Just not good enough!! Eng - Italy

Ok yes a win is a win, but that performance was beyond poor.
The injury and reshuffle did disrupt but we can't use that as an excuse, missed tackles, some so backs a mini player would have made them.
Turn over work was shocking, yes the ref was worse than useless policing it(more on that later), so what to our players do just sit back and let it happen, everyone wanted nice big runs rather than get their hands dirty making secure ball.

Right the ref.
If he is the best Ireland have to offer then the development needs looking at, and if that is the standard that the pro 12 have to offer I feel sorry for you.
The inconsistency was astounding the wrong calls bordering on pure failing of any rational thought process.
He was beyond poor and sould be told to watch and explain his decision making process.

Jonny may!
The untouchable winger
Nope drop him, and drop him far.......yes he's fast but he cost England at least two try's with his cutting in and jinxing on the spot, as well as doing nothing of note to stop the third Italian try. He's not got it at this level full stop

If you are going to have a whine at the ref, at least give examples of what you mean.

I don't think they played as badly as you say, we certainly need to look at our first 10 minutes etc.

Against SH teams we could be 20 down by the time we click in to gear

May is fine...he had a poor game but will be better next time out.

God help the deity's that are Joseph and Watson when they have one bad game...

GeordieFalcon wrote:May is fine...he had a poor game but will be better next time out.

God help the deity's that are Joseph and Watson when they have one bad game...

Not really same. May has overall looked average with the odd moment of class but a lot more crap.

It is the same hammer

It happens with every new player who comes in to the England side.

They're built up to the heavens then because they don't do the firework stuff they are subsequently deemed rubbish and should be dropped.

GeordieFalcon wrote:It is the same hammer

It happens with every new player who comes in to the England side.

They're built up to the heavens then because they don't do the firework stuff they are subsequently deemed rubbish and should be dropped.

Do have to agree with you there.

nathan wrote:If you are going to have a whine at the ref, at least give examples of what you mean.

I don't think they played as badly as you say, we certainly need to look at our first 10 minutes etc.

Against SH teams we could be 20 down by the time we click in to gear

Ok Nathan
Can't remember which England player it was, but they knocked on in the tackle and a Haskell picked up from offside position, resulting in an Italian pen. Italy on the attack near the end player tackled and knocked on after hitting the ground, Italian player from an offside position picked it up, result England free kick.

Italian player deliberately knocks in in middle of park, result England pen. Italian player deliberately knocked on two yards from the line, result Italy scrum!!

As well as his overall officiating was poor not pulling Italy up on players not rolling away of interfering with the scrum half or the ball most of the game, but was quick to ping England for not rolling away or hands in

Tbh I think you've over reacting. That second knock on was thrown from and English player literally into the hands of the Italian player who dropped it. As far as I remember it was a England scrum

HammerofThunor wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:May is fine...he had a poor game but will be better next time out.

God help the deity's that are Joseph and Watson when they have one bad game...

Not really same. May has overall looked average with the odd moment of class but a lot more crap.

May has been average every game, but is still living off that NZ try, he cuts inside every time, this cost us a three on one overlap today. If this was Ashton effigys would be being burnt and rope swung over a tree out side hq.

No idea who can come in though so he will stay by default

nathan wrote:Tbh I think you've over reacting. That second knock on was thrown from and English player literally into the hands of the Italian player who dropped it. As far as I remember it was a England scrum

Still a deliver knock on as he only had one hand out and slapped in down.
It was an Italian scrum but we turned it and got the feed

What's a "deliver knock on" ?

Slightly less tasty than delamb knock on

Eh ?

Knackeredknees wrote:

nathan wrote:Tbh I think you've over reacting. That second knock on was thrown from and English player literally into the hands of the Italian player who dropped it. As far as I remember it was a England scrum

Still a deliver knock on as he only had one hand out and slapped in down.
It was an Italian scrum but we turned it and got the feed

He used both hands to try and catch it!

Italy knocked on a yard from the line, the Italian player had overrun and was in front of the tackled player. He picked up and placed it over the line. Clear penalty to England, ref............ scrum Italy.

Agree with Knackeredknees (name sounds just like my knees feel) ref was VERY poor today, let the Italians get away with murder at the breakdown. I can only remember one penalty when their player rolled slowly over knocking Youngs down in the process.

The amount of running interference and taking players out off the ball was possibly the worst I have seen for some time, by both sides. None of it picked up or penalised.

Ref needs to go back to ref school or go back to officiating at 3rds matches.

I thought that a deliberate knock on was a yellow card offence, Italy did it at least twice, one the ref even saw and gave a penalty for...................

Re just not good enough?

Al though i understand what you mean England was not good enough against Italy (BUT) I thn'k that by saying that you are disrespecting Italy. Italy Put England under kiind's of pressure.

England will have to be a lot better when they meet Ireland in the next game.

Still played 2 won 2 so far so good.

majesticimperialman wrote:Re just not good enough?

Al though i understand what you mean England was not good enough against Italy (BUT) I thn'k that by saying that you are  disrespecting Italy. Italy Put England under kiind's of pressure.

England will have to be a lot better when they meet Ireland in the next game.

Still played 2 won 2 so far so good.

No disrespect to Italy, they had a plan to not turn it into an arm wrestle as they knew they would lose.
But with a combination of below poor tackling from England and some very beneficial referring in their favor. And they need to get a reliable or at least a player who can kick more than 1 in 10

The ref was pants. Too many wrong calls to list. At one point he was so bad I thought he must be cheating. IRB need to look at his performance in detail.

I did think that when the Italian FH rolled out of the ruck taking Youngs out that could have been a card. It was very clumsy.

The ref did threaten Italy with a card over the ruck stuff but he didnt follow that up when they kept offending

GeordieFalcon wrote:It is the same hammer

It happens with every new player who comes in to the England side.

They're built up to the heavens then because they don't do the firework stuff they are subsequently deemed rubbish and should be dropped.

No it's not. May has never looked more than average for England, other than the odd individual event in a game (not the odd good game). Both Joseph and Watson have looked good for entire games. May didn't burst onto the scene and dazzle everyone, only to fall out of our good graces. He looked ok, that's it. Not really different to Twelvetrees. You seem to be guilty of exactly the same thing you accuse his fans of. Ignoring the bad and indifferent and focusing on the good.

England were fine. Nothing to be worried about. Wrong tactics initially, and a confidence in scoring points led to conacency in defense. Bookies margin was 100% spot on.

Have not seen anything from the rest of the sides to trouble us if we play well. And vs France and Ireland the game won't be approached the same way as vs Italy.

Ref let too much go in the 2nd half, but he wasn't terrible.

I don't think any of the sides have it their stride fully yet we haven't seen a good solid 80 from any of them yet and unfortunately from a Welsh POV I am not expecting to see one tomorrow either.

HammerofThunor wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:It is the same hammer

It happens with every new player who comes in to the England side.

They're built up to the heavens then because they don't do the firework stuff they are subsequently deemed rubbish and should be dropped.

No it's not. May has never looked more than average for England, other than the odd individual event in a game (not the odd good game). Both Joseph and Watson have looked good for entire games. May didn't burst onto the scene and dazzle everyone, only to fall out of our good graces. He looked ok, that's it. Not really different to Twelvetrees.  You seem to be guilty of exactly the same thing you accuse his fans of. Ignoring the bad and indifferent and focusing on the good.

No bother...

Referee was fine.

May was not the only winger to mess up when failing to stop a try.

LondonTiger wrote:Referee was fine.

May was not the only winger to mess up when failing to stop a try.

I could be wrong, but i think the trouble with May is he need's to change his boots. he keeps slipping over is he using those (ski like) studs.

Or proper studs?

LondonTiger wrote:Referee was fine.

May was not the only winger to mess up when failing to stop a try.

LT, where you watching the same game I was? The ref was below poor, not biased in any way just very poor. No idea of what was happening at the breakdown. Allowing all sorts of shenanigans off the ball, holding players back, obstruction, being on the wrong side for what seemed like minutes before rolling away, deliberate knock ons given, no YC, deliberate slowing down of the ball, falling over the ball off their feet....................... I could go on.

I genuinely thought it was one of the poorest reffing performances I have seen for a very long time.

He was consistent, which is fine by me. i was more annoyed at how long it took England to realise that when he called "ruck formed" he wanted hands off the ball.

LondonTiger wrote:He was consistent, which is fine by me. i was more annoyed at how long it took England to realise that when he called "ruck formed" he wanted hands off the ball.

England have always been slow to adapt to the ref. Last week it took them 40 minutes.

LondonTiger wrote:He was consistent, which is fine by me. i was more annoyed at how long it took England to realise that when he called "ruck formed" he wanted hands off the ball.

It is OK unless a ruck clearly has not been formed. He struck me as suffering from Chris Pollock syndrome. This is a delusion that somewhere in the rules it says the attacking team have the right to get the ball back without a contest. The syndrome is thought to be brought on by watching Rugby League.

To be fair to Lacey based on Wayne Barnes' performance in Dublin he has a far more advanced case.

Exiledinborders wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:He was consistent, which is fine by me. i was more annoyed at how long it took England to realise that when he called "ruck formed" he wanted hands off the ball.

It is OK unless a ruck clearly has not been formed. He struck me as suffering from Chris Pollock syndrome. This is a delusion that somewhere in the rules it says the attacking team have the right to get the ball back without a contest. The syndrome is thought to be brought on by watching Rugby League.

To be fair to Lacey based on Wayne Barnes' performance in Dublin he has a far more advanced case.

I think there is a disease going around the international refs circuit, Barnes and Owens used to be two of the best refs in the world, these days they are average to say the least.

I've become rather fond of Italian Rugby. They don't have huge resources and have to compete with football for attention but they've become  a hard side to break down even when 30 points behind. That takes some grit. Ireland last week didn't have an easy game. So I don't really go with the England played dreadfully line, I think Italy have become very good at making it difficult for other sides, especially sides they play every year in the 6Ns.

That said we didn't have a great game. Pretty much everyone looked a little under par, except Joseph. England Wales in Cardiff has a always been a big game. It hasn't got any smaller. I think there's no doubt there was a reaction to that in the Italy game, despite everyone knowing it could happen.

Like the look of their new centre (Misi? Something like that). Twice he cut through us, leaving at least three English players sprawling on the turf in his wake. Once looks like bad defence. Twice looks more like a very elusive runner.

Cowshot, Morisi is the guys name. Looks like good one for the future until a French club picks him up, pays him a fortune to sit on the bench whilst a kiwi or saffer plays and gives him 10 minutes a week of game time which will result in him going backwards for Italy

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Cowshot, Morisi is the guys name. Looks like good one for the future until a French club picks him up, pays him a fortune to sit on the bench whilst a kiwi or saffer plays and gives him 10 minutes a week of game time which will  result in him going backwards for Italy

...in a nutshell...hope not. Would be a waste of what looks to be considerable talent.

I was really disappointed with the forward effort in terms of workrate and effectiveness, nowhere near enough focus or urgency.  Marler put in a good shift around the park, but the rest were average or poor by their usual standards.  That Attwood & Kruis missed 7 tackles between themselves just isn't acceptable.  Haskell needs to get himself round the pitch more, he doesn't track play enough like his backrow partners do, he needs to be involved at more breakdowns, he shouldn't be being outworked by his no.8 in the hard graft.  It's also the second week that he's been notably out-tackled by Robshaw & Vunipola, Easter made more tackles in his 30 mins than Haskell did in over twice his time on the pitch.

Against Ireland's defence and speed & precision at the breakdown the squad will really have to up their intensity and determination to run themselves into the ground supporting every aspect of play if they're to stand a good chance in Dublin.

knackeredknees it didn't need an outstanding performance - hopefully England are leaving something in the locker for when they face Ireland.

47-17 is a comfortable victory - perhaps it does flatter England but 6 tries is still nice.

hawalsh wrote:I was really disappointed with the forward effort in terms of workrate and effectiveness, nowhere near enough focus or urgency.  Marler put in a good shift around the park, but the rest were average or poor by their usual standards.  That Attwood & Kruis missed 7 tackles between themselves just isn't acceptable.  Haskell needs to get himself round the pitch more, he doesn't track play enough like his backrow partners do, he needs to be involved at more breakdowns, he shouldn't be being outworked by his no.8 in the hard graft.  It's also the second week that he's been notably out-tackled by Robshaw & Vunipola, Easter made more tackles in his 30 mins than Haskell did in over twice his time on the pitch.

Against Ireland's defence and speed & precision at the breakdown the squad will really have to up their intensity and determination to run themselves into the ground supporting every aspect of play if they're to stand a good chance in Dublin.

I agree with all of this Hawalsh. Especially the point about Haskell being outplayed by Vunipola in defence. I prefer Morgan as our starting 8, but if there's one thing Vunipola does better it is his choke tackling. He's really impressed me there. But Haskell does need to be more busy. I thought his carrying in the tight was very good again, but he lacked in other aspects of his game. 

Mentioning Attwood and Kruis- I think they've both done a great job of slotting into the England side and each have played very well. Attwood has given us some grunt going forward and his lineout, maul, and ruck work is superb. My one criticism of him? He is occasionally lazy in defence. As a lock forward he should have been dominating the area when Italy crossed for their first try. He had Brown and May to help out, as well as the touchline to defend an area no more than 5 meters in width? He lacked intensity and was found wanting.

It is an unusual feeling to be somewhat discontent after a 30 point win and putting nearly 50 points on the opposition, while running in 6 tries. Obviously, Joseph's two tries were outstanding, Cipirani's came from a good flowing move and Billy V's try was a well worked set move. Add in one try from a good forward rumble and one from a opportunistic scrum half against a sleeping opponent and it looks good.

The negativity is of course from blowing a couple of chances (May and the subsequent line-out drives at the end of the first half) and defending that seemed to suggest tackling was optional at times. The biggest concern really is that again we were behind on the scoreboard very early, and were lucky not to be further behind after the sequence of play where Brown was injured - had it been a better ball player than Castro that took the ball on after Masi's kick recovery, Italy could have been over again.

I'm slightly less concerned with the defensive performance in the 2nd half - we had established a pretty good lead and the intensity clearly dropped off. It will certainly not be that lax in Dublin in 2 weeks.

I think the issue is that it was not a very England-like performance, in playing with intensity for 80 minutes. There was more flair and opportunism - I keep thinking it was much more like a traditional France performance than an England one...

One moment of brilliance doesn't make up for continual lack of test rugby nouse by May.

Heard Greenwood say he thinks they'll play 36 at 12 for Ireland game regardless of who is fit to give England a better kicking option.

Sounds like May should be the one dropped then.

Youngs
Ford
Joseph
Twelvetrees
Burrell
Watson
Brown

If Brown is out I guess Watson will go 15 and May will stay in the side.

England have better players than may mind.

Different mentality completely mind so I wouldn't read too much into it game wise.

nathan wrote:If you are going to have a whine at the ref, at least give examples of what you mean.

I don't think they played as badly as you say, we certainly need to look at our first 10 minutes etc.

Against SH teams we could be 20 down by the time we click in to gear

To be honest he was probably better than Wayne Barnes whose approach to refereeing is idiosyncratic to say the least.

GunsGerms wrote:

nathan wrote:If you are going to have a whine at the ref, at least give examples of what you mean.

I don't think they played as badly as you say, we certainly need to look at our first 10 minutes etc.

Against SH teams we could be 20 down by the time we click in to gear

To be honest he was probably better than Wayne Barnes whose approach to refereeing is idiosyncratic to say the least.

No he wasn't. Barnes was far better, he had a great match.

Knackeredknees wrote:Ok yes a win is a win, but that performance was beyond poor.
The injury and reshuffle did disrupt but we can't use that as an excuse, missed tackles, some so backs a mini player would have made them.
Turn over work was shocking, yes the ref was worse than useless policing it(more on that later), so what to our players do just sit back and let it happen, everyone wanted nice big runs rather than get their hands dirty making secure ball.

Right the ref.
If he is the best Ireland have to offer then the development needs looking at, and if that is the standard that the pro 12 have to offer I feel sorry for you.
The inconsistency was astounding the wrong calls bordering on pure failing of any rational thought process.
He was beyond poor and sould be told to watch and explain his decision making process.

Jonny may!
The untouchable winger
Nope drop him, and drop him far.......yes he's fast but he cost England at least two try's with his cutting in and jinxing on the spot, as well as doing nothing of note to stop the third Italian try. He's not got it at this level full stop

Think we were fine, cruised to an easy victory. Sloppy defence but good attack and if Morisi had been another player, Italy would have offered nothing at all. Overreaction