on earth would the coaching team let the world, and two World Cup group opponents, a potential QF and semi-final opponent, see all our moves? If you think Ireland will be all singing all dancing and showing their hand long before the World Cup to their opponents then you are utterly deluded.

When you talk about the attacking pace of the game (or lack thereof) being dictated by the pack and their ability to get go-forward ball you expose the very weakness you say isn't so much a weakness at all.  You mention one man, Plumtree and then you list off a litany of players who you feel are either not performing as well as they might or are simply off-form.  

Well, there you go.  That's the area that has room to improve.  And BY IMPROVING, it can as a result add potential spark to 'creative players in attack' and 'heads up rugby'.

Why do you think some of us don't see a symbiotic relationship between the ability to have slinky backs do fireworks stuff on the fringes, or go slyly through the centre, and the need for a pack to function at a more clinical, aggressive and higher pace?  We all know backs can't do a thing unless they get the ball early enough to have space to work with.  I think we all appreciate the need for the momentum of a more aggressive attack 'plan' starts with the 'fatties'.

The issue is that right now that doesn't happen a lot.  We choose to do enough and then wait and defend  .
I'm prepared to admit that's more than likely design on the part of the coaches than a combined failing on the part of the forwards and backs.  So yes, it might be all hooded stealth stuff to keep anything more dynamic for later in the year. So be it - we can still question though whether that is indeed the truth or whether it's less organised and whether perhaps Schmidt indeed does have a headache making a more 'creative' gameplan materialise.  Maybe Plumtree is missed and we're beginning to see the price paid.

If it is there in waiting, then you have to test the full package sometime.  And I suggest testing it during the world cup itself is probably a little late.  It has to be honed on the field in real tension games with something to fight for - not simply on the training field.

I would agree with a lot of this, Fly, whilst not disagreeing with the points that Exiled is making.

I think it's a fair assumption that neither Schmidt, nor any of the 6 Nations coaches, are going to show all of their hand in this tournament.   In looking at what Schmidt is doing currently, it seems to me that he's getting the team to do the basic, bare minimum in managing the game in sometimes, very tough circumstances, and still winning.   Ireland had to show a little bit more devil against South Africa in keeping the scoreboard moving, but the kick-chase game using garryowens (or Jakeball as the SH fans sometimes describe it) and very focussed defending is pretty effective so far.  

The England game may require a bit more, particularly if Lancaster gets focussed on defeating/neutralising the kick-chase.  And I think that England will get one or two tries.

The 6N is a competition to be won and I think that Schmidt is firmly focussed on winning it (whilst giving away as little as is necessary).  So is Lancaster.  PSA and Gatland maybe less so.    

I think Schmidt wants to win the Championship 'by any means necessary' and then probably use the warm-up games to do some more tweaking and development.

Fly, I'm not really sure how what you said is different from me, except with more flowery chat and wonky smily faces, which naturally I enjoy.

The forwards aren't performing. That's the bottom line. Could be coaching, I suspect it has a large impact as we have seriously regressed since last year. Plus injuries. It's not that Schmidt is choosing them not to perform, they just aren't for a number of reasons. Get better quality ball, then we can judge the backs. But we could be more 'creative' by playing more accurate 10 man rugby. Creative does not equate to exciting or free flowing rugby. Even with the best will in the world, if Schmidt wanted to play earth shattering back play he couldn't do it as the pack is second best and the quality of ball is poor and the 9/10 distribution (mostly from Keatley/ Sexton) has been woeful.

Leaving aside the performance, the result was massive. Ireland don't beat France that often. They only beat France once at home in the previous 12 years!

The French hoodoo over Ireland is fading now. Going into the world cup match, France will not have beaten Ireland in their last 4 attempts. That means many of this generation of Irish players won't have experienced losing to France while many of the French have never beaten Ireland. Thats the type of thing that plays on players' minds and is massive.

I would say the following players from saturdays squad have never tasted defeat to France.
McGrath, Ross, Toner, POM, Murray, Zebo, Henshaw, Payne, Moore, Henderson, J Murphy, Madigan, Jones

In contrast most of the French team in the world cup will have never beaten Ireland.


Having said that, its more about Ireland's belief than anything else. Amazing to think that before 2009 6 nations, BOD had only 2 celtic league medals to show for his career despite being 30 years old. There was a lack of belief in the side that was hard to shake off. Thats gone now. Ireland are winning and closing out tight games regularly and every time they do it confidence grows. The last match they blew from a winning positon was NZ and that again was mainly down to not believing they could win.

Jeez its like having your postmortem done premortom so to speak...

you guys probably already read this, but this is a top piece of analysis on Irish defense.

http://www.the42.ie/analysis-ireland-defence-france-1943808-Feb2015/

You know a smile always comes to my face when I look down the thread list in the morning and remember all the intricate waffle of the previous day about all sorts (including me in the notable list of wafflers BTW! - I'm not trying to evade blame here)
...but I always smile when I see that whocares has left a post.

His name always seems so appropriate to just how I feel right then.................. until at least I let out a big sigh, put on my combats, zip up my flak jacket, put on my helmet and delve my toes once again into the 606 battles of the ages.

whocares wrote:you guys probably already read this, but this is a top piece of analysis on Irish defense.

http://www.the42.ie/analysis-ireland-defence-france-1943808-Feb2015/

Burn that link or else suffer the consequences with a visit by the Irish secret service. That there info is Classified National Info not for the eyes of the English.

SecretFly wrote:...but I always smile when I see that whocares has left a post.

on another note Papé got a 10 week ban (which seems fair) so out for the rest of the 6N. quite looking forward a a new lock partnership now!

Will Barnes get a poor report for getting it wrong on the pitch?